Block the Vote!
The Wikipedia definition is as good a place as any to start:
Voter suppression is a strategy to influence the outcome of an election by discouraging or preventing people from exercising their right to vote. It is distinguished from political campaigning in that campaigning attempts to change likely voting behavior by changing the opinions of potential voters through persuasion and organization. Voter suppression instead attempts to reduce the number of voters who might vote against the candidate or proposition advocated by the suppressors.
In the short time since the 2010 elections, in state after state with Republican legislatures and Republican governors, under the guise of preventing vote fraud, laws have been introduced which will, unquestionably, have the effect of lowering voter turnout. The specific groups of voters who are most likely to be affected tend to vote Democratic.
Is this simply coincidental?
The number of laws that have been introduced, and the scale of their effects, are too great to cover in a single article. One recent study described the efforts in Wisconsin, Ohio, North Carolina, Maine, Florida, and Texas.
In most of these cases, the change in the law would require a state-issued identification card, such as a driver’s license, to be presented at a polling place as validation of identity. One might see this as a trivial burden on voters, but it is something that will hit hard on people who don’t drive (most usually elderly, under-21, poor people, or inner-city residents who take public transportation), or college students who usually rely on the driver’s license from their home state or from a different location (hence with a different address) in the same state. Interestingly, these are the same demographics who are more likely to vote for Democrats.
In Wisconsin, the Republican administration proposed closing driver’s license offices in predominantly Democratic areas, and extending the hours and opening additional offices in predominantly Republican areas. It’s hard to see how these actions can be related to addressing vote fraud.
One could argue that the risk of increased disenfranchisement of voters could be excused or justified if there was widespread evidence of vote fraud, or if some recent close elections had been affected by vote fraud. There is no such evidence for anything like that in the recent history of the United States.
Even if the infamous ACORN accusations had some basis, what they amounted to was not voter fraud, but rather voter registration fraud, and the victim there was ACORN, not the election system. No one actually attempted to vote under the name of “Mickey Mouse” or any of the other fake registrations, so there was no vote fraud. The fake registrations were discovered and reported by ACORN itself, which one would not expect if ACORN had been trying to commit a fraud. And the only crime which actually occurred was that ACORN had been defrauded of the wages they had paid to the people who provided faked registration for pay.
These new voter identification cards, and the arguments about “preventing vote fraud,” are a solution looking for a problem. Since there is no vote fraud problem for this solution to address, its true purpose must be something else.
Is it coincidence that the voters who will primarily be inconvenienced, or even turned away from the polls, tend to vote Democratic, and that the states pushing these new requirements have Republican-controlled state governments?
Related articles
- Do New Voting Laws Suppress Fraud? Or Democrats? (npr.org)
- Voter ID Equals ‘Jim Crow’? Nonsense! (dakotavoice.com)
- MAINE: Citizens rise up to fight voter suppression (iflizwerequeen.com)
- Voter Suppression in Wisconsin? (outsidethebeltway.com)
- Courtesy Of The GOP, Jim Crow Is Back In A National Voter Suppression Campaign (themoderatevoice.com)
- Do New Voting Laws Suppress Fraud? Or Democrats? (npr.org)
- Photo ID voting mandate spurs Democrats’ fears, GOP scoffs (knoxnews.com)
- Victoria Coats: Protecting Or Suppressing The Vote? (huffingtonpost.com)
- Progressive States Network: Conservatives Push Voter Suppression Nationwide (acpp.info)

This entry was posted by dcpetterson on September 21, 2011 at 3:00 am, and is filed under Uncategorized. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0.You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.
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rgbact
I’m also very interested in Pennsylvania’s proposal for allocating electors by district. I’m amazed that the left is not up in arms about this.…as this seems far more detrimental than voter ID. Then add in Citizens United and redistricting. The left is facing many headwinds regarding voting issues in 2012.
You’re right about these things. California tried to go with district allocations of electors as well, but that was defeated.
These are more excellent examples of attempts by Republicans to affect who votes, and how it is counted, looking toward the 2012 elections.
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All of these proposals by disgruntled Republican losers are in direct response to Obama becoming president as it really, really pissed them off losing to an African/American born in Kenya yada yada yada. Not that they wouldn’t have been pissed off losing to Hillary also lol, but it’s far easier going after minorities, than a majority ie women.
Republicans really, really don’t like losing presidential elections and if by chance they do lose, it’s always an anomaly. The last (5) presidential elections notwithstanding:
1992 ~ 37.5% Bush41 an incumbent president who won Bart’s er the 1st Gulf War.
1996 ~ 40.7% Dole
2000 ~ 47.9% against a very, very weak candidate Gore.
2004 ~ 50.7% as an incumbent wartime Rep ran against a very, very weak Kerry.
2008 ~ 45.7% as the best Reps could come up with, McCain, didn’t have a dog’s chance in hell after (8) years of cheney/bush.
So again let’s recap:
The last (5) presidential elections the party of Lincoln has averaged (((44.5%))).
Recent presidential trends has not gone well for teabaggers … So by hook or by crook
conservatives will find a way to win.And speaking of majorities, a bigger worry for Reps as Hispanics are well on their way to becoming the majority ethnic group in America by the 2040’s. Be afraid, be very afraid!
Be careful what you wish for er too clever by half ie if 2000 FL was like what Reps are proposing in PA, Al Gore would have won, eh. Gore probably winning the 2000 election regardless.
