Supreme Court Watch: PPACA Day 3
Today is the third and final day of oral arguments in the epic Supreme Court lawsuits covering the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA, ACA or “Obamacare”).
There are two issues before the Court today, the last day of oral arguments in the case. The issue called “severability” will be discussed for 90 minutes in National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius and Florida v. Department of Health and Human Services. After a lunch recess, the Court will hear one hour of argument on the Medicaid expansion issue in Florida v. Department of Health and Human Services.
Most Court observers find the severability issue the more interesting one, and so I’m going to basically ignore the Medicaid expansion issue and talk about severability in this blog post. If you’re interested in Medicaid expansion, feel free to read up on this excellent analysis and then come back here to discuss it.
What is severability? Simply put, it’s the idea that Congress can pass a law that has an unconstitutional provision inside of it, but that does not necessarily invalidate the remainder of the law. With a law that weighs in at 2,700 pages, determining the severability of the PPACA will be a monumental task.
Severability is essentially an argument for judicial restraint and separation of powers: the Supreme Court should respect Congress’s lawmaking authority and not do unnecessary violence to Congress’s creations, even ugly ones like the PPACA. Remove the cancer, the argument goes, but don’t kill the patient.
One surreal aspect of this whole enterprise is that the Court is asking a question that is a hypothetical on top of a hypothetical. The first hypothetical has been discussed in our two previous articles on Monday and Tuesday. The Supreme Court is being asked to strike down provisions of a law that have yet to be imposed on any citizen. That’s the point of arguing about the Anti-Injunction Act, because if the individual mandate is a tax, then the Court cannot issue an injunction against it before it is implemented in 2014. Now a further hypothetical is stacked on top of this: “Let’s assume we find the individual mandate unconstitutional. Does that invalidate the entire law?”
Befitting the unusual nature of this case, the Court has taken an unusual step. Along with accepting arguments and amicus briefs from those challenging the law (the 26 states’ Attorneys General) and from the U.S. Government’s Solicitor General Donald B. Verelli defending the law, they have opened up a third front in this legal war.
The states’ Attorneys General argue against severability (kill the law! stab it with knives!). They want the law thrown out in its entirety.
Solicitor General Verelli, like Robbie Robertson, will argue that you should take what you need and leave the rest, but you should never have taken the very best. Verelli argued in his brief that if the mandate goes, then the preëxisting condition and the premium increase limit clauses must also go. This position supports the rumors of a Faustian bargain made by the Obama Administration: according to this theory, Obama and a Democratic Congress sold the American people out in the ACA in order to get insurance companies and Big Pharma on board and keep them from running “Harry & Louise”-type ads.
The economic argument goes like this. The individual mandate is needed to maintain a steady flow of capital to the insurance companies, in the form of healthy young people who will pay premiums to support the health care of the chronically ill and the elderly. Recall that about one-quarter of medical expenses are incurred during the last year of life. Similarly, ten percent of Medicare beneficiaries consume two thirds of the Medicare dollars. Absent this guaranteed cash pipeline, the argument goes, a “death spiral” will result that will kill the insurance industry. This is the essence of Verelli’s argument.

Bartow Farr’s grandfather, H. Bartow Farr, successfully sued David O. Selznick on behalf of Vivien Leigh.
The Court has engaged H. Bartow Farr, III of Farr & Taranto, a prestigious Washington law firm, to argue a third position, one held by neither the law’s opponents nor its supporters. The third position is this: not only is the law severable, but the Court could kill the mandate by ruling it unconstitutional and let the rest of the law stand. That is, the dire predictions of a death spiral if the mandate were removed are overblown.
As veteran Court watcher Lyle Dennison said at SCOTUSblog,
As a final departure from the positions of the combatants, Farr disagreed that, if the mandate is nullified, a “death spiral” would set in that would bring down the entire new health care law because it would deprive the insurance companies of the guaranteed pool of premium-payers and yet they would still have to cover the medical services that the uninsured would need in the future. Congress, Farr said, has put into the ACA mechanisms to head off that prospect. There are incentives for the uninsured to buy insurance before they are sick, he said, and there are generous subsidies to entice low-income people to go into the market for insurance even while they are in good health. There would be no “death spiral,” he argued.
Farr’s bottom line: if the Court strikes down the mandate, that and its attached penalty for not obtaining insurance, “and nothing more,” should be cast aside. “The Court should seldom invalidate statutory provisions that are not themselves unconstitutional,” he summed up.
