State of Florida v Casey Marie Anthony
The jury received the case this morning. If you were on the jury, how would you vote?
(Questions taken from the jury forms.)
Count One
Count Two
Count Three
(We’re going to stipulate that Casey Anthony was the caregiver and that Caylee was under 18, which are findings of fact left to the jury.)
Count Four to Seven
These are four counts of lying to police, but for simplicity, let’s say you can vote for a conviction on any one of them.

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They’re separate counts, so I don’t think so.
I predict the jury will deadlock on Count One, with some going for first-degree and some for manslaughter, and they’ll compromise to second-degree. Not supposed to, but I bet that’s what will happen.
She’s definitely guilty of Desecration of a Corpse. I’m surprised they didn’t bring that charge.
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Okay, my 12-year-old tech assistant (he had a birthday a couple of weeks ago) came over on his skateboard and fixed me up with a keyboard somewhat jammed with toast crumbs, an old monitor with a black band at the top, and a mouse that seems to be missing one ear… all hooked up to my shiny new laptop.
So I’m all set.
Now.. about Casey Anthony… I consider this case very topical since (like the DSK case) it involves societal judgement on a “bad girl.” I’m also a bit disturbed by the inconsistency of my own response. I tend to speak in defense of DSK’s accuser, because even if she’s a “bad woman” I think she is entitled to due process. But I have no sympathy for Casey Anthony. None. I think she killed her child with premeditation, and she should spend the rest of her miserable life in jail.
I guess the reason I feel differently about the two cases is:
1.) Casey Anthony DID receive due process
2.) There is a 2-year-old child involvedIf I were on the jury, I would say I have been convinced beyond a reasonable doubt of Casey Anthony‘s guilt.
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#8 written by Max aka Birdpilot 1 year ago
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Max.. I was convinced by the judge’s charge to the jury today. In FL, if a child dies while being abused, that is considered first degree murder. The trunk of the car where her body was transported held traces of chloroform. Her body when discovered had duct tape tightly covering the nose and mouth. Either thing (sedating with chloroform or taping with no breathing holes) would constitute child abuse.
The mother was the caregiver at the time and her subsequent behavior, in my opinion, points beyond reasonable doubt to guilt rather than innocence.
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#10 written by Max aka Birdpilot 1 year ago
Fili,
You do understand that there WAS no mouth and nose to be “tightly covered” with duct tape. There was nothing but a skull. Duct tape would have been only in the area of the face on a skull as there was nothing to stick to. There was no DNA (tissue) of Caylee on the duct tape. There two things are not conjoined as a result. Therefore the prosecution contention as to the duct tape appears to be rebutted successfully.
There was no evidence presented of the purchase of chloroform or of any chemicals that could be used to make it.
Perhaps you saw such presented and I missed it. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
Thanks
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Max.. the prosecution proved to my satisfaction that soft-tissue DNA degrades rapidly in an outdoor setting. I think the whole defense in this case is smoke and mirrors, like the OJ case. They had a guilty client, and their only recourse was to baffle the jury with BS.
The fact remains, there WAS a dead child. There WAS a skull. There was a mother who knew what happened to the child, and who manufactured a number of lies to explain her disappearance. I think the damning, indisputable evidence in this case is (to quote Sherlock Holmes) the dog that didn’t bark. The mother who didn’t call 911 to get help for her dying child, who didn’t contact the police, who didn’t tell the truth when everybody was searching for her child.
I can’t manufacture any possible scenario in my mind that points to anything but guilt. Therefore I am convinced beyond a reasonable doubt.
If you and I were both on the jury, it would probably end in violence
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#12 written by Max aka Birdpilot 1 year ago
fili, with respect,
you are NOT basing your decision on, as the judge also charged the jury, ONLY THE EVIDENCE presented during the trial, based on the above statement.
Do I BELIEVE she did it? The missing 30 days is a big hump to overcome. But my OPINION is NOT what I can base a verdict on. Legally.
Now you should know, based on the Gator series, that the threat of violence is not a deterrent for me. It’d probably end up hung. Not hanged.
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This is where second-degree murder comes from.
In the real world, sadly, juries can’t come to terms on whether it’s manslaughter (which I think Max is arguing) or first-degree, so they go for second-degree as a “compromise”.
Max, if not manslaughter, then you have to make some sort of argument that doesn’t involve the mother’s gross negligence. Even if she didn’t do it, it’s manslaughter if she allowed it to happen through stupidity where a reasonable person could presume there’d be a problem.
