Gardasil From Evil
In the September 12 Tea Party Express/CNN debate, Representative Michele Bachmann took Governor Rick Perry to task for signing an executive order requiring Gardasil vaccinations before young women could attend public schools. Gardasil is a vaccination which protects young women from the human papilloma virus, known to increase a woman’s risk of cervical cancer. Gardasil is made by the drug giant Merck, and Perry’s ties to Merck are well-known and were the subject of heated attacks at last week’s debate.
After the debate, on Greta van Susteren’s Fox News show, Bachmann refused to walk back her comments:
There’s a woman who came up crying to me tonight after the debate. She said her daughter was given that vaccine. She told me her daughter suffered mental retardation as a result of that vaccine.
The next day, Fox’s Sean Hannity (on his radio show) pressed her for more information:
Is that one of the side effects of this? ’Cause I’ve not heard that.
[Bachmann repeats the anecdote.]
I am not a doctor, I’m not a scientist, I’m not a physician. All I was doing is reporting what this woman told me last night at the debate. As a mother — my husband and I have five biological children, three daughters, and we’ve raised 23 foster children in the home. As a mother, I would not want the Federal government or a state government to mandate that my child has to have an injection just because the state says so.
Bioethicist Arthur Caplan has offered $10,000 if Rep. Bachmann can produce this woman who she claims met her after the debate. He emailed and tweeted his challenge:
If she can produce a case in one week starting today verified by three medical experts that she and i pick of a woman who became ‘retarded’ (her words) due to HPV vaccine i will donate that to a charity of her choice. She must donate 10k to a charity I pick if she fails to do so.
As far as I’m aware, Caplan’s challenge has been ignored by Bachmann.
What is this evil Gardasil, and why has it become the center of so much controversy?
There are a number of viruses which have been definitively shown to cause cancer in humans. Most are in the category of retroviruses, viruses which use RNA as their genetic material. A small number are DNA tumor viruses. Either kind of virus works by enslaving the body’s cells and turning them into molecular copy machines churning out copies of the virus. RNA viruses (retroviruses) usually cause the most damage to a cell’s DNA.
Human papilloma virus (HPV) is a DNA tumor virus which has been shown to increase the risk of cervical cancer in sexually active women. Viral infection is quite common. More than 1⁄4 of women 14 to 59 test positive for HPV infection.
There are several strains of HPV, designated with a number. The HPV-16 and HPV-18 strains are estimated to cause 70% of all cervical cancers. HPV-6 and HPV-11 cause genital warts but are not thought to increase cancer risk. Gardisil vaccination protects against all four of these types (6, 11, 16 and 18).
Bachmann’s denial of the benefits of Gardasil vaccination, and her trumpeting of exceedingly rare side effects, is part of a larger pattern of dangerous anti-vaccine propaganda which was detailed in Seth Mnookin’s book The Panic Virus.
There have been 35 million doses of Gardasil administered in the United States. Of those, 18,727 (0.05%) caused adverse effects reported to the Centers for Disease Control’s Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) as required by law. Of those 18,727 adverse events, 8% (0.004% of the total) were considered serious. None of the serious side effects (including Guillain-Barré Syndrome, an autoimmune paralysis which some believe is triggered by vaccination) were found to be higher than what is normally expected in the population. Over 4,000 women die of cervical cancer each year, and according to the National Cancer Institute, each year 2,800 of these deaths could have been prevented with an effective vaccination program.
Not only is the anti-vaccine position an extreme one amongst the scientifically literate, but it’s part of a larger trend seen in the Tea Party population which was strongly represented at the debate last week (after all, it was sponsored by one of the larger Tea Party organizations).
Tea Party supporters tend to be strongly anti-science, in contrast with the remainder of Americans who actually believe the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, National Cancer Institute, Environmental Protection Agency, and the overwhelming majority of mainstream scientists.
For example, earlier this month, a CNN/ORC poll asked if the theory of evolution is definitely true, probably true, probably false, or definitely false. Of those polled, 25% of Tea Party opponents believe it’s probably or definitely false; 39% of those who are neutral with regard to the Tea Party believe it’s false; while a majority (58%) of Tea Party supporters think the theory of evolution is probably or definitely false.
Supporters of the Tea Party are similarly at odds with scientific consensus on anthropogenic global warming (AGW). A large majority (77%) of Tea Party opponents feel that AGW is a real phenomenon. About half (48%) of those who are neutral on the Tea Party hold this view. But amongst Tea Party supporters, only 18% feel AGW is a real phenomenon while 31% believe there is global warming as a result of natural processes and a majority (51%) think that there is no global warming at all.
This view is also held by Governor Perry, who accused scientists of fraud:
A substantial number of scientists … have manipulated data so that they will have dollars rolling in to their projects.
The only problem with this view is that scientists are not, in general, wealthy people. Name one scientist on the Forbes list of the world’s richest men. If they’ve used fabricated data to enrich themselves, they’re clearly not doing it right.
I expect better from Presidential candidates. Is it too much to ask that a person who wants to become leader of the free world actually believe in science and technology?
