The Dark Side of Personal Responsibility
I’ll admit it…I support personal responsibility. I don’t want to pay for the irresponsible actions of others. I want people to succeed or fail based on the merits of their actions.
It all makes me sound like a Republican, doesn’t it?
See, the problem with people being able to collect on success while not having to pay for failure is that it creates what’s called a “moral hazard”. People behave differently when they have little or nothing to lose, and much to gain.
Imagine if you could play blackjack, and got to collect all winnings, but only had to pay half of your losses. Suddenly, you’re doubling down on many more hands, and winning large sums of money. If you weren’t fully aware that half of your losses were covered by someone else, you might even conclude that you’re winning due to particularly clever behavior on your part, rather than due to the market distortion that arose from the protections.
Moral hazards create all sorts of destructive phenomena. Perhaps the most significant of the past decade came in the real estate boom, which was fueled by a whole series of moral hazards created at nearly every layer of the transaction. I’ll talk more about that in a future article.
For now, though, I’ll merely reiterate that I am very much in favor of people bearing the consequences of their decisions.
But we live in a society, which means that nobody bears those consequences alone.
As a simple example, let’s say that I bought a house in 2005. I had a good paying steady job, got a 30-year fixed mortgage with 20 percent down, and got a decent deal on the house. I did everything right, and by the book.
Through no fault of my own, a bunch of other people bought in the same neighborhood, getting 30-year five-and-one neg-am option ARMs with no money down. That’s where they get a mortgage that, for the first five years, allows them to pay less than the full interest payment, on a low teaser rate. After those five years are up, they have to pay as if it were a new 25-year adjustable rate mortgage, with monthly payments of both interest and a portion of the principal.
These other people were expecting to refinance at the end of the five years, getting a new mortgage similar to the old one. But they weren’t able to refinance, and suddenly found themselves unable to make the mortgage payments. And since they had negative amortization, they owed more on the house than it was worth. Since they couldn’t sell the house, they were forced to go into foreclosure.
A bunch of this happened in my neighborhood, which brought the value of my own home down to less than I had paid for it. Meanwhile, all of these people had less to spend, given their new mortgage situation, and so their reduced spending caused my employer to lay people off, including me.
I did everything right, and yet I’m being punished because other people didn’t do everything right. So my being responsible didn’t help me in the end.
Now, given that there is collateral damage caused by other people’s irresponsible behavior, what should be done about it?
And this is but one example.
We have the medical examples as well. Left to their own devices, many people tend to be medically underinsured or uninsured altogether. The odds are relatively slim that they will find themselves in need of medical care that they cannot afford, but a high deductible policy causes huge problems when they find themselves in need of paying for the big stuff. Do we let these people die because they rolled the dice and up came snake eyes? If we don’t, then we have already agreed to create a moral hazard.
We are left, then, with the following choices:
- leaving untreated those underinsured and uninsured citizens
- requiring everyone to be covered
- treating the underinsured and uninsured, and leaving the responsible people to pick up the tab
Prior to the PPACA, we chose option 3. As health care costs rose, an ever larger percentage of the population became underinsured or uninsured, driving up everyone else’s costs. Eliminating this moral hazard requires either everyone to be covered (option 2), or refusing treatment to the underinsured and uninsured (option 1). I far prefer option 2, which is close to the PPACA model.
And what about the other basics, like food and housing? Social safety nets like unemployment insurance extensions and welfare programs reduce the urgency of looking for work, but what do you do when there are fewer job openings than people who are looking for work? At some point, if there is enough of a gap between the number job openings and the number of people looking for work, the gap cannot be bridged by mere entrepreneurship.

Seattle’s Hooverville during the Great Depression
Do we, in that case, choose to allow the unemployed to become homeless? If not, how do we avoid creating a situation where people are trapped in the social safety net?
Ultimately, it seems to me that we should avoid creating moral hazards, but also need to minimize collateral damage when catastrophe strikes. Focusing on either side without examining the other is a recipe for disaster.
For example, the failure of the Federal Savings and Loan Insurance Corporation (FSLIC) in the 1980s arose because the savings and loan institutions had their ultimate losses protected, which created a moral hazard that they exploited to invest in high-risk, high-reward real estate, much of it in Texas. When oil prices plummeted in 1986, the real estate market in Texas dropped just as suddenly, and the overleveraged savings and loans found themselves unable to cover the losses. Their customers didn’t lose their savings, but all of us had to pick up the tab through a federally funded bailout.
As I said, I believe in personal responsibility. But I believe that people need to bear all of their own responsibility. What I don’t want is the elimination of existing systems under the guise of increasing individual responsibility, while doing nothing to prevent extragovernmental systematic transference of responsibility to others.
In this regard, it is much like I had written about before regarding external costs. When one can push costs or risks onto external parties, it creates moral hazards within free markets.
So how do we prevent social collateral damage while similarly avoiding the exploitation of moral hazards? In other words, how to we ensure that personal responsibility cannot be avoided by intentionally passing risk onto others?
Any suggestions?
