Is Freedom the Enemy of Equality?
I’ve never listened to Jason Lewis. I’ve never been tempted to. I’m still not.
Don’t confuse him with the actor from Sex and the City with the same name. This Jason Lewis is a local radio talk show host and a syndicated columnist, and isn’t nearly as handsome.
Yesterday he had an opinion column in the Minneapolis Star-Tribune (since he’s syndicated, I assume his column also appeared elsewhere). This particular piece gave me a lesson in how to make an almost rational-sounding argument through lying about the other guy’s intentions. You can find the particular column I’m discussing here. Go read it and then come back. I’ll wait.
Let me preface my comments by saying that the dishonesty here is not limited to conservative talk show hosts and opinion writers. I’m sure people of all political stripes (and of all professions) often do it. It’s just easier to see when it so blatantly misrepresents one’s own viewpoint.
Let me also sidestep the question of whether a lie is still a lie if a thing is said with the honest conviction that it’s true. In this particular case, the issues involved have been so well discussed that I find it difficult to believe someone with the gifts of a Jason Lewis can be as ill-informed as he would have to be in order to believe the nonsense he wrote, particularly since his profession is based on knowing things about these topics. If he wrote what he honestly believed to be true, then he is a total incompetent.
But this isn’t about blasting Mr. Lewis. It’s about the technique, and the damage this technique causes. As I said, he’s not the only perpetrator, and conservativism is not the only source.
The false portrayal of viewpoints is depicted even with the title and summary of the column: “Do you want equality or freedom? Conservatives prefer the latter. So did the nation’s founding fathers.” There are three clear lies in these short sentences, all of them lies by implication.
First is the lie that there is a contradiction between “equality” and “freedom,” as if we can have one or the other, but not both — and as if these two things are somehow inversely tied to each other. But of course, it depends on what these words mean. More on that soon.
Second is the lie that conservatives prefer “freedom” (even while restricting voting rights, restricting marriage rights, restricting abortion rights), which necessarily carries the unstated implication (made explicit in the article) that liberals do not. Though again, it depends on what that word means.
Third, the lie that our founders did not value “equality” all that much. The second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence begins with the words, “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal…” “Equality” is mentioned in the Declaration long before “freedom” is; in fact, the word “freedom” appears in that document exactly zero times, although the “free system of English laws” does appear once about two-thirds of the way through.
That last comment of mine was entirely unfair. It is possible to mention a concept without using a specific term for that concept. Examine the entire first sentence of the Declaration’s second paragraph:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Anyone who can see any contradiction here between “equality” and “freedom” — in fact, anyone who can claim that the two are not inextricably linked — must mean something very different by these words than did America’s Founding Fathers.
Reading the whole article by Mr. Lewis eventually gives a sort of general impression of the odd definition Lewis has for the words “equality” and “freedom.” He means them both in a purely economic sense, not in any political sense that the founders would have meant when using these words in a political document. Lewis seems to mean “equality” in the sense of “everyone has roughly the same after-tax income,” and “freedom” as “having the lowest taxes possible for me, and for those who are wealthier than me — while insuring that people who earn less are taxed more.” But by not setting these definitions into clear terms, he avoids the inconvenient problem of being laughed out of a job.
And now you’re probably ready to accuse me of committing the same error Lewis committed, that I am unfairly criticizing him by mischaracterizing his viewpoint. I urge readers who feel that way to correct me by using quotes from the linked article. He uses all the usual and empty current memes, such as condemning the 51 percent (up from the more-oft-reported 47 percent) of Americans who don’t pay Federal income taxes, and about how awful it is that people in the top tax brackets have a higher marginal tax rate than do people with less wealth. These are the sorts of things he relates to the words “equality” and “freedom;” not free speech, not equal protection under the law, not the right to vote, not the right to worship as you please. Only taxation.
The push to redefine these terms in these ways is vile and destructive. Americans need to be aware that it’s happening. To Lewis, less economic equality equals more absolute freedom, although tax rates should be made more equal — and this would somehow make us all more “free.”
So he goes about contrasting “equality” and “freedom,” and further insists that liberals want everyone to be restricted to the same level of income. Of course this is not what liberals want, and he can’t point to a single source that says they do. This is the crux of his argument — a misstatement of the beliefs of others; the implication that liberals want to achieve “equality of outcome” (his words; a common but completely false conservative meme); and that “the founders” would support his definition of “equality” meaning “flat tax rates,” and “freedom” meaning “increasing concentration of wealth into ever-fewer hands.”
I pick on Lewis here, not because he is particularly pernicious or more dishonest than the average conservative commentator (George Will, Newt Gingrich, Charles Krauthammer, for example). Nor do I single him out because he is conservative. I do it because he is local, which gives me a sense of responsibility to make sure it’s known that not all Minnesotans are wack jobs (at least, some of us are wacky in completely different ways). And I do it because he is more blatant and less sophisticated in his dishonesty than many others, and thus presents it in a more-obvious fashion.
Again, conservatives are not the only ones guilty of this sort of mischaracterization. I invite readers to submit examples of other syndicated columnists, from a variety of viewpoints, who also rely on Orwellian misdirection and mischaracterization to make their points — bearing in mind that there is a difference between satire and mischaracterization.
It is vital to recognize when those who wish to shape our opinions resort to dishonesty and innuendo. The whole concept of logarchism requires clear thinking. The survival of America — of equality and freedom — depends on it.

This entry was posted by dcpetterson on November 14, 2011 at 3:00 am, and is filed under Uncategorized. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0.You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.
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Nearly every sentence of the Lewis article veritably sparkles with dishonesty and contempt for fellow citizens. One could quote almost any phrase there as an exemplar of misanthropy and deceit, or as Orwellian “War is Peace!”-type propaganda. But I think this is my favorite passage:
Occupy Wall Street talks of unity for the masses, as though the nation were a family or commune with the concomitant legal and ethical obligations.
No –we are the descendants of forefathers who fought and bled to establish a system of government specifically designed to protect the individual against unwanted force or fraud. Not to commit it.
Not only is he here denying that Americans have any civic or patriotic duty toward other Americans, he is claiming that such a feeling of fellowship and social contract is “unwanted force or fraud,” and that the founders wanted to create a government that would prevent citizens from supporting each other. He is advocating contempt for the concept of “nation,” and claiming this contempt to be the true patriotism.
What an odious philosophy. What ever happened to, “If we don’t all hang together, we shall surely all hang separately”?
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#4 written by DrFunguy 1 year ago
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I find two key points at which Mr. Lewis’ argument goes off the rails:
The conservative approach will naturally result in unequal incomes, since no two human beings possess equal attributes, while the other demands an equalization of incomes based on the collectivist premise that no two human beings should possess unequal attributes.
The assumption here is that income = attributes (presumably, desirable attributes, such as intelligence and industry). That assumption is clearly not true, or else we wouldn’t need the expression, “If you’re so smart, how come you ain’t rich?”. It’s also no one’s premise that two human beings possess equal attributes. Straw man alert.
Most responsible Americans — especially the top 1 percent — are true achievers. And true achievers have little guilt about what they’ve accomplished. They don’t like thieves.
The top 1 percent have some ineffable combination of achievement, intelligence, drive and — let’s say it out loud — luck. Lucky to be born with wealth. Lucky (like Jon Corzine) to bet on red and have it come up several times in a row until your luck runs out (like Jon Corzine). Lucky, if nothing else, to be born in the United States and not Somalia. None of this has to do with their “attributes” or “achievement”. It’s luck, Mr. Lewis. Again with the straw man to close the paragraph, he equates the Occupy movement with thieves. Some of them are, some of them aren’t, in the same rough proportion as some of the top 1 percent are thieves.
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Oh, and I checked. He quotes Mankiw out of context. Mankiw is pointing out that the income comes from “labor” (income other than investments or capital) but not necessarily working in a steel mill, either.
Here’s the sentence that Lewis cites, followed by the very next sentence in Mankiw’s blog, which changes the meaning of it from a statement of fact (as cited by Lewis) to a question:
Increasingly, the top income group is not the idle rich but the working rich. But what kind of work are they doing to earn all this extra income?