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#5 written by rgbact 1 year ago
“And speaking of majorities, a bigger worry for Reps as Hispanics are well on their way to becoming the majority ethnic group in America by the 2040’s. Be afraid, be very afraid!”
Only 30 more years till your 3rd world utopia Shiloh! Oh, and I’m sure none of those Hispanics will ever date someone outside their ethnic group…like say every other immigrant group in American history.
Btw, here’s a little math test. Assume Hispanics gain say 8% of the population every 4 years, but lose 1.5% of the intensity to vote Democrat.…how long until you can make the GOP extinct?
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rgbact
Elderly people w/o ID’s typically vote Democratic? Really? I’d say suppressing the elderly vote at best is a wash for the GOP.
It’s hard to see how these elderly people have been committing widespread vote fraud over the last few years. Perhaps it’s these motorized wheelchair gangs, or those angry mobs of old women with walkers.
As for whether they vote Democratic — they certainly do when Republicans try to dismantle Social Security or Medicare. These are on the Republican agenda, you know.
The real question is, Why are Republicans trying to disenfranchise American voters? Even if you want to argue that it’s “a wash,” what’s the purpose?
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#9 written by rgbact 1 year ago
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hmm, if America had Britain’s parliamentary system, from 1954 to 1994 “we” would have had a Democratic prime minister …
ie no Ronald Wilson Reagan
~ I digress.>
Dreams aside, again, having grown up in the ‘60s, never thought America would elect a bi-racial, African/American Socialist, Marxist, Islamo-Fascist, Communist, wealth distributor, Satan, the anti-christ, the devil incarnate, Muslim born in Kenya, who wakes up every morning hating America and Americans, in my lifetime …
Soooo, everything else is just gravy, Obama driving teabaggers/conservatives bat shit crazy 24⁄7 notwithstanding!
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#12 written by rgbact 1 year ago
“The real question is, Why are Republicans trying to disenfranchise American voters? Even if you want to argue that it’s “a wash,” what’s the purpose?”
Alot of us consider voting not only a right…but one with some responsibility attached. Frankly, I’d like to know that the person voting has some basic knowlege of issues. I’d actually be fine with tests for voters…but I don’t think its practical. Voter Id just seems like the bare minimum of responsibility. You’re almost spitting on the importance of voting by whining about this most basic requirement. The vast majority of voters seem to agree. People seem fine with attaching some responsibility to a voter.
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#13 written by rgbact 1 year ago
“And why is it supported by Republicans exclusively?”
Is there any numbers that backup the notion that alot of elderly will be impacted? My sense is an elderly person is actually more likely to not have ID vs. say a college student or a poor person.…but I don’t know.
I said I think voter fraud is overblown. I generally agree with DC that its a solution in search of a problem—but thats politics.
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rgbact
has some basic knowlege of issues/tests for voters
Typo aside
that would really lessen voter turnout, eh ie a conservative Utopia
speaking of teabagger dreams.Although testing would probably eliminate most teabagger voters lol.
>
Again, Bush was appointed president in 2000 because many voters thought Bush was more likely to stop and help someone change their tire, although probably neither Bush or Gore ever changed a tire in their life.
hmm, a presidential requirement ~ tire changing time trial.
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rgbact said,
Is Mexico a 1st world country, 2nd world, or 3rd world?
But is it the presence of Hispanic people in Mexico that determines its world and economic status, as you appear to be implying? Would Mexico become a first world nation if they deported all the Hispanics to Nicaragua?
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rgbact asked:
Is there any numbers that backup the notion that alot of elderly will be impacted?
It’s easy to do some research with The Google. I haven’t found stats specifically on the elderly (after a whole ninety seconds trying) though I’ve seen them before. Here’s a few links to get you started though.
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#21 written by rgbact 1 year ago
“But is it the presence of Hispanic people in Mexico that determines its world and economic status, as you appear to be implying?”
Great question. Don’t know. What determines a country’s success? Alot of things. I honestly cant think of anything holding Mexico back…outside the society setup by its people. Not sure why someone would think people that setup a bad society in one place, can setup a good society somewhere else. The whole notion that the minute you set foot on American soil,something magical happens to you.…kinda puzzles me. It like hiring someone from Enron and expecting them to magically follow your great program.
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rgbact introduced an interesting thought that it took me a little while to ponder:
Alot of us consider voting not only a right…but one with some responsibility attached. Frankly, I’d like to know that the person voting has some basic knowlege of issues. I’d actually be fine with tests for voters…but I don’t think its practical. Voter Id just seems like the bare minimum of responsibility. You’re almost spitting on the importance of voting by whining about this most basic requirement. The vast majority of voters seem to agree. People seem fine with attaching some responsibility to a voter.
Does having a valid driver’s license really indicate a level of civic responsibility that has anything to do with the responsibilities of voting? This seems like a total non sequitur to me, similar to the incantation “Cut Taxes for the Rich ===> *magic* ===> Jobs!” where the beginning and end of the spell are not actually connected.
Nor does it seem reasonable to argue that since supposedly “the vast majority of voters seem to agree,” that therefore it’s okay to restrict the most basic and fundamental right that exists in a democracy — to wit, the right to participate in the democratic process. If we can simply vote, by majority rule, that minority segments may not vote — then what’s the purpose of a Bill of Rights?