Related articles
- The Big Design: Moral Hazard, and the EU (themarketsoul.com)
- Personal responsibility in promoting individual health (kevinmd.com)
- A Realistic Fix for the Mortgage Crisis (alternet.org)
- Analyzing the Popular Proposals for Mortgage Principal Writedowns, Part III (zerohedge.com)

This entry was posted by Michael Weiss on November 10, 2011 at 3:00 am, and is filed under Uncategorized. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0.You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.
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#2 written by shortchain 1 year ago
The issue of personal responsibility is bound up inextricably with the issue of personal knowledge. For example, in Max’s question, did McQueary know, on sight, that what he saw was a crime, or did he only realize that the victim was underage after the fact and after he had had time to process the information?
Did the people who got those fancy deferred-interest ARM mortgages have a reasonable expectation of paying them off? Were they just being too optimistic? The economy was in the midst of an unending “Bush boom”, we were all being told at the time, after all. If we believed the people who were nominally leading our country — as well as innumerable hacks like Larry Kudlow and his ilk — the future was bright, thanks to the tax cuts of 2001.
Frankly, the list of those who bear personal responsibility for the 2007 financial disaster includes the people who did the ratings of the bundled mortgages; the people who bought the bundled mortgages; and the people who sold the bundled mortgages; the people who wrote insurance policies for the investments (AKA “derivatives”); Phll Gramm, who wrote into the law a ban on regulating the derivatives market; Bill Clinton, who signed the bill into law; his Treasury Department, who recommended signing; lots of members of Congress, both Republicans and Democrats, who voted for it.
So much of what goes on in our lives is not only outside our control but also outside our observable universe that the question of what we are personally responsible for becomes too difficult even for a savant to determine.
The only way, it seems to me, to avoid moral hazards, is to make each person an island, with complete control of all the flow of information, money, and goods, between people. Else, how can you know who is responsible for what?
Yours, in perpetual uncertainty, XXX.
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An extremist might say, Buying a house is a risk. It’s an investment. It is always possible for events outside of your control to make it impossible for you to pay your mortgage, even if you do all the right things. If you buy a house, you are accepting that risk So, either you don’t buy the house, or you save additional money so that if Bad Things happen you can handle them — or else you accept that events might turn against you, and you’ll lose the house. In any case, it’s not anyone else’s responsibility to help you out if your investment goes bad.
Bear in mind, this isn’t my own position, and I find it heartless and offensive. But if I was on a debate team, I could defend it.
Similarly, the people at the recent Republican debate, the ones who applauded at the idea of an uninsured person dying because he couldn’t pay his medical expenses — It’s his own fault. Either you prepare to take care of yourself, or you don’t. What gives you the right to expect someone else to take care of you? Yes, even if you do everything right, Bad Stuff can happen. Who ever told you life is fair?
Of course, the problem with this argument it that it assumes that there is even one person in America who can take care of him– or herself, without living alone in the woods eating bark and wearing leaves. We are, each and every one of us, beneficiaries of a whole global society. We all already suck at that teat. This is particularly true for the most well-to-do, who only got rich because they discovered ways to convince everyone else to give them money, and because their products were carried to market on publicly-built roads, or because they traded stock over Internet connections that someone else set up, or because their parents died and left them a fortune. There are absolutely no self-made men (or women) anywhere on the planet.
We all benefit from living in twenty-first century America. To refuse to give back to those who have made your own life possible is simply another form of the same moral hazard; you want the profit from living here, but don’t want the risks or cost of doing so — that is, the obligation to help others who need it.
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Joe Paterno failed his biggest decision
“Finally, adults with backbones and courage made a prudent decision at Penn State.
Paterno was fired because he failed miserably while making the biggest decision of his life.
Told by a graduate assistant in 2002 that former Nittany Lions defensive coördinator Jerry Sandusky had sexually assaulted a boy, believed to be 10 years old, in the showers of Penn State’s football complex, Paterno did nothing more than inform athletics director Tim Curley and university vice president Gary Schultz of the allegations. Paterno never personally called police. His son, Scott Paterno, told the Philadelphia Inquirer on Wednesday that his father never even asked Sandusky — his assistant coach for three decades and who was once considered his heir apparent — about the incident.
Penn State president Graham Spanier also was fired immediately. Curley took a leave of absence and Schultz retired earlier this week, after they were charged with perjury for lying to a grand jury and failing to report the crime.”
Sandusky, Penn State case timeline
March 1, 2002
A Penn State graduate assistant enters the locker room at the Lasch Football Building. In the showers, he sees a naked boy, known as Victim 2, whose age he estimates to be 10 years old, being subjected to anal intercourse by a naked Sandusky. The graduate assistant tells his father immediately.March 2, 2002
In the morning, the graduate assistant calls coach Joe Paterno and goes to Paterno’s home, where he reports what he has seen.March 3, 2002
Paterno calls Tim Curley, Penn State athletic director to his home the next day and reports a version of what the grad assistant had said.March 2002
Later in the month the graduate assistant is called to a meeting with Curley and senior vice president for finance and business Gary Schultz. The grad assistant reports what he has seen and Curley and Schultz say they will look into it.March 27, 2002 (approximate)
The graduate assistant hears from Curley. He is told that Sandusky’s locker room keys are taken away and that the incident has been reported to The Second Mile. The graduate assistant is never questioned by university police and no other entity conducts an investigation until the graduate assistant testifies in grand jury in December 2010.>
Recapping, the main incident in question was basically kept secret for 8 years and 8 mos. ~ amazing in today’s 24⁄7 mass media. And yes, failed personal responsibility applies to many at PSU, but McQueary really should go into hiding as many comments at ESPN said he had a cushy job at Penn State for several years, doing nothing, because bottom line, this incident er sexual assault on a minor, was kept in house.