Related articles
- Straying into politics (bio230fall2010.wordpress.com)
- Bioethicists Offer $11,000 Reward If Michele Bachmann Can Prove Her Claims About Gardisil (outsidethebeltway.com)
- Bachmann makes health claims about HPV vaccine not ‘speaking as a doctor’ (thehill.com)
- Michele Bachmann Links HPV Vaccine To Solyndra AND Obamacare (articles.businessinsider.com)
- Michele Bachmann, the HPV vaccine and the Republican landscape (guardian.co.uk)
- What does HPV have to do with cervical cancer and should I get the vaccine for HPV? (zocdoc.com)
- With Friends Like These …? Bachmann’s Former Campaign Manager Becoming Her Chief Critic (abcnews.go.com)

This entry was posted by Monotreme on September 20, 2011 at 3:00 am, and is filed under Uncategorized. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0.You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.
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#4 written by rgbact 1 year ago
A person who believes in pre-nineteenth-century science is not going to be making good policy decisions in the twenty-first century. This is a big part of the reason why other nations made great leaps in the world economy during the Bush Administration while America stagnated.
Why wouldn’t you just directly ask about specific technologies rather than using the evolution proxy? Ask Perry a question about NASA or the space station or solar or wind technology. I’m entirely puzzled by the relevance of evolution on current issues, I must admit.
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rgbact,
I’m entirely puzzled by the relevance of evolution on current issues, I must admit.
It’s relevant because a huge percentage of the advances in the biological sciences for the past four decades or so have come from an acceptance, understanding, and harnessing of evolution.
Imagine how long it would take for a flat-earth society to develop GPS.
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#6 written by rgbact 1 year ago
“Imagine how long it would take for a flat-earth society to develop GPS.”
Still don’t get it. If I thought someone didn’t know much about the civil war…I’d question them on the Civil War.…not some other event.…and then say that proved they didn’t now much about the civil war. The idea that evolution is a proxy for all scientific knowledge seems awful simplistic. I think Perry not using the internet would even be more relevant to gain insight into intellectual curiousity. Or “what papers do you read?”
Btw, I suspect Bachmann is doing nothing more than trying to gain political points. Perry has squashed her chances as being the “anti-Romney” and she’s a bit desperate. I think she needs to find a better issue. Mitt Romney certainly has.
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#7 written by Jean 1 year ago
For Michelle, it has less to do with science (although she doesn’t seem to believe much of that either) than it has to do with religion. Michelle is a part of the radical religious right wing of the Republican party - a teavangelical. The radical religious right’s Family Research Council spokesperson , a few years ago, summed up the reason they oppose the HPV vaccination, and their position hasn’t changed since.
A spokeswoman for the Family Research Council (FRC) says young women should have to deal with the consequences of a rapidly spreading sexually transmitted disease rather then rely on a new vaccine.
The FRC’s Bridget Maher said her group believes over-reliance on the vaccine for the human papilloma virus (HPV) could send the wrong message to young women. “Abstinence is the best way to prevent HPV,” Maher told New Scientist. “Giving the HPV vaccine to young women could be potentially harmful because they may see it as a license to engage in premarital sex.”
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rgbact suggested:
If I thought someone didn’t know much about the civil war…I’d question them on the Civil War.…not some other event.…
That’s a good strategy to use — if you know, years in advance, what all the topics are that will have to be addressed. In the case of a President, who’s probably going to be in office a minimum of four years, you might not know what issues are going to come up next year, or even next week. Getting a general sense of a candidate’s approach to things like science and technology — or separation of church and state — could be very useful, and is often a good predictor of how they’ll react to related issues.
I get that you have a problem putting things in context (we’re seeing that on another thread, too). But many things do actually relate to other things, and a candidate’s position on evolution has a wide range of generally-true implications in other fields.
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#9 written by parksie555 1 year ago
MWeiss — I think your statement “It’s relevant because a huge percentage of the advances in the biological sciences for the past four decades or so have come from an acceptance, understanding, and harnessing of evolution” is a little ridiculous. Care to name a few advances in the biological sciences that were made as a result of harnessing evolution? Care to state a percentage?
C’mon, let’s grow up a little bit with the whole evolution thing. All of us here are intelligent enough to recognize the discussion of creationism during the primary season as pandering to certain elements of the electorate. I’d be shocked if Perry actually believes in creationism.
And DC, your statement about solar panels not being made here is patently false as well. My company is making an awful lot of money manufacturing solar cell components in several plants right here in the good old US of A, and is in the middle of starting up another line to make even more.
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parksie,
And DC, your statement about solar panels not being made here is patently false as well. My company is making an awful lot of money manufacturing solar cell components in several plants right here in the good old US of A, and is in the middle of starting up another line to make even more.
Very cool. I stand corrected. I am under the impression that companies in Korea and India are leading the technology here — but you may be closer to it that I, if you’re working in the industry. Perhaps you can give a quick report on the state of US tech vs. foreign tech in the field of solar power? That would probably be valuable for all readers here.
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I’d be shocked if Perry actually believes in creationism.
Again I have found common ground w/a conservative apologist, as I also believe Perry is a clueless, pandering, flip/flopping teabagger.
Whose TX economic miracle has quickly turned into a mirage, go figure!
btw, if Bartles hadn’t taken his “balls” and left I’d mention to him Kasich’s Ohio unemployment rate went up for the third straight month as Perry/Kasich would make a great team, eh.
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rgbact,
The idea that evolution is a proxy for all scientific knowledge seems awful simplistic.