All in all, as sensible as the argument sounds, upon reflection, it’s both illogical and pernicious.
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#23 written by rgbact 1 year ago
“Do you know the history of such a practice in the United States? It’s been done before.”
Yes. I said its not practical and I admit it could easily be corrupted. Its a utopian idea.
Anyway, I think I answered your questions a) Republicans generally prefer a more serious/committed voter. b) It good politcs—since perceived fraud gets drummed up more on the right c) Republicans hold far more power in certain states now
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#24 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“The whole notion that the minute you set foot on American soil,something magical happens to you.…kinda puzzles me.”
Yeah, me too. But The Left is hellbent on cheering on the idea because they vehemently want to see the demise of whites and/or Christians.
Okay, putting hyperbole aside, I think you hit the nail on the head rgbact.…this country won’t continue be great (a developed superpower with a high standard of living) just because we increase diversity and add Democratic voters (many of whom are being taught by their political masters that they need to be bitter and take what they can get — i.e. perpetuate the ever-increasing welfare state); it’ll happen when people buy into American ideals of freedom, independent thinking, ambition, perseverance, etc.
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rgbact,
I honestly cant think of anything holding Mexico back…outside the society setup by its people.
In other words, the only problem with Mexico is that it’s full of Mexicans. And, therefore, when the United States is full of Mexicans, it will be the downfall of us all. Is that about right?
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rgbact,
Yes. I said its not practical and I admit it could easily be corrupted. Its a utopian idea.
I advise you to use utopian ideas sparingly in this forum, only because they don’t serve much purpose. There are plenty of utopian ideas that are pointless in practice, such as libertarianism, communism, laissez-faire…they all work well as long as you are able to ignore their limitations. But so does everything else.
“The PowerPoint version of the product works perfectly.”
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The whole notion that the minute you set foot on American soil,something magical happens to you.…kinda puzzles me
That’s an exaggeration, but eventually, over time people who move to the United States become more American. Their children, born in the United States, become all but indistinguishable.
I personally know some people who moved to the US while in elementary school. Despite being of non-Caucasian descent, they cannot go to their hereditary countries without immediately being identified as American…even without opening their mouths. Why? Because they walk like Americans. They dress like Americans. Seriously, in the eyes of those around them, they couldn’t be more obvious if they were wearing an American flag!
You’d have to spend a decent amount of time in other countries to understand just how significant that change is. Call it “magical” if you want. Whatever it is, people do change when they move here.
this country won’t continue be great (a developed superpower with a high standard of living) just because we increase diversity and add Democratic voters
Nor will this country stop being so just because we increase diversity and add Democratic voters.
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#28 written by rgbact 1 year ago
In other words, the only problem with Mexico is that it’s full of Mexicans. And, therefore, when the United States is full of Mexicans, it will be the downfall of us all. Is that about right?
Ha, you’ll happily rip on rednecks in Alabama and their state’s problems.….but don’t dare pick on those foreign brown people.….its not their fault their country is a cesspool.
Yes, Mexico is a failure because of Mexicans. If you have other thoughts on why a country with loads of oil, awesome weather, and a free trade treaty and border with the richest country.….has so many problems.…please share.
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Indeed, rgbact wisely continuing to avoid direct questions aside, hyperbole and ad nauseam conservative generalizations are running rampant in this thread, as per usual.
Again, 2012 should be very interesting as a Republican incumbent wartime president used their usual scorched earth hate, fear, division, misinformation tactic to get re-elected in 2004 and only got 50.7% of the vote.
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rgbact
If you have other thoughts on why a country with loads of oil, awesome weather, and a free trade treaty and border with the richest country.….has so many problems.…please share.
We’d have to start with history, geography, climate, geopolitical strategy, international trade. Have you a few years? I could recommend some books, if you really want to get started on this question.
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rgbact,
Ha, you’ll happily rip on rednecks in Alabama and their state’s problems.….
Sure, but I don’t blame it on their ethnicity. I blame it on their politics.
Yes, Mexico is a failure because of Mexicans.
A clarification is in order. A country can be a failure for a number of reasons. Are you alleging that Mexico’s poorer economy is due to the ethnicity of the people?
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#32 written by Max aka Birdpilot 1 year ago
No, Mexico is NOT a failure because it’s full of Mexicans.
It’s a failure of it’s socio-economic system that has such a wide discrepancy between rich and poor, haves and have-nots. The very system that the GOP has been promoting these past 30 years with “trickle-down”, and in practice that GOP plan has resulted in the rich getting MUCH richer and the rest getting poorer..
There’s a reason they call the folks at the lower end in such a system “peons”.
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#33 written by Max aka Birdpilot 1 year ago
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#34 written by GROG 1 year ago
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#35 written by DrFunguy 1 year ago
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#36 written by DrFunguy 1 year ago
whole books have been written about the topic so I will leave it to you to look into it if you are interested but start with lack of navigable rivers and large areas suitable for agriculture with good transportation access… these are basic to the success of a nation and a large part of the US becoming a global power
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#37 written by rgbact 1 year ago
“A clarification is in order. A country can be a failure for a number of reasons. Are you alleging that Mexico’s poorer economy is due to the ethnicity of the people?”
I’m only “alleging” that people need to take some ownership of the failures they are a part of. Do you want people from Alabama to move to your state and proceed to do to it what they did to Alabama?