Very sad!
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#5 written by Max aka Birdpilot 1 year ago
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I generally agree. We do need to take charge of our lives. My weight excess is my fault so I do bouts of South Beach diet. It’s in my interest.
The one significant exception zone might be exploitation of information assymetry. If the problem party was conned, the remedy is to prosecute the predator counter party.
And, to me so much of what has happened in the great recession is some horrid witches brew of poorly examined assumptions like ‘house prices always go up’ blended with unprecedented saturation bombing of every imaginable con and hustle.
So we don’t want an outlook that punishes the conned. Frauds and swindles and forms of ‘marketing’ are powerful things. Most of our problems now are aftermaths of an imploded grand assumption. House prices don’t always go up as any alert examination of the trends over 100 years would indicate.
And then that implosion is amplified by byzantine multi layered swindles. There are defective product issues like flooding everyone’s guts with sugar and not much disclosure about the hazards.
So once you eliminate the swindle factor and the lack of disclosure, there is still a pretty big arena for the prudent application of personal responsibility.
You can’t legislate a bullshit detector but you can impose sanctions on those who would shred the social contract with some sort of cheating or stealing.
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Chris Rich,
I agree with you. But let me float the counter-argument.
Capitalism and freedom only work with a system of caveat emptor, that is, let the buyer beware. It is up to each of us to ascertain what is in the food we eat, what is in the contract we sign. If we are cheated or conned, it is our own fault.
If you want to be careful about what you eat, then eat only fresh veggies and meat that you prepare yourself — none of this processed food. If you don’t know the effects of a contract you sign, then don’t sign it until you hire a lawyer. If, after all your care, you still get conned, then it is up to you to sue the con artist — it is not the government’s responsibility to take care of you and to clean up the mess you made.
Again, I disagree violently with this point of view. But I want to put it out there and ask everyone else — What’s wrong with it?
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#8 written by curious jane 1 year ago
IMO there will always be the “swindle factor”. An individual who swindles is terrible. If they are caught they are punished. The grand scale swindle of the banks, the Ponzi schemes, the risky investments etc. had a big enough consequence to bring the nation down. I don’t believe that the hoards of people involved were not aware of what they were doing. Yet, very few are prosecuted and the sentences are so light that it is so frustrating.
“White collar crime” has an impact on so many peoples’ lives yet their irresponsible personal behavior goes unpunished and they remain rich. If I, personally, make bad decisions I am responsible. When big outfits make bad decisions it affects the masses.
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As I said before, the housing collapse was caused by a more complicated set of interactions than most are aware of. And it’s probably going to take a series of articles to put it all together. But that’s not really relevant to the question I’m asking.
See, no matter what we do to try to prevent collateral damage from poor decisions, whether it’s to prevent the decision in the first place or to try to limit the secondary effects, we’re going to miss something. I’m certainly in favor of trying to be preventative, but…let’s start from the assumption that the damage has already been done. What do you do after the fact to address it?
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curious jane,
I read this again, and had some thoughts about it:If I, personally, make bad decisions I am responsible.
Sure, you’re responsible in an ethical sense. But, let’s say you own a house in a neighborhood, and you paint it garishly, plus you keep junked cars on cinderblocks in the front yard. This decreases the value of other houses in the neighborhood. To what degree should you be held accountable for this?
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#11 written by Mainer 1 year ago
Go another step Michael. You have worked hard and bought a nice home in the country that is with in your means and you are living the life of Riley until some genius agbusiness decides to start a pig farm next door. Because the county is just chock a block full of Ayn Randians there are no zoning laws or any other controls and the state has decided to go all teaper and get rid of as many job killing restrictions as possible so cue the pigs. A short time later no one wants to live in that corner of the county but maybe the pigs and they don’t count as likely voters so who cares. Our erstwhile new rural denizens have a home they can no longer stomach living in (ever lived near a pig farm?) and that they not sell in this lifetime. So where is there moral hazard?
I am so damned sick of this whole moral hazzard I don’t want to be part of an organized society if it costs be a damned dime group. As far as I am concerned it is all bullshit.
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#12 written by curious jane 1 year ago
Personal hazard certainly overrides personal responsibility. Sadly we can’t control the moral responsibilities of others. That’s where laws for the greater good are neccessary. This anti-government, anti-regulation attitude is nuts. I certainly empathize with anyone living down-wind of a pig farm.
The foreclosures and vacant homes really confuses me. How do the mortgage companies benefit by vacating all of these homes. IMO they might be better off arrranging payments compatible with income of owners until times are better. At least they won’t be deadwood sitting there devaluating the property. I am naïve, I guess, to think businesses can operate that way. I think it sure is a lose, lose situation. I know a lot more work to be done to end this insanity. It seems captialism is good but without flexibity to adjust to current circumstances “therein lies the crux” . What is the solution? I sure don’t know.