It’s not. It’s a proxy for the acceptance of scientific principles, which is a very different animal…so to speak.
I think Perry not using the internet would even be more relevant to gain insight into intellectual curiousity.
It certainly is relevant to gaining insight into (one aspect of) intellectual curiousity. But that’s quite different from acceptance of scientific principles.
I suspect Bachmann is doing nothing more than trying to gain political points.
Me, too. She doesn’t have much choice at this point. She’s not going to lose her House seat regardless of what she does, and so she’s left with throwing some Hail Mary passes to maybe get a shot at the White House.
I think she needs to find a better issue.
I don’t think she can.
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#13 written by parksie555 1 year ago
DC — I actually don’t know a whole lot about the solar cell industry as a whole. I just know we have done pretty well making some of the components (thin films) and are adding some capacity in this area, several of my co-workers have been supporting the plant commissioning and startup for the last few months.
For all I know a lot of the stuff could be going overseas. I have read some things that indicate other countries are spending quite a bit to prop up their solar industry but to be honest my knowledge in this area falls strictly into the “I read it on the Internet” category.
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“I think she needs to find a better issue.”
I don’t think she can.
Well, she could point out that Perry is George Bush only Bushier — but, despite what they claim, Teapers love ol’ W., so that won’t go over well.
You’d think, since Teapers these days (and even Republicans in general) now claim they didn’t like Bush, that associating an opposing candidate with Bush would be a winning strategy for someone. And gosh, I can’t think of an easier target for that than Perry. And yet, not one of Perry’s Republican rivals have taken that bait.
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#16 written by Rose 1 year ago
My first thought was “wait until these teapers get really sick and they want some advance in modern medicine to save them.” But, if they have their way, none of us will be able to afford healthcare, so advances wouldn’t matter except to the very wealthy.
Their plans to cut Federal research and social programs and let loose the hounds of the insurance industry once again, means we won’t have scientists to make advances or the ability for the average American to afford even basic care.
What I don’t understand is how the low– and middle– income teapers can reconcile their own situation with what is being proposed. Don’t they realize that they too will need a hospital one day?
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parksie,
Care to name a few advances in the biological sciences that were made as a result of harnessing evolution? Care to state a percentage?
Monotreme is better equipped to answer that, since he’s more closely affiliated with it. But the areas of which I’m aware are:
– Bioinformatics (they do genetic sequencing variation analyses, which depends on an understanding of evolution principles in order to harness it correctly)
– Drug resistance buildup in parasites and disease causing/carrying organisms
– Gene map tracing (used extensively in drug development)
– Phylogenic analysis (used in epidemiology to find “patient zero” reservoirs in disease epidemics, and to determine the appropriate vaccine to use in regional diseases)
– Ribotyping, which is used in finding infectious agents
– Molecule “breeding” in developing new enzymes, pigments, antibiotics, fragrances and flavors, polymers, and bacteria used for processing hazardous materials
– A ton of work in the treatment of cancer
– Software algorithm developmentMonotreme, care to expand on this?
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#18 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“I’m entirely puzzled by the relevance of evolution on current issues, I must admit.”
@rgbact,
I’m not. I know exactly what it is. Using the “evolution litmus test,” liberals/progressives have a ready-made scapegoat in the form, “See, because of those idiot God-believing mouth-breathers, we’re falling further and further behind the rest of the world in science and technology and being held back by those people who believe in the Genesis fairy tale.”
That’s all it is, another scapegoat and excuse to blame Christisans or God-believing people for this country’s troubles. As you so clearly and accurately point out and as I’ve suggested before, focusing on that at the expense of debating science and technological progress that is much more pragmatic and useful in our daily lives (sustainable energy, space exploration, etc.) or liberals’ persistent belief in many economic fallacies and fairy tales as the foundation of their policies should worry us far more than someone’s individual take on evolution.
“Care to name a few advances in the biological sciences that were made as a result of harnessing evolution? Care to state a percentage?”
He can’t. It was nothing more than weasel-wording to advance his agenda.
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#19 written by parksie555 1 year ago
I question your assertion on how much of bioinformatics is based on evolution. I don’t quite understand how drug resistance buildup is a “breakthrough” based on evolution. Not sure how gene map tracing relies on evolution either. Based more on advanced analytical and imaging techniques more than anything else, I would guess.
Don’t know much about phylogenic analysis or ribotyping, so I’ll have to yield on that.
I think most “molecule breeding” is based more on the ability to manipulate DNA/RNA directly, rather than relying on evolution. Not sure how much cancer research is really based on evolution either.
And software algorithm development based on evolution? Really?
I still hold your assertion is more than a bit of a reach.
Sure, belief in creationism is a nice snarky stick to beat not-so-smart religious fundamentalists over the head with. But to pretend that when politicians talk about it that it’s anything other than pandering is being a little bit naïve.
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#20 written by rgbact 1 year ago
totally agree MR–
Its nothing more than the Bill Maher anti religion sect rearing its ugly head. What pisses me off is these retards then somehow grab the science mantle…as if anyone of them could even pass a college chemistry class. To them, if you are pro-evolution and you can use Twitter.….you are science savvy. C;mon , Al Gore leads this crew.….he’s the poster child for “you don’t actually have to have an academic record to be a noted expert on a subject”
Btw, I’m all for asking candidates questions to test general knowledge or intellect. That Couric question to Palin was actually pretty good.