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#39 written by rgbact 1 year ago
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Do you want people from Alabama to move to your state and proceed to do to it what they did to Alabama?
rgbact, are you sayin’ heavily conservative Alabamans are overweight, lowlife, nonproductive scumbags? ~ Rhetorical
continuing this threads theme of conservative generalizations.
Indeed, as some generalizations are factually based, eh.
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rgbact,
Do you want people from Alabama to move to your state and proceed to do to it what they did to Alabama?
Your assumption is that someone moving from Alabama to my state would turn my state into Alabama. Perhaps, instead, the Alabaman would assimilate into my state. Perhaps one of the reasons this person left Alabama was a desire not to live in a state that was turned into Alabama. You sure are making an awful lot of assumptions about people you don’t know.
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#45 written by DrFunguy 1 year ago
“Ha, you’ll happily rip on rednecks in Alabama and their state’s problems.….but don’t dare pick on those foreign brown people.….its not their fault their country is a cesspool. ”
who is doing so? evidence please
“a) Republicans generally prefer a more serious/committed voter”
Now that is the funniest thing I’ve ever seen from you; Republicans prefer voters that vote Republican, period. And do you have any evidence of this (I don’t consider voter ID requirements to be such, they are merely attempts to supress the vote as the article points out).
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#46 written by clmbusboy1 1 year ago
shiloh wrote: “As rgbact did not address the last (5) presidential elections trending. ”
I’m not rgbact of course, but may I address it. I’m assuming your point is that presidential elections are trending away from the Rs. Please correct me if I missed your point.
Using the numbers your posted: 37.5 (92) < 40.7 (96) < 47.9 (00) < 50.7 (04) > 45.7 (08)
In 3 of the last 4 elections the numbers were going more and more R. The obvious exception was last year, where as you point out, the Rs had pretty much no chance. As long as Obama wasn’t caught on camera stealing candy from babies, and even then he still wins.
So in the last ONE election, the electorate is trending D. Facts are facts. Of course this screams sample size big tiime. In the five you listed, sure looks like a trend R. Where am I confused? Or did I totally miss where you were trying to go?
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#47 written by rgbact 1 year ago
“So you suggest that we make people who have no reason to drive get a driver’s license? I’m afraid I don’t understand your point…”
Ha, I actually qualify. In fact if it wasn’t for bars and an occasional car rental—I’d likely let my license expire. Seems like not too much to ask to get a state ID if you want to maintain your voting privelage though. Aren’t there other things you need ID for? Just seems not good not to have one.…like you’re playing to the lowest denominator.
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#48 written by GROG 1 year ago
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Where am I confused?
1984 ~ 58.8%
1988 ~ 53.4%
Sample size and many other variables notwithstanding ~ take care.
>
Also interesting, as mentioned, an incumbent wartime president could only get 50.7% as that could be considered an anomaly also, considering said incumbent received 47.9% when originally elected in 2000.
Trivia:
Nixon got 49.6% in 1960, but could only muster 43.4% in 1968 in a 3-way race as the bloom was definitely off the rose, eh ie he won by default. And the Dems imploded between 1967⁄1972 accounting for Nixon’s 1972 landslide as Dems retained control of the House throughout their implosion.
carry on
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GROG,
I’m thinking of all the reasons one would not have a drivers license, and none of them are particularly positive.
If one lives in a dense urban area (New York, Boston, Chicago, or San Francisco), they’re not particularly necessary. Cars become a burden in those places. I know several people who work on Wall Street and don’t have a car or a driver’s license.
That said, there are also those who don’t have a driver’s license for the bad reasons, too. But you should be careful not to read too much into that statistic. What percentage of African Americans live in urban areas where cars would be a burden rather than an asset? I don’t know the answer…do you?
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#52 written by clmbusboy1 1 year ago
shiloh wrote:
“1984 ~ 58.8%
1988 ~ 53.4%.
Sample size and many other variables notwithstanding ~ take care.”
Now I’m even more confused. Why didn’t you reference those 2 elections in your list. Certainly proves the mid 80s had a presidential electorate trending D. But for every election after that, besides last year’s decisive D win, the electorate was moving toward the Rs.
I don’t think the trends of ~25 years ago will have much bearing on the ’12 election. Shoot, I don’t think the trend from ’08 to ’10 will have much bearing on the ’12 election.
I’m honestly not being obtuse here, I just don’t get the point you were trying to make.
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#53 written by rgbact 1 year ago
“When it comes to voter eligibility, we have an obligation to play to the lowest denominator.”
Sez who? I think we have an obligation that elections meet minimum levels of security. We should drop that because certain people can’t meet that minimum standard?
Good ol Democrats.…they may be the science party…but don’t be making their voters have to go get ID’s
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#54 written by GROG 1 year ago
I have a lots of friends who live in New York City and don’t own a car because it’s a huge burden, mainly due to cost. But they all have a driver’s license a) because it’s a cheap and easy form of ID so they can do things like cash a check or board an airplane or rent a movie or open bank account b)because they rent cars from time to time c) because they borrow cars from time to time d) because they may be required to drive a vehicle for their job, etc.
I don’t know how someone can function in American society without a driver’s license and I think it’s a tragedy that 25% of African Americans don’t possess one.
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rgbact,
Sez who?