I just think nothing will work without getting people back to work.
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#13 written by Rose 1 year ago
Re: the pig farm. If its presence devalues and makes Mainer’s home uninhabitable, why shouldn’t the pig farm owners be held financially accountable? This is different from people who buy a house next to an airport and then complain about the noise. Yes, this happens.
There is a difference, I think, between those who play fast and loose with others’ money, taking huge risks at no loss to themselves and individuals who are just trying to do the roof/food on the table thing. So many have been hurt through no fault of their own. They were practicing personal responsibility.
Obama was right to push for health insurance reform. Even (in some cases) with insurance, healthcare expenses are probably the biggest threat to the average American’s financial well-being today.
The myth of the welfare queen is periodically invoked by either the wealthy politicos or those who aren’t wealthy but believe that such hogwash is true and is hurting them personally. Welfare “fraud” is a drop in the bucket compared to the unpunished financial crimes we have seen in the past decade. I’m still waiting for Enron to repay my $700 monthly gas bill.
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curious jane,
The foreclosures and vacant homes really confuses me. How do the mortgage companies benefit by vacating all of these homes.
Consider the other extreme. What if mortgage companies never bothered to foreclose? Where’s the incentive to pay them the money you owe them? This is where the moral hazard comes in. If you know, going in, that you would never be evicted through foreclosure, you’d have incentive to buy a house that you cannot afford, with the understanding that you’d simply refuse to pay, and squat in the home.
So, of course, mortgage companies need to ensure that the borrower knows that the foreclosures are the real result of nonpayment. And this is ordinarily not an issue; an occasional foreclosure here and there doesn’t really harm real estate values in an appreciable fashion. But that system was designed with the expectation that foreclosures are rare and independent events. It doesn’t work so well when the events are dependent, whereby an increase in foreclosures translates to another wave of foreclosures in an ever growing cycle. At that point, forclosures can have the perverse effect of making things worse for the lending institutions.
But where’s that tipping point? How do you decide where it is? And, moreover, even assuming that you can determine that point…what do you do about it? Do you let people stay in their homes without paying their mortgages? Do you reduce the amount of the loan? And if you do, who covers that loss in principal? The questions snowball from there…I could go on for pages.
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Rose,
There is a difference, I think, between those who play fast and loose with others’ money, taking huge risks at no loss to themselves and individuals who are just trying to do the roof/food on the table thing.
Exactly. The former is the embodiment of moral hazard. If you get to play fast and loose with others’ money, then it’s just like the blackjack scenario I outlined. If I win, I keep the winnings; if I lose, someone else covers the loss.
Even (in some cases) with insurance, healthcare expenses are probably the biggest threat to the average American’s financial well-being today.
Yes, though that suggests that the PPACA doesn’t really do much, if anything, to lower healthcare costs. It addresses the moral hazard of people choosing not to be insured (for whatever reason) and getting their healthcare paid by the rest of us. But that doesn’t change the per-capita cost.
Welfare “fraud” is a drop in the bucket compared to the unpunished financial crimes we have seen in the past decade.
It is, but what do you do after the fact with Enron? It’s not like the cash is there anymore to repay those who were fraudulently separated from their money.
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Coach Bradley just stated that McQueary WILL coach on Saturday.
It was announced earlier today he would be up in the booth for his own safety and ESPN just announced he won’t be at the game period! Penn State’s last (2) games are on the road, so McQueary’s “career” at PSU is basically over and good luck finding another job.
Obviously it would behoove PSU to totally clean house re: its football program after the season is over … especially if they hope to recruit hs football players in the future.
Penn State’s nightmare is just beginning and will remain in the news for quite some time as the Catholic church knows all too well.
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#18 written by Max aka Birdpilot 1 year ago
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Michael
If you get to play fast and loose with others’ money, then it’s just like the blackjack scenario I outlined. If I win, I keep the winnings; if I lose, someone else covers the loss.
This is precisely how stock traders make their living. They buy and sell money, gambling with other peoples’ investments. They are able to hedge their bets such that they are going to make money regardless of whether their investors do. The lessons these people learned from 1929 were not that they need to be more careful about risky investments. It was that they needed to find ways to get richer even while purposely impoverishing their investors.
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#20 written by Valjiir 1 year ago
But where’s that tipping point? How do you decide where it is? And, moreover, even assuming that you can determine that point…what do you do about it? Do you let people stay in their homes without paying their mortgages? Do you reduce the amount of the loan? And if you do, who covers that loss in principal?
I think a workable solution would be for the mortgage holders to suspend interest for a set period of time (say, five years) and refigure mortgage payments solely on the principal. That way, the mortgage holders don’t lose money, they simply don’t make any for that set period. The owners get to stay in their homes which prevents the escalating neighborhood crisis and deals wth some of the moral hazard. After the five years, mortgage holders can renegotiate with an interest rate lower than for the original mortgage, or the owners can finance with a different mortgage holder. Yes the mortgage holder loses five years of interest — but they receive five years of principal payements they would have otherwise lost if the house had gone into foreclosure.