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Mule,
That’s all it is, another scapegoat and excuse to blame Christisans or God-believing people for this country’s troubles.
That’s not what it is to me. I can’t speak for others in that regard. I truly don’t care whether someone else believes in evolution or not. I do care, however, when it spills over into the classroom. Teach whatever you want on Sundays, but keep it out of the classroom. None of this fig leaf of “teaching the controversy”. If it’s religion, it belongs in the church, not in the school. And if you teach people to fear and doubt science, you are setting your society up to fall behind in the sciences.
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parksie,
I question your assertion on how much of bioinformatics is based on evolution. I don’t quite understand how drug resistance buildup is a “breakthrough” based on evolution. Not sure how gene map tracing relies on evolution either.
All three of these depend on understanding (and in some cases manipulating) genetic drift, which is the fundamental element of evolution.
I think most “molecule breeding” is based more on the ability to manipulate DNA/RNA directly, rather than relying on evolution.
Some of it is. Perhaps more now than in years past. But we wouldn’t have had it at all had we not started with the harnessing of genetic drift.
Not sure how much cancer research is really based on evolution either.
I wouldn’t say most of it is, but several areas of both cause and treatment research are based (once again) on harnessing and understanding genetic drift.
And software algorithm development based on evolution? Really?
Yes, really. Closest to the areas with which I am directly involved are some techniques in computer attacks. Very cool stuff…and scary, too.
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rgbact,
What pisses me off is these retards then somehow grab the science mantle…as if anyone of them could even pass a college chemistry class.
I can’t speak for venues beyond this one, but I can assure you that there are several such “retards” who frequent this site who have a much better grasp of science than merely being able to pass a college chemistry class. That you may disagree with them doesn’t make them wrong about their fields of expertise. In fact, it makes it more likely that you’re wrong.
Food for thought.
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Conservatives are cute when they pretend to know what progressives think
It’s especially cute when they’re told our reasoning straight out, and then say, “No, it’s not that, it’s this,” as if they have Magic Psychic Powers.
(Now, queue conservatives to proclaim, “But, but, but, you too it too! and more!”)
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Rose,
What I don’t understand is how the low– and middle– income teapers can reconcile their own situation with what is being proposed. Don’t they realize that they too will need a hospital one day?
The argument I’ve heard from conservatives is, “If I get sick, I’ll pay for it myself.” Or, “I’ve got this high-deductible policy I love; in catastrophic situations, it’ll pay for everything.” In other words, they’re sure they, personally, will be fine.
They’ll admit that other possibilities exists: “If it costs more than I can handle, or if I’m stupid enough not to have insurance, then too bad for me. That’s the consequences of my decisions.”
Of course, when they actually are in such situations, they scream for aid (witness: Gov Perry and disaster relief).
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#26 written by parksie555 1 year ago
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Parksie,
Since Michael has called me out, I’ll try to make a stab at it.
I teach human anatomy and physiology to health professions students. We need to give them a background in evolutionary biology in order to understand most of human medicine. I can’t give a percentage, because it is part of everything we teach. Every foundational section of the course, and every organ system, contains some element of evolutionary theory.
I don’t care if one wants to believe (as I was taught) that evolution is a process directed by God as part of His creation. That’s a fine way of resolving perceived conflicts between science and religion. But to not accept the reality of creation, and to accept the writings in Genesis as a statement of fact and not an allegorical tale (as it was clearly intended by the author or authors) is just plain wrong. If God is speaking to us through the author of Genesis, as some believe, why are we to think he’s giving us a detailed account of “how He did it”, OJ-style?
If, on the other hand, one accepts the beauty and the power of evolutionary biology, then one can see human medicine in a much clearer way. For example, why does sickle cell anemia exist? Individuals who either have two copies of the sickle cell gene or those who carry only one copy are at a severe disadvantage relative to those who do not have the sickle cell mutation. It turns out that sickle cell anemia only occurs in populations from the Mediterranean and Sub-Saharan Africa, where malaria is endemic, and sickling confers some resistance to the malaria parasite that counterbalances the negative effects.
The entire Human Genome Project, and the molecular medicine advances that will come out of it, depend on an understanding of evolutionary biology. As was mentioned above, idiosyncratic responses to chemotherapeutic agents are best explained using evolution.
This is where the major misunderstanding occurs. Scientists use evolution as a tool, not as an end unto itself. No one will ever “prove” evolution. Rather, it’s a story that scientists tell themselves that’s consistent with millions of detailed observations. Another such “theory” would be gravity; there are other explanations of the observed phenomena, but none are as clean and neat as gravitational attraction. How would you feel about a Presidential candidate that believed that God forces objects together?
You might as well argue that hammers do not drive nails. You could argue that, and come up with a theory about how nails actually drive themselves into wood and attract the head of the hammer to them, but it would not have the explanatory power that scientists need in order to understand the universe. It’s that explanatory power that underlies most of modern human medicine.
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parksie,
Ya mean Skynet is about to become aware? Yikes!
It’s closer to a real possibility than I’m comfortable with, I’ll tell you that.
But with respect to the stuff I was talking about, there hasn’t been any particular focus on sentience. The focus is on using intentional “genetic drift” in code to rapidly create exceptionally efficient algorithms.