Denniston believes that by calling in Farr, the Court has tipped its hand and is giving a clue as to one possible outcome: ruling the mandate unconstitutional, while keeping the remainder of the law.
The Court, of course, has the complete option to accept, reject or ignore the arguments made by Farr, even though it invited him to make them. But the reality is that the Court is very careful in selecting lawyers to perform that unusual role, and it has a good deal of respect for what it hears from them.
The teenaged boy in me, who likes to see a punishment meted out to big companies who have caused so much suffering, wants very much for this outcome to take place. The insurance industry has said all along that absent a mandate, they can’t survive if they aren’t allowed to do business as before, dropping people like a bad habit if they get sick, or denying people coverage for having preëxisting conditions like being female. This is the “death spiral” argument. Farr argues in his brief — and I agree — that Congress built protections against such a “death spiral” into the Act, and that if the Court finds the mandate unconstitutional, the proper course is to leave the remainder of ACA intact.
We’ll find out what happens in June. Until then, let’s gather here to read the tea leaves from the oral arguments.
Related articles
- Infographic: The Arguments About The Medicaid Expansion In The PPACA (theinsurancebarn.wordpress.com)
- Court to address 4 big issues (cnn.com)
- What About the Employer Mandate? Companies Watching Supreme Court Case (thehealthcareblog.com)

This entry was posted by Monotreme on March 28, 2012 at 3:00 am, and is filed under Supreme Court Watch. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0.You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.
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Court observers have speculated that Justice Kennedy is the “swing vote”. According to their analysis, Kennedy actually swings two votes: the Court is unlikely to decide a major issue by a bare 5–4 margin, and so Chief Justice Roberts moves with the majority to make it 6–3.
Yesterday, Justice Kennedy talked about the mandate fundamentally changing the relationship of people to the government, and it looked like he was going against the mandate.
Even though Farr apparently did an excellent job walking the justices through severability, and one gets the feeling this is their preferred path, none of them want to sort through a 2700 page law.
Lyle Denniston over at SCOTUSblog has his usual excellent analysis of the day’s arguments, and it’s a quick read:
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#4 written by Max aka Birdpilot 1 year ago
cj,
A shame that the Party that TALKS all the time about “American Exceptionalism” is doing everything to the funding to those institutions that made America great to the point that there shortly will be no more exceptionalism.
Here in South Texas we get a LOT of winter Texans from Canada, principally from Manitoba, Alberta, BC and Ontario. Most are here for the golf, so I see, and talk with, a LOT of them.
In spite of the Republican meme about how poorly run the Canadian health system is, the NEXT Canadian that tells me that they would rather trade their system for what we have here WILL BE THE FIRST!!!!!!
That ought to speak volumns! -
Jane, if I were betting today, here’s how I would lay down my markers.
1. The most likely outcome, I think, is for the mandate being unconstitutional but severable. If Congress wants to rescue the insurance industry, the ball’s back in their court. This is the position taken by the court-appointed attorney Farr. I could see this going 6–3 with a strong dissent from Sotomayor, Kagan and Ginsburg supporting the government’s position.
2. The second most likely outcome is that the law survives intact, but only by 5–4, with Kennedy reluctantly agreeing to the mandate only because severability is such a difficult problem.
I honestly don’t see the Court striking down the entire law because of the mandate (Justices Alito, Scalia and Thomas might, but I don’t think they can convince anyone else), but I do think that a majority of the Court (add Justices Kennedy and Breyer and Chief Justice Roberts) finds the mandate unpalatable. “Unpalatable” doesn’t necessarily mean unconstitutional.
I think it will be fascinating to see how they split this baby. It seems to me they’re divided into thirds.
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#6 written by rgbact 1 year ago
I must be an crazy but I still think it stands. Seems reasonable that justices would have alot of “devil’s advocate” questions, which to me doesn’t necessarily mean they want to strike something down.
Sure I hate Obamacare, but the fact is alot of time and research was put into developing it and I think the justices will decide that these issues are part of governing that the people need to figure out, not have 9 people decide after a couple hours of debate.
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curious jane,
I don’t understand why people don’t know that it is protection not government intrusion.
Being ordered by the government to buy something (even if it’s something they would have bought anyway) gets many Americans’ ire up. Being ordered to buy something “for your own good” doesn’t make it any better.
Aside from a few policy partisan wonks, it’s only the individual mandate that feels like government intrusion to most Americans. The rest sounds peachy-keen.