For example, she could’ve left Caylee in a baby seat in the middle of I-4 and that would be manslaughter, even if she’s not driving the semi that ran over the child.
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Max.. I think “cop shows” like CSI have done a great disservice to justice. For one thing, they’ve turned us all into forensic detectives, even though we know nothing at all about the science and REAL forensic detectives (like the one I happen to live with) find such shows utterly and completely ludicrous.
Second, we have all somehow become convinced that the only valid evidence is “direct evidence”.. ie the suspect’s fingerprints or DNA on the murder weapon. In fact “circumstantial evidence”… ie evidence which requires an inference… is entirely acceptable if properly presented, and is even sufficient to establish a verdict of 1st degree murder if enough corroborating circumstantial evidence is presented to build a credible case.
In this instance, I think that burden was met.
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Bottom line, “we” would be better served if CMA gets life or a long term rather than the death penalty ie being convicted of killing her daughter in a celebrity wrongful death case, one could probably assume her stay in prison, whether cut short by her “accidental” death
or not, will not be a pleasant experience for Ms. Anthony …The old joke:
Attorney has good news/bad news for his/her client ~ Bad news, you’ll get (3) life terms …
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>Good news, you’ll only have to serve half!
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#16 written by Max aka Birdpilot 1 year ago
#1 — Not guilty
#2 — Guilty, aggravated child abuse
#3 — Guilty, manslaughter
#4 — Guilty, lying to policeThere was not sufficient corroborating circumstantial evidence for me to match with the lack of direct forensic evidence to, under the law, convict on 1st degree murder.
All IMHO, based on the evidence I have seen.
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In February of this year, Dale Larkin was found guilty of first degree murder in the death of his wife who drowned in the bathtub. The case consisted entirely of circumstantial rather than direct evidence. This was the instruction to the jury:
When the evidence is made up entirely of circumstantial evidence, then before you would be justified in finding the defendant guilty, you must find that all the essential facts are consistent with the hypothesis of guilt, as that is to be compared with all the facts proved; the facts must exclude every other reasonable theory or hypothesis except that of guilt; and the facts must establish such a certainty of guilt of the defendant as to convince the mind beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant is the one who committed the offense. It is not necessary that each particular fact should be proved beyond a reasonable doubt if enough facts are proved to satisfy the jury beyond a reasonable doubt of all the facts necessary to constitute the crime charged. Before a verdict of guilty is justified, the circumstances, taken together, must be of a conclusive nature and tendency, leading on the whole to a satisfactory conclusion and producing in effect a moral certainty that the defendant, and no one else, committed the offense.
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#18 written by Jean 1 year ago
fili, was Larkin a death penalty case?
At best, one count one, the jury will decide second degree murder, but it could possibly be manslaughter. There simply is not the direct evidence tying Casey to the murder of her daughter and that direct evidence generally is necessary to prove in a capital case that could result in the death penalty. Given the strict jury instructions on a capital case, I doubt the jury will convict Casey based on circumstantial evidence.
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Jean.. Larkin was interesting in that the trial was 7 years after the murder, based on exhuming remains. (Part of the circumstantial evidence consisted of large insurance policies Larkin had taken out on his wife prior to her death.) It was in TN which does have the death penalty but has only used if twice in the past 35 years. Larkin was not facing the death penalty.
But Casey Anthony will have the same jury for the penalty phase (they remain sequestered until that’s over, too.) So they have the option of finding 1st degree if the duct tape and the many searches for “chloroform” on the family computer convince them of pre-meditation… but they can still opt for the lesser sentence later.
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pretty clear-cut
Or they want to enjoy their summer vacations …
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hmm, somewhere in prison, O.J. Simpson is smilin’.
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Indeed, it would behoove these jurors to keep a low profile!
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Soooo, most everyone here must be speechless. Yes Virginia, guilty folk beat the rap all the time. C’est la vie …
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To put things in perspective ~ think of all the wrongful deaths down in Gitmo.
And all the murders which go unsolved.
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Wow, I sure got that one wrong.
The only thing I can figure is that we in the public got a lot more info than the jury did. But shiloh is right, unfortunately, about possible anger against the jury.
I also think how much anger there will be against Casey Anthony herself. I think she will not have a pleasant life. As Gerry Spence said after the OJ trial… “You can’t beat the big one.” Meaning, of course, that people who commit murder don’t ever really “get away with it”… no matter what the jury says.
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Maybe CA’s aloofness worked in her favor ie how could a mother be so unconcerned about the welfare of her daughter.