So what is genetic drift and how do we harness it?
It really is the fundamental engine of evolution. From one generation to the next, DNA “errors” get introduced. Sometimes those are fatal. Sometimes they’re in parts of the DNA that are unused by the particular species. And sometimes they’re beneficial.
When they’re beneficial, they confer an advantage to the members of the species that contain that “error” (which is now an advantage). Over time, that advantage crowds out the members of the species without it.
So we can harness it by, for example, creating increasingly harsh environments with respect to some sort of environmental toxin, into which we put cultures of, say, some E. coli. As long as the increase in the harshness of the environment doesn’t exceed the maximum speed of the genetic drift (that speed is determined by a few factors; one significant one is the speed of the reproductive cycle), the bacterium will adapt to the new environment. You just keep pushing that natural selection to get the E. coli that eats the toxin. That’s one way that we harness it.
Interestingly, these errors accumulate at a fairly predictable rate. Because of this, we can determine how long ago a particular situation occurred. That’s how it’s possible to track down a “patient zero” in an epidemic. It’s also useful in cases like the anthrax scare in 2001.
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Parksie,
Genetic drift is just another way of explaining spontaneous mutations. The vast majority of mutations are benign or unfavorable. A very, very few confer a selective advantage on a population, and that population becomes “favored” in the race to reproduce. That’s modification by natural selection.
Another important application of evolutionary theory, and where it fits quite well with modern molecular biology, is in the construction of cladograms. These representations of the “tree of life” used to be based on phylogenetic (i.e. observable, obvious) characteristics, like wing shape or nose size. Now that molecular biology has made it possible to construct molecular cladograms, we find a good fit between molecular-level relationships and phylogenetic relationships used in the older cladograms.
If one searches the sequence database (like Entrez, hosted by the National Library of Medicine), or if one looks at Online Mendelian Inheritance in Man (also at the same site), then one sees these evolutionary relationships. For example, scientists talk about gene homologies between (say) a drug receptor in the fruit fly and the same receptor in humans. There is some genetic drift between these organisms, but things that are critical (like many cell proteins) stay virtually the same between organisms as widely separated in the tree of life as fruit flies and humans.
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To amplify on Michael’s most excellent explanation, here’s a paper that traced the origins of HIV using a cladogram based on molecular changes in the HIV virus. Patient Zero is now thought to be a man from the Belgian Congo who died in 1959. He is the first known AIDS victim, confirmed by molecular analysis (i.e. seropositive).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9468138?dopt=Abstract
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#31 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“Conservatives are cute when they pretend to know what progressives think ”
And liberals are disgusting, narrow/close-minded, and brutish when they insist on scapegoating Christians and God-believing folk for all of society’s ills.
So while the specific motives behind what you’re thinking may invite additional speculation/interpretation, it is an INDISPUTABLE FACT that you and many others representing “the left” use the “evolution debate” as a way of blaming Christians/conservatives for the country’s problems (Oh noes! We’re falling behind the rest of the world because all these God-nuts are anti-science!)
FYI, I graduated high school with the Departmental Award in Science, the highest honor awarded for achievement and aggregate performance over four years of study in physical science, biology, chemistry, and physics. I didn’t necessarily expound upon any of those fields but I’ve used those principles in growing in knoledge in other areas and consider myself pretty damn smart and a productive member of society. So when I hear BS that insinuates someone like me is “anti-science” and contributing to society’s ills, it makes me want to backhand that person into next week.
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#33 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“Its nothing more than the Bill Maher anti religion sect rearing its ugly head.”
Agreed. Liberals should be ashamed of his militant anti-theistic tactics which serve as nothing more than a way of humiliating purported believers, but evidently they too get a big kick out of watching a person of faith get de-humanized by whatever ugly method it takes.
“Btw, I’m all for asking candidates questions to test general knowledge or intellect.”
Yeah, they (even Michael has articulated this) keep insisting that their only concern in the evolution debate is how someone might let their personal feelings of faith spill over into policy, not that they hold those feelings to begin with. I don’t have a problem with that and agree with them to some degree, but I see a far bigger problem being people getting into political office that are illiterates in many other areas of, as you say, “general knowledge and intellect,” and they run more pressing domestic (economic or otherwise) and foreign policies right in the ground. A politican who doesn’t understand the broken window fallacy or price discovery is far more of a threat to me (and society in general) than one who is skeptical of evolution.
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#34 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“Who called you “anti-science”?”
I’ve been lumped in with groups — via stereotyping and generalizations — that were considered “anti-science”.….and I’m pretty sure Armchair Warlord was doing his damnedest to paint me as that in that one thread a while back.….there’ve been a few other stray insults along that line in the more distant past, but unlike a certain weird, reclusive poster that resides in the Ohio area, I don’t document every conversation I’ve had so I can obsessively pull it out later like change out of my pocket to throw around and lash out at others.
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#35 written by rgbact 1 year ago
“I can’t speak for venues beyond this one, but I can assure you that there are several such “retards” who frequent this site who have a much better grasp of science than merely being able to pass a college chemistry class.”
Not you, mostly media. Evolution is the “get out of science free” card for too many liberals. At least global warming requires some study and display of aptitude. Not only that, it trivializes so many other more important areas of science.