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#21 written by curious jane 1 year ago
Valdjiir
Thank you for at least considering a solution. This situation is so out of hand and the forecasters say that home foreclosures are on an upward trend, again. The vacant and decaying homes don’t benefit anybody. The owners lose, the neighborhood loses, the mortgage companies lose. It just doesn’t make sense that some “great mind” hasn’t figured out a “policy” for the current disastrous situation.
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DC,
This is precisely how stock traders make their living. They buy and sell money, gambling with other peoples’ investments. They are able to hedge their bets such that they are going to make money regardless of whether their investors do.
I’m not clear from those sentences to whom you refer. Are you talking about the brokers, or hedge fund managers, or someone else entirely?
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Valjiir,
I think a workable solution would be for the mortgage holders to suspend interest for a set period of time (say, five years) and refigure mortgage payments solely on the principal.
There are two problems I see with this.
First, contrary to your assertion that “mortgage holders don’t lose money”, they most certainly do. In most cases, mortgage lenders are also borrowers. They borrow at one rate, and lend at a higher rate. If they are not collecting interest on the money they lend, they still are obligated to pay their lenders the interest they owe.
Second, for those who were making minimum payments on neg-am ARMs, even paying the principal alone would in many cases be an increase over what they were paying before. And even if it weren’t, we’re so far down the path now that a significant percentage went from having income to having no income. This might have prevented us from getting to where we are today, had it been implemented in the summer of 2008, but it’s way too late now.
After the five years, mortgage holders can renegotiate with an interest rate lower than for the original mortgage, or the owners can finance with a different mortgage holder.
No, after the five years, mortgage holders can’t renegotiate with a lower interest rate. The rates have been rock-bottom for several years now. There’s no reason to believe that a lower rate has any feasible market on the supply side. And good luck getting a different lender to lend to you in that situation. You’re financially in over your head, and at a high risk of default. In normal lending markets, you wouldn’t get a mortgage at all. It was only because of the market distortions of the middle of the last decade that these mortgages were issued in the first place. It would be foolish for a lender to double down on that same notion, especially since they can’t get the “insurance” they had before. These refis simply can’t happen in the open market.
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Michael, there are a variety of professions who do this, the Gordon Gekkos of the world. Anyone who manages money for other people, or who make their money by trading stocks or currency, and who does it by short-sales or by doing the kinds of things AIG did — assembling portfolios, misrepresenting them, selling them, and then betting on their failure. There are an enormous number of techniques like that, most of them vastly complex, that are designed to make money for the perpetrator — almost always through perfectly legal manipulations — while taking unfair advantage of the people who innocently give them money to invest.
The point of these professions is to make money for the manipulator, regardless of whether the investor makes money, and regardless of what the economy does. It is a perfect example of the moral hazard you describe — using other people’s money to enrich oneself, while putting all the risk onto the investor.
An enormous number of these people got rich when the market collapsed in 2008. Well, richer. Many of them are “investment bakers.” Many are stock brokers. Many are hedge fund managers. They all made money (for themselves, and often for the companies they work for) despite the collapse of the portfolios and other investments they were supposed to be managing.
Mind you, I’m not saying everyone in these professions acts like that. But certainly many of the most successful do. Many “investment bakers” still were “earning” enormous bonuses — and the profits of the banking houses are still breaking records — even as the world economy collapsed. And all this money went to a tiny handful of people, while average Americans saw their own wealth and security plummet.
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michael,
No, after the five years, mortgage holders can’t renegotiate with a lower interest rate. The rates have been rock-bottom for several years now.
I suspect many of the mortgages that are in trouble are at far higher rates than the current “rock bottom” rates. I know of no statistics on that other than anecdotal ones, but all of the people I know with mortgage issues are no where near the current low rates.
The whole point of those “risky” mortgages we keep hearing so much about is that the people involved had little or bad credit. They certainly did not get particularly advantageous rates. So, yes, they could indeed be given lower rates than they now have. Whether they would be given lower rates is another question. But I think you’re wrong on this one.
I understand the notion that people who are higher risk will be made to pay higher rates. Perversely, that makes it more difficult for them to pay. What Valjiir proposed would make it easier for these loans to be paid. Unfortunately, banks have little reason to follow this path.
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DC,
Michael, there are a variety of professions who do this
The list you give sounds like flailing to me.
Sure, there are people out there who make money on commissions, collecting on each transaction. This is like the house take at a poker table. They provide a venue and a service. There is regulatory overhead necessary to provide that venue and service, and they are entitled to collect something for that service. If you want, you can shop around for brokerage houses that have very low transaction fees. Many do shop around, while others opt for the big brand names, getting a sense of more security from them. That these people take fees for their services is not a moral hazard. They’re providing a legitimate service.
And there are others who take advantage of unfair practices related to things like IPOs. This certainly does do damage, but the victims in these cases are the stock-issuing companies, not the rest of the market.
And then there are the fraudulent people and organizations that misrepresent the investments they are selling. As you may recall, I recently finished serving on a jury, where the core issue was one of disclosure and due diligence. I may well write about that in the next couple of days; it’s an interesting situation to ponder.