Well, me for one. But seriously, if our intent is to make voting available to all citizens aged 18 and above, then that intent includes an obligation to play to the lowest denominator of said set of people.
I think we have an obligation that elections meet minimum levels of security.
We do. Are the two mutually exclusive? Can we find a voting mechism under which they aren’t?
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#57 written by clmbusboy1 1 year ago
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#58 written by rgbact 1 year ago
Clmsboy–
You may be new here.…but I advise you to not waste too much brain power on Shiloh’s posts. He just likes to irk conservatives.
He also likes to relive past glories (ie Obama’s election), while complaining how the GOP wont stop reliving 9⁄11. Clearly, the voting trends are pretty worthless, as we followed up a huge victory for Obama in 2008.….with the biggest GOP House gain in 70+ years in 2010. Good luck fitting that to any model.
Anyways, welcome aboard.
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#59 written by clmbusboy1 1 year ago
rgb, thanks for the response. I consider myself an independent. I was truly confused about the point shiloh was making. It seemed like the data used didn’t back up the point trying to be made. Of course, as I said, I’m easily willing to admit I missed the point.
I also found it weird the significant 3rd party vote in 2 of those elections wasn’t referenced. Bush 41s 37.5 does look bad, very bad, but that ugliness is minimized when you factor in Clinton only had 43%. Giving Bush the elder ~47% of the 2 party vote. Still not that great, but that’s what happens when you break a serious campaign pledge.
I’ll duck out now. Again, thanx rgb for the info.
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rgback said:
Seems like not too much to ask to get a state ID if you want to maintain your voting privelage though.
It certainly is too much, if you have to pay for it. That makes it a poll tax, which has been ruled unconstitutional.
Even requiring that people get a free ID is a matter of intentionally erecting barriers. Why would we want to do that? Isn’t the point of a democracy to encourage participation?
Now, the Founders did have some tension between élitism and populism. The trend in our history has been away from élitism, and toward providing more rights for more people. Élitism also tends toward other forms of prejudice. I don’t think going backward is a productive idea.
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clmbusboy1,
that’s what happens when you break a serious campaign pledge.
I realize you weren’t paying much attention to electoral politics when Clinton was elected, but I certainly was. It wasn’t the “Read my lips” pledge that did him in. In 1991, he was unstoppable, despite having broken his pledge by then. What did him in was the recession that hit in late 1991. Although the recession itself was over by November, 2002, the recovery hadn’t sufficiently taken root for the voters to notice. That, coupled with the wild-card influence of Perot, helped push Clinton ahead.
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#62 written by clmbusboy1 1 year ago
Michael thanks for that. It was more an off the cuff comment that I shouldn’t have made. You are correct that I did not pay as much attention to elections back then since the state of Florida doesn’t allow you to vote at age 10, with or without a voter ID card.
My gut would have told me a 3rd party candidate would have taken more voters from the challenger (Clinton in this case) than the incumbent. Thanks for setting me straight on that.
You’re actually the reason I sought this site out, to read your thoughts, which are always well thought out and tough to disagree with. Thanks again for taking the time to reply.
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#65 written by clmbusboy1 1 year ago
Michael
I would lurk and occasionally post (definition of occasional is about 10 times) at the previous site. When you stopped posting there I just assumed life events intervened and you needed to curb your participation. After a while I finally figured out to google you and a few terms, and I was led here.
I think your work about a year ago regarding tax policy was extremely enlightening. With current events again turning toward tax structure, I think about it a lot.
DC, I did know Michael was a huge reason for this site’s existence, after reading so many of the posts. But thanks for the info nonetheless.
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Actually, “experts” believe Perot’s 1992 votes were a wash ie would have split evenly between Bush/Clinton, but the fact remains a sitting incumbent president lost votes to bat shit crazy Perot, who stopped his campaign and then started it up again.
One must also remember Buchanan’s primary challenge, never a good thing for an incumbent, but the coup de grâce was Bush looking at his watch
during one of the debates, giving the impression he couldn’t be bothered w/the process lol.>
Again rgbact, thanx for the shout out, especially considering you had a really bad day today dodging/ignoring rational questions, as per usual ~ take care.
btw, the Reps success in the 2010 mid-terms “could” prove to be their undoing in 2012 as the conservative, do nothing but despise/block Obama, boehner/cantor historic subterranean, lower than whale shit job approval rating congress marches on.
I’ll duck out now …
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shiloh,
btw, the Reps success in the 2010 mid-terms “could” prove to be their undoing in 2012 as the conservative, do nothing but despise/block Obama, boehner/cantor historic subterranean, lower than whale shit job approval rating congress marches on.
Have you seen the Republican response to the American Jobs Act? (Not Romney’s — Michael will have an article on that tomorrow [free plug] — but the one from the rest of the Party.)
I can sum it up in two words:
Do Nothing.
I kid you not.
The Republican plan to create jobs is to do exactly nothing.
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#68 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“There are plenty of utopian ideas that are pointless in practice, such as libertarianism.…”
Maybe there are some that do, but for the most part I don’t see libertarians arguing that their approach or ideas are anything resembling “utopian.” Most are realists but feel like their ideas truly maximize the individual’s and society’s freedoms, which should foster greater prosperity and well-being (higher standard of living). And it’s a non-starter to also suggest “libertarianism” is “pointless in practice” because it has rarely, if ever, been put into practice the way proponents argue that it really should. It’s often tainted or poisoned by the effects of crony capitalism or pseudo-socialism.