MR–
Agree. I’m far more worried about electing say a president to revamp the economy who knows butkus about economics. I would love if some basic economic aptitude could be tested in the debates.
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Mule,
A politican who doesn’t understand the broken window fallacy or price discovery is far more of a threat to me (and society in general) than one who is skeptical of evolution.
I disagree. I don’t care whether or not they understand it. Rather, I care that they understand the limits of their knowledge, are open to information that they do not already possess, and are willing to incorporate the new knowledge into their decision-making. It’s a far more useful trait than going in already assuming that they know everything. I don’t care who they are; if they go in with that assumption, they are wrong.
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Mule,
I’m pretty sure Armchair Warlord was doing his damnedest to paint me as that in that one thread a while back
I believe he was trying to apply an unrealistic binary condition, but I wouldn’t go so far as to say that he was trying to paint you as anti-science.
But, yes, your past expressions of your particular religious views have led some to believe that you are a biblical literalist, and it’s pretty hard to reconcile biblical literalism with supporting science. I could see how some would have been led from that to believe that you are anti-science.
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Mule,
You took us to task the other day for seeing implications in the Heritage report that, you said, were not actually there.
Now you are berating us for saying things we did not say.
Pull the beam from thine own eye, my friend.
And once more, the strength and impoliteness of your language does convey your passion — but it does not put your causes in a good light. For someone to proclaim himself a Christian, and then to use such intemperate rhetoric, does not befit a self-styled follower of the Prince of Peace.
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Mule,
A politican who doesn’t understand the broken window fallacy or price discovery is far more of a threat to me (and society in general) than one who is skeptical of evolution.
I disagree. Someone who is ignorant of the analogies used by particular economists can learn those analogies. Someone who rejects science and puts faith in its stead may make a wonderful spiritual leader, but should not have a “finger on the button” or be deciding economic, social, investment, or military policy.
And you, of course, are free to disagree with me. That’s the cool thing about democracy.
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Oh, and let me differentiate between “understanding” a particular economic analogy, and “knowing” about it — and differentiate again between either of these and “agreeing” with the point that analogy purports to make. All analogies, of course, have limits, beyond which they are inapplicable; I’m more concerned about a politician understanding that particular fact than understanding any particular economic metaphorical story.
For example, someone who doesn’t understand the limits of analogy may take certain religious tales as concrete truth. I don’t want to single out any particular religion here, but I’m sure we could all come up with examples of extremism gone crazy.
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And speaking of a conservative who took his “balls” and left er hasn’t been around lately and didn’t know butkus about religion, although he “attempted” to discuss it in a thread re: science, Wally was slightly entertaining by default.
And as someone referenced me above
another amusing tidbit from the no science please thread:He doesn’t have to worry about me making any proclamations about ignoring or not ignoring him.….I“ll address him directly or indirectly as I see fit.….and I’ll talk to and about him in such a way to make it clear that I think he is on the same playing field as smelly and disease-ridden vermin, literally among the dregs of society.
Again, as long as he’s payin’ total attention to everything I say ~ “I put a spell on you because you’re mine.”
btw, kinda amusin’ when said fool says he’s gonna totally ignore you and not ignore you ad nauseam …
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#42 written by Mainer 1 year ago
I think I’m starting to understand how Rick Perry piled up a 2.4 GPA in Animal Science as an Aggie. It must have been hard to do much better than that when you start out by dismissing a good portion of what your instructors are saying. I’m guessing it being Animal and Science that evolutionary factors were discussed often. Must have been a traumatic time for the wee lad.
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#43 written by oJ 1 year ago
Mule,
So while the specific motives behind what you’re thinking may invite additional speculation/interpretation, it is an INDISPUTABLE FACT that you and many others representing “the left” use the “evolution debate” as a way of blaming Christians/conservatives for the country’s problems (Oh noes! We’re falling behind the rest of the world because all these God-nuts are anti-science!)
I would like to offer my personal observation on this if you will be so kind as to permit me.
I firmly believe that much shrillness from the left has sources from the propensity of certain elements of our society to confuse and even conflate the concepts of hypothesis, theory, theorem and axiom. I would go so far as to say much of the confusion is deliberate and that strict adherents to scientific ethics and principles are being exploited by these same people.
You see, evolution, global warming and gravity are only theories at this stage of humanity’s composite knowledge. That simply means we do not currently possess precise, testable, provable math or calculus formulas that perfectly describe these phenomena. For now, we have to rely on empirical data to support the theories.
The more confirming empirical data we acquire the closer these theories approach the status of being axioms. However, they very well may not attain theorem status in our lifetimes. That said, would you, today, be significantly heartened by the knowledge that gravity has no immutable scientific proof if compelled to jump from the 94th floor of a burning tower?
Our global scientific community has amassed, tested and quantified enough empirical data, and tested enough hypothesis at this point, that evolution is really not debatable within the greater scientific community. It is accepted as a blurry fact that requires more examination, definition and refinement to bring focus.
Above mentioned elements of our society continue to seize on very minor details and (sometimes old and settled) discrepancies or voids in the gathered evidence to create the image of uncertainty or dissent where there is none.
All this has nothing to do with religion except to the extent where vociferous dissenters attempt to use untestable, unquantifiable, faith-based alternatives as further proof that science is wrong.