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A house divided against itself cannot stand! ~ Abraham Lincoln … who “borrowed” it from Matthew 12:25 ~ Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.” er Mark 3:24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. er Luke 11:17 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them: “Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall.
For those of you who believe in god and Abraham Lincoln er Republican values.
btw, Matthew, Mark and Luke, so where’s John ?!?
So it shall be written, so it shall be done!
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#8 written by curious jane 1 year ago
This article is a great thought provoking one. I hope there are a lot of comments.
Shiloh, There are so many quotes, from the “New Testament” that it is baffling that the people spewing this ideological blasmphemy do it in the name of “Christian” beliefs.
Everyone should be able to benefit from the “fruits of their labor”. Of course, people are not equal in attributes but hard working stiff has not been benefiting from hard work.
IMO that is why the “Founding Fathers” wanted ideological view out of government.
The true messsage IMO is live by example to spread the belief. There is also a lot about the rich man and how he can get to heaven. I don’t know what book of ideology these people are reading.
This certainly reflects a “Me” generation. I read a book, years ago, called “A Nation of Sheep”. The big money with so much influence is a true propaganda machine for it’s own benefit and not the greater good.
I hope greater minds than mine can figure out a way to counter this movement. A house divided is in big trouble. I haven’t seen this much division in my lifetime, which is quite a long time. I have always been more of an observer but am active now. This is scary stuff.
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Part of the problem here is that there are two separate classes of input that go into the output of increased wealth.
The first is the one that Republicans focus on: good ideas, initiative, drive, and ability. These are great things to reward, because encouraging them benefits all of us.
The second is the one that Democrats focus on: using the fruits of the first to prevent others from gaining similar success through their own good idea, initiative, drive, and ability.
It’s rather silly to pretend that either one of these doesn’t exist. If we want the best economy, we should focus on maximizing the former, while minimizing the latter. Focusing on either one to the exclusion of the other prevents us from having the discussion necessary to achieve this goal.
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You’re correct, Michael. I think, however, that many Democrats are fully aware of the ingenuity and dedication and other good traits that can help someone be successful. They “concentrate” on the negative aspects because they are in problem-solving mode, and want to improve the nation. Examining (rather than ignoring) a problem can assist in finding a solution.
I think by concentrating on the destructive aspects, progressives are (for the most part) trying to address problems, rather than denying that positive aspects exist. I understand that the nearly-exclusive emphasis on the downside can give the impression that progressives don’t recognize the upside aspects at all. Progressives have often not been as good at assembling rhetoric as conservatives habitually are.
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An unsurprising bit of news — SCOTUS has announced that next spring it will hear arguments on the Constitutionality of the Affordable Care Act. The decision is expected to be rendered probably in June. This will definitely make the decision, whichever way it goes, into a major issue in next year’s campaign.
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#13 written by Max aka Birdpilot 1 year ago
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#17 written by Max aka Birdpilot 1 year ago
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#18 written by Jean 1 year ago
I’m in the Mpls/St. Paul area and often listen to Jason Lewis on my drive home from work. Lewis has always selectively edited his material and skewed it towards his staunch libertarian beliefs, and his audience is not composed of the brightest bulbs. He has a national audience and a large percentage appear to be from the South.
Lewis is however, highly entertaining in the skewering he does of any right-wing evangelical and/or neocon callers to his show.
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Jean, thank you for the report. It’s interesting that Lewis doesn’t tolerate neocons or evangelicals. That may be part of how he can survive here in Minnesota.
Max, no I haven’t submitted this article to the newspaper. I’m pretty sure they won’t republish something that isn’t syndicated and has already been published elsewhere, though I could be wrong. Anyway, it’s longer than most of their “readers write” pieces.
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#20 written by Jean 1 year ago
Jason now is nationally syndicated. Very few of his callers are from the midwest nowdays, and those that are from the midwest are generally calling from Michele Bachmann’s district.
Jason is an “Ayn Rand” libertarian. See his previous editorial “Who Was Ayn Rand” at http://www.startribune.com/opinion/119947169.html
His libertarian views about the failure of the drug war are at “Drug war is a failure so let’s experiment” at http://www.startribune.com/opinion/otherviews/126040478.html
Jason reminds me of Bart. Jason claims to be libertarian but supports the Tea Party because he believes it is composed of predominantly fiscal conservatives. However Jason seems to have come to see that the Republican party has indeed been taken over by the right-wing evangelicals but he doesn’t overtly state that. Instead he just rails against the evangelicals when they call in. And like a lot of libertarians, he has no time for any wars, anywhere.
DC, if you get a chance, its well worth listening to Jason Lewis’ evening radio show. I think you’d occasionally enjoy it. Jason is very intelligent in a focused closed-minded libertarian sort of way, but his callers are predominantly Tea Partiers, with some right-wing evangelicals and neocons thrown into the mix. And that makes for entertaining radio.
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#21 written by Jean 1 year ago
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#22 written by Jean 1 year ago
Disclosure: For those here who don’t know me I’m definitely NOT a Republican, Tea Partier or Libertarian. I am independent, definitely left leaning. I listen to right-wing radio programs like Jason Lewis occasionally because I have 10 radical right-wing teavangelical siblings, so it’s a good idea to know in advance where they’re coming from.
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#24 written by Armchair Warlord 1 year ago
I was thinking if I had any source of screamingly bad editorials that I could contribute to this kind of thing, and I was coming up blank.
Then I realized that I get a lot of my news from Al Jazeera English (which I would compare to the BBC in some bizarre world where the Soviets took over England and brainwashed everyone), and their editorial board is complicit in publishing crap-tacular sophistry of this caliber on a daily basis.
Currently on their opinion section on their front page I count six out of eight articles that are likely complete garbage, three of which are apparently about the fact that police in America are kind of heavily armed (never mind that when police elsewhere get caught with their pants down this is never mentioned positively).
Long story short — gold mine.
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#25 written by WA7th 1 year ago
The Echo Chamber Short Story of the Day Committee of One recommends a quick free reading of Kurt Vonnegut Jr’s “Harrison Bergeron” at this time.
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#26 written by GROG 1 year ago
Anyone interested in a right wing reply, I would have this to offer.
The most important question here is how you define “equality”? Everything relies on that definition. Does it mean we should all be treated equally? Or that we should all have equal incomes? Or equal wealth? Or equal possessions?
Does it mean we should all have equal oppurtunity? Or equal rights? Or equal freedoms? Or all of the above? Or some of the above?
I’m not sure we can have an honest discussion about this without first defining “equality”.
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#27 written by shortchain 1 year ago
GROG,
Equality is rather easy to define. Not that anybody here (or anywhere I read) is proposing to make everybody equal in possessions, wealth, or income. I wonder why you think we should “define” it?
I wonder who is proposing that we should not have equal rights or freedoms.
For conservatives like Lewis, money is the measure of a man, so he was clearly speaking of inequality in wealth and income. And we can, relatively easily, measure inequality in wealth — as you know, there’s this thing called the Gini coefficient.
Freedom is the hard concept to define and measure. Why not try for that instead?
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#28 written by GROG 1 year ago
This is what I mean. In DC’s article, he writes
Reading the whole article by Mr. Lewis eventually gives a sort of general impression of the odd definition Lewis has for the words “equality” and “freedom.”
DC goes on to explain what Mr. Lewis seems to mean by equality and writes
But by not setting these definitions into clear terms, he avoids the inconvenient problem of being laughed out of a job.
Unless I’m missing something, I don’t see where DC sets his definition of “equality” into clear terms. He goes on to say
So he goes about contrasting “equality” and “freedom,” and further insists that liberals want everyone to be restricted to the same level of income. Of course this is not what liberals want, and he can’t point to a single source that says they do.
Okay, then what do liberals want when it comes to “equality” and “freedom”?
The push to redefine these terms in these ways is vile and destructive.
How were the terms defined in the first place? That seems like an important component.