An enormous number of these people got rich when the market collapsed in 2008. Well, richer. Many of them are “investment bakers.” Many are stock brokers. Many are hedge fund managers. They all made money (for themselves, and often for the companies they work for) despite the collapse of the portfolios and other investments they were supposed to be managing.
I’m afraid you don’t understand how and why these people got rich(er) as the market collapsed. The story is rather complex.
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DC,
I suspect many of the mortgages that are in trouble are at far higher rates than the current “rock bottom” rates
There are two components in a mortgate rate. One is the cost of money, which is close to zero. The other is the cost of default risk, which is in essence an insurance policy against the potential default. The rates to which you refer are higher because they contain a buffer against the higher risk of default. The risk today is even higher than it was five years ago. There’s no way it’s going to be renegotiated to a lower rate, unless it’s one of the few lucky souls who have gotten a steady, higher-paying job than they had five years ago.
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Michael,
There’s no way it’s going to be renegotiated to a lower rate, unless it’s one of the few lucky souls who have gotten a steady, higher-paying job than they had five years ago.
Yes, you’re making exactly the point I was making. By refusing to reduce the risk of default by lowering the rates on these mortgages, the banks are maintaining (or even increasing) that high risk of default. It is a vicious circle — the people whom the credit rating agencies say are least able to keep up loan payments are the ones who get the highest rates, thus increasing the likelihood that they will default on their payments. They may well have been at greater risk to begin with. The higher rates increase that risk still more.
I’m not making any argument about “fairness” here, merely pointing out that some of these holes are very difficult to a consumer to dig out of, and the way credit works makes it more difficult still.
It would be possible to handle this some other way. As one example (I can think of several more): Set a single flat rate that everyone pays, a rate that brings in enough interest to cover the losses that do occur. Thus, risk is mitigated, and the people who have the most difficulty keeping up do not have their task made more difficult still. This rate would be higher than it is now for the people who can better afford it, and lower that it is now for the people who are having trouble, thus making it less likely they’ll default. It’s the same principle as insurance (which does have variable rates for greater risk, but the PPACA is limiting that range of difference.)
I understand the concept that “those at greater risk should be made to pay more to mitigate that risk.” It’s just perverse that “paying more” increases the risk further — besides raising the cost of credit for the very people who can least afford to pay it. I also know that this is done partly as a disincentive for them to use credit at all — which makes it harder still for them to improve their credit rating, since the only way one gets a good credit rating is by using credit in ways that the ratings agencies claim is “responsible.” If you are unable to use credit because the rates you’re offered are too high, then you can’t improve your credit rating to ever get a lower rate.
The question about whether existing mortgage rates for endangered mortgages can be reduced is one thing. Yes, they can be. As long as those rates are not zero, they can be reduced. It is mathematically possible. In fact, it is even possible to have negative rates, if the loans are subsidized through an appropriate risk-sharing program. You’re wrong when you say they “can’t” be reduced.
A separate question is whether mortgage banks can be induced to do this, or whether (for example) the public would go along with a federal subsidy program (which would help improve the general economy and help prevent further collapse). There is a great difference between can and will.
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#29 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
It’s just perverse that “paying more” increases the risk further.
They shouldn’t be “paying more”. There are two parts to a mortage paymnent — principal and interest. The only component they are “paying more” for is interest. You’re assuming they are “paying the same” for principal. No, they pay less for principal. They buy a less expensive house. That might sound cold and evil, but that’s what you do when you have weak credit. You buy a smaller house.
Set a single flat rate that everyone pays, a rate that brings in enough interest to cover the losses that do occur.
And there would be no incentive to pay your bills on time to preserve a good credit rating, because everyone pays the same rate. People would pay their bills sporadically because there would be no reason to pay them on time, and that flat rate would go up for everyone.
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DC,
Yes, you’re making exactly the point I was making.
You may think so, but you’re mistaken.
By refusing to reduce the risk of default by lowering the rates on these mortgages, the banks are maintaining (or even increasing) that high risk of default.
Does the higher rate contribute somewhat to the risk of default? Yes, but only marginally so. And that additional risk is already baked into the rate. Your scientific background should be able to relate to the analogy here of converging on a rate as the number of iterations of “rate increase begets increased risk begets another (smaller) rate increase” approaches infinity. That ultimate rate is the one charged. It’s a convergence calculation, and not an especially complex one at that.
I’m … merely pointing out that some of these holes are very difficult to a consumer to dig out of
Of course. And, yes, there is something perverse (from a non-fiscal perspective) about lower rates going to those who have the least need for the money. But it’s no different from the way that lower automobile insurance rates go to those who live in low-risk places, and who have better driving records. More risk requires higher premium rates in order to cover the higher losses.
I also know that this is done partly as a disincentive for them to use credit at all
Not really. As a rule, if there’s money to be made by lending money, someone will lend the money.
If you are unable to use credit because the rates you’re offered are too high, then you can’t improve your credit rating to ever get a lower rate.
But you can. This is a case where you get a small loan, and pay the high rate, as a means of establishing credit-worthiness. It takes a while, of course, and it’s not free, but that’s the way you get it done. That’s a big reason to be very careful not to get yourself into the situation of having bad credit in the first place.
