Governing through Reason
More On Osama
Naturally, the web is alive today with the sound of Osama bin Laden. Slate Magazine has a particularly good set of stories-behind-the-story (as it often does).
- Slate Explainer describes in greater detail what is really meant by his “burial at sea.”
- William Saletan outlines eight interesting questions, yet to be answered, surrounding his death.
- Daniel Byman pontificates on the future of al Qaeda in a post-bin Laden world.
- Christopher Hitchens takes his usual hawkish view on Osama.
- Anne Applebaum points out that it was finesse and intelligence, not brute force, that took him out.
- John Dickerson says much the same, though from the perspective of how it affects the public view of President Obama.
And there’s plenty more being said in the articles below.
Related Articles
- Osama Bin Laden Pronounced Dead…For the Ninth Time (usapartisan.com)
- Osama bin Laden Sold Condoms, Among Other Things (adweek.com)
- Footage From Inside Osama Bin Laden’s Compound Emerges [VIDEO] (mashable.com)
- Follow live tweets about death of Osama bin Laden (pennlive.com)
- Osama, finally dead (wolfofthesteppes.wordpress.com)
- Morning Links — Stars React to Osama Bin Laden’s Death (popsugar.com)
- World reacts on Twitter to Osama Bin Laden’s death (news-briefs.ew.com)
- “Kill Osama,” Special Forces Team Ordered (kymkemp.com)
- DNA Evidence Confirms That Osama bin Laden Is Dead (blippitt.com)
- Osama bin Laden Has Been Killed; President Obama Announces Osama bin Laden has be Killed (sugarslam.com)
- On Osama’s DNA testing and burial at sea (shortformblog.tumblr.com)
- “Osama Bin Laden Body Headed for Burial at Sea, Officials Say” and related posts (blogs.abcnews.com)
- What Osama bin Laden Means for the Markets (benzinga.com)
- Osama Bin Duped (petemann.wordpress.com)
- Osama Bin Laden Dead — Top Search On Google (seroundtable.com)
- I am Proud to Be An American. We Got Him. We Killed Osama Bin Laden. (hipsterrunoff.com)
- Osama bin Laden Killed in Pakistan (538refugees.com)
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#2 written by Monotreme 2 years ago
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#3 written by WA7th 2 years ago
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#4 written by Monotreme 2 years ago
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#5 written by Monotreme 2 years ago
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#6 written by Monotreme 2 years ago
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#7 written by Turrboenvy 2 years ago
I think one thing you can’t call it is politics. Some are suggesting that either the raid or the announcement were politically driven, but that doesn’t make sense. A bump now does not help Obama significantly in 2012. If he were looking for electoral gain from this, it would’ve happened or been announced sometime next year.
Plain and simple…
SEAL: We have the shot.
Obama: Take it. -
#8 written by Monotreme 2 years ago
I agree with you, turrboenvy, except for the birth certificate announcement Saturday (seems a lifetime ago, doesn’t it?).
I think that was, pure and simple, a tactic to divert press attention away from what was going on in Abbottabad. Also, they probably flogged the Libya story behind the scenes a little bit, again to divert attention away from goings-on in AfPak.
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#9 written by mclever 2 years ago
@Monotreme
Yes, the timing of the birth certificate release does look suspicious in retrospect, eh? Coinciding roughly with the same time he gets the actionable intelligence? A ripe distraction for the Press to keep their noses out of Pakistan. Then, the follow-up news on Osama guarantees that the birth certificate isn’t belabored for too long, making his “we don’t have time for this silliness” remarks even more pointed.
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And, right on cue, we have an Osama denier. Glad we didn’t have to wait too long for this shoe (bomber?) to drop.
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#11 written by shiloh 2 years ago
SEAL Team Six is stationed out of Dam Neck, Va. Beach. ~ my duty station as a data systems tech from ’85 to ’88. Six degrees of separation
You could usually tell who they were ’cause they stuck together as a group and some of them had long hair. And of course they “practice” w/live ammo. I digress … -
#12 written by filistro 2 years ago
I’ve been away all afternoon, just catching up… apologies if somebody has already posted this, or if it’s in that link pile above, but I find it incredibly riveting. It’s a photo of the White House staff watching the attack unfold.
As Daniel Foster says… “wish the camera had been pointed in the opposite direction.…”
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#13 written by mclever 2 years ago
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#14 written by mclever 2 years ago
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#15 written by filistro 2 years ago
Monotreme… sorry for the gruesomeness but I’ve been wondering all day… is there something particularly lethal about shooting someone through the left eye? Would it be the marksman’s target of choice?
