No 14<sup>th</sup> Amendment Remedy

President Obama speaks to the nation on the evening of July 25
President Obama (or his Press Secretary, anyway) announced yesterday that the 14th Amendment Remedy to the debt ceiling standoff is “not available” to use.
So where does that leave us? Let’s look at the players, and then we can talk about possible next steps.
House Speaker John Boehner
Boehner has the Ohio Two-Step, which raises the debt ceiling by $1 trillion, cuts spending by $1.2 trillion, and sets up a Congressional commission to come up with an additional $1.8 trillion in cuts by the end of November. The tacit part of the Ohio Two-Step is a reopened debate over the debt ceiling in November as well, since the debt ceiling increase would run out at that time.
The Tea Party and other across-the-board opponents of increasing the debt ceiling have already made clear their opposition to the plan. Unsurprisingly, so have the Democrats. Without either most Tea Partiers or some Democrats (or some extremely unlikely combination of the two), the bill cannot pass the House.
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid
Reid’s plan has $2.7 trillion in spending cuts, with no tax increases. In case anyone has forgotten (it’s sure not evident in this plan), Reid is a Democrat. And the bill even got Obama’s endorsement. So why isn’t this a shoo-in?
First of all, in case anyone has forgotten, Reid is a Democrat. And the bill even got Obama’s endorsement. Those two reasons alone guarantee near-unanimous opposition by Republicans in the House. But then there’s the other reason…it raises the debt ceiling by enough to prevent this issue from recurring before the 2012 election. That makes it a non-starter with Republicans, who wish to have it front and center in the political sphere in the summer of 2012.
Besides the obvious reason that Republicans believe it benefits them politically to have the debt ceiling as the main issue this time next year, they recognize that it has the added bonus of distracting Obama from the campaign trail if he’s simply trying to keep the lights on. Or he can focus on campaigning while Republicans force a default, and bludgeon Obama for campaigning distracting him from such an important issue.
Aside from Michele Bachmann (R-MN), none of the leading Republican candidates for President have any particular involvement in the debt ceiling debate, so this gives a time advantage to them. As an added bonus, whatever Obama does, they can campaign on the opposite position, without having to vote on anything that might come back to bite them later.
President Barack Obama
Obama has been playing the grownup in the room on TV, but he’s been relatively light on specifics. In many ways, this is a sensible approach for him to take. Anything he proposes is instantly opposed by House Republicans, regardless of the content. So why make proposals, when the very act of making them removes them from the realm of House passage?
It’s unclear to me whether denying the 14th Amendment Remedy is a head fake. Certainly, had he made it clear that he was willing to use that out, House Republicans would have cover for taking no action and then blaming the resultant debt increase on the President. Taking the Constitutional Option off the table puts the onus back on the House. But it’s hard to tell if he’d really allow the default to happen.
The Tea Party
For the moment, the Tea Party has an outsized influence over the process. Collectively, they have taken the stance that they will not allow the debt ceiling to be raised under any circumstances. Many of them consider repercussions of a debt default to be as outlandish as global warming or evolution, all of which were created by leftist Communists whose sole desire is to enslave humanity. As such, refusing to increase the debt ceiling is doing a great service to humanity.
What Next?
There are some interesting outcomes that could arise. My favorite is an alliance between House Republicans and House Democrats. Given the chasm in DW-NOMINATE scores between the most conservative Democrat and the most liberal Republican, I’m unsure if this is realistic, though. On the other hand, take a look at the distributions of the 111th and 112th House members.

Note how there is a significant peak at about +0.3. That is closer to many Democrats than it is to that Tea Party mode around +0.9. Perhaps the larger group of Democrats in the –0.2 “shelf” could help get past the Tea Party impasse.
If that were to happen, though, I’d expect that to be the final straw for the Tea Party, which would attempt to replace all existing Republicans with DW-NOMINATE candidates around +0.9. That would almost certainly fail, and the party would formally splinter.
But I’m dreaming, mostly.
Another possible outcome would be a failure to raise the debt ceiling, creating a de-facto government shutdown à la 1995. Could Obama come out a winner in this one, as Bill Clinton did in 1995? Perhaps, but it’s hardly a given.
Or Obama could unilaterally raise the ceiling, using the 14th Amendment Remedy, and dare the Supreme Court to deny him that right. The House would probably at least attempt to impeach him, but it’s almost certain that the Senate wouldn’t convict. So it would be yet another repeat of a Clinton saga. This one, however, could cost him reëlection, if the voters believe he made the wrong choice.
None of the available options create any real winners. The only question before us is who loses the most. This makes the whole affair a sad chapter in American history.
So what path do you think is most likely? What path do you think is the best option? Did I miss a possible outcome?
Related articles
- The 14th Amendment illusion (salon.com)
- Some see way out of debt impasse in provision of 14th Amendment (boston.com)
- The Debt Limit Games (socyberty.com)
- Try Boehner and Cantor for Treason? What about Obama? (skydancingblog.com)
- Obama warns of Made-in-D.C. disaster (business.financialpost.com)
- Amid dueling debt plans, Obama to address nation Monday (business.financialpost.com)
- Caught Between Obama and the Tea Partyers, Boehner Faints. Dissolve to 14th Amendment? (themoderatevoice.com)
- U.S. debt deadlock stretches on (business.financialpost.com)
- Was Obama’s debt ceiling speech a game-changer? (politico.com)
- Bill Clinton: I Would Use 14th Amendment To Raise The Debt Ceiling (blogs.abcnews.com)
- Wiggle Room That They Don’t Actually Want (whodoes.wordpress.com)
- Bill Clinton Deals President Obama A Fourteenth Amendment Wild Card (mediaite.com)
- Bill Clinton: I’d use 14th amendment (kaystreet.wordpress.com)
- 14th Amendment: If Obama Opted For Constitutional Option, Legal Challenge Would Be Hard (huffingtonpost.com)

This entry was posted by Michael Weiss on July 27, 2011 at 3:00 am, and is filed under Uncategorized. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0.You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.
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#2 written by WA7th 1 year ago
“It’s unclear to me whether denying the 14th Amendment Remedy is a head fake.”