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#29 written by Mainer 1 year ago
Grog I don’t think you will find any one on here that would even try to equate what one owns or makes for money as a measure of equality. I don’t have great material wealth but I would argue that I am the equal of people I know that have much more than I or that in many cases have less. Maine is a funny place in some regards and always has been. Maybe it is our tradition of town hall meetings, Grange suppers and very rural feelings but it is hard to think of some one being better than you or perhaps more equal or valued when you just spent the evening eating together or discusing how to fix one of our roads gone bad.
What we do have is the same right to express ourselves and the expectation to be treated with a degree of respect not based on how much we own but what we perhaps know or can do. Just because some one collects the trash each week shouldn’t mean they are less of a citizen than the people they pick up from. In my case I was free to follow career paths in public education and the military not because I had expectations of great wealth but because I saw things that I felt needed to be done and had the freedom to do them and have an enjoyable life while being respected by my peers and neighbors for having done so.
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Grog, when we’re talking about political matters (such as what the founders meant by “equality” and “freedom”), I defer to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. These have nothing to do with income levels. Increasing either equality or freedom increases both.
The problem, as you say, is that these words are used in too many contexts. “Free” can mean “free speech” or it can mean “free beer.” “Equal” can be “equal rights” or it can mean “equal bank accounts.” Lewis intentionally confuses these two senses, substituting a pro-corporatist argument about economics into a political discussion, and pretending that this is what the founding fathers had in mind when they revolted against England.
If I am going to mention “equality” and “freedom” and “the founding fathers” in the same sentence, then I’m not talking about “free beer” (unless I’m specifically referring to Ben Franklin).
In a political sense, “equality” has to do with equal rights, equal opportunities, equal protection under the law. No liberal commentator (other than maybe some far-out-of-the-mainstream communists) ever suggested we should have “equal outcomes” (i.e., we’ve all got the same after-tax income), and Lewis is being unethically dishonest to pretend otherwise. “Freedom” has to do with free speech, freedom of the press, freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures, that sort of thing. “Freedom from taxation” is not one of our freedoms. It isn’t even a “freedom,” any more than is “freedom from right-wing radio talk show hosts.”
Neither would any sane commentator pretend that “free beer” is the extent of American freedoms, as Lewis does. He is merely pointing out the obvious (but irrelevant) fact that if I make more money than you, then our incomes are not the same. He is then pretending that liberals want to prevent this, and further pretending that this is the extent of the rights Americans seek.
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Grog
Unless I’m missing something, I don’t see where DC sets his definition of “equality” into clear terms.
You’re right about that. But then, I was discussing Lewis, not trying to accuse someone else of trying to infringe on my “freedom.”
We’ve been inundated for three years now with this incredibly dishonest meme that liberals (and, especially, President Obama) are out to destroy our “liberty” and our “freedom.” But what these right-wing commentators mean by those words is stuff like “my freedom to cheat you (or to be cheated by huge corporations) without federal oversight,” or “my freedom to avoid paying for federal programs I don’t like.” These are not “freedoms” in any legitimate political sense.
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GROG,
Okay, then what do liberals want when it comes to “equality” and “freedom”?
To elaborate on DC’s response, I refer to my comment from yesterday as a starting point:
using the fruits of the first to prevent others from gaining similar success through their own good idea, initiative, drive, and ability
When it comes to equality, liberals want to stop people from using the fruits of their good ideas, initiative, drive, and ability to prevent others from gaining similar success through their own good ideas, initiative, drive, and ability. That is, “equality” in this context means that any two people with the same idea, initiative, drive, and ability should achieve the same outcome.
If someone becomes a corporate CEO because he graduated from Yale, and got into Yale, despite mediocre grades and SAT scores, because his dad went to Yale, then his success is more related to heritage than to ideas, initiative, drive, or ability. This has numerous negative effects on society. First, it deprives society from many of the best and brightest being in the most influential positions. Second, it teaches people that who you know and who your relatives are is more important than the ideas, initiative, drive, and ability. And this creates disincentive to put forth one’s best effort, whether you’re the child of the Yale graduate or the child of the marginally employed high school dropout in the projects.
In other words, it hurts society in much the same way as society would be hurt if we couldn’t count on government to resolve disputes and enforce the resolution. People aren’t willing to take risks if they don’t expect to be rewarded for them.
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#33 written by Max aka Birdpilot 1 year ago
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#34 written by Max aka Birdpilot 1 year ago
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#35 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
In a political sense, “equality” has to do with equal rights, equal opportunities, equal protection under the law. No liberal commentator (other than maybe some far-out-of-the-mainstream communists) ever suggested we should have “equal outcomes” (i.e., we’ve all got the same after-tax income), and Lewis is being unethically dishonest to pretend otherwise.
Lewis’ article starts out about the Occupy movement and their protests against inequality. The 1% vs the 99%. Are you saying the Occupy movement is about “equal rights, equal opportunities, equal protection under the law”, and little to do with income or wealth inequality?
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GROG,
I hope neither you nor DC mind me interjecting here, but I think this is important. And I’ll butt out if either of you ask.Are you saying the Occupy movement is about “equal rights, equal opportunities, equal protection under the law”, and little to do with income or wealth inequality?
I’d posit that it has more to do with equal opportunities than with anything else, though I don’t know how well those involved would be able to articulate that. You might find a few who are pure communist among them; certainly, if I were a pure communist, that’d be a place I’d feel comfortable. But my sense is that such people would be a minority of those attending the rallies, and those attending the rallies are (obviously) a tiny minority of the “99%” they claim to represent.
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#37 written by Armchair Warlord 1 year ago
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MW — I don’t mind interjections. I figure a discussion in public is fair game.
Grog -
Lewis’ article starts out about the Occupy movement and their protests against inequality. The 1% vs the 99%. Are you saying the Occupy movement is about “equal rights, equal opportunities, equal protection under the law”, and little to do with income or wealth inequality?
Yes. That’s exactly what I’m saying — though you set up a false choice. The extent of the inequality of income and wealth as it exists in America today — and the fact that this inequality is growing by leaps and bounds — is a result of the inequality of rights, opportunity, and protection under the law. It is the inequality of these things that the protestors want corrected. For the most part, they do NOT want to commit equal wealth for each person.
So the protest is, at root, about the inequality of rights and opportunity and protections.
You are buying into the rightist propaganda about this. Admittedly, it is partly the fault of progressives for not being more clear on their purposes. But here it is, plainly spelled out — We want to correct (or at least, reduce) the inequity of opportunity that is wielded by wealth. The increasing accumulation of wealth into ever-fewer hands is a symptom of a deeper problem, and is not itself the problem.
The rapidly-increasing inequality of wealth enters into the discussion only so far as it is a signpost pointing to the accumulation of power by the corporate élites. And note the emphasis I’m making — “rapidly-increasing inequality of wealth.” Everyone (except, as Michael points out, perhaps a few actual communists) acknowledges there will always be inequality of wealth, and no one pretends otherwise or is trying to do away with that inequality. Hard work and imagination should be rewarded.
I hope this makes things more clear!
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There may be a chicken-egg problem here. Did the accumulation of wealth into ever-fewer hands provide opportunity to cause unequal opportunities? Or did the existence of unequal opportunity (through hereditary oligarchies, for example) enable the wealthy élites to accumulate ever-more wealth and power? I suspect the two play on each other and reinforce each other. In any case, the real concern is to insure more equal opportunity, and to stamp out the false meme that we are independent islands who have no responsibility to the nation.
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Max,
You’re right. Conservative commentators and strategists are engaged in an attempt to (mis-)define their political opposition.
They’ve learned a tactic they’ve been using for a couple of years now. They take items from conservative / corporate wish-list, and label them as “freedoms” (even though that’s not what they are). A true democracy is, of course, necessarily in opposition to corporate oligarchy (note: not necessarily in opposition to capitalism, which is something else again). When a reasonable (small-d) democratic administration such as President Obama’s opposes the oligarchic wet-dreams of rightist élites, those corporatist puppets claim their “freedoms” are being violated.