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Mule, the same things you say about libertarianism are said by “real” communists about communism. It’s never been put into practice the way proponents argue that it really should. In both cases, it’s because it cannot be put into practice the way proponents argue that it really should.
In the case of libertarianism, it is impossible to set a bright-line point at which crony capitalism enters the picture…a point I made in an article a few months ago to which you never responded.
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#70 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“In the case of libertarianism, it is impossible to set a bright-line point at which crony capitalism enters the picture…”
Sorry, but it’s just your opinion that it can’t be put into pratice in a meaningful way, and I hate that you can’t get your head wrapped around it and comprehend it either. I fully admit that in a pure (or as near-pure as you can get) libertarian framework, “crony capitalism” is going to try and occassionally succeed at “entering the picture.” But if you are fully committed to protecting private property rights and an equitable, transparent, and competitive market — as libertarians do — it should leave “the picture” just as easily as it tried to creep in.….but people are too paranoid to give it a try, even smart people like yourself, and it seems to be because they just can’t grasp what it would look like.
“a point I made in an article a few months ago to which you never responded.”
It’s obvious we disagree on this and aren’t likely to move any closer to one another anytime soon.….sorry, but I feel like sometimes I’m just wasting my breath (err, keystrokes) debating and pointing out why I think you’re wrong. Sometimes I feel like it’s pointless to keep hashing out the same crap and don’t feel like every time the subject comes up that it deserves a response from me. You’re free to believe what you want, but I’m going to continue to argue for a system that maximizes individual liberty, something we as a society haven’t done, and something I believe we’re suffering from as a result.
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Mule,
Sorry, but it’s just your opinion that it can’t be put into pratice in a meaningful way, and I hate that you can’t get your head wrapped around it and comprehend it either.
I explained why it can’t be put into practice in the pure way libertarians insist is the only way. I described the mechanism by which crony capitalism is inevitable. And you never bothered to explain how or why I was wrong. You just keep telling me that I’m wrong. Hardly compelling evidence.
In things like “maxmizing individual liberty”, you’re describing a fine guiding principle. But the devil’s in the details. And the details don’t provide such bright-line answers.
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#72 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“I explained why it can’t be put into practice in the pure way libertarians insist is the only way. I described the mechanism by which crony capitalism is inevitable. And you never bothered to explain how or why I was wrong. You just keep telling me that I’m wrong. Hardly compelling evidence.”
Sorry, but I find your explanations, whys, and supposed inevitabilities as shallow on compelling evidence. You may think you’ve outlined an evidence-laden case for why it’s impractical, but from my perspective, you’ve just outlined a feel-good story defending your own brand of socioeconomic policy and ideology and expressed paranoia about why another one won’t work.
“In things like “maxmizing individual liberty”, you’re describing a fine guiding principle. But the devil’s in the details. And the details don’t provide such bright-line answers.”
Sorry, I have a hard time addressing your concerns when you drop weasel words like “the devil’s in the details” and that you want “bright-line answers.” I can’t hold your hand and promise that things will be obvious as night and day (the supposed“bright-line” answer you’re looking for), nor can I promise to know exactly how every detail should be, but I see some obvious things we’re doing right now that ww shouldn’t — and vice versa — and all I’m asking for is to start there. You can keep spit-firing about how you don’t think libertarianism will solve 100% of our problems because “the devils in the details” and “there are no bright-line answers,” and I’m not saying it will, but I think it would go a long ways to solving some if not most of them.
Sorry, I’ve got shit to do and I don’t have time for a relentless back and forth, so I’m probably going to have to leave it here for today.….feel free to have the last word defending one more time the things you’ve “proven” and “demonstrated” and how the counter-arguments have been vapid and uncompelling.
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Mule,
I find your explanations, whys, and supposed inevitabilities as shallow on compelling evidence.
And yet, compared to your counterexplanation, it’s as deep as the Mariana Trench.
from my perspective, you’ve just outlined a feel-good story defending your own brand of socioeconomic policy
But it had nothing to do with my brand of socioeconomic policy. It had everything to do with asking the question of what happens when clear, binary principles meet the fuzzy logic of the real world.
I have a hard time addressing your concerns when you drop weasel words like “the devil’s in the details” and that you want “bright-line answers.”
There’s no need for me to rewrite the whole thing when the article is still there. Read it and give your counterexplanation of why I’m wrong…preferably in the comments section for that article. I promise I won’t ignore it.
I see some obvious things we’re doing right now that ww shouldn’t
So do I, but that’s not the point. I don’t think everything’s all perfect with sunshine and lollipops today. My point is that pure libertarianism is not achievable in practice, not that it would or would not solve all of our problems.
One last point about this…you may think you’re talking to me when you respond, and therefore it’s futile to answer me. But our lurker readership is between one and two orders of magnitude larger than our chatting readership (and, to my surprise, includes people from France, Germany, Korea, and other countries). They read your words, too, and can be swayed by a compelling argument. Yet another reason, by the way, to take greater care when tossing pejoratives at people around here.
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#74 written by Shyfting Paradigms 1 year ago
I’m fortunate this thread is already far off-topic, as I would have strayed off-topic regardless. I guess I should start with a hello, as this is my first Logarchism comment; I’m similar to clmbusboy in having come here primarily due to Michael Weiss. I’m a long-time 538 follower and the comments you (Michael) post there consistently add important topical information and value to conversations on that site. Curious to see more content from you, I’ve been reading posts here for a few weeks now and haven’t regretted coming to have a look.
