Open Mic February 24

The biggest news of the week was perhaps Iran, who refused to allow the UN nuclear inspectors into key sites, further indicating that the nation is developing nuclear weaponry. The price of oil rose on speculation that supplies will be tighter. And Fox News and the Republican Presidential candidates did their best to pin the resultant increase in gasoline prices on President Obama.

Today’s Friday, and you know what that means. The floor is yours. What’s fueling your thoughts as this week draws to a close?

Don’t see an article on a particular topic, but want to talk about it somewhere? This is Open Mic. Talk about whatever you want, but stay respectful.

We create a new Open Mic every week to give a clean slate, but feel free to add to this topic at any time.

This entry was posted by Logarchism.com on February 24, 2012 at 12:01 am, and is filed under Open Mic. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0.You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.

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#101 written by GROG 2 months ago

Oh come on Max. I was asked who I was referring to and I gave two examples.

Do you want me to provide more?
#102 written by curious jane 2 months ago

I wouldn’t say people are all dangerous and evil and out to destroy the country. Both sides have political agendas and rhetoic is common in politics. I would not say that the job situation is good. I do not believe that cutting public jobs is the way to improve the country without everyone to help. I would not say that President Obama has all the answers and has made all of the right decisions. However, I am more one sided now than I ever have been. I feel the hard line of the current Republican movement is not the party of Buckley. A regressive path to a time of History I lived through and saw things get better and the Nation thrive. The Republicans this time have no concern for the disparity in income and the lack of upward mobility possiblities. This is something I don’t hear the right on this website address. What do you think caused that problem? Why are we back to the robber baron era and who is responsible, the middle class and poor.?
#103 written by Max aka Birdpilot 2 months ago

GROG,

I’d give you the Lautenburg case, But the Pelosi is NOT BLAMING the President for anything, but challenging the policy Bush had about the SPR.
#104 written by rgbact 2 months ago

CJ–
I would start by having the 11M people here illegally go back home.That would remove 11M people at the bottom rung, while increasing the wages of the remaining people that take those jobs at higher wages, and decreasing the income of the rich owners who padded their income by hiring illegals.
Btw,your memory of Buckley is probably jaded. He was pretty damn conservative.You need to remember that news channels/blogs present things in the most polarizing way possible. I’m pretty confident that had MSNBC been around in the 60’s, you would think of Buckley as just another racist that wants to stop you from using birth control.
#105 written by Max aka Birdpilot 2 months ago

I would start by having the 11M people here illegally go back home.

A proposal that NO ONE admits to a solution. No logistics to accomplish such a thing. Don’t have any idea why rgbact would even broach the subject.

Btw,your memory of Buckley is probably jaded.

Actually, rgbact, perhaps your reading of history and Buckley is incomplete as opposed to Jane’s memory. Jane and I were both around back then, We remember well Buckley, National Review and Firing Line. We also remember that the conservative Buckley, in 1965, railed against the ultraconservatives that were trying to take over the Republican Party at the time. (Sound familiar?) Articles he wrote, speeches he gave. Essentially: “Rid the Party of this cancer. America does not need them. More importantly, America does not want them. Keep them away!”

Jane’s comment, and the similar one’s I’ve made, bemoans the LACK of people of the stature, knowledge and influence of a Buckley. You, and the Party, would do well to remember his admonitions.
#106 written by Monotreme 2 months ago

rgbact, you should actually read William Buckley on immigration.

You might be surprised to find he strongly disagrees with you.

The challenge is to invoke these with eyes wide open on the broader perspective: the free movement of capital in fact benefits the American consumer, who in turn employs the American worker.

Or this:

Critics of the existing arrangements, which are simply latitudinarian — there are laws respecting immigration, and people do not abide by them, so what? — are telling us that the effect of laws not abided by is a distortion of the labor market. If the farmer isn’t finding applicants for his apple-picking at $3 per hour, let him try offering $5 per hour.