Example: telling insurance companies that they may not drop insured people when they get ill or injured, simply to increase corporate profits, becomes an assault on American “freedom.” What nonsense. The ability to scam customers has never been elevated to a lofty protected “freedom.”
But in this way, corporatist interests have striven to define President Obama — and other democratic and populist movements, such as the Occupy people — as enemies of liberty. It’s quite Orwellian, because those corporatist interests are themselves the ones infringing on “freedom,” as Americans have defined that word for two centuries. Examples: these are the same commentators and strategists who are currently pressing for the destruction of unions and the suppression of voting rights.
It’s all entirely insidious.
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#41 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
Since I’m “buying into the rightist propaganda about this” can you explain how the 1% are causing the the “inequity of opportunity that is wielded by wealth”? What are those 1% doing? The ones who make $380,000 per year or more. 30% of those 1% are either doctors, lawyers, engineers, or professional athletes and actors. What are they doing to create opportunity inequality?
Or is it really corporations that the Occupy movement is talking about?
But in this way, corporatist interests have striven to define President Obama — and other democratic and populist movements, such as the Occupy people — as enemies of liberty.
Please don’t pretend President Obama isn’t a corporatist.
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GROG,
can you explain how the 1% are causing the the “inequity of opportunity that is wielded by wealth”? What are those 1% doing? The ones who make $380,000 per year or more.
Wrong metric. The 1% in question is not the top 1% in earners; it’s the top 1% in net worth. That’s an important distinction for a bunch of reasons.
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#43 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
In any case, the real concern is to insure more equal opportunity, and to stamp out the false meme that we are independent islands who have no responsibility to the nation.
The false meme here is that conservatives believe we are indepenent islands who have no responsibility to the nation. No conservative believes that. None.
The difference lies in the extent to which government should be the sole provider. Left wing commenters enjoy quoting Jesus to show that he taught giving and taking care of the poor to somehow “prove” he was a liberal. But I don’t recall reading anywhere in the bible that Jesus thought government should be the collector and purveyor of charity.
My family (going back 3 generations that I know of) takes care of one another. We take care of our nieces and nephews, neighbors and friends and people we don’t know who are in need in our small community. Our church gives an enormous amount to the needy in our town. We give money, food, and labor to those who need it. Particularly the elderly, mentally disabled, and children of the poor.
And churches get ridiculed by many on the far left. Families who leave an inheritance to their children to help them get a start in life or to protect them against future hardship, get ridiculed by many on the far left because their children acquired something by “luck”.
Does the riducule come because these kind of charitable acts cause government to lose power? Because is reduces government dependency?
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GROG,
And churches get ridiculed by many on the far left.
Many do. In general, those who are ridiculed are either rabidly antiscience or wish to push the United States toward a theocracy (or both). Those are traits worthy of ridicule.
Families who leave an inheritance to their children to help them get a start in life or to protect them against future hardship, get ridiculed by many on the far left because their children acquired something by “luck”.
The ridicule is directed not at the inheritance, but the audacity of the recipients of said funds, when they claim that their successes are theirs alone, and deserved through their own actions. Much as I’d love to believe otherwise, I recognize that my net worth is a result of a combination of the things I offered, and the opportunities that presented themselves to me. I had control over the former, but much of the latter came from my family (at least in my younger years). Absent those early opportunities, the later ones wouldn’t have happened. Small things in my teens became huge things in later years.
Bill Gates is a very bright guy. But without his dad’s prominence and wealth, he wouldn’t have had access to computers at a time when few children were able to. Without his dad’s experience as a lawyer, he wouldn’t have known to retain ownership of PC-DOS, and would have made thousands of dollars instead of billions.
How many other people are as bright, idea-filled, and driven as Bill Gates, but didn’t have access to those external factors? I suspect the number is relatively large (as in tens of thousands, not millions). And our society and economy is being deprived of their potential contributions.
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Grog,
Does the riducule come because these kind of charitable acts cause government to lose power? Because is reduces government dependency?
Nope. It comes because the rhetoric of the right seems to ridicule the idea of “nation.”
If it is okay to collect taxes to build bombs, why is it not okay to collect taxes to staff hospitals? If helping one’s fellow man is a Good Thing, why is it Bad when we agree, through the democratic process, to do it together as a nation?
Why is it an assault on liberty to to band together, as Americans have agreed to do, to help other Americans? (Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, food stamps, unemployment compensation, and so on.)
Why does it damage freedom to increase taxes on the top few percent of people with highest incomes — when a majority of the public — even a majority of Republicans — even a majority of millionaires — says this is a good thing to do?
The ridicule comes because these rightist positions are ridiculous.
It also comes because rightists apparently believe that anyone wants government power or government dependency.
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#48 written by GROG 1 year ago
Nope. It comes because the rhetoric of the right seems to ridicule the idea of “nation.”
If it is okay to collect taxes to build bombs, why is it not okay to collect taxes to staff hospitals? If helping one’s fellow man is a Good Thing, why is it Bad when we agree, through the democratic process, to do it together as a nation?
Why is it an assault on liberty to to band together, as Americans have agreed to do, to help other Americans? (Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, food stamps, unemployment compensation, and so on.)
DC, you’re guilty of exactly what you accuse Lewis of.
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#49 written by DrFunguy 1 year ago
Thus Grog dodges several questions.
DC accuses Lewis of “a misstatement of the beliefs of others”
Since most conservaties support the military but not (non-military) government funded health insurance and many are accusing liberals of assulting American liberty by funding social welfare programs, please enlighten me as to the misstated beliefs.
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#51 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
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Rinse, lather, repeat by our infatuated, fly-by malcontent
who lurks daily aside …This site really does need an obsessed, ad nauseam one-trick-pony winger foil like Bartles, for entertainment value alone. Plus when fili stopped posting on a regular basis, everyone lost their sweetheart
… ok, almost everyone lol.And gasp, many have decided to get on w/their regular lives rather than frequent and post at a political blog considering minds will never be changed here or elsewhere. btw, not a bad decision, eh.
Did I mention there’s a lot to be said for Bartles’ entertainment contribution.
carry on
>
Continuing the obvious ~ who the f… wants to talk about the current, pathetic, laughable, kowtowing to teabaggers, Republican wannabe nominee field of clowns …
Heck, even the teabaggers wish they would all disappear!
Apologies to clowns.
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#54 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
Mule, do you actually have something to add to the discussion?
No. But any reasonable-thinking person can clearly see you’ve added nothing of value to the discussion either and have maintained your consistent and steady lines of sophistry, straw men, and outright partisan hackery, so I don’t feel too bad about a “content-free” swipe stating the obvious.
@shiloh,
Normally I would have a sense of pity for someone like yourself with an obvious mental illness who is a lonely social misfit that (correctly) feels irrelevant and helpless and unable to interact with the world around them except through erratic and often incoherent posts on political blogs, but beneath all the layers of irrelevance and loneliness is a very cunning and antagonistic person full of contempt for the entire world around you because you are incapable or unwilling to understand it — hence the lashing out — and I don’t have an ounce of respect or pity for someone like that. If you need help, seek it out and ask for it. Your current displays of social interaction scream loudly that you are a deeply troubled and disturbed human being, but no one is going to help you as long as you act like a venomous and disgusting snake.
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#56 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
But you didn’t answer my questions. I did answer yours.
It comes because the rhetoric of the right seems to ridicule the idea of “nation.”
If it is okay to collect taxes to build bombs, why is it not okay to collect taxes to staff hospitals? If helping one’s fellow man is a Good Thing, why is it Bad when we agree, through the democratic process, to do it together as a nation?
Why is it an assault on liberty to to band together, as Americans have agreed to do, to help other Americans?
This is what I mean when I say you are doing what you accuse Lewis of doing and what you accused me of doing. You’re setting up a false dichotomy and trying to define your opponent before they define themselves.
Example: Who believes it’s “an assault on liberty to band together, as Americans have agreed to do, to help other Americans”?
Conservatives certainly don’t believe that, but your question implies it’s a fact that they do. You rail against Lewis for engaging in the same tactic.