I guess what I’m wondering is… in the midst of trauma, noise, confusion, gunfire, blood and terror… how awesomely accurate was that shot?
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#16 written by Monotreme 2 years ago
Any head shot tends to be lethal. I would imagine, though I don’t know, that you are using laser-guided weapons and so it gives you something lethal to aim for. Between the eyes would work well, also.
If using a laser-guided scope, aiming for the eye would have the additional advantage of blinding your opponent. They say he had a weapon and resisted, although they would say that.
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#17 written by maxakabirdpilot 2 years ago
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#18 written by shiloh 2 years ago
Spock’s Vulcan nerve pinch and death grip were also quite lethal!
Beam me up Scotty, bin Laden has just bought the farm …
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#19 written by Monotreme 2 years ago
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#20 written by Monotreme 2 years ago
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#21 written by maxakabirdpilot 2 years ago
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#22 written by filistro 2 years ago
The happiest man in America today…
..a middle-school science teacher who vowed after 9⁄11 not to shave his beard until Osama bin Laden was killed or captured.
“I thought it would just be a matter of weeks, maybe months,” he told reporters.
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#23 written by GROG 2 years ago
My chest has always swelled with pride to be an American, but last night was the proudest I have ever been of my country. We are still the greatest nation the world has ever seen. We can do anything we set our mind to.
We have the greatest military, military forces, and intelligence in the world. No one rivals us.
I can’t explain the admiration I have for the Navy Seals and what they did. I get chills every time I think about it.
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#25 written by filistro 2 years ago
@GROG… I can’t explain the admiration I have for the Navy Seals and what they did. I get chills every time I think about it.
Bless you, my dear friend
I feel exactly the same way, and have all day. It felt today like the sun was a little warmer, the air a little sweeter, the trees a little greener.
For Canadians, it’s been a lonely, scary ten years. Our strong, capable, brave, marvelous big brother was gone, and this kind of hesitant, shadowy erratic guy was in his place. Now it’s like our quiet, competent big brother… the one who can do anything and always looks after everybody… he’s BACK!!
Canadians all over my little city are flying American flags from their front porches and grinning when they greet each other. It’s just wonderful.
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#27 written by shiloh 2 years ago
SEAL Team Six reminds me of a scene from Rambo:
Trautman: I’m just amazed he allowed any of your posse to live.
Teasle: Is that right?
Trautman: Strictly speaking, he slipped up. You’re lucky to be breathing.
Teasle: That’s just great. Colonel, you came out here to find out why one of your machines blew a gasket!
Trautman: You don’t seem to want to accept the fact you’re dealing with an expert in guerrilla warfare, with a man who’s the best, with guns, with knives, with his bare hands. A man who’s been trained to ignore pain, ignore weather, to live off the land, to eat things that would make a billy goat puke. In Vietnam his job was to dispose of enemy personnel. To kill! Period! Win by attrition. Well Rambo was the best.
~~~~~>
btw, isn’t it great having a president who knows how to “multitask” in multiple crisis situations …
Even Limbaugh said something nice about Obama today ~ gasp!
‘Thank God For President Obama’
When Limbaugh is taking his meds he can actually act like a human being.
p.s. my 1st attempt at embedding
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#28 written by filistro 2 years ago
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#30 written by shiloh 2 years ago
When an imbedding fails, usually the parameters are too large for said video ie height/width.
The Limbaugh video was width=‘320’ height=‘240’ so not sure what went wrong. Also not sure you are able to imbed here as fili deletes her post.
Come on, shiloh… you have to learn how so you can teach me!
Life is a continual learning process …
carry on
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#31 written by Teevagirl 2 years ago
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#32 written by parksie555 2 years ago
Agree Obama certainly deserves credit…
To me the two big decisions that were in his hands and made correctly…
a) Not to bomb the compound, but to send in a Special Forces-type operation and make sure of the kill
b) To keep the Pakis out of the loop until the mission was complete (or maybe just as it began) and not dither over whether the operation would ruffle their feathers.
It will be very interesting to see the direction that the US-Pak relationship goes in the next few weeks/months. Quite a few red faces on their side of the table at this point, I would imagine.
But certainly a job well done by Obama and of course the various assets involved in this mission. It was a courageous decision by Obama to order a mission like this that could have gone very wrong very quickly.