If you or anyone else should prominently change tactics such as to take biblical passages regarding almost any faith based teaching and propose one or more reasonable scientific hypothesis and some corresponding set of impartial scientific tests designed to verify or discredit said hypothesis I fully expect the political left would quiet on the particular subject matter until the results are in and quantified.
I cannot speak for our country’s media or those of other political orientation.
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#44 written by Armchair Warlord 1 year ago
Mike,
I never actually concluded that Mule is a biblical literalist, I merely pointed out that his acceptance of evolution in biology is sufficiently minimalist that it’s compatible with a literal reading of Genesis.
But that’s like accusing me of being a neoconservative because I’m a defense hawk. There’s a whole lot more to the position than that one thing. For instance a biblical literalist would have to believe, against all archaeological evidence, that the events of Exodus were literally true. Some people do, but none of them are Egyptologists.
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#45 written by Jean 1 year ago
MW,
“ and it’s pretty hard to reconcile biblical literalism with supporting science.”
That apparently isn’t hard to do at the Creation Museum, where “The state-of-the-art 70,000 square foot museum brings the pages of the Bible to life, casting its characters and animals in dynamic form and placing them in familiar settings. Adam and Eve live in the Garden of Eden. Children play and dinosaurs roam near Eden’s Rivers. The serpent coils cunningly in the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Majestic murals, great masterpieces brimming with pulsating colors and details, provide a backdrop for many of the settings.”
http://creationmuseum.org/
And a highly entertaining review of the Creation Museum — The Anti-Museum: An overview and review of the Answers in Genesis Creation “Museum” at
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#46 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“I disagree.”
And you and the millions of other economic illiterates in this country keep making it more and more of an uphill climb.
“Someone who is ignorant of the analogies used by particular economists can learn those analogies.”
Two things. Price discovery is not an analogy, it’s a process, a very important one at the heart of basic economics at that, and one very few on the left seem to get. Second, the broken window fallacy is only an analogy insofar as it’s referenced in that manner; it too is a core principle that few — both right and left — seem to get in that you can’t create prosperity through destruction. Funny how something that sounds so common sense would leave so many bamboozled.
“I merely pointed out that his acceptance of evolution in biology is sufficiently minimalist that it’s compatible with a literal reading of Genesis.”
Yes, you were pointing things out, though nothing of substance, about me or anyone else, just your vapid opinions. Despite your constant badgering of me on the subject, you don’t have the slightest clue about what I believe as it relates to creation, evolution, and all tangential topics associated with the two, and I further contend you remain one of the least-informed yet self-aggrandizing jerks to parade through this blog.
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#47 written by Max aka Birdpilot 1 year ago
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Except Wally, who knows it all having received several degrees from the nations most esteemed universities, but still doesn’t know squat re: religion …
And to Wally’s credit, he says theology is not an area of expertise.
Again, teabaggers/Reps can interpret the Bible every which way to Sunday depending on their nefarious political motives/agenda. Jerry Falwell/Pat Robertson et al conservative shysters/grifters/charlatans have made a cottage industry re: said hate/division misinterpretation.
Apologies to shysters/grifters/charlatans.
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#49 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“Anyone who doesn’t agree with me, because I know it all and the Bible tells me so.”
I see you’re still struggling with reading comprehension there.…that, or being willfully obtuse. Either way, your comments show you’re far closer to being a know-nothing pest than an intelligent and curious poster.
If you’ll look closely, I didn’t use the term “illiterate” in any way regarding religion and/or science. I used it in reference to “economics,” and I don’t thump my chest with knowledge in that subject area because “the Bible tells me so.” I do it because I have a graduate degree in the field and work as an economic analyst/consultant.
Ergo, I’m in a pretty good position to call out people who, oh I don’t know, write science fiction novels (or something similar) yet peddle the same failed, unsustainable, and unsupported economic ideas day after day.
Feel free to try again when you can make a legitimate point rather than just toss out another vapid ad hominem attack. Or you can keep showing the world what an ignorant and sour cuss you are.
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Mule, my friend,
Being a science fiction writer doesn’t disqualify one from “peddling” ideas, of various levels of acceptability to those of different political bent. In fact, it’s rather a sci-fi writer’s role to push those boundaries. That someone who has studied conventionalized ideas might consider some of them to be “failed, unsustainable, and unsupported” is no deterrent, and, in fact, is a good measure of having challenged at least one stream of thought. That’s what we do. Thanks for the shoutout!
On the other hand, having a degree in a particular field does not make one immune to occasionally being dead wrong about aspects of that field; nor immune to having one’s ideological blinders steer one toward recommendations that don’t work in the real world, even recommendations that are “failed, unsustainable, and unsupported.” History abounds with learned and educated ideological disasters.
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#53 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“To whom were you responding?”
More DC than you.….I appreciated your nuanced follow-up that you are ultimately concerned with a politicians ability to be intellectually curious and open-minded and not disregard truths, scientific or otherwise, on individual blind faith (negative quaities that would likely make someone a poor leader), but I disagree in the sense that I think the left focuses too much on issues with very little bearing in our everyday life (and I maintain that many do this just to delegitamize Christians and God-believers) at the expense of very important economic truths that few seem to understand. DC’s response, on the other hand, was hollow and indicative of someone without a clue.