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#57 written by shortchain 1 year ago
For GROG and for Mule, Here’s review of a book that discusses libertarian economics. One of the things it points out is that, yes, GROG, “conservatives” — at least the very substantial libertarian segment of the conservative bloc — do, indeed, believe in individualism rather than collective action.
You apparently are not capable of speaking for all conservatives.
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Grog,
Who believes it’s “an assault on liberty to band together, as Americans have agreed to do, to help other Americans”?
Those who oppose Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security, not to mention PPACA, on the grounds that they are “social plots” or “government takeovers” of anything.
You may be too young to recall the battles over the first three, but the PPACA certainly was attacked with that rhetoric, was it not?
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#59 written by GROG 1 year ago
Michael,
Bill Gates is a very bright guy. But without his dad’s prominence and wealth, he wouldn’t have had access to computers at a time when few children were able to. Without his dad’s experience as a lawyer, he wouldn’t have known to retain ownership of PC-DOS, and would have made thousands of dollars instead of billions.
How many other people are as bright, idea-filled, and driven as Bill Gates, but didn’t have access to those external factors? I suspect the number is relatively large (as in tens of thousands, not millions). And our society and economy is being deprived of their potential contributions.
Is the implication here that the 1%, like Bill Gates’ father and Bill Gates, are depriving those tens and thousands of their potential contributions? How are they doing that? What’s your solution?
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Grog,
One of the questions I asked was,
If helping one’s fellow man is a Good Thing, why is it Bad when we agree, through the democratic process, to do it together as a nation?
This was in response to your comment #43, in which you (quite rightly) explained, in glowing terms, how your family and your community help others. Yet you object when government does similar things. So I ask again — since helping others is a Good Thing, why is it bad when, through the democratic process, the nation decides to do it?
I know you said,
The difference lies in the extent to which government should be the sole provider.
… but whoever said that government assistance prevents you from also adding your own efforts?
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#61 written by GROG 1 year ago
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#62 written by shortchain 1 year ago
GROG,
I know you asked Michael, and I know you like to pretend that my comments don’t exist (or at least you almost never respond) but I’ll just give you some hints.
Is the implication here that the 1%, like Bill Gates’ father and Bill Gates, are depriving those tens and thousands of their potential contributions? How are they doing that?
Look up “Digital Research” and the history of DrDos. Look up the history of disk compression. Ask someone who worked for any of Microsoft’s competitors. Ask the European Union courts, or the multiple US courts, who have routinely found that Microsoft has engaged, from the beginning, in practices which use Microsoft’s ability to control the market to remove competition.
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#63 written by GROG 1 year ago
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#64 written by shortchain 1 year ago
GROG,
I don’t know who said that, but the bigger the role government plays in providing assistance, the smaller role the individual plays.
So you’re saying that, in the area of “providing assistance”, life is a zero-sum game? I ask because, in past comments, you’ve objected to the economy being considered a zero-sum situation. Why is “providing assistance” zero-sum, when other areas of the economy are not?
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Normally I would have a sense of pity for someone …
yada, yada, yada
As mentioned ~ rinse, lather, repeat ~ Indeed as MR er Shots er Undeniable er Michael er shilohbuster shows no imagination w/his “attempted” insults as he tries hopelessly to be part of any team after sayin’ ad nauseam he was totally done w/Nate’s site, this site, etc.
A desperate cry for help which became tiresome about the first time he threatened someone’s life at the old 538.com (3+) years ago!
take care, shilohbuster
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#66 written by GROG 1 year ago
SC,
Your comments directed at me usually have an explicit or hidden insult, that’s why I tend not to respond. Michael, DC, Monotreme, Mclever, and others don’t engage in that sort of thing.
So you’re saying that, in the area of “providing assistance”, life is a zero-sum game? I ask because, in past comments, you’ve objected to the economy being considered a zero-sum situation. Why is “providing assistance” zero-sum, when other areas of the economy are not?
Because, each individual has only so much disposable, pre-tax income to give as charity or to pay in taxes. Paying more taxes is going to reduce disposable income, leaving less freedom to give to charity, or help their children, or their grandchildren, or their churces, or their neighbors.
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Grog
Just because someone opposes PPACA does not mean they don’t believe in helping one another, or don’t believe in “nation”. Saying so is harmful leftwing propoganda.
Please list some of the Federal social programs that conservatives do not want to eliminate or cut spending for.
the bigger the role government plays in providing assistance, the smaller role the individual plays.
Not necessarily. You are always free to do just as much as you ever did, though I understand your point about disposable income. But in any case, why is that a problem? If the need is being fulfilled, isn’t that the point? And if you pay your taxes, and some of that tax money goes to helping others, then aren’t you, as an individual, doing your part?
You seem to be valuing your individual contribution over the larger effects of the programs that we, as a democracy, have decided to put in place, despite :
1) the ability of a larger program to take advantage of the economies of scale, and
2) the larger program is able to reach and help people that a set of individual efforts would miss (what about those people in need who have no family or community to support them?)
My point is that conservatives in general seem to oppose actions taken on a national level, even when those actions are more efficient and more effective than individual efforts could possibly be. Again: Why are individual charitable actions good, and national charitable actions bad, despite the increased efficiency and effectiveness of national programs?
I’m not trying to set up a contest between individual and national efforts. I’m fine with the existence of both. Why aren’t conservatives?
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Grog,
Paying more taxes is going to reduce disposable income, leaving less freedom to give to charity, or help their children, or their grandchildren, or their churces, or their neighbors.
You probably don’t mean “freedom” in any sort of political sense, on the same level with freedom of speech, the right to assemble, protections against self-incrimination, etc. On its surface, this statement appears to be repeating the same false meme Lewis uses, that national social programs somehow are an infringement on “liberty.” I will assume you’re too smart and honest for that.
You are always free to give to these causes, and nothing whatever in the existence of federal social programs restricts that. So the argument that somehow a federal assistance program limits one’s ability to engage as well in private charity seems untenable.
This same argument could be made about any tax money that goes to national defense or local police departments, or anything else. It even could apply to your visits to Burger King or even to your own food purchases for yourself. Any money paid to anything other than private charity means you have less money to leave to your grandkids. Why shouldn’t we condemn military programs on the grounds that their supporting taxes reduce our disposable income, and thus reduce our freedom to contribute to the local church?
I understand the argument about wanting to choose what you do with your own money. Why not then object just as strongly to taxes spent for national defense or garbage collection or firefighters or border protection? I certainly don’t want any of my tax money going toward sustaining our nuclear arsenal. Does this mean that America’s nuclear program is an indefensible infringement on my liberty? Or does it mean that, in a democracy, sometimes I have to accept the will of the rest of the nation?
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#69 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
Please list some of the Federal social programs that conservatives do not want to eliminate or cut spending for.
Again, just because a conservative wants to eliminate or cut spending for a social program, does not mean they don’t believe in helping one another or don’t care about “nation”.
I’m not trying to set up a contest between individual and national efforts. I’m fine with the existence of both. Why aren’t conservatives?
Conservatives are fine with the existence of both. It’s the extent of each which is the age old debate.
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GROG,
Is the implication here that the 1%, like Bill Gates’ father and Bill Gates, are depriving those tens and thousands of their potential contributions? How are they doing that?
By using earlier successes to preclude others from threatening their position. A simple example in the case of Microsoft was entering into contracts with PC manufacturers to receive a royalty for a copy of Windows and DOS, even if neither were installed on that computer. This reduced the marginal cost (to PC makers) of Windows and DOS to zero, a number against which no other company could effectively compete, while at the same time ensuring a revenue stream to Microsoft for the OSes.
What’s your solution?
Market regulation that prevents business practices that are designed to stifle competition. And serious enforcement of those regulations.
Now, before you mention it, I am aware that none of this would have prevented Bill Gates from gaining access to computer time. But there are two separate issues that we’re now discussing. The one I had originally brought up merely points out that people get an awful lot of advantages from their families, and it’s silly to pretend that they do it all alone. There are reasons, then, to put the brakes on those advantages, by (for example) the use of estate taxes. Better yet, we could use the proceeds from those taxes to make more educational opportunities available to those who do not come from wealthy families. This would reduce (though certainly not eliminate) the imbalance.