The question about whether existing mortgage rates for endangered mortgages can be reduced is one thing. Yes, they can be. As long as those rates are not zero, they can be reduced. It is mathematically possible. In fact, it is even possible to have negative rates, if the loans are subsidized through an appropriate risk-sharing program. You’re wrong when you say they “can’t” be reduced.
Sure. And grocery stores can simply pay people to cart groceries out of the store, too. It’s mathematically possible. I’m not speaking of mathematical possibilities. I’m speaking of economic possibilities. You can feel free to try to redefine the words I’m using to your advantage, but it’s hardly going to change the concepts. It merely makes your argument look weak.
A separate question is whether mortgage banks can be induced to do this, or whether (for example) the public would go along with a federal subsidy program (which would help improve the general economy and help prevent further collapse).
At that point, what we’re talking about is using taxes to cover default risk. This, by the way, is part of the market distortion that is often pointed to as a cause of the real estate collapse. Specifically, this is where Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac come into play.
But as soon as you subsidize these mortgages, in order to reduce the premium charged for bad credit history (and, thus, higher default risk), you’re effectively punishing those who have good credit. After all, why go to the trouble to have good credit when you can get a better rate by having bad credit, simply because the government steps in and covers the additional risk? Maintaining good credit is much harder than being lax about paying off debt. This is an example of a moral hazard.
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Grog,
The only component they are “paying more” for is interest. You’re assuming they are “paying the same” for principal. No, they pay less for principal. They buy a less expensive house.
As I said, part of the reason for charging higher rates is to discourage the poeple so charged from using as much credit. In any case, regardless of the size of the house that is purchased, they pay more for that particular house than would someone who can get a lower rate. For whatever size house they purchase, and for however much money they borrow, their payment is higher if they are paying a higher rate.
And there would be no incentive to pay your bills on time to preserve a good credit rating, because everyone pays the same rate. People would pay their bills sporadically because there would be no reason to pay them on time,
Nonsense. If you pay late, then you have to also pay late-payment fees. If you pay late, then you wind up paying more interest, because your principle decreases more slowly. There is plenty of incentive to pay on time.
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DC,
Nonsense. If you pay late, then you have to also pay late-payment fees.
You may have to pay extra fees, but that’s hardly universal. And it didn’t begin to happen in earnest until the past few decades.
If you pay late, then you wind up paying more interest, because your principle decreases more slowly.
I can’t say much about your principles, but I can say that there are times when it is better to have your principal decrease more slowly. I’ve been in that situation. But it was more important to maintain my credit rating than to keep the higher principal.
There is plenty of incentive to pay on time -
Michael,
as soon as you subsidize these mortgages, in order to reduce the premium charged for bad credit history (and, thus, higher default risk), you’re effectively punishing those who have good credit.
Indeed, it’s a conundrum. It’s the same problem that conservatives see with paying unemployment compensation, or welfare payments, or Pell grants, or food stamps, or Medicare. Why should people who are not contributing to society receive payments from me? Why reward them for their laziness? Why punish me for being responsible (by not giving me the payments)? Why punish wealthy people for being wealthy (by charging them higher tax rates)? (There are very good answers to these questions. My point is that it’s substantially the same argument.)
It is indeed perverse that the very things that would improve society (especially in emergency situations) sometimes violate the moral hazard principles. The fact is, if we resolved the mortgage crisis — even if responsible people like you and me are (in your words) “punished” for not needing help — then our economic situation (personal, national, even worldwide) would be on far more solid footing.
It’s hard to see any way out of this, without “punishing” people who don’t need help. (That is, any method of helping anyone who is in trouble isn’t going to give help to the people who don’t need it. It’s a weird definition of “punishment,” but I’ll go with it if you want.) The alternative is to let the housing market collapse further, perhaps catastrophically, as more foreclosures happen, and more people are kicked out onto the street. Some method of preventing these bad mortgages from becoming total losses, some method of not completely destroying the major asset most Americans will ever have, would seem to be a good idea. I can’t think of any way to do it that doesn’t “unfairly benefit” the people who need the most help.
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Michael,
… that additional risk is already baked into the rate. Your scientific background should be able to relate to the analogy here of converging on a rate as the number of iterations of “rate increase begets increased risk begets another (smaller) rate increase” approaches infinity. That ultimate rate is the one charged. It’s a convergence calculation, and not an especially complex one at that.
True. But we’re not (currently) talking about trying to find the most effective rate at some random point in history. We’re talking about trying to help avoid another worldwide financial collapse by attempting to stabilize the mortgage market in a time of extreme economic distress. Whatever is the proper rate in normal times, and whatever is the proper mechanism for finding it, desperate times call for desperate measures. No economic theory of what is proper in normal times is going to apply to today’s real situation.
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Anyway, having run a business, having advised businesses (and helped them be very successful), and having worked in banking for a number of years, I’m aware both that most American businesses are seriously screwing themselves, and the solutions I see are out of the mainstream.
I don’t honestly expect the “movers and shakers” to consider anything other than the policies that have already failed. It’s more a matter of Gordon Gekko’s “greed is good” ideology than any sort of practicality or any social conscience. The majority of businesses (especially investments and banking, and more so as the business grows bigger) are concerned with this quarter’s profit, not with the well-being of their customers, an attitude that is ultimately self-defeating. (Obviously. Well, one would think it would be obvious.)