My off-topic wandering relates to shiloh’s repeated posts about the last five Presidential elections. shiloh, are you suggesting that results of Presidential elections are a referendum on the party represented by the candidates? There’s a reason elections specifically to that post are so hard to predict and show such a great deal of variance. The President’s position in such an all-encompassing role creates a much more visceral response in voters. When voting for a President, an individual is more influenced by their vote for the candidate as a person than in a typical election where one’s vote might be based entirely on their political leanings or issues addressed by the candidate. A mildly unfavorable aggregate percentage in a 5-election sample size in something as volatile as Presidential elections is to me pretty transparent. There are plenty of legitimate ways to exemplify the shortfalls of the Republican Party in relating to today’s Americans (whoa Nelly, check out that unfavorable rating! {hey, look, Dems are almost as low — yay recession politics}). Can you find one of those to latch on to instead of repeatedly putting forth this red herring and trying to get a response on your terms? I’m a liberal-leaning independent myself and would rather see you stop weakening your stance in that way and instead get back to the more intelligent discourse I’ve seen from you elsewhere in this site’s comments.
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Hi Shyfting, and welcome to Logarchism. I’m pleased to have been able to draw you over here.
I agree with you that it’s really hard to translate individual elections (of any sort) to broader electoral trends without significant work. There’s so much noise in there that it’s necessary to bring in a large number of data points and a small number of independent variables just to tease out some sort of signal.
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#77 written by rgbact 1 year ago
Oh man, MW has a fan club. Anyways, welcome SP. MW is indeed a smart dude and although I disagree with him on most everything, I admire his efforts to compile thoughtful arguments and research.
And as I stated to clmsboy.…please don’t waste too much brain power on the Shiloh charts. You’re right that some kind of models could be constructed to show that the GOP is dying.…but Shiloh’s wasn’t it and was just for his own gratification. Feel free to present your own models for our review.
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#78 written by Shyfting Paradigms 1 year ago
Yeah, I certainly don’t always agree with him, but he always presents his information in a very intelligent way and adheres to a principle of brevity much more than I can ever do myself. I’m not really of the belief personally that the GOP is dying or even in significant decline compared to their opponents, but more that our political system in general is in turmoil. I feel that more now than ever in our history, the system has turned into a battle of wins and losses rather than an effort to improve our country and govern effectively. We as people are empowered to fix that and elect committed individuals who actually care and have the strength of character and leadership to effect policies that work, but my faith in my fellow American has been so totally dashed by the last decade. This country’s lowest common denominators on both edges of the aisle are causing the whole system to devolve into this oppositional, ineffective, inefficient monstrosity. More and more, my fellow Americans are ignorant and exude outright pride in their ignorance to protect their fragile egos and avoid having to actually learn something or understand an issue. Our “leaders” are watching their own backs by pandering to the uninformed and, increasingly, talking points are taking precedence over the actual issues and drowning out important changes. I’m hopeless to the point where I think it may take a severe and disastrous downfall of our society to wake us up and get us back to where we’re informed enough as a whole to hold our representatives accountable.
I’m in “bring it on” mode. I don’t care which side, since both edges of the tilt will probably demolish our society, but I’d like to see one side or the other get full power and be able to push through their entire slate of policies. The resulting apocalypse might just be enough to wake up our community of proud ignoramuses.
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Welcome, Shyfting.
I echo many of your sentiments. I do think, though, that you’re falling into the trap laid by the anti-government crowd, with the complicity of a media desperate to seem “fair.” If a candidate for office exclaims, “The world is made of curdled lard!” the media reports it as “Experts Disagree on Composition of the Earth,” instead of admitting, “Joe Candidate is Batshit Crazy.”
Thus, we have a false equivalence. One side has been trying to tear our system apart, by any means available, simply to win elections, without concern for the damage it does to our nation — and it’s been reported as “disagreements and dysfunction spread about evenly, enough blame to go around.” No. The blame is (and should be) easily placed where it belongs.
We need an FDR to run straight at these agents of destruction and obstructionism.
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#80 written by rgbact 1 year ago
“More and more, my fellow Americans are ignorant and exude outright pride in their ignorance to protect their fragile egos and avoid having to actually learn something or understand an issue”
I might offer a more positive spin. Its like if you hired someone to do a job you don’t have interest or time for.…then finding out they’ve screwed up.…then the more you learn, the more you find how much they suck, even though your’re still no expert. If they didn’t suck and did their job correctly, you could’ve stayed happily ignorant and focused on your day job.
I’d be careful blaming the client for being uninformed, rather than the provider for making them even have to get informed. I always try to remember that with my clients…no matter how dumb they are
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#81 written by Shyfting Paradigms 1 year ago
@dc I agree with much of what you say. In the elected offices, it has been the Republican side that’s tearing at the seams of our society more than the Dems. The problem is, that’s part of what’s been made necessary in this environment. If either side is given an inch, they’ll take a mile and say you gave it to them. Then the liberal edge of society chides our Democrats for not fighting harder and engaging more in this. War doesn’t happen without two participating sides. Are the Republicans the primary instigators? Yes, absolutely, the great majority of the time. But they’re far from alone in their villainy.