The other issue is one of how people, once they reach the point of self-sufficiency, using their positions of power to stifle competition and preclude others from achieving similar success. That’s the one I began with in this response.
I don’t believe it’s credible to eliminate these imbalances altogether. But that doesn’t mean that we should instead ignore the issue and let it grow on its own. Rather, I it benefits us all to reduce those imbalances to the degree we can reasonably achieve. This allows those whose contributions we would otherwise miss to contribute to society at a level commensurate with their abilities.
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#71 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
Why does it damage freedom to increase taxes on the top few percent of people with highest incomes — when a majority of the public — even a majority of Republicans — even a majority of millionaires — says this is a good thing to do?
The ridicule comes because these rightist positions are ridiculous.
It’s ridiculous to oppose raising taxes during the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression?
Btw, according to Gallup, more Americans support repealing PPACA than support retaining it. Does that mean we should repeal it?
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#73 written by shortchain 1 year ago
GROG,
I note that you make an argument
each individual has only so much disposable, pre-tax income to give as charity or to pay in taxes. Paying more taxes is going to reduce disposable income, leaving less freedom to give to charity, or help their children, or their grandchildren, or their churces, or their neighbors.
For which you have not one shred of evidence that it actually is occurring. In fact, since we have only recently discussed the widening gap between the wealth of the top 1 percent and the bottom 80 percent, you must be aware that there is substantial evidence to the contrary. If what you say were operative, we would have seen an increase in the gifts to charities and tax exempt organizations (such as your church — but also Fred Phelps’ church, BTW) at a level proportional to the increase in wealth of the 1 percent.
We have not. Your argument is, therefore, based on an improper understanding of human nature. Perhaps you are basing on your personal beliefs and methods. While they are laudable, they are not shared by even a majority. Hence the need for taxes and government programs.
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Grog,
It’s ridiculous to oppose raising taxes during the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression?
Yes. A blanket opposition to any and all tax increases is ridiculous.
It depends on what the particular effects of particular taxes are likely to be. For example, a tax on money that is doing nothing to help the economy anyway is not likely to be harmful.
Nor is the Republican blanket opposition honest. Republicans have been forcing the reduction of federal spending in a number of areas that has, in turn, forced states and localities to raise property taxes. Had the Republicans not insisted on those spending cuts, then the property taxes wouldn’t have gone up. Since Republicans are willing to allow property tax increases, I think their arguments about opposing all tax increases during a recession are not credible.
The meme rings especially hollow since Republicans oppose raising taxes in boom times as well. They simply want to cut particular taxes on particular people, in good times as well as bad, and are willing to present false and misleading arguments to achieve that.
Since a majority even of the people who would be affected by a tax increase on millionaires think it’s a good idea, yes, I feel it’s ridiculous to oppose “raising taxes during a recession” as a blanket statement with no conditions. Some tax increases would have a bigger positive impact than their possible negative impact.
Btw, according to Gallup, more Americans support repealing PPACA than support retaining it. Does that mean we should repeal it?
The last poll I saw indicated that big majorities liked the actual things that were in the PPACA (not letting insurance companies drop you, not letting them refuse you because of preexisting conditions, etc, etc, etc.). The only provision that a majority perhaps didn’t support was the individual mandate. I’d be pleased to replace that with a universal single-payer funding system. At any rate, the public will have a chance to decide who to send to Washington in November of 2012, based on the policies they support, and if a majority of those they send decide to repeal PPACA, then that’s what is likely to happen. That’s how democracy works.
Again, just because a conservative wants to eliminate or cut spending for a social program, does not mean they don’t believe in helping one another or don’t care about “nation”.
They can prove that by actually supporting some national assistance programs. Otherwise, complaints that they care about nation and aren’t opposed to social programs are unconvincing.
Conservatives are fine with the existence of both [private and public assistance programs]. It’s the extent of each which is the age old debate.
I believe that is how you feel. I await evidence of Republicans in Congress expressing something other than an intent to dismantle these public programs.
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#75 written by GROG 1 year ago
Mihchael,
So we need tougher anti-trust laws. Fair enough. I’m all for competition. Not sure how the whole wealthiest 1% thing plays in there, though. I haven’t seen a sign at an Occupy rally that says “We Demand Tougher Anti-Trust Laws!”.
There are reasons, then, to put the brakes on those advantages, by (for example) the use of estate taxes.
I’m not sure why you’d want to slow down someone like Bill Gates. I’m not going to defend his business practices, but he does employ about 100,000 people. Those 100,000 people buy lots of stuff that help support thousands of other jobs.
If we’re going to tax our way to more equal opportunity, how are you going to insure that most of that money is going to go to the ten thousand or so people who have the attributes of a Bill Gates? That’s an infinitesimaly small percentage to try to target.
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#76 written by shortchain 1 year ago
GROG,
Your argument is basically for feudalism, in that you think it’s good to have an emporer, or, as you call that person, a “job producer” — and we know by studying history that feudalism does not produce a very good standard of living for the vast majority of the population. Now, you may say that the peasants have it good if the lord of the manor does — after all, in that case, they’re not starving, they each have at least one head of cattle, many of them have root cellars, and most of them have shoes — but I’d argue that wealth, or the lack of it, is a relative measure.
Your fundamental mistake is in assuming that Bill Gates produced the market by which he has made his billions. But the market was produced by technology (the technology of the microprocessor) — and Bill Gates was more an example of being in the right place at the right time. Had Bill Gates not put all of his competitors out of business, or at least cost them untold billions in business opportunities, they’d be employing 200,000 people. And the technology wouldn’t have spent most of the 80’s, 90’s, and oughts doing segmentation faults, viruses and worms.
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Grog
Btw, according to Gallup, more Americans support repealing PPACA than support retaining it. Does that mean we should repeal it?
Grog, do also bear in mind, the discussion about whether we should or shouldn’t raise taxes in a recession, and now whether we should or shouldn’t repeal PPACA, was occasioned by my question:
Why does it damage freedom to increase taxes on the top few percent of people with highest incomes — when a majority of the public — even a majority of Republicans — even a majority of millionaires — says this is a good thing to do?
The ridicule comes because these rightist positions are ridiculous.
Rather than answer that question, you said:
It’s ridiculous to oppose raising taxes during the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression?
My original point had nothing to do with whether we should raise taxes — in a recession or otherwise (though I did you the respect of answering the question you asked; I even answered your further deflection into the PPACA).
What I said was “ridiculous” was not the idea of refusing to raise taxes. What I said was “ridiculous” was the idea that raising taxes is an infringement of anyone’s freedom. Apparently you agree that this rightist position is “ridiculous” since you declined to defend it, and instead merely changed the subject. If I’m wrong, you are welcome to address the original question.
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GROG,
I haven’t seen a sign at an Occupy rally that says “We Demand Tougher Anti-Trust Laws!”.
Nope. I don’t think those who have been attending these rallies are especially articulate about how to achieve the goals. The focus seems to be more on the existing inequities, and wanting them to stop. That they are able to articulate the problem (to a degree, anyway) and not so much any suggested solutions doesn’t render the observed complaint moot.
I’m not sure why you’d want to slow down someone like Bill Gates. I’m not going to defend his business practices, but he does employ about 100,000 people. Those 100,000 people buy lots of stuff that help support thousands of other jobs.
Leaving aside that he no longer runs the company (and hasn’t for about a decade)…
Microsoft’s dominance has prevented other companies from entering the space. Those companies would have employed plenty of people. Would the sum-total of the market’s employment have been greater or less than 100k? I have reason to believe it would have been more, but the math behind that is too complex for a quick comment.If we’re going to tax our way to more equal opportunity, how are you going to insure that most of that money is going to go to the ten thousand or so people who have the attributes of a Bill Gates? That’s an infinitesimaly small percentage to try to target.
You don’t. In the crucible of young people, you spread your bets, knowing that the vast majority will not pay off. The individual fiscal loss is more than made up by the return that comes from the few that do pay off.