But a producer always seeks to lower costs; that is his primary role in the market equation. So our farmer has simply continued to use illegal workers. Now he is faced with the legalization of the same people he was getting for $3, and contemplates the prospect of having to pay the minimum wage of more than $5.
#107 written by curious jane 2 months ago

rgbact,
IMO the Country has moved to a too liberal movement and too conservative movement. The two party system swings extremes to the center.
There is a lot of disagreement and battling and compromises are made to swing the other direction. The crack about MSNBC and Fox type media wasn’t there. Money did have influence in media but, there was local reporting and there wasn’t as many huge media moguls spewing their trainers tripe. There was also a fair and balanced political rule.
What Buckley said about immigration, is the real problem. GA took a big economic hit because there was no one to pick the crops, some rotted in the fields. They tried to have prisoners do the work. They didn’t have the knowledge of what to pick nor did they have the stamina to do the job. They refused, even making a higher wage. Migrant workers are willing to work harder and do the job better. They have been an asset for agriculture. They do the work that Americans refuse to do or do not have the stamina to do.
You addressed me specifically so why not tell me why you think the disparity and upward mobility is such a problem today as opposed to 30 or so years ago?
Also, why is it right to take an oath above and beyond the oath of office?
If the Republican party is so concerned about the deficit, the middle class is jobless or are underemployed, do they refuse to increase revenue, (much more $s than cutting public jobs), when that top percent is still growing in wealth?
This rightward move is rediculous. We have a crisis and most of the policy has been on social issues and ideology. It is nuts. Buckley is rolling over in his grave and scratching his head. Give me a Rhino any day. PS. I voted for Reagan. I see both sides and don’t always fall in line.
#108 written by GROG 2 months ago

Max,

But the Pelosi is NOT BLAMING the President for anything.

I don’t know anything about Don Sanchez, but look at what he wrote in the article.
After invoking Meals on Wheels and the Boys and Girls Club, (I wonder if Mr. Sanchez is writing about their struggles in 2012 with Obama as President) he writes:

The speaker blames what she labels the Bush-Cheney big oil agenda, using graphics to point out gasoline prices have more than doubled in the Bush administration.

I don’t know where he got that. Maybe he lied. He didn’t quote Pelosi direcectly on that, but I don’t hear Pelosi spouting off about how gas prices have doubled under Obama.

“Mr. President, do not fill the strategic petroleum reserve with oil at record highs. Instead, take out the oil that we brought at a lower price to bring down the price of oil, to reduce the price at the pump,“

Pelosi advocated taking oil out of the SPR to reduce prices at the pump. Today, under President Obama, there is more oil in the SPR then when Bush was President in 2008.

In your opinion, what impact would “taking out the oil” have on gas prices?

Is it possible Pelosi was “grandstanding”?
#109 written by Max aka Birdpilot 2 months ago

Just making a judgement based on the quote you cited. Nothing more. It’s why I have asked in the past for support for assertions.

Again, to me, it’s no biggie. BOTH sides blame the other for something that we have seen pretty much is NOT remotely controllable in the short to medium run. It’s politicking and if we spend our time just playing THAT game, it would be a BIG waste of time.
#110 written by dawolf 2 months ago

@GROG

My knowledge of the SPR is that releasing oil will have a — temporary, and very small - effect on lowering oil prices. However, that does not mean you should be adding to it at times when prices are high, as that’s just stupid timing, and a waste of money.

Of course, there is a question of whether prices now are high, or is $100 a barrel pretty much standard now. In other words,

“Mr. President, do not fill the strategic petroleum reserve with oil at record highs. Instead, take out the oil that we brought at a lower price to bring down the price of oil, to reduce the price at the pump,“ — Pelosi

is something I’d agree with, in general. Although the price reduction is negligible IMO, the profit for the government could be considerable — sell 50m barrels of oil @ a $20 profit, and that’s $1 bn profit for the government. Not bad, it’s not big potatoes but it’s something for nothing so why not? Of course the trick is to buy low and sell high, but isn’t it always.…
#111 written by GROG 2 months ago

dawolf,
Keep in mind that oil is continuously coming in and going out of the reserve, because the oil needs to be kept fresh. It’s not like we can can hold oil in a tank that we bought at $50/barrel and then sell when prices hit $100. It comes in and goes out daily.