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#33 written by filistro 2 years ago
@parksie… But certainly a job well done by Obama and of course the various assets involved in this mission. It was a courageous decision by Obama to order a mission like this that could have gone very wrong very quickly.
See, that’s why we all like you so much, parksie. It takes a stand-up guy to give credit where it’s due… even when it goes to his political opponent. (Some people can never bring themselves to do it.) Your fairness is always impressive.
I guess the big political question now is about The Bounce.
How big will it be, and how long will it last?From the article I linked above…
With the exception of the post-9/11 bump, presidential bounces for major national security events average about 13 percentage points and last for four to five months, according to Republican pollster Bill McInturff of Public Opinion Strategies.
Anybody want to place their wagers right here? What will Obama’s approval rating be on Gallup’s daily by May 10, a week from now? Today he’s at 46… I predict 10 points.
56%.
Other bets?
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#34 written by filistro 2 years ago
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#35 written by mclever 2 years ago
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#37 written by filistro 2 years ago
Mac… you express the conundrum well.
My mind tells me those “naysayers” will never be silenced (after years of clamoring for the president’s long-form birth certificate, they now dismiss it as a “clumsy forgery”) so releasing the photos would endanger assets in the field (and soldiers on the ground) while accomplishing little.
But my heart tells me that after ten years of terrible suffering, Americans NEED to see those photos.
So… I don’t know.
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#38 written by Monotreme 2 years ago
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#39 written by parksie555 2 years ago
So here’s a question for my friends on the left…
Given that key actionable intelligence on Bin Laden’s location came from “enhanced interrogation techniques” carried out at a CIA “black site” prison in 2005*…
Do you now see the necessity for these techniques as employed by the Bush/Cheney national security team? And are you willing to give this team at least some of the credit for this operation?
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#40 written by filistro 2 years ago
Maybe not, parksie…
From AP yesterday:
One courier in particular had our constant attention. Detainees gave us his nom de guerre or his nickname and identified him as both a protégé of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind of September 11th, and a trusted assistant of Abu Faraj al-Libbi, the former number three of al Qaeda who was captured in 2005.
Detainees also identified this man as one of the few al Qaeda couriers trusted by bin Laden. They indicated he might be living with and protecting bin Laden. But for years, we were unable to identify his true name or his location.
Four years ago, we uncovered his identity.…
But then today the AP updated the story yet again, adding this crucial detail.
Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic.
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#41 written by filistro 2 years ago
Effective or not, I have always hated the utilitarian argument that “It works, so we should do it.”
I suppose it would highly effective to torture somebody’s four-year old in front of them. You could get all kinds of good intel that way. Should it be done?
Or in broader sense… What shall it benefit a nation if it accomplish all its intelligence goals… but lose its own soul?
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#42 written by mclever 2 years ago
parksie,
There apparently are conflicting accounts. Your information (from WaPo) differs from what I’ve seen on the AP and in other sources.
From what I’ve read, the pertinent information regarding the courier was revealed during standard interrogation and not via torture or “enhanced” techniques. From reading various expert opinions of the efficacy of torture that indicate the information produced under torture is less reliable than information produced using standard techniques, I am inclined to trust the accounts that say the information was revealed without waterboarding or other “enhanced” techniques.
Even if the information were produced under torture, there is no counter-proof that the suspect wouldn’t have yielded the same information without resorting to inhumane methods on the part of the interrogators. So, whether the information was actually produced under waterboarding or months later won’t change my mind.
I oppose torturing prisoners for a variety of ethical reasons. We cede the moral high ground if we stoop to using inhumane methods, which makes it easier for us to be painted as the villains and enhances our enemies’ recruitment efforts. Thinking pragmatically, if we torture people, then that puts our own soldiers and captured civilians at greater risk of retaliatory torture by those groups we fight against. If we don’t torture, then we can righteously decry those methods if they are used by our enemies, but we can’t really demand that they stop if we do the same thing or worse.
So, regardless of how the actionable information on Osama bin Laden may have been obtained, I stand by my objection to torture as a means of interrogating prisoners.
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Also a new poll from CNN
The CNN poll finds no appreciable bump in overall approval. Approval of how he handles Afganistan and terrorism both jumped 7 points, but that’s a comparison over nearly four months (the last time they polled on those two topics was in January).
But those polled are far more confident that he’ll be reëlected.