“On the other hand, having a degree in a particular field does not make one immune to occasionally being dead wrong about aspects of that field;”
Yeah, you should read Paul Krugman for that, but I digress. Seriously, though, I agree 100%, but you’ve proven yourself to be completely incurious about core economic principles and grossly misunderstand the basics of the field, so I’m going to trust myself (even in a drunken haze with a severe concussion) or others similar to me in education and experience far more than you on your best day. And your mini-rant suggesting you might have some good ideas and can “test the boundaries” because you represent a different train of thought is primarily just wishful thinking and empty platitudes. You are tolerated here with your pals but you would be laughed out of a room as an ignorant and clueless twit if you were to try and pass off some of your usual crap as “enlightened economic thought.”
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Mule,
I believe that DC is openminded enough that he’d have plenty to learn from you if you didn’t spend so much time in the mode of “it’s so freaking obvious to anyone who isn’t an imbecile”. But you need to have some patience and be willing to teach, rather than impatient and assuming you’re talking to someone who’s unworthy of your acknowledgement. One reason you don’t have a similar problem with me is that I already know many of the concepts that you reference, so there’s less of a gap to bridge between us.But just because DC knows less about economics than you do doesn’t mean that he knows less in aggregate than you do. There are learning opportunities on both sides, if you give it a chance.
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True enough, Michael. I don’t pretend to know as much about economics as someone who has a degree in the field. And not nearly as much as someone with a Nobel in the field. I’m more than willing to learn from both, and from many others as well, even (and especially) those I disagree with.
As far as being “incurious,” I’ve followed up previously on Mule’s suggestion to read about the Austrian school. Interesting stuff, and combative supporters. I’ve read a whole lot of things from lots of points of view.
Mule, simply disagreeing with you doesn’t make one either “incurious” or ill-informed (from a layman’s perspective). That there are disagreements within the field of economics, even on issues that you insist are obvious, tells me that perhaps ideology occasionally drives conclusions. But perhaps I’m wrong. I’m curious to learn.
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#56 written by Max aka Birdpilot 1 year ago
Actually, Michael, it was both necessary AND truthful.
Both dc’s “takedown” by Mule and YOUR response prove both the necessity and the truth. But for clarification: the necessity is inherent in the reminder of taking Mule with a grain of salt and being sure to sort through his pronouncement for any kernel of factually useful data.
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#57 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“Actually, Michael, it was both necessary AND truthful.”
The “necessity” is up for debate are more or less just an opinion, but there wasn’t an ounce of truth in what you said, so you can stop pretending that there was.
“Both dc’s “takedown” by Mule and YOUR response prove both the necessity and the truth.”
You going to stop talking in circles and give us a straight answer as to what you’re trying to accomplish? I love watching you in some threads get all indignant and even belligerent when you see fit and start flinging snot as you rear your ugly head demanding “straightforward and factual answers” from the conservatives of the group and denouncing anything they say you perceive to be evasive, filibustering, or analogical, but then you turn right around and get all cryptic and try and speak through parables and analogies yourself. I wish you could see how big of a joke that makes you.
“But for clarification: the necessity is inherent in the reminder of taking Mule with a grain of salt”
I’m pretty sure most everyone sees straight through your bullshit and takes you with more than a few grains of salt, so I think I can live with the fact that you think you need to do the same for me.
“and being sure to sort through his pronouncement for any kernel of factually useful data.”
And you’re free to point out instances where I’ve used data that wasn’t “factually useful.” Funny that you couch it in that manner and know better than to insinuate that I pass along misleading information or outright falsehoods. You at least know better to not do that.….glad I’ve gotten that much respect from you, if that’s all there is. And I’m guessing that by “factually useful” you mean that only facts that agree with your narrow and bitter ideology are useful, no?
I can read you like a book, you pathetic old man.
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#60 written by Max aka Birdpilot 1 year ago
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#63 written by Armchair Warlord 1 year ago
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#64 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“Haha, you don’t like me!”
It’s pretty simple, really. There’s not much to like about you, and I’d be willing to bet you have very few actual “friends.”
“I get it!”
Then it would be one of the few things you “get.” I find your attitude and wrong-headed stance on nearly every position almost sickening.
“Now I’m really curious — do you believe that the Book of Exodus is a historically accurate document rather than a piece of religious historical fiction?”
If those are my only two options, then my answer is neither. And if you think those are the only two options, then it is a further reflection of your substandard intellect. Nevertheless, I answered your question, so now I’m curious — do you believe in an omniscient, omnipresent God?
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About Monotreme (243 posts)
Monotreme is an unabashed liberal and dog lover who lives in an almost-square state in the Western U.S. He keeps a second blog related to his work as a scientist and author at 7synapses.com.








Apparently, yes.
This is the reason the question about evolution matters. It’s a good indicator of other beliefs. And when you’re talking about a position such as the President, beliefs translate to policy.
A person who believes in pre-nineteenth-century science is not going to be making good policy decisions in the twenty-first century. This is a big part of the reason why other nations made great leaps in the world economy during the Bush Administration while America stagnated. Example: We’re not making solar panels or advanced batteries; and we’re not doing this precisely because of the anti-science attitudes of the SoCons, who hold that the reasons for doing it are unimportant or invalid.