But here’s the cool thing…this approach helps to encourage more Bill Gateses, while at the same time working to reduce the likelihood that we will have more George W. Bushes, those who are mediocre at best, but get handed “successes” that are really others’.
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#79 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
Why does it damage freedom to increase taxes on the top few percent of people with highest incomes — when a majority of the public — even a majority of Republicans — even a majority of millionaires — says this is a good thing to do?
The ridicule comes because these rightist positions are ridiculous.
Rather than answer that question, you said:
Your question included a bunch of commentary which led me to believe it wasn’t really a question. Whether or not something damages freedom has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that a majority of people favor something. Opinion polls don’t determine freedom. The phrasing of your question indicates that you believe they do.
But to answer your question, yes, raising taxes can damage freedom.
As far as it being “ridiculous” to raise taxes in this economy, even Bill Clinton thinks it’s a bad idea. “I personally don’t believe we ought to be raising taxes or cutting spending until we get this economy off the ground.” Perhaps Clinton is now a “rightist”.
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#80 written by shortchain 1 year ago
GROG,
Clinton also said — in the same sentence — that he thought spending should not be cut. Do you agree with that, as well, or is Clinton only right when he says something you agree with?
It is a false and misleading statement to claim that the economy, as a whole, is suffering. The financial institutions are paying the same bonuses they paid before the crash. Corporate executives are taking the same increases in pay and stock benefits they took before the crash. Wealthy people have found other investment vehicles rather than mortgage-backed securities, and are doing just fine.
It’s very odd that you want to lump everything together when you say “taxes should not be raised”. When you look at the economy, wealthy people, whose assets are disproportionately in assets which have largely recovered from the recession, are doing just fine.
It’s almost as if you want to borrow the angst that the lower 80 percent of the country is feeling, whose income and assets are in things like their salary and home, both of which are under pressure or endangered, for the sake of generating sympathy for the wealthy.
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#81 written by GROG 1 year ago
SC,
Clinton also said — in the same sentence — that he thought spending should not be cut. Do you agree with that, as well, or is Clinton only right when he says something you agree with?
I’m aware of that. The quote from Clinton that I copied above contains “or cutting spending”. And no, I don’t agree with that.
Keynesian economics says we should cut taxes, which is the opposite of raising taxes, during a recession. Do you agree with that, or was Keynes right only when it’s something you agree with?
It’s almost as if you want to borrow the angst that the lower 80 percent of the country is feeling, whose income and assets are in things like their salary and home, both of which are under pressure or endangered, for the sake of generating sympathy for the wealthy.
It has nothing to do with generating sympathy for the wealthy. It has to do with what is best for the economy as a whole.
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GROG,
Keynesian economics says we should cut taxes, which is the opposite of raising taxes, during a recession. Do you agree with that, or was Keynes right only when it’s something you agree with?
There you go again. Newtonian physics is not all about Newton, and Keynesian economics (more precisely, Keynesian countercyclical economics) is not all about Keynes.
It has nothing to do with generating sympathy for the wealthy. It has to do with what is best for the economy as a whole.
So if raising taxes tomorrow on the wealthy were to improve the economy, would you be in favor of it?
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#83 written by shortchain 1 year ago
GROG,
Please cite, with specifics, where Keynes said that taxes on everybody should be cut during a recession.
You imagine, perhaps, that Keynes was unable to distinguish between taxes on one income or wealth quintile and another?
Besides, as we both know, from having discussed this before (although you apparently have forgotten the last discussion), what Keynes suggested was that government counter-cyclical spending could ease the length and severity of recessions caused by the business cycle. That spending could include tax cuts, or unemployment benefit extensions, or infrastructure spending.
To forestall yet another episode, you might want to take a look at this, which lays out the options. Tax cuts (in the sense you seem to mean) come in dead last, and I think we are entitled to infer that tax increases on some segments of the population who can easily afford it, coupled with some of the better options, would produce a positive result without even increasing the deficit!
I assume, for the sake of argument, that you are interested in not increasing the deficit — although, according to Keynesian theory, that would be OK.
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Grog,
Whether or not something damages freedom has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that a majority of people favor something.
If I am afraid something will damage my freedom, I’m unlikely to support it. Since a majority of the very people who would have to pay higher taxes support raising the their own tax rates, it doesn’t seem as if they’re afraid of having their freedom damaged. So I disagree with your opinion on this, and so do the people whose freedom you seem to be worrying about.
But to answer your question, yes, raising taxes can damage freedom.
You still dodged the question I asked. I didn’t ask “does it” damage freedom (because we already know that rightist talking points claim it does). I asked “Why” does this damage freedom? Point me in the direction of where in the Constitution it is indicated that taxation in a democracy damages your freedom. Describe to me the freedom that is damaged.
I will agree that something like the current Republican attempts to create a poll tax damages freedom, because it is an intentional restriction of voting rights. In a case like that, both the intent and the effect is specifically to take away rights.
But that’s not the sort of thing Lewis is talking about. Tell me why, for example, raising the top marginal income tax rate damages freedom.
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#85 written by GROG 1 year ago
Michael,
So if raising taxes tomorrow on the wealthy were to improve the economy, would you be in favor of it?
Yes I would.
SC,
Please cite, with specifics, where Keynes said that taxes on everybody should be cut during a recession
Keynesian theory clearly recommends cutting taxes during a recession. You’re asking me to prove a negative by showing where Keynesian theory deosn’t recommend raising taxes on the rich during a recession. Why don’t you cite, with specifics, where Keynes said that taxes should be raised on the rich during a recession?
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#86 written by shortchain 1 year ago
GROG,
You keep wanting to restrict the argument only to cutting or raising taxes, but the government has — as the citation I gave earlier discussed — many ways of stimulating the economy.
Even if we restrict ourselves only to taxes, are you trying to make the argument that there cannot be a tax increase on one quintile with a tax decrease on another quintile, for example, that results in a net stimulus (and that is revenue neutral or even positive)?
You made a bald assertion, I merely asked you for a citation to demonstrate that your assertion was true. That’s not asking you to “prove a negative”. Here’s what you said: “Keynesian economics says we should cut taxes”. Later you said “Keynesian theory clearly recommends cutting taxes during a recession.” Both of these statements require a citation, as they are, by themselves, misleading. From Wikipedia:
Keynesian economics argues that private sector decisions sometimes lead to inefficient macroeconomic outcomes and, therefore, advocates active policy responses by the public sector, including monetary policy actions by the central bank and fiscal policy actions by the government to stabilize output over the business cycle.
Nowhere in there do I see a requirement that the spending be in the form of tax cuts. Do you?
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#87 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
You still dodged the question I asked. I didn’t ask “does it” damage freedom (because we already know that rightist talking points claim it does). I asked “Why” does this damage freedom?
Sorry about that. Don’t think I’m trying to dodge the question again, but let me answer by saying why I “know” it damages freedom.
All those millionaires who claim they want taxes raised on themselves are perfectly free to pay whatever they want to the treasury, yet they don’t. Regardless of what they tell a pollster on the telephone, when they have the choice, they say “no” to paying more taxes.
Tell me why, for example, raising the top marginal income tax rate damages freedom.
Even Michael agrees that high marginal tax rates are counterproductive. It changes people’s behavior. High tax rates cause people to behave differently than would without high rates.
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#88 written by shortchain 1 year ago
GROG,
I’m going to help you out here, because economists talk in generalities and typically need to be interpreted. From a discussion of post-Keynesian economics, here’s Wikipedia quoting Sylvia Nasar on the importance of Keynes’ work:
.… The only way to revive business confidence and get the private sector spending again was by cutting taxes and letting business and individuals keep more of their income so they could spend it. Or, better yet, having the government spend more money directly, since that would guarantee that 100 percent of it would be spent rather than saved. If the private sector couldn’t or wouldn’t spend, the government would have to do it. For Keynes, the government had to be prepared to act as the spender of last resort…
Notice, please, that, although taxes are one means, a better means is direct spending.