Unfortunately, now the ad nauseam book deals are being processed, just like when O.J. was found “not guilty” of murder ie CA will probably profit immensely for being a very, very bad mother at best.
Which is especially good for her as her infamous notoriety and being a congenital liar would be definite drawbacks to finding a job.
and so it goes …
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#27 written by Mainer 1 year ago
Damn, damn, damn.….…I could have told you all last night this was going to happen but no I had a couple more drinks with my friends instead. Why does any of this surprise you? The jury is modern day America. The prosecutors were garbage.…same with OJ. You have a jury with the attention span of a slug and prosecutors with an attention span until the next election and a media feeding fenzy and any of this surprises you? This is modern day Fox America. Get used to it for it is the new norm. No one is quilty of any thing other than abject stupidity and you can make lush money off that or run for high office with that s a credential. Unless and until our supposed news out lets decide this is not entertainment but serious shit this is only goingto get worse. This had nothing to do with justice and certainly that poor little girl got none and now never will but money, money money. Fox and CNN will still milk this for months. Follow the freaking money to the distruction of our society.
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#28 written by Max aka Birdpilot 1 year ago
shiloh,
Yes Virginia, guilty folk beat the rap all the time.
Wrong!!, WRONG!!!!, WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And you KNOW better than to make such a Bartlike statement!
“Guilt” is a LEGAL condition. Everyone is innocent until a judgement of guilt is rendered in a courtroom. The jury also does not declare a defendant “innocent” because they ALREADY ARE INNOCENT. The jury can declare a judgement of “not guilty”.
Now, had you said, “folk who did the crime beat the rap all the time”, you would have been correct.
I am only surprised by the jury not finding guilt on counts 2 and 3 for child abuse and manslaughter. I thought they would bring their beliefs into the deliberation room. But evidently, they took the judge’s charge seriously and to heart.
This is OUR system of justice and I am very proud of it, regardless of if I agree or not.
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#30 written by Max aka Birdpilot 1 year ago
shiloh,
In MY most polite voice: “Your factual ignorance of our legal system does you no favor and your childish adverse reaction is you needlessly embarrassing yourself. The fact that you compound your original error by very mistakenly noting a “distinction w/out a difference ” and highlights the ignorance of the VERY DISTINCT DIFFERENCE between innocence, “not guilty” and guilt, under our legal system.”
If you more than your (incorrect) opinion to add to the discussion that can show me to be factually or legally incorrect, you are welcome and I’ll concede.
But you can’t. Perhaps you CAN learn something from Bart.
Better stick with NASCAR.
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You are correct, Max. “Guilt” is something different than “did this person do the crime.” It’s an important distinction — just as “innocent” and “not guilty” are two different things.
“Innocent” means you didn’t do it. “Not guilty” means the standards of evidence or proof or competence have not been met, and this verdict does not necessarily say anything about whether or not you did the crime.
That’s why there is a plea of “not guilty by reason of insanity,” which is not “innocent by reason of insanity” (the latter is not a valid plea, nor a valid verdict).
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#33 written by Max aka Birdpilot 1 year ago
dc,
The shame is that many people do not have enough belief in our system to recognize the distinction and the necessity that our Founding Fathers built into it. The necessity that the occasional person who committed the crime will walk, so that the chance that the innocent person will not be convicted will remain strong. Their fear of the essentially unlimited power of the state being brought to bear against the individual is nowhere more evident.
Perhaps shiloh will listen to your point confirming his erroneous statement of “guilty” persons. I won’t engage further with him while he is pounding the floor of the sandbox in disagreement with that distinction.
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I won’t engage further with him while he is pounding the floor of the sandbox in disagreement with that distinction.
Again Wrong!!, WRONG!!!!, WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As it is/was Max who continues to pound the floor of the sandbox. But he says he will no longer engage. So thankfully, his tedious discussion has now come to an end …
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On reflection, I think this case is a good example of how destructive the death penalty is to any system of justice. This should NEVER have been charged as a capital case, and the fact that it was (as Jean pointed out yesterday) no doubt influenced the jury’s decision-making.
Capital cases cost more to try, take longer to appeal, adjudicate, sentence and carry out, and cause frequent miscarriages of justice, wherein innocent people are killed by the state.. .and guilty people go free because juries are reluctant to assess the ultimate penalty.
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#36 written by Max aka Birdpilot 1 year ago
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My prediction: (please forgive typos, working on tiny laptop wth weird keyboard)
1.) she will be found guilty of murder 1st degree
2.) verdict will only take a few days
3.) pnealty phase… no death penalty