If a deal doesn’t get passed, it had better be a head fake. If Congress shirks its duty, that’s not an excuse or invitation for the President to do the same. Either he believes the debt ceiling MUST be raised or he doesn’t. Either he believes the 14th amendment will stand up in court or he doesn’t, which to me is still no excuse not to try it once to find out, which would put this baby to bed once and for all. If Congress fails to act and Obama follows by doing nothing, then he’s either showing a profound lack of leadership in an emergency, or he’s showing he’d rather play re-election politics than do what’s right for the country because he doesn’t believe it’s an emergency after all.
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I’m leaning toward a “brink-of-doomsday” scenario, sort of like what got TARP passed. I think the Republicans will reject everything right up to the last minute, and some morning (quite soon) the markets will panic at their intransigence and drop 1,000 points. This will get everybody’s attention and the Republicans will be called into the principal’s office and given a good whacking behind closed doors, whereupon a clean bill will speedily be passed through to 2013.
The question will be whether, in that messy process, America’s credit rating actually gets downgraded anyhow, because that would wind up being costly for everyone.
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Let me note that though Jay Carney did say that the 14th Amendment might be off the table, he did not say that the President wouldn’t take unilateral action if necessary anyway.
But I think Fili’s right. Wall Street is about to put heavy pressure — slabs of concrete encased in lead wrapped in granite — upon the Republicans.
Just watch. On Monday, there will be an announcement by Cantor and Boehner that America can no longer wait for the do-nothing Democrats and that intransigent Obama to resolve this crisis. Therefore, the courageous Republican leadership in the House is taking the drastic but necessary step of enacting a simple one-sentence increase in the debt limit (now why didn’t those stupid Dems think of THAT???) and then we’ll immediately look into this deficit problem.…
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Where are the Republicans on business “uncertainty?” Remember when that was the major force holding back the recovery? Do Republicans imagine that this debt limit crisis they’ve created doesn’t also create “uncertainty?” Do any of them think that if America starts suddenly not paying its bills, that this won’t cause further “uncertainty?” Or do we suspect this was all just empty rhetoric and cynical talking points? Perish the thought.
I heard that Boehner was “surprised” yesterday when the White House indicated that if Boehner’s bill got past Congress, President Obama would veto it. You gotta wonder what Boehner has been drinking that allowed this to come as a “surprise.” It contains everything President Obama has said all along we would veto. Perhaps Boehner still doesn’t take the President seriously. But perhaps he’s beginning to:
CBS News’ Jill Jackson overhead the Speaker say: “I didn’t sign up for going mano-a-mano with the President of the United States.”
Republicans really did think that, upon taking control of the House, they would be able to simply do whatever they wanted, like the frat boys in Animal House.
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Looks like Dc and I are right. The pressure on Republicans began this morning, with this post at NRO showing the debt impasse is already causing business owners to contemplate cutbacks in spending and hiring.
The ChangeWave survey also found an unexpected contributing factor – which became apparent when corporate buyers were asked the following:
“Moody’s and Standard & Poor’s have threatened to lower the United States’ AAA credit rating because of Washington’s inability to legislate an effective debt reduction package. Wide differences continue to remain between the two political parties on how to resolve the debt reduction issue. Thinking about your company’s overall capital budget for 3rd Quarter 2011, has the debt reduction impasse and continuing controversy caused your company to make any adjustments to their capital budget over the past 90 days?“
…16% reported their 3rd Quarter cap budget had Adjusted Lower over the past 90 days because of this issue. Only 1% said their cap budget had adjusted higher.
I wouldn’t want to be a congressional Republican right now. The pressure going forward is just going to be brutal… and there’s no pony at the end of this, either.
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Here is an excellent FAQ-type Q&A on the debt ceiling, what it means, why and how it got there, and what would happen if we didn’t raise it.
Apparently, there still are people arguing that all we have to do is pay the interest on the outstanding loans in order to avoid being in default. I heard Florida’s Governor Rick Scott arguing this insane notion just this morning.
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CBO has just released its scoring of Reid’s plan.
Savings are 2.2T, not 2.7T… but still much greater than in Boehner’s plan.
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#9 written by fopplssiegeparty 1 year ago
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Here is an interesting report:
Reid savings trumps Boehner plan
The Congressional Budget Office released a report Wednesday morning that credits the Senate bill with reducing budget deficits by about $2.2 trillion through 2021, nearly three times the $850 billion credited to the Boehner bill on Tuesday.
Republicans, of course, will unanimously oppose Reid’s plan, thus proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that “reducing budget deficits” was never actually even a remote concern for them. I don’t think Republicans could take an honest policy position even if you promised them a cookie and a pony to do it.
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#11 written by Mainer 1 year ago
No Mono no damned cover for any of them at this point. The damage has already probably been done even if not as great as actually defaulting. Let them swim in their own shit.
We are going to default at any level just being able to pay the interest when you are not meeting other obligations passed as law in this country still makes it a default. Let me run a secenario past you. Stiffing SS recipients would be bad.….very bad.…..hell I’m one of them. But lets say one of the groups that gets stiffed is the veterans. At some level they will have to be. Can you tink of any one group any more likely to take your sorry ass out for such an act? Does any one on here not know a vet or vets that are not the most stable lot in good times? Well lets see what happens when we push them under the bus. I could personaly name 9 or 10 (admittedly I move in different circles than some of you) that you cut the meds, the VA psych work or their livelyhood and they have the means and the mind set to cause some bad things to happen.
But we have an entire group in this country that want to prove that we don’t need the federal government so shutting it down for them is just a lab to prove they are right. You watch, we will default and we are going to get hit with every thing mother nature can throw at us nd when FEMA is called I want to be the one to tell this or that Republican govenor.…..I’m sorry Gov all I seem to be able to do is get an out of office answer on the phone. Or the state is on fire and the US Forrest service is temporarily on hold or we have a massive salmonella out break and.…..well you get the point. People are going to die to prove the radright is radwrong.
So if people die because of this would not that be at the minimum manslaughter for elements in our government? And before a couple of you pin heads on the other side start crying but it is the other sides fault just cram it. I don’t buy it and enough more like me don’t to cause worry in normal people.….…but seeing as none of you are this is about to get scarry interesting.