@rgbact I can see what you mean though I think of Americans more as the board of directors hiring our workforce rather than hiring a contractor. We need to be more invested in these hiring decisions.
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#82 written by rgbact 1 year ago
“I can see what you mean though I think of Americans more as the board of directors hiring our workforce rather than hiring a contractor. We need to be more invested in these hiring decisions.”
Either way. If your BOD, or your client, or your 9 to 5 boss start asking more questions about your work.….its a safe bet they don’t think you’re doing a great job and mocking them for their not being able to do it either is probably not the best strategy.
The Senate Dems haven’t done a budget in 2 years. Is this a task that voters should just expect to be done without having to monitor it daily? I have companies that I invest in and I don’t monitor whether they can even complete basic reporting functions. Same goes for the debt extension.
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As I have said a few
times a political blog is nothing if not for redundancy, eh
ie discussing the same topics ad nauseam to no discernible/positive result.
Anyway, presidential politics is not rocket science and really quite basic: one party fucks up and is replaced by the other party. Now comes the rub er variables ~ $$$, message, nominee likability/intelligence/superficiality, power of incumbency. Yes Virginia a presidential vote is a personal vote often having little to do w/party platforms as one is voting for a C-in-C, in effect, the power of incumbency.My take: Do voters continue to blame Obama as they did in the 2010 mid-terms for all the countries problems or does it shift to boehner/cantor’s do nothing congress which ran on job creation in 2010 and hasn’t done squat to fix the problem.
Again, messaging, $$$, etc. as re: to the open-minded rational, independent presidential voter.
As to the 44.5% Rep average in the last (5) elections, it has more to do w/turdblossom’s absurdity of a permanent Rep majority and wingers sayin’ this is a center right country.
Now as to trends, America has never elected an African/American president before, eh which is to its credit and discredit as opposition racial overtones have been in full bloom as a result. Reps would say, gee that worked out well electing a Black man, to which I would respond electing Republican whitey cheney/bush worked out well also.
The yin and yang of politics and political blogs.
Am I still on topic and speaking of redundancy, ethanol was discussed in a previous thread er déjà vu all over again ie nothing I haven’t heard before while frequenting political blogs on a regular basis since 2003.
Before I forget, pandering aside, MW would make a very good 1st/2nd/3rd grade teacher as he has infinite patience and I’ll leave it there.
hmm, time for another thread about abortion, creationism/evolution, etc. etc. as there’s nothing new under the sun.
Did I mention after Obama’s election everything else is just gravy.
Re: the economy, don’t know whether it was AW or Chris Rich or both who mentioned this is the new normal ’cause folks, most jobs just ain’t comin’ back.
ok, since I’ve discussed a plethora of topics, why not internet trolls of all types. Yes Virginia, they do make a blog more interesting by definition.
Again, the yin and yang of political blogging …
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#84 written by Shyfting Paradigms 1 year ago
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rgbact
The Senate Dems haven’t done a budget in 2 years.
So what? Seems to me the government didn’t shut down when the Democrats were in charge. Didn’t even almost shut down. Wasn’t even threatened to shut down. Needed stuff got paid for. Everything kept running. And the economy improved (slowly, but it did). Who cares if a formal “budget” got enacted? The Republicans in the Senate would have filibustered it anyway.
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#87 written by rgbact 1 year ago
“So what? Seems to me the government didn’t shut down when the Democrats were in charge. Didn’t even almost shut down. Wasn’t even threatened to shut down. Needed stuff got paid for”
My guess is many voters that are concerned about the deficit, would like a Congress that has runup the biggest deficits in history to start producing budgets (as required) rather than just running on autopilot. Boy, its like 2010 didn’t even happen. Keep on keeping on. Why change.
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My guess is, most voters understand that the “biggest deficits in history” are the echoes of the Republican mismanagement of 2001–2008 (oh, wait, that’s not a guess — latest polls show the majority blames Bush for the current state of the economy) and realize that extraordinary times and extraordinary measures were (and are) needed to clean up the mess.
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About dcpetterson (187 posts)
D. C. Petterson is a novelist and a software consultant in Minnesota who has been writing science fiction since the age of six. He is the author of A Melancholy Humour, Rune Song and Still Life. He lives with his wife, two dogs, two cats, and a lizard, and insists that grandchildren are the reward for having survived teenagers. When not writing stories or software, he plays guitar and piano, engages in political debate, and reads a lot of history and physics texts—for fun. Follow on Twitter @dcpetterson







Elderly people w/o ID’s typically vote Democratic? Really? I’d say suppressing the elderly vote at best is a wash for the GOP.
Thanks for the post. I’ve always thought voter fraud was overstated and typically was just sour grapes from the losing side–but I have nothing to base that on. That said, if you’re going to take responsibility for shaping our govt’s policy, you should at least meet some minimum requirements. Seems most people agree, as I’ve seen polls that show 70%+ of people approve of these laws. Givn that, liberals need to do what they typically do when public opinion is against their ideas.…go court shopping to get judges to implement laws that the people hate.
I’m also very interested in Pennsylvania’s proposal for allocating electors by district. I’m amazed that the left is not up in arms about this.…as this seems far more detrimental than voter ID. Then add in Citizens United and redistricting. The left is facing many headwinds regarding voting issues in 2012.