.
#112 written by Max aka Birdpilot 2 months ago

because the oil needs to be kept fresh.

WHAT????

You mean crude that was underground for millions of years, that is stored in underground caverns, has a “freshness date”????

C’mon, bro! Ya gotta at LEAST LOOK like yer tryin’!!!!
#113 written by dawolf 2 months ago

@GROG
ermmm.…the oil needs to be “kept fresh”.…what? I have absolutely no idea what you’re on about.
#114 written by Max aka Birdpilot 2 months ago

#111 written by GROG 22 MINUTES AGO

dawolf,
Keep in mind that oil is continuously coming in and going out of the reserve, because the oil needs to be kept fresh. It’s not like we can can hold oil in a tank that we bought at $50/barrel and then sell when prices hit $100. It comes in and goes out daily.

Quoting you, my friend. And for your review:

http://fossil.energy.gov/programs/reserves/spr/spr-drawdown.html
#115 written by Jean 2 months ago

GROG,

…the oil needs to be kept fresh. It’s not like we can can hold oil in a tank that we bought at $50/barrel and then sell when prices hit $100.

Koch doesn’t seem to agree.

“In 2008, Koch called attention to itself for “contango” oil market manipulation. A commodity market is said to be in contango when future prices are expected to rise, that is, when demand is expected to outstrip supply. Big banks and companies like Koch employ a contango strategy by buying up oil and storing it in massive containers both on land and offshore to lock in the oil for sale later at a set price. In December of 2008, Koch leased “four supertankers to hold oil in the U.S. Gulf Coast to take advantage of rising prices in the months ahead.”

Writing about Koch’s contango efforts to artificially drive down supply, Fortune magazine writer Jon Birger noted they could be raising “gasoline prices by anywhere from 20 to 40 cents a gallon” at the time. Speaking with the Business Times, Koch executive David Chang even boasted that falling crude prices in 2008 provided an opportunity remove oil from the market for future delivery:

CHANG: The drop in crude oil prices from more than US$145 per barrel in July 2008 to less than US$35 per barrel in December 2008 has presented opportunities for companies such as ours. In the physical business, purchases of crude oil from producers and storing offshore in tankers allow us to benefit from the contango market where crude prices are higher for future delivery than for prompt delivery.

A recent presentation from Koch Supply & Trading, the Koch unit devoted to selling financial products, confirms that Koch has taken advantage of a lax regulatory environment to aggressively trade on future oil prices. “The return of speculators to Oil, the ‘macro trade’ is alive and well“

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/04/13/153206/koch-industries-price-gouging/
#116 written by Michael Weiss 2 months ago

dawolf,

My knowledge of the SPR is that releasing oil will have a — temporary, and very small — effect on lowering oil prices.

Temporary, yes, though the effect can be larger than one might expect from the size of the release. It has a psychological impact, as well as a market impact.
#117 written by rgbact 2 months ago

Buckley is rolling over in his grave and scratching his head. Give me a Rhino any day. PS. I voted for Reagan. I see both sides and don’t always fall in line.
Interesting. All I can tell you is shut off MSNBC and actually observe some of the new TP freshman. You might see alot more similarities to Reagan/Buckley than the media wants to portray. I’ve been very impressed. The current media likes to demonize, and I’m not saying its just the left. Its the reality of the explosion of media outlets, so I don’t see us going back to the filtered days of old. I assume thats why we visit this site.…to escape from the negativity of current media and have reasoned discussions.

Admittedly, Buckley was more libertarian on stuff like immigration and I believe drug legalization, similar to Ron Paul. I was myself until recently. Then I finally figured out that alot of libertarianism is good in theory,but is unworkable in today’s USA.