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Shall we solicit opinions on whether the re-worked Boehner bill will be made closer to Reid’s (to encourage actual passage in the Senate and to show an honest attempt at achieving something) or more Teaper-y (to improve chances of all-Republican passage in the House and to make yet another useless partisan statement)?
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Mainer,
You bring up a valid and frightening point that many, I think, would rather avoid. America deciding not to pay its bills might well push some people to desperation. Desperate people commit desperate acts. This is a very dark addition to all the other terrible things that a default would cause. It is worthwhile for everyone to spend some time contemplating the unthinkable.
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#15 written by fopplssiegeparty 1 year ago
@ dc:
My gut says that Boehner’s bill will be more Teaper-y.I have spent time thinking about the unthinkable, though apparently not enough, for I am not totally prepared. I am very close to booking a one way flight out of here, since I am a total wimp and do not want to be hanging around here while a civil war is going on.
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This is playing out pretty much as Michael has predicted:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/60022.html
In metaphorical terms, this is like the Mafia putting a full-page ad in the paper saying, “If Joe’s Bar doesn’t pay us protection money, we’re gonna burn the place down.” It’s one thing to secretly send a couple of large guys in suits around to do the job of whipping votes. It’s another to send emails openly threatening to primary people who disagree with you.
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Monotreme,
One thing I find quite telling in that article:
“If this gets chaotic, they [the Senate] will fold like a cheap suit,” Boehner said, according to GOP sources.
Republicans really do think, not only that they have the right to ram anything they want through Congress, but that the Democrats will let them. They confuse willingness to negotiate and compromise for the good of the country with weakness (which explains why they don’t do it themselves). Even now, they truly believe President Obama is a wuss.
I think they may be surprised.
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Democrats say Obama should invoke 14th Amendment
WASHINGTON (AP) — … Rep. James Clyburn of South Carolina, a member of the Democratic leadership, said he told fellow Democrats that Obama should both veto any House GOP plan for a short-term extension of the debt ceiling and invoke the 14th amendment, which says that the validity of the nation’s public debt “shall not be questioned.“
…
Larson said Clyburn’s proposal on the 14th Amendment was met with applause by other Democrats at their meeting. -
Something vital is happening here.
Teapers are revolting (well yes, but read on…) against Boehner’s proposed bill. Boehner has the choice of making the bill less acceptable to the Senate (if that’s even possible — Reid already says it will be DOA) or standing up to the Teapers. He already warned the Teapers in a meeting before the CBO scored his bill to “get their ass in line” behind the legislation. Cantor told the Teapers to stop whining.
The Republican leadership in the House is now going to have to either exert some authority over, or establish some independence from, the Teapers. The must get the Teapers in line, or go forward without them. The Reign of TeaperTerror may be nearing its final daze.
It go through a new phase first. If it becomes obvious that President Obama may be forced into invoking the Fourteenth, this will put Congress into a position of ceding authority over the debt limit to the President forever after. The only way Congress can maintain that authority is to authorize a debt limit increase. It may come down to a choice of passing a clean one-sentence bill, or forevermore allowing the President to borrow money at his discretion.
At that point, emboldened by having taken the steps needed to bring his own bill before the House floor, Boehner may well decide to tell the Teapers to just go pound sand. He may insist that the rest of his caucus find a shred of sanity left in one of those locked file cabinets, dust it off, and take a vote for the good of Congress — since they have already proven unwilling to vote for the good of the country.
And then, once the Teapers are jilted — what next?
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#20 written by fopplssiegeparty 1 year ago
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#22 written by fopplssiegeparty 1 year ago
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fopplssiegeparty,
They subtract 12 from 14.
Interesting. You start with the validity of the public debt, subtract the election of the President and Vice President as a single-party slate, and end up with…yeah, it’s a little too unpleasant to seriously consider.
filistro, could you remind me of the requirements for emigrating from the US to the United Provinces?
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And finally the truth comes out. Rep Paul Broun (R-GA), speaking for the Tea Party caucus, just told Andrea Mitchell why they will not support the Boehner bill, even though, as Mitchell points out, it contains no tax increases (and rejecting it will put Boehner’s speakership at risk.)
“We in the Tea Party are fighting for America’s future, not John Boehner’s” he said. “We want to see spending cuts across the board. We just don’t believe the debt ceiling should be raised at all.”
So there you have it. Democrats are trying to negotiate with people controlled by a group who WANT the country to default. I’ve seen Freepers saying this for weeks… they want the country to crash and go into turmoil so a new, stripped-down, lean mean totally capitalist state can arise from the ashes.
This is the first time I’ve heard it from an elected representative of the Tea Party caucus… but I believe he is speaking the actual truth.
It’s crunch time for the sane Republicans. Do they do what’s right for the country and throw this crazy bunch overboard… thus torpedoing their own electoral prospects? I guess we’re going to see.. and very soon.
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#28 written by fopplssiegeparty 1 year ago
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DC… I don’t hear a single word Bachmann ever says. Her voice is totally drowned out by my laughter.
But hard on the heels of Broun’s astonishing statement we have Jenny Beth Martin speaking for the Tea Party patriots who are now rallying in DC. Martin, a co-founder of the group, says she realizes the Tea Party may take a hit for their “no-deal” stance if/when the country goes into default, but they are prepared to run that risk out of sheer patriotism.
(As one of the commenters observes… “The Tea Party are now suicide bombers attacking the American economy.”)
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They’re coming thick and fast today. I can hardly keep up.
More evidence of the war between Boehner and the Tea Party and the coming crack up in the GOP that it presages.
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Well, this is heartening: A new WAPO/ABC poll shows Obama is losing support massively among far left Democrats, partly as a result of concessions made in this debt ceiling fight.… But oddly enough, it’s not costing him overall.
He currently enjoys a higher popularity among his own party than any Democratic president since Truman!
But as in similar moments in the past, such as the loss of the public option in the health care debate, the failure to end Bush-era tax cuts on high-earning Americans, and last spring’s government shutdown showdown, voters’ disappointments in policy choices are not translating to serious problems for Obama’s reëlection campaign.
President Obama currently enjoys a higher popularity among Democratic voters than every Democratic president dating back to Harry Truman had at similar junctures in their presidencies.