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#45 written by shiloh 2 years ago
Given that key actionable intelligence on Bin Laden’s location came from “enhanced interrogation techniques” carried out at a CIA “black site” prison in 2005*…
As fili mentioned, this has been proven not to be true, or at least there are conflicting sources … and it’s interesting conservatives are now “hangin’ their hat” on info from that diabolical liberal rag, The Washington Post.
Much like conservatives are still yelling “but, but, but Carter/Clinton”, conservatives are still trying to apologize/rationalize for cheney/bush.
Again, the more things change, the more they stay the same …
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#46 written by shiloh 2 years ago
But those polled are far more confident that he’ll be reëlected.
Again, presidential elections come down to choices and the power of incumbency is huge! Stature, name recognition, likability, $$$ and the known versus the unknown.
2012 is looking more and more like 1996 ie conservatives take over the House and also several governorships where said Rep governor’s approval ratings are now tanking for various reasons. And of course the Reps bench is bare!
Speaking of Carter, he ran for (2) years to be president ie name recognition, whereas if Republicans nominate a relative unknown at the last minute ie Christie, Daniels, etc. there will be less time to frame/elaborate on said candidate. And (if) Obama raises the huge “expected” amount of $$$ he will be doing the framing and elaboration on the Rep nominee.
Again, I will be very, very surprised if the Rep nominee is not mittens, despite all his “conservative” problems, flip/floppiness and lack of a pulse er charisma.
>
McCain had to do a 180 from his 2000 campaign to get the 2008 Rep nomination and mittens will take the same path, flip/flopping like there’s no tomorrow lol.
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#47 written by dcpetterson 2 years ago
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#48 written by dcpetterson 2 years ago
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#50 written by filistro 2 years ago
This is almost spooky… look how closely Obama’s approval ratings have tracked with Reagan’s first term.
And right now… May of the third year.. is exactly when Reagan’s approvals started to track upward and never came down again. It’s like… cosmic, or something. Almost scary. …shiver…
Shiloh (or any other political historians out there)… just curious, did the Dems have as much trouble fielding a slate of candidates against Reagan after his first term as the GOP are now in finding folks to go up against Obama?
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#51 written by shiloh 2 years ago
’84 was always going to be the coronation of Carter lite ie Mondale, who picked Ferraro as v-p, the icing on the cake of doom lol.
Interesting many folk thought John Glenn would gain traction w/the release of The Right Stuff in 1983, but alas, Glenn had no charisma.
btw, I’m not a historian, but know a lot about presidential trivia. Again, one doesn’t have to be a rocket scientist to figure out presidential politics, which isn’t all that complicated.
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#52 written by filistro 2 years ago
Thanks, shiloh.
Ramesh Ponnuru thinks Mitch Daniels is on the verge of declaring. (Ramesh reports from a meeting with Daniels just today.)
I think the Osama takedown has changed the whole dynamic. The GOP now practically HAS to run a grownup against Obama, who is suddenly looking very grownup indeed. (This does boost the profile of a guy like Daniels.)
Unfortunately it’s doubtful any real grownup (including Mitch Daniels) can make it through the primaries, where the super-empowered base is waiting and slavering like a bunch of rabid dogs.
The GOP base just doesn’t do grown-up anymore. They prefer crazy.
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#53 written by maxakabirdpilot 2 years ago
No information I have confirms that ANY intel of ANY SUBSTANCE leading to the OBL killing came form “enhanced interrogation”.
This timeline appears the most accurate released. Note the dates: 2007; name of courier but no location, 2009; name of courier’s brother’s and area of ops determined, 2010: house located and determination of high value target there.
All these data imply that most of intel within the past 4 years was “boots on the ground” work, NOT interrogation.
Further, the primary (re: FINAL & FATAL) mistake OBL made was forming a continuous pattern over time (Keeping the same courier and staying in one place). A SERIOUS no-no in such circles!
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#54 written by shiloh 2 years ago
Correction:
Dam Neck was my duty station from ’82 to ’85 ~ U.S.S. Saratoga CV-60, Mayport, FL, was my “home” ie ship’s company from ’85 to ’88.
Speaking of conundrums:
Trump runs for president ~ he’s looked at as a fool!
Trump doesn’t run for president ~ he’s looked at as a fool!Love it when a plan comes together.