Btw, Rhinos are grazing animals with horns. RINOS are politicians
#118 written by curious jane 2 months ago

rgbact,
You’re right I spelled Rino wrong. You brought up that I had a distorted view of Buckley and media “in those days” I admit I was not able to go to college (“which is for snobs” and “indoctrinates”, these days. I am way out of my league here. I came from very poor roots and options for women and jobs for woman were limited. I have known what labor at the mercy of corporations suffered, the lack of upward mobility. Families sat a dinner tables and discussed their day, their problems, politics etc. I remember excitement at a minimun wage of $1.oo an hour. Today we barely got a law for $9 something and hour and Republicans hate the minimun wage. You guys don’t talk about how much the jobs out there pay, how the country disparity is back to the days of the robber baron, wages for most have flatline or fallen. I am not so dumb I don’t recognize that something is morally wrong and IMO not Christian values. I hear people on the right claiming that they know God’s will, I remember the vitriole because JFK was Catholic and the Pope would take over the USA. I remember MacCarthyism and the evil that caused. I remember when woman were beaten by their husbands and there was no law to protect them. I remember the horror of the slaughter houses of abortion. I know Jesus’s words many times warning the rich.
At least I have respect for knowlege look to people who are more informed. Maybe I am more like the majority of folks. I know that oaths are sacred and what the Republicans have done. I know of the problems with Medicaid and the biggest one to me seems to be how it is managed so recklessly. I know the Health Care companies acted like Gods in determining who gets health care. I was one who could not get insurance because of a disability. I respected the Republicans to balance extemely liberal trends. I no longer respect them nor can I agree with them, my Bible tells me they are wong-bent and full of false pride in their interpretations. I believe a woman should have a personal relationship with her doctor and choices for Her body and her health. I loved it when a female legislature proposed a bill to ban coverage for vasectomies, as a tit for tat. If I waste this blogs time I hope that management tells me so. I can’t bring myself to respect the Republican path these days. My older relatives used to say “you will rue the day you started on this wrong-bent path”.
#119 written by GROG 2 months ago

Max,

WHAT????
You mean crude that was underground for millions of years, that is stored in underground caverns, has a “freshness date”????
C’mon, bro! Ya gotta at LEAST LOOK like yer tryin’!!!!

Yeah, I have know idea where I came up with that. I thought I remembered reading somewhere that oil from the reserve was sold and bought on a regular basis (same amount coming in and going out), but I’m obviously wrong on that one. My bad.
#120 written by rgbact 2 months ago

I admit I was not able to go to college (“which is for snobs” and “indoctrinates”, these days. I am way out of my league here.
I appreciate your perspective as I admit to getting caught up in theories sometimes. All I ask is to consider how some of the policies you mention might actually hurt the people intended to help. Consider the minimum wage you mentioned and two scenarios:
1) We make the minimum wage $10, but allow employers fairly easy access to limitless 3^rd world labor to enter America and compete with low skilled Americans for that wage.
2) We lower the minimum wage, but low skilled Americans are assured that as long as their job stays in America, they will only have to compete with other Americans for that job.

Which scenario do you think will lead to more wage disparity and more “robber barons”?
#121 written by Max aka Birdpilot 2 months ago

but allow employers fairly easy access to limitless 3rdworld labor to enter America and compete with low skilled Americans for that wage.

Yep. But just you try to pass a law (oh DAMN! another regulation!!!) that would put CEO’s and company owners in jail for 5 years and fine them $100,000 per occurance for hiring a illegals and the GOP would crap a purple brick!!!!
#122 written by mostlyilurk 2 months ago

CJ,
You might want to point out to rgb that he consistently misspells “a lot” — it’s two words, not one.
#123 written by curious jane 2 months ago

It doesn’t make sense to me that a few people make 100 times more, or more than employees and can’t affford to pay a liveable wage to the middle class. It feels like monarchy instead of good business. Americans are the major buyers and money should trickle down some and it hasn’t. Profits are up salaries are down, I don’t believe the middle class wages are the problem. Business without morality doesn’t make sense to me. I know what capitalism is and I also know that it doesn’t work without morality. The middle class, it’s hard work made this country what it is. Why is it not clear that something is radically wrong with how profits are distributed? I don’t resent the wealthy but I don’t understand why all of the practices only support the extreme wealth of so few. Not only are top salaries so out of proportion but they get bonuses even as they cut jobs, it just seems wrong.

Maybe I am naïve thinking their should be some kind of responsibility to the workers. Countries without upward mobility have failed, in the past.
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