According to Gallup’s presidential job approval data, Obama had a 78 percent approval rating among Democrats from July 18 to July 24, 2011. Bill Clinton, meanwhile, had a 77 percent approval rating among Democrats from July 20 to July 23, 1995. Before him, Jimmy Carter had a 37 percent approval rating among Democrats from July 13 to July 16, 1979. Before him, Lyndon Johnson had a 63 percent approval rating among Democrats from July 13 to July 18, 1967. Before him, John F. Kennedy had a 77 percent approval rating among Democrats from July 18 to July 23, 1963. And before him, Harry Truman had a 76 percent approval rating percent among Democrats from July 4 to July 9, 1947.
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#34 written by CaptainPlatypus 1 year ago
Nice work, Michael. Love the Tea Party’s picture. The DOW, by the way, is down 200 as of this post.
filistro:
Well, this is heartening: A new WAPO/ABC poll shows Obama is losing support massively among far left Democrats, partly as a result of concessions made in this debt ceiling fight.… But oddly enough, it’s not costing him overall.
He currently enjoys a higher popularity among his own party than any Democratic president since Truman!Heartening indeed. I happen to be quite a bit to the left of where Obama’s governed, but then, I get the feeling he is too — the main thing I have to criticize him over is being a little too risk-averse, and running for reëlection as opposed to trying to get things done a little too much. But given the current state of the Republican party, trying to get anything positive done is a joke anyway, and it’s pretty impressive that he’s done what he has.
It’s probably worth noting that I’m an independent.
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More fallout from the Republican Study Committee protection money faux pas: Republican members of Congress openly call for the firing of RSC executive director Teller.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/60035.html
And the crevasse deepens.
Really, anyone with a DW-NOMINATE above +0.8 is about to get thrown out with yesterday’s garbage. That’s the only way to make a deal. If so-called moderate Republicans (i.e. non-Tea Party Republicans) get primaried, or if the RSC continues to threaten same, the Democrats should welcome them with open arms. Americans vote for a Representative, not for a party, and I think many of them know that it doesn’t matter if they have an “R” or a “D” after their name as long as they have an “I”.
It would be rich if the Democrats get 25 defectors and regain the majority.
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Could someone please remind me what conservatives were saying here recently about boehner getting the best of Obama re: the debt ceiling debate as my memory is fuzzy.
And please, just the cliff notes version and feel free to leave out the paragraph re: Bartles continually sayin’ Obama has been owned by the opposition.
Taking into consideration many of Bartles teabaggers are currently telling Speaker boehner to F… O..! ~ Shocking …
>
Indeed Bart as truer words were never spoken ~ Ain’t governing a bitch!
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Massive popular support for the Tea Party’s position was evident in today’s rally at the US Capitol.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/60059.html
Fifteen attendees! The People have spoken! Vox populi, vox dei!
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#40 written by Rose 1 year ago
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#41 written by rgbact 1 year ago
The DOW is now down 180 points on the day. It’s beginning.
And the GOP’s Excellent Adventure is about to come to a crashing end.More hand wringing about stocks from the “Wall Street is evil” crowd?
Given govt is about 25% of GDP and 40% of that is credit.…..so the Dow likely needs about a 10% slide when we tear up the credit cards. Not pleasant.…but not catastrophic. Mostly hits the evil rich anyway. Warren Buffett won’t be happy.
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#42 written by rgbact 1 year ago
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rgbact,
the Dow likely needs about a 10% slide when we tear up the credit cards. Not pleasant.…but not catastrophic.
But that’s not how it works. People buy stocks on margin, so a 10% slide turns into something quite a bit larger as forced sales enter the market. Plus there’s the psychological pile-on that occurs when people’s perception is taken into account…that pushes things still lower. It makes for a good buying opportunity for some people after the slide is over, but it can take a while for all of that to get absorbed.
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rgbact
More hand wringing about stocks from the “Wall Street is evil” crowd?
You’ve missed a lot of the nuance.
Whether Wall Street is evil or not, a big part of Fili’s and my point is that much of the political funding for Republicans comes from Wall Street. Any Republican policy which Wall Street doesn’t like will encourage Wall Street to put pressure on Republicans to change their policy. Any policy which causes Wall Street to lose money is a policy Wall Street doesn’t like. (I’m oversimplifying, because some Wall Street investors bet against the DOW, and certainly make money when the rest of Wall Street crashes, but still…)
So the point isn’t whether “Wall Street is evil,” it is that SINCE this manufactured debt limit “crisis” is going to hurt Wall Street, the investors are going to put pressure on Republicans to resolve it and pass a debt limit increase.
Is that more clear?
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#45 written by rgbact 1 year ago
But that’s not how it works. People buy stocks on margin, so a 10% slide turns into something quite a bit larger as forced sales enter the market. Plus there’s the psychological pile-on that occurs when people’s perception is taken into account…that pushes things still lower. It makes for a good buying opportunity for some people after the slide is over, but it can take a while for all of that to get absorbed.
You’re likely right. There will be panic selling.….but that creates buying opportunities. If you can’t handle the swings, the stock market ain’t for you. Long-term though—I think a 10% drop is about right based on the fundamentals of no more govt borrowing. We can’t keep living on a borrowed economy.
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rgbact,
Long-term though—I think a 10% drop is about right based on the fundamentals of no more govt borrowing. We can’t keep living on a borrowed economy.
Yeah, that’s probably right. One can minimize the swings by making more gentle movements, though. We don’t have to slash and burn overnight.
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#47 written by shortchain 1 year ago
We can’t keep living on a borrowed economy.
I grew up in farming country, and I’ve seen people who lived their entire lives and never got out of debt. One of my cousins married a guy who has declared bankruptcy twice and is deeply in debt for the third time. In a few cases it’s gone on for generations.
Based on my real-world experience, I can state categorically that you can live on borrowed money forever, provided you can keep up with the payments, and people are still willing to lend to you.
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#48 written by mostlyilurk 1 year ago
As for the Teaper Representatives, they need to be shot down NOW. it should be decisive, otherwise we will have two more years of deadlock and chaos.
You should see if Jared Loughner is available to carry out your sick desires.
00 iRate This
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//–>Wow, rgb, just when I think people can’t sink any lower, you come around and prove that they can.