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#55 written by maxakabirdpilot 2 years ago
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#56 written by filistro 2 years ago
BTW… when you get to know Michael, you realize that wordplay is meat and drink to this guy. He’s responsible for most of our article titles, and almost all of them contain puns at varying levels of subtlety/obscurity. Finding them is like searching for truffles… a dirty, difficult job, but ultimately rewarding
So be honest… how many of you actually caught the pun in this one?
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#57 written by shiloh 2 years ago
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#58 written by mclever 2 years ago
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#60 written by maxakabirdpilot 2 years ago
Interesting to note that no commenter to this site has given any hard evidence of torture being integral to the final location of OBL.
One thing I did not point out in my 15:19 comment: the 2007 date for obtaining the name of the courier. Waterboarding had ended a a practice at that time and not only that, no subsequent intel or confirmations could have been acquired using such techniques that led to OBL. The timeline does not allow it.
Maybe someone can get Rep. King or Turd Blossom or Sister Sarah or Bill-O to put up some evidence that contradicts this, since they are sounding off on the issue.
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#61 written by Monotreme 2 years ago
Interesting to note that no commenter to this site has given any hard evidence of torture being integral to the final location of OBL.
That’s because there is none. Torture is perhaps satisfying to watch on the occasional TV show (yes, 24, I’m looking at you) but about as useful as humans dating vampires in the real world.
I have an active fantasy life, but when it comes to tracking down terrorists, I much prefer reality-based methods.
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#62 written by Monotreme 2 years ago
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#63 written by shiloh 2 years ago
pretty good rundown of the facts
Define “facts” as Rachel Maddow had at least (3) segments tonight on how the media, both print/cable news networks, both liberal/conservative got the breaking bin Laden story wrong.
And who’s to believe any news which came out of the cheney/bush administration from 2001⁄2009 ie stretching the truth is what Rep administrations do best.
Suffice it to say, fanatical minds will not be changed regardless of the truth re: torture, etc., which ironically, in this day of information overload, will probably never be known. No one will never know for sure what happened at Gitmo as the cheney/bush admin has no credibility. Video tapes and transcripts have been consistently destroyed/lost since the beginning of the misbegotten, mismanaged, illegal, inept cheney/bush Iraq War.
Heck, some folk are still arguing over JFK’s assassination and Jimmy Hoffa lol but the truth is out there …
btw, Obama is a Muslim born in Kenya, or so I hear.
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#64 written by shiloh 2 years ago
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#65 written by Monotreme 2 years ago
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#67 written by Monotreme 2 years ago
Tweets per second on May 1, 2011:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/twitteroffice/5681263084 -
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#70 written by mclever 2 years ago
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#71 written by filistro 2 years ago
The Freepers are predictably furious over this decision.
Goodness, it must be exhausting to live life in a constant state of frothing rage like they do.…
And they seem to lack the imagination to consider the president’s hypothetical… what if Al Qaeda operatives took out an American leader (say, former President Bush) and then paraded photos of his mutilated body?
It occurs to me that if these people on the far right fringes were allowed unlimited power, they would not “take their country back”… in fact they would soon turn America into something that none of us would even recognize.
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#72 written by shiloh 2 years ago
The first casualty of war ~ the truth! cheney/bush going out of their way to stretch the truth 2001⁄2009 notwithstanding.
As I mentioned in another post, “we” will never know the “whole” truth re: what happens in wars. Soldiers a few hours after a battle asking themselves: What the hell just happened!
Kinda like an “eye-witness” to a crime having trouble remembering what happened. Another reason why torture is useless/non-productive.
Re: the bin Laden story ~ less is more …
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And they seem to lack the imagination to consider the president’s hypothetical… what if Al Qaeda operatives took out an American leader (say, former President Bush) and then paraded photos of his mutilated body?
Similar to the question I posed to GROG earlier today. It’s one of the main reasons for my ambivalence about the whole operation.
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#74 written by filistro 2 years ago
Poll at msnbc… do you agree with the president’s decision?
Looks like, yet again, Obama has the public on his side. -
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Official US position on sea burial:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/05/02/bin.laden.burial.at.sea/index.html
“The body was washed and placed in a white sheet. A military official read prepared remarks, which were then translated into Arabic by a native speaker. The body of Osama bin Laden was placed on a flat board, which was then tipped up, and allowed to slide into the sea,” the second official said.
For me, it’s ironic, because one of my earliest movie memories (and my first James Bond flick) was You Only Live Twice. James Bond’s burial at sea was conducted exactly like they described, and then look what happened.