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#89 written by GROG 1 year ago
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Grog
All those millionaires who claim they want taxes raised on themselves are perfectly free to pay whatever they want to the treasury, yet they don’t.
That’s a red herring. Whether they pay extra or not has nothing to do with freedom. Further, what they want is for the top marginal tax rate to increase, so deflection into why they do or don’t take action on their own is irrelevant.
Example: Let’s say I’m convinced that lowering the speed limit on interstate highways to 55 would save thousands of lives each year by reducing the number of fatal crashes. I might lobby Congress to lower the speed limits. You might tell me that I should just drive slower myself. But that won’t address the issue, because 1) I’m not asking for a law that addresses only me, and 2) if I personally drive slower, it won’t save thousands of lives.
This “if some rich people want to pay more, let them” meme is utter nonsense, and you know it.
Regardless of what they tell a pollster on the telephone, when they have the choice, they say “no” to paying more taxes.
They also told this directly to the face of Congressmen and Senators today. mclever posted this link on another thread. They are most definitely saying “yes” to higher taxes on themselves.
You’re still dodging the question. All you did here is question the honesty of people who want a change in policy. You haven’t come close to addressing the issue.
What freedom, specifically, is infringed upon by altering the top marginal tax rate? Freedom of speech, freedom to assemble, freedom of worship,. what?
Why does altering tax rates infringe on freedom? Does it prevent you from voting, does it force you into a position of self-incrimination, does it prevent you from carrying a gun or petitioning for a redress of grievances?
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GROG,
So if raising taxes tomorrow on the wealthy were to improve the economy, would you be in favor of it?
Yes I would.
Well, then, that’s a start. Let me toss a few other questions your way.
All else being equal (that is, isolating these factors):
– Would you expect more government spending to help or harm the economy? Why?
– Would you expect the government taking on more debt to help or harm the economy? Why
– Would you expect the government raising taxes to help or harm the economy? Why?And, would you expect the government doing the opposite on each of those three to have the opposite result? If not, why not?
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GROG,
Even Michael agrees that high marginal tax rates are counterproductive.
That’s not an accurate reflection of my beliefs. The use of the word “counterproductive” implies a particular product. So, high rates can be productive or counterproductive, depending on the particular goal.
It changes people’s behavior.
Taxation changes behavior, period. High or low, it changes behavior. A change in some rates will change some behaviors.
But what if a tax increase changes behavior in a desireable direction?
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Grog,
Enacting any law will change behavior (that’s the purpose of enacting any law — to affect behavior). Repealing any law will change behavior. Any alteration in the current culture will change behavior. Releasing a popular movie will change behavior. Selling a new version of the iPad will change behavior. Building a road, or not repairing a bridge, or refusing to raise taxes, or televising a baseball game, all of these things will change behaviors.
What’s your point? What has any of this got to do with “restricting freedom”?
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#95 written by shortchain 1 year ago
GROG,
I don’t want to pile on here, but I think a very slight correction is in order. When you say, “Not spending financed by tax increases.” — My understanding of the theory is that government spending is necessary in these cases when businesses and individuals are not spending (as now).
How it is, or should be, paid for is another question, separate and distinct from the need for spending. Obviously, one does not want to make individuals less likely to start spending, so an across-the-board tax increase is a bad idea. However, I see nothing in the theory that prevents a targeted tax increase, falling on people who spend, relative to their income, relatively little, while spending on infrastructure or other areas which will stimulate the economy.
You seem to be re-asserting the theory that, in order to stimulate the economy, taxes can never be raised on anybody, which is obviously false: it would be extremely unfair (and counterproductive in the longer run), and I would never support it, but obviously — if the entire estates of the wealthiest 400 people in America were nationalized and spent by the government in infrastructure improvements, it would stimulate the economy.
Just a reductio absurdem argument to demonstrate that a tax increase can produce (at least in a short term) an economic stimulus, not meant to advocate such a move.
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#96 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
Repealing any law will change behavior. Any alteration in the current culture will change behavior. Releasing a popular movie will change behavior. Selling a new version of the iPad will change behavior. Building a road, or not repairing a bridge, or refusing to raise taxes, or televising a baseball game, allof these things will change behaviors.
What’s your point? What has any of this got to do with “restricting freedom”?
Let’s say marginal income tax rates rates are increased to 99.99% on income over $100,000 and there is a “wealth tax” of 99.99% on any wealth over $200,000. Would this not damage someone’s freedom to have the ability to buy yachts, or start businesses, or give excessive amounts to charities, etc?
I understand I’m using an extreme example, but how can you deny that behavior altering taxes can’t affect a person’s freedom from acting in ways that he or she would normally act in the absence of those tax rates?
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Let’s say marginal income tax rates rates are increased to 99.99% on income over $100,000 and there is a “wealth tax” of 99.99% on any wealth over $200,000. Would this not damage someone’s freedom to have the ability to buy yachts, or start businesses, or give excessive amounts to charities, etc?
Yes, but none of the things you list are “freedoms” in any legitimate political sense. The taxes you propose are, of course, stupid in othet ways (you and I are agreed on that). But the arguments against them are economic, and have nothing to do with the concept of “political freedom.”
A law that says I must stop at red lights restricts my “freedom” to ignore red lights. Does this mean that we must repeal all traffic laws, since they are all infringements of my freedom? Any law restricts something. Must we repeal all laws?
You are repeating Lewis’ absurd notion that “I must be allowed to do anything I want, or it is a totalitarian restriction on my freedom!”
I understand I’m using an extreme example, but how can you deny that behavior altering taxes can’t affect a person’s freedom from acting in ways that he or she would normally act in the absence of those tax rates?
Because this is true for every single law on the books. You are denying the desirability of any and all laws. A law against murder restricts my feedom to kill people.
What’s happening here is that you are using the word “freedom” in a sense never intended by the founders — you are using it to merely mean “free beer”, in the sense of “getting whatever I want with no consequences.” You are not using the word in any reasonable sense having to do with “political freedom.” The sense you’re using “freedom” is the 9-year-old’s “I’m going to hold my breath until I turn blue if I don’t get that cupcake!”
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#98 written by GROG 1 year ago
Michael,
Would you expect more government spending to help or harm the economy? Why?
– Would you expect the government taking on more debt to help or harm the economy?I expect all of those things would possbily help the economy in the very short term.
– Would you expect the government raising taxes to help or harm the economy? Why?
Raising taxes would only help the economy in the sense that it would slow it down.
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#99 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
You are repeating Lewis’ absurd notion that “I must be allowed to do anything I want, or it is a totalitarian restriction on my freedom!”
No, I never said I must be allowed to do anything I want. I was merely arguing that taxes can restrict freedom. I wasn’t complaining about it or holding my breath like a child. I was stating a fact.
You say opposing abortion is denying a woman her freedom of choice. What freedom is being infringed upon? Freedom of speech, freedom to assemble, freedom of worship,. what? Does it prevent you from voting, does it force you into a position of self-incrimination, does it prevent you from carrying a gun or petitioning for a redress of grievances?
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About dcpetterson (186 posts)
D. C. Petterson is a novelist and a software consultant in Minnesota who has been writing science fiction since the age of six. He is the author of A Melancholy Humour, Rune Song and Still Life. He lives with his wife, two dogs, two cats, and a lizard, and insists that grandchildren are the reward for having survived teenagers. When not writing stories or software, he plays guitar and piano, engages in political debate, and reads a lot of history and physics texts—for fun. Follow on Twitter @dcpetterson







The great thing about Lewis’ argument is that it’s so general. Consider:
– You can’t have equality before the law and freedom for all. (If you read Glenn Greenwald, you know that this is an argument that’s actually being made in justification of our increasingly two-tiered justice system.)
– You can’t have religious freedom without allowing religious organizations the freedom to persecute, or at least discriminate against, the unbelievers.
You’ve got to admit, it has the advantage of simplicity. If you ignore the fact that we all have to live together, and the knowledge of human nature that has been known for thousands of years (but apparently not by those like Lewis), then such an argument might be persuasive.