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#49 written by rgbact 1 year ago
Yeah, that’s probably right. One can minimize the swings by making more gentle movements, though. We don’t have to slash and burn overnight.
That was the hope. But, the Senate has ignored the budgeting process and the Obama talks have failed. Even so, Boehner’s plan only cuts spending in 2012 by $1B. Hardly “slash and burn”. If Obama vetoes it.….the only path left is partial shutdown…which will hurt stocks somewhat.….but will likely not last that long since negotiations will go on.
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#50 written by parksie555 1 year ago
Sorry libs. Looks like Boehner is bringing his caucus around.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/60041.html
While Obama pouts on TV at least someone in DC is showing some leadership.
So if a bill with no tax increases and a short-term debt extension gets to Obama’s desk will he sign it?
Or will he drive the last nail into his one-term coffin by vetoing it?
Hmmmmmm.
And Democrat nimrod-in-chief Debbie Wasserman Schultz showing class as always…
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/60080.html
She is an absolute disgrace.
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shortchain,
Based on my real-world experience, I can state categorically that you can live on borrowed money forever, provided you can keep up with the payments, and people are still willing to lend to you.
You’re doing the same thing Wally did earlier. Yes, you literally can do that. It’s not a good idea. I mentioned a very long time ago the difference between good debt and bad debt.
In a nutshell, with good debt you come out ahead of where you would have been absent the debt. With bad debt, you come out behind. Some examples of good debt are using the debt for appreciating assets, or to take advantage of arbitrage opportunities, or for some forms of hedging. An example of bad debt is buying an expensive meal on a credit card, and taking a decade to pay off that debt accumulation.
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#53 written by fopplssiegeparty 1 year ago
@ parksie
parksie555:
Sorry libs. Looks like Boehner is bringing his caucus around.Looks like some freshmen will have some ’splainin’ to do when they get home.
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I think almost everyone (not quite everyone, but almost) would agree that the deficits we are today running are unsustainable, and that it would be a Very Good Thing to balance the budget as soon as it is practical to do so.
However, it would seem to many (I won’t venture to say “most”) that shrinking the economy is the wrong thing to do in a recession. In fact, it makes sense to grow the economy if you’re in a recession.
Since government expenditures are a portion of the economy, it makes little sense (to many) to reduce government expenditures during a recession. In fact, it would seem to make sense to increase government expenditures during a recession — if the increases are properly targeted. (Most likely, simple untargeted blanket increases would be not nearly as efficient as, say, investments in infrastructure, education, and health care.)
The arguments against blanket increases in taxes during a recession certainly hold for blanket decreases in government expenditures during a recession. Both would take money out of private hands, and during a recession, you want to encourage money to move through a lot of private hands. However, as with targeted expenditure increases, it may also be that targeted tax increases would actually be helpful during a recession.
This is because not all places where money sits are equal. As I said, during a recession, you want money to move around. If money is simply sitting somewhere, then it isn’t helping the economy to recover. If that money is taxed, and then spent in targeted areas to increase economic activity, then you have not only increased economic activity, but you have done so without going deeper into debt. This makes it easier to re-balance your budget once the recession is over.
As in all things, the key is balance, and looking at the current, real, actual conditions rather than relying simply on dogmatic theory (which not only might not apply to the current situation — it might not actually apply to any real situation).
So the points I want to make are:
1. It is NOT TRUE that Democrats only want to borrow and spend, regardless of economic conditions.
2. It is NOT TRUE that an opposition to cutting the budget NOW implies an opposition to cutting the budget EVER
3) it is NOT TRUE that cutting the budget NECESSARILY is a good idea in a recession
4) it is NOT TRUE that cutting the taxes NECESSARILY is a good idea in a recessionJust as a historical note, it IS TRUE that, certainly since John Kennedy, Republican Presidents have borrowed far more money that Democrats have. Which implies that the meme of Democratic “borrow and spend” economics is an intentional propagandistic falsehood.
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rgbact,
the only path left is partial shutdown…which will hurt stocks somewhat.….but will likely not last that long since negotiations will go on.
I’m pretty sure the long-term impact would be much greater than that. Once US debt has dropped from AAA ratings, it will never again be the safest investment anyone could ever make. There will necessarily be a risk premium, most likely to remain for the rest of the lives of all of the people on this site today.
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@parksie So if a bill with no tax increases and a short-term debt extension gets to Obama’s desk will he sign it?
Not much chance of Boehner’s bill getting to the president’s desk. Boehner just received thie letter, signed by every democratic Senator plus I’s Sanders and Lieberman.
Speaker John Boehner U.S. Capitol, H-232 Washington, DC 20515
Dear Speaker Boehner,
With five days until our nation faces an unprecedented financial crisis, we need to work together to ensure that our nation does not default on our obligations for the first time in our history. We heard that in your caucus you said the Senate will support your bill. We are writing to tell you that we will not support it, and give you the reasons why.
A short-term extension like the one in your bill would put America at risk, along with every family and business in it. Your approach would force us once again to face the threat of default in five or six short months. Every day, another expert warns us that your short-term approach could be nearly as disastrous as a default and would lead to a downgrade in our credit rating. If our credit is downgraded, it would cost us billions of dollars more in interest payments on our existing debt and drive up our deficit. Even more worrisome, a downgrade would spike interest rates, making everything from mortgages, car loans and credit cards more expensive for families and businesses nationwide.
In addition to risking a downgrade and catastrophic default, we are concerned that in five or six months, the House will once again hold the economy captive and refuse to avoid another default unless we accept unbalanced, deep cuts to programs like Medicare and Social Security, without asking anything of the wealthiest Americans.
We now have only five days left to act. The entire world is watching Congress. We need to do the right thing to solve this problem. We must work together to avoid a default the responsible way — not in a way that will do America more harm than good.
Sincerely,
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parksie,
And Democrat nimrod-in-chief Debbie Wasserman Schultz showing class as always…
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/60080.html
She is an absolute disgrace.
I read the article. What exactly did she do that was disgraceful?
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#58 written by Jean 1 year ago
Just what we need. A Tea Party Speaker of the House:
Tea Party Nation leader Judson Phillips called on House Speaker John Boehner “to go” and be replaced by a “Tea Party Speaker of the House” in a blog post Wednesday morning, the same day that Jenny Beth Martin, co-founder of the Tea Party Patriots, said that her group was looking into the same idea.