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DC,
It’s the same problem that conservatives see with paying unemployment compensation, or welfare payments, or Pell grants, or food stamps, or Medicare. Why should people who are not contributing to society receive payments from me?
It is related, though not precisely the same. But it’s an important question to consider. At its core is an critical consideration: how do you protect people from risks that are not reasonable to expect them to prepare for, while simultaneously avoiding the creation of moral hazards?
Here’s a fairly obvious example. People have been building on barrier islands with increasing frequency. Those locations have wonderful beaches, and fantastic views. But they’re also especially prone to storm surges. When hurricanes come by and destroy their residences, should they receive compensation from FEMA? Should they have subsidized flood insurance, as approximately 20% of those in floodplains do in the US? These people are taking advantage of the moral hazard of a reduced downside, with the increased upside.
And the same question arises for residents in California. Should they get FEMA compensation after earthquakes destroy their homes? What about those who have subsidized earthquake insurance policies?
By virtue of offering subsidized insurance and the expectation of compensation after the relatively predictable disasters strike, we encourage people to live in these places. The downside risk of living in these places is reduced.
It is indeed perverse that the very things that would improve society (especially in emergency situations) sometimes violate the moral hazard principles.
They might improve society in the short term. But they also run the risk of doing so at the cost of longer-term harm. In this regard, it’s similar to the deficits we’ve been running. Perhaps it’s worth the long-term cost to have the short-term benefit, and perhaps it’s not. That’s a very situational sort of thing. It’s all about the balance.
The fact is, if we resolved the mortgage crisis — even if responsible people like you and me are (in your words) “punished” for not needing help — then our economic situation (personal, national, even worldwide) would be on far more solid footing.
The choice of the word “punish” is not accidental. If, by being responsible, I end up paying more for the loan than those who were irresponsible…if I end up having a less desireable house than those who were irresponsible…if I have to pay the full amount for my house, while the irresponsible people get their loans partially or completely forgiven…then I most certainly have been punished. I end up worse off doing the right thing than I would have been doing the wrong thing.
But we’re not (currently) talking about trying to find the most effective rate at some random point in history.
Oh, but we were. You talked about it as if the interest rate were the problem, when, in fact, the principal is the problem. When people buy a house, unable to make the payments even if they were a simple 30-year fixed, then we’re talking about something far more insidious than mere interest. When people have purchased homes that they may have been able to afford before they lost their jobs, but are unable to get the cash together to make up for the difference between the existing principal on the mortgage and the current market value of the house, then the interest rate is a mere footnote. You’re looking in the wrong place if you’re focusing on interest rates as the core problem here.
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I’m not focusing on interest rates as the full problem. But I do acknowledge them as part of the problem.
I also acknowledge that the invention of arrangements other than fixed-term fixed-rate mortgages is part of the problem. These are incentives to get into bad deals that buyers cannot afford, with the hopes that they can later afford them, and under the lie that real estate values and wages will always increase. History has shown this is not true, despite the powerful propaganda to the contrary.
This is dishonesty I have always deplored, part of the con that bankers have run since time immemorial. The neg-am ARM is part of the reason for the economic collapse of 2008. Usury used to be illegal; when I was a kid, charging interest rates above 18% (even for an unsecured loan) was cause to be jailed. No one would imagine that a buyer would purchase a house under terms that would cause the buyer to lose equity as years went on, or that would allow the lender to raise rates ever. This should not have been allowed.
Buyers should not have accepted these arrangements; banks should not have been allowed to offer them. If ever we needed proof of the necessity of regulation, this is it.
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On the tension between moral hazard and helping those who suffer (because they took the risk) — you and I are actually on the same page. I think you are stressing the problem. I am insisting there are wildly imperfect solutions. You are absolutely correct in your analysis, and I agree completely. My point is that if we are to hold the risk-takers entirely responsible for the result, we all will suffer even more than if we accept (what you term) “punishment” for “their” wrongdoing. It’s a question of cutting off one’s own head to spite someone else’s face.
If you have a better solution than to reward irresponsibility by “punishing” the people who have acted responsibly, I’m open to hearing it. If we don’t do that, then the morally upright people will be punished even worse, when we’re sent back to the stone age by the collapse of our entire civilization.
Did someone ever tell you that life is fair?
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About Michael Weiss (322 posts)
Michael is a jack of many trades, and master of a few. His varied background includes government and private businesses, both large and small. His experience in the financial services and computer industries has led him to computer security.






I know your context concerning personal responsibility here is in the political/economic arena, but the events at Penn State of the past day also highlight the question of personal responsibility.
What PERSONAL responsibility did McQueary have when he walked in and witnessed a child rape in progress? Should he have immediately intervened?
What PERSONAL responsibility did Paterno have when he was later told by McQueary of the event? Was simply passing it up the chain of command, instead of immediately calling Sandusky in and firing him and letting HR settle later?
What if the boy had been either of their own children/grandchild? Would the PERSONAL responsibility level be different?