Martin sounded a similar theme at a breakfast sponsored by The Christian Science Monitor, saying that in a just-completed poll of their members, four-fifths are not satisfied with Boehner and nearly three-quarters would like to have a new Speaker of the House.
“Maybe we should see about a different Speaker right away,” she said.
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Jean,
I find it particularly hard to believe that a majority of House members would elect a Tea Party Speaker. Look at the DW-NOMINATE scores of the House members. The Tea Party doesn’t have the votes to pull it off. And I double-dog dare the Tea Party to primary all moderate Republicans in the House. It would be the end of the Republican majority for sure…it almost certainlly would be the end of the Tea Party as a “party within a party” as well.
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#61 written by Jean 1 year ago
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@filistro
Thanks for finding that letter.
What I find funny is that when President Obama does something that supposedly ticks off his “base”, conservatives chortle that he no longer has a chance at reëlection. But when he does something (or plans to do something) that his “base” likes, conservatives chortle that he no longer has a chance at reëlection.
When Obama does something that conservatives like, conservatives gleefully proclaim that he’s weak. When he does something that conservatives don’t like, they whine that he’s too weak and he should show some leadership.
When he gets involved in some legislative matter, conservatives complain that he’s arrogant, and should stop trying to tell Congress what to do. When he stays out of some legislative matter, conservatives tell us that Obama is showing no leadership, he’s aloof and has no principles.
I’m sort of detecting a pattern here. Not sure what made me think of it.
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#67 written by Jean 1 year ago
Here’s a take on the 14th Amendment issue from one of my favorite bloggers, a Republican Governor’s former speech writer:
“… And for what it’s worth, I thought the President’s speech last night was dull — but dull by design.
Instead of taking the fight straight to the right wing as he’s had more than ample provocation to do — and which would have rallied a dispirited base that’s frankly suspicious about his motives right now — the President gave a speech that seemed targeted once again to those doubters in the middle who need further convincing that the GOP has lost itself in the lunatic fringe.
The speech was not designed to be a game-changer that untangled the present gridlocked negotiation. Rather, I think the speech was designed to prepare the ground for the next big step, which I continue to believe will be Obama’s decision to raise the debt ceiling unilaterally, on his own once its clear no deal with Republicans is possible, making use of constitutional powers to preserve the nation’s credit that some believe the President has possessed all along.
Before taking this next dramatic step, however, the President stills needed to convince the public of its legitimacy. He did that by emphasizing the urgency of the situation before us, the justice and fairness of the “balanced” approach he has been presenting in his negotiations with Republicans so far, and by highlighting again that he has made every reasonable effort to work cooperatively with Republicans to achieve a compromise — even with a party that simply cannot, for ideological and psychological reasons, compromise its positions except on their own narrowly-ideologically terms, as Senator Lee shows.
I believe the President is now convinced that further negotiations with Republicans are futile. He has downplayed the “constitutional option” to this point so as to keep negotiations going and, frankly, to keep tensions high so that Republicans will expose the full extent of their reckless radicalism.
But when push comes to shove and the August 2 deadline approaches, I believe he will do what Bill Clinton advised that he do last week, and raise the debt ceiling by executive order on his own, without an ideologically stalemated Congress, and dare the Supreme Court to overrule him.”
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#68 written by rgbact 1 year ago
I’m pretty sure the long-term impact would be much greater than that. Once US debt has dropped from AAA ratings, it will never again be the safest investment anyone could ever make. There will necessarily be a risk premium, most likely to remain for the rest of the lives of all of the people on this site today.
So credit ratings only move in one direction.…worse? We pass a BBA and wipe out the deficit.…and we’re still stuck with AA rating? Hardly makes sense.
Given the transparency involved in US treasuries…I’m not even sure how much ratings matter. We had a AAA rating in early 80’s and interest rates were 10%+.
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rgbact,
We had double digit inflation in the early 80s. There was almost zero default risk premium then. You really didn’t know the difference?As for the BBA…there are plenty of things that could happen someday. But I sure don’t see that one on the horizon. It’s been discussed for decades, but it’s always been a political gimmick. I see no evidence that it’s different this time. Do you? If so, please show me what’s different.
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#70 written by Jean 1 year ago
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rgbact
So credit ratings only move in one direction.…worse? We pass a BBA and wipe out the deficit.…and we’re still stuck with AA rating? Hardly makes sense.
In this case, we’re talking about the credit rating of a nation. The reason America has the best possible credit rating is that we are the largest economy in the world, and we have never defaulted on the money we owe. If we prove we are willing to default — especially if that default comes, not of necessity, but merely as a partisan political stunt — then the world knows it can happen again, at any time, ever.
American bonds no longer are an absolutely sure sure thing, because you never know when another Tea Party might decide, simply to force some unrelated domestic agenda, — or simply in an effort to make a sitting president look bad — to default again.
Given the transparency involved in US treasuries…I’m not even sure how much ratings matter. We had a AAA rating in early 80’s and interest rates were 10%+.
You’re mixing consumer credit with bond ratings. They’re related, but not identical. US treasury notes still had the best rating in the world.
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#73 written by Jean 1 year ago
MW,
So far as the Speaker of the House, replacement, I doubt the Tea Party thinking in the US House is that sophisticated or logically analyzed. Same goes for Ohio. The Tea Party will find SOMEONE to run, even if à la Christine O’Donnell.
More likely, much like the Mafia, the thinking is that if they can strong-arm Boehner into stepping down, then anyone else not hand-picked by the Tea Party to assume that role will be very very hesitant to step forward themselves.
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#74 written by Jean 1 year ago
And yet another voice of reason over at redstate, albeit a voice in the minority, as this commenter notes:
“If the purpose of this debate is to save the country, why are we threatening to drive the country off the cliff?
Now, some have said, “Don’t worry your little self about scare words like default and the Washington Monument being shut down, Defense contractors not getting paid. It will be one quick 40 percent cut in federal spending. And no one will miss it.”
The problem, as I see it, is this. Not even the most tea party oriented Republicans in the House or the Senate have proposed and detailed a budget whereby the federal government cuts spending by 40 percent immediately.
Sure, Coburn has detailed 9 trillion dollars of “cuts” (actually cuts from an inflated baseline) over many, many years. But nobody, and I mean nobody, has introduced into this discussion a budget that shows us how we manage, overnight, with 40 percent less money than before.
Paul Ryan’s budget did not get the federal budget into balance until 2030.
So, the “let’s drive this country off a cliff” idea has always seemed a bit insane. It’s as though many conservatives figure that the voters will never elect the right kind of Congressmen and President, so why not just throw the long ball, hail Mary pass and hope we get an end zone catch.
I think it’s nuts. But I’m in the minority here.”
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#76 written by parksie555 1 year ago
@MWeiss — Accusing the GOP of seeking a dictatorship? Really? Maybe she should spend a little more time trying to come up with a solution to the debt crisis rather than calling Politico.
Can you say intellectual flyweight? What a ditz. Unfortunately she is all too representative of the loony left.
@Filly — Unfortunately Reid has been pushed off the bus. Biden now handling the negotiations with McConnell
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/60095.html
Maybe Biden is thinking about throwing his hat in the ring for 2012
. Can’t be any worse than Obama, can he?Nevermind.
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@Jean (quoting a redstater):
Now, some have said, “Don’t worry your little self about scare words like default and the Washington Monument being shut down, Defense contractors not getting paid. It will be one quick 40 percent cut in federal spending. And no one will miss it.”
By coincidence, Wally asked me on another thread earlier today whether any conservatives actually said stuff like this.
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#79 written by Jean 1 year ago
Parksie555,
I think you were referring to me, not Michael Weiss. So I’ll respond:
It’s not the GOP (RINO’s as they are called within their own party) seeking a dictatorship. It’s the Tea Party. To quote again from one of my favorite bloggers,
“If the political upheavals in present-day America look like those of the four societies he studied in his classic work, The Anatomy of Revolution, the late Crane Brinton might say that America stands at the border between “the failure of the moderates” and “the accession of the extremists.”
Most people elected to Congress think they’ve been sent to Washington to govern. Our republican system, in fact, is based on James Madison’s conception of representation where “extending the sphere,” both geographically and ideologically, allows us to “take in a greater variety of parties and interests” and thereby “refine and enlarge the public views” of those chosen few that the American people send to Congress in the hope their “wisdom may best discern the true interest of their country.”
The freshman Tea Party Republican class of 2010, on the other hand, thinks it’s been sent to Washington on a government-wrecking “mission.”
Certainly Republicans are behaving as if they have no obligation to work with Democrats to govern one country on behalf of the American people as a whole. Look at the flimsy rationale upon which they base their claim to represent the interests of the American people — instead of just those who voted for them.
Adducing a clear mandate from an American election is a notoriously imperfect proposition. Just ask George W. Bush, who squandered all of the “political capital” he earned in 2004 chasing after the right wing pipe dream of killing Social Security as we know it.
But just like George Bush, Tea Party Republicans have managed to convince themselves America has already had its “accountability moment” way back in November 2010. The Tea Party won. And everything the public has said since then is irrelevant and immaterial to these Tea Party true believers.
And just like our Tea Party Radicals, the fact that extremists might be in the minority does not dissuade them from claiming that they speak on the people’s behalf. Indeed, in most revolutionary societies that Brinton studied, “these radicals were very conscious, and usually very proud, of their small numbers. They felt definitely set off from their countrymen, consecrated to a cause which their countrymen were not consciously and actively equal to. Some of the radicals may even have satisfied themselves that they really represented the better selves of their fellow countrymen.”
Or, as Communist leader Leon Trotsky put it: “Those against the insurrection were ‘everybody’ — except the Bolsheviks. But the Bolsheviks were The People.”
As the grip of extremists upon a nation’s political life tightens, says Brinton, “tempers are strained to the breaking point” and crises develop over matters that “in a stable society are capable of an almost automatic solution.”
Such matters, that is, as the raising of the debt ceiling so that the nation can pay its bills and thus avoid the economic calamity of default.
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#80 written by parksie555 1 year ago
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#81 written by rgbact 1 year ago
Can you say intellectual flyweight? What a ditz. Unfortunately she is all too representative of the loony left.
I agree. Obama nominating a lightweight lib hack congresswoman to DNC chair pretty much sums up the state of the current Democrat party. Has a congressperson ever been DNC/RNC chair?
On Fox just now, some Democrat said that 100 democrats voted for BBA in the 90’s. In 2011, the BBA is a crazy batshit idea to Democrats. You figure out which party has gone off the fringes.
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rgbact,
A Balanced Budget Amendment was a crazy batshit idea in the 90’s, too. And clearly unnecessary then, because the guy who was president in the 90’s is the only president in a century who balanced the budget.
It’s interesting that this idea was raised in the 70’s, dropped in the 80’s while Reagan was President, raised again in the 90’s, dropped in the ’00’s while Bush was President. One might suspect it is used mostly as a propaganda ploy when there’s a Democrat in the White House, hmmm? And isn’t it interesting that the guys who were president in the 80’s and ’00’s together are responsible for 60% of all the national debt since the inception of our country?
And Debbie Wasserman-Schultz must be pretty effective in her role to draw such ire from you guys. (I wonder if I should point out your over-the-top hatred of progressive women? Nah, that bit of satire is far too easy.)
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I’m not sure if I can believe this since it comes from FOX “News”, but they’re <a href=“http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/07/27/tea-party-activists-revolt-against-boehner-amid-debt-crisis/ rel=“nofollow”>saying that the Tea Party is looking askance at Boehner’s bill. Apparently, the Tea Party is revolting.
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Can you say intellectual flyweight? What a ditz. Unfortunately she is all too representative of the loony left.
Parksie,
I’m disappointed in you. You’re a better man than that. Disagree with the woman’s ideas, if you must, but calling her stupid is not in any way appropriate unless you have some evidence to back up your argument.
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Here is what Debbie WS said that has conservatives everywhere so up in arms and furious.
Honestly, I’m having a hard time understanding the level of indignation. Seems odd to me.
“Aren’t we at the point where the closer we get to chaos, the more concern that there should be about coming to the table and compromising with Democrats?” Wasserman Schultz asked. “This is not leadership. This is almost like dictatorship. I know they want to force the outcome that … their extremists would like to impose. But they are getting ready to spark panic and chaos, and they seem to be OK with that. And it’s just really disappointing, and potentially devastating.”
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Disagree with the woman’s ideas
p555’s hyperbolic irony aside, like grog/Wally/Bartles et al conservatives, they frequently attack the messenger instead of the message ’cause hey, that’s how they roll.
Again, never a good way to try to win a debate, eh. But hopefully it makes them feel better.
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Actually, Debbie WS was talking about GOP inter– party dynamics, not any attempt to impose a “‘dictatorship” on America. She was saying (if you actually READ the Politico article) that the whipping and organizing on this is more like “dictatorship than leadership”.. ie, the leaders are saying to the caucus, “get your asses in line or else…” which is exactly what Boehner DID say. So she was quite accurate.
But hey, never let the facts get the in the way of a good little hissy-fit and outraged-victim orgy, because that’s what wingers do best.
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#89 written by Jean 1 year ago
Wow. I’ve never seen such division among the troops over at redstate and, like fili and her freepers, I’ve watched these troops for a long time. Recent comments such as:
“I think redstate and Erickson just might be working against us. He is working against everything conservatives stand for on the debt. He will get obama a second term. Now to find out teaparty patriots are working with him to say that tens of thousands of us want Boehner fired. News flash… We dont. PLEASE Stop lying. I do not think we should trust redstate, tea party patriots and possibly Erick.
I urge everyone to read the article that says Erick was involved with secret emails to blast republican leaders to vote against cut cap and balance.. http://www.rollcall.com/news/republicans_dress_down_jim_jordan_rsc_aide-207730–1.html?pos=hln”
and
“This is starting to look like the start of a third party. I know it would give BO the election, but if he does win, the GOP will be useless as they are now, so whats the difference. I have had it with the GOP for many years now, hoping and praying they would see the “Conservative light”, but my faith in them has faded completly. They have made their bed, now they must sleep in it!!”
“What would be worse is, if Obama invokes 14th amendment, and then we get no spending cuts.”
“Eric,stop helping the demoncraps. We have 1⁄2 of 1⁄3 of the government! We are in a position to influence policy but not dictate it! Stubborn refusal to take small victories now insures NO victories in the future. We need to take what we can get now and work towards replacing demoncraps and rinos in the next election, especially Obumble! Starting a civil war in the party now is just stupid. We need to primary the faux republicans and beat the demoncraps if we want change.Throwing actual conservatives under the bus is counterproductive!”
“Time to start primary plans.”
“No, they just spent the entire day shrieking and calling everyone who dared oppose the Boehner plan every name in the book. Have you read the other diaries today? We have got people furious over people pointing out the accounting gimmicks in Boehner’s plan. The WSJ took out an editorial excoriating us. Trust me, Erick’s “mental ward” comment pails in comparison.”
“Dear Obama: Please don’t compromise. Let 40 percent of the gov’t stay home in August. Come September 1, I bet most Americans will realize just how little they’ve missed. Then they will be on our side.”
“Most of the left, and increasingly it seems a goodly number of the GOP, just do not grasp the message of 2006. It grates me no end to hear the charge “why was it OK under Bush, but not Obama?” No, it was NOT OK under Bush; that’s why the Dems got both Houses in 2006. That was a major rebuke to the GOP, followed up by a vote of ‘no confidence’ in 2008. Remember all those ‘mea culpas’ from the GOP back then? I do, even if they don’t.”
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#91 written by rgbact 1 year ago
Actually, Debbie WS was talking about GOP inter– party dynamics, not any attempt to impose a “‘dictatorship” on America. She was saying (if you actually READ the Politico article) that the whipping and organizing on this is more like “dictatorship than leadership”.. ie, the leaders are saying to the caucus, “get your asses in line or else…” which is exactly what Boehner DID say. So she was quite accurate.
She’s slowly getting a record of more a hack than leader. She just had an incident with Allen West, which grew out of some slime she threw at him in a campaign. Then West send her an admittedly inapproriate email.…she runs to share it with all the media. Classy. Then she had a recent comment about Jim Crow. She’s quite the demagogue for someone in leadership. Again, thats probably why relative newbie congresspeople rarely get those jobs.
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hmm, rgbact rationalizing/apologizing for Allen West ~ first time for everything.
And let the record show rgbact in no way disagreed w/fili’s post, instead he deflected as per usual.
And it indeed is crazy that an inappropriate email/tweet etc. by a politician would be revealed ~ shocking.
>
Time once again for Harry S. Truman to lead us out of this ad nauseam conservative minutia er whining ie
If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
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rgbact
Then she had a recent comment about Jim Crow.
Do you have a better term for the attempt to enact laws specifically designed to suppress voter turnout among the poor, the elderly, college students, and minorities? If you do, maybe we can use that term for what various Republican state legislatures are doing rather than “Jim Crow.” I’m sure Ms. W-S would be open to suggestions.
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Crack that whip, Devo-man.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/60125.html
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Monotreme,
Rightists like the CBO, polls, and other sources of data, when their beliefs are reinforced. Otherwise, not so much.
To be fair, not just rightists. All of us. One of these days, when politics are a little cooler, I have to write that blog post on Cognitive Dissonance that I’ve been gathering material on.
My last post over at Seven Deadly Synapses touches on it briefly. The Law of Less Work says it’s easier, cognitively, to continue to hold the same (wrong) beliefs than it is to change.
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About Michael Weiss (322 posts)
Michael is a jack of many trades, and master of a few. His varied background includes government and private businesses, both large and small. His experience in the financial services and computer industries has led him to computer security.






I tend to believe what DC has been saying all along. The most likely (and probably the best) solution is a clean, one-sentence bill that attracts all Democrats and a significant number of Republicans in the House, and then passes the Senate under reconciliation rules avoiding a filibuster.
That will get some House Republicans primaried, so the Democrats need to offer them cover in the form of a welcoming party switch or a tacit promise not to run an opponent in the general, so they will only face one election. There’s gotta be something that the Democrats can offer that 25 Republicans on the +0.3 “shelf” would want, and they get to save the nation from a crapstorm in the bargain.