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#8 written by parksie555 1 year ago
Interesting is the fact that if the law had not been rammed through via the budget reconciliation process, the question of severability would not even be a topic for discussion…
“The House version of the bill included a clause that said the law could stand without the individual mandate, but lawmakers never had a chance to add it to the Senate bill, which became the basis of the law. In order to push the bill through the Senate with only 51 votes, Democratic leaders passed it through the budget reconciliation process. The catch: lawmakers couldn’t add any provision that didn’t have a budget impact — so they couldn’t add a severability clause.”Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0312/74591_Page2.html#ixzz1qQsbIKfn
Whoops!
Doesn’t much matter. My guess is that in the very, very long run that Medicare will become the universal single payer system that liberals have been creaming for since the beginning.
Hopefully I’ll be in a pine box long before that happens. -
#9 written by rgbact 1 year ago
Doesn’t much matter. My guess is that in the very, very long run that Medicare will become the universal single payer system that liberals have been creaming for since the beginning.
Its going bust in like 7 years and Paul Ryan has almost every Republican (and Ron Wyden and maybe other Democrats) on board to fundamentally change/curtail it.…..so thats a mighty bold prediction. -
Parksie,
Just more evidence for why Congress is deeply dysfunctional, truly The Broken Branch.
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#11 written by shortchain 1 year ago
Given that we as a country are being bankrupted by out-of-control medical costs, there are only a few ways out:
1. The Republican plan: just cut coverage for seniors and people who can’t afford to pay their own way. Success of this plan requires people to agree to die, or live with poor health, for the common good. Sure, I see that happening.
2. Single Payer: (Medicare for everybody, with panels of experts to determine what will be paid for). The health insurance lobby and the medical care lobby will fight this out until the last of them is drawn and quartered. It means that a medical degree will no longer be an invitation to join the wealthy, and health insurance companies will become bit players. Medical care will drop back to the historical average of 10th place or lower in the economy.
3. The hideous contraption that the ACA represents is found constitutional, and we live with its arcane, ridiculous, and downright bizarre compromises, and we go along a middle path between the two above.
Medicare can trivially be made financially sound with a tiny increase in the tax to pay for it (which is already a tiny tax) — but the idea that any increase in taxes is too much has taken root in the public consciousness, thanks to relentless fear-mongering by the right wing, so we may just end up with a lot of people dying needlessly so that the wealthy can keep their money.
Proving, as if anybody needed proof, that man is not a rational animal, but rather a rationalizing animal.
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shortchain,
1. The Republican plan: just cut coverage for seniors and people who can’t afford to pay their own way. Success of this plan requires people to agree to die, or live with poor health, for the common good. Sure, I see that happening.
You misunderstand. Success requires people to agree to let other people die, or live with poor health, for the common good. The Lake Wobegon effect ensures that nobody (or, more accurately, few enough people) believes that they will be hurt by this model.
Medicare can trivially be made financially sound with a tiny increase in the tax to pay for it
Yes, and no. Part A can be made financially sound with a tiny increase. But if we want to do it “correctly”, we need to have the Medicare payroll tax cover all parts, which would require (if memory serves me correctly) about a tripling in the tax rate.
On the other hand, that, plus expiration of the Bush tax cuts, plus eliminating the cap on the Social Security payroll tax, would take care of our deficit. Again, this is going from memory, so I might be off by a little bit.
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#14 written by mclever 1 year ago
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#15 written by mclever 1 year ago
@shortchain
In your “single payer” option #2, I still see plenty of room for the insurance companies to operate. Whatever the Universal Medicare plan decided to cover, there would always be room for “premium” coverage plans to provide more comprehensive coverage for experimental procedures or other expensive alternate treatments. I think something like this happens in the British health care market, if I’m not mistaken.
And the situation with a medical degree being an invitation to wealth only applies after all the medical school bills are paid off, which sometimes takes new doctors a decade or more of financial difficulty to accomplish. Considering that there are doctor shortages, perhaps it would behoove the powers that be to consider subsidizing medical school expenses in exchange for lower doctor salaries and less risk of litigation? Something worth considering… -
#16 written by shortchain 1 year ago
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Interesting is the fact that if the law had not been rammed through via the budget reconciliation process, the question of severability would not even be a topic for discussion…
You meant to say that if Republicans had not demonized health care, and blindly voted against everything that was put forward, even suggestions they themselves had made, perhaps there would have been no necessity to use the sorts of tricks that Republicans had used as a matter of course during the Bush era.
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shortchain,
do your numbers factor in the ability for Medicare to negotiate drug prices?
No. That would reduce the expenditures somewhat, though (I think) “only” a quarter of the total increase. In other words, we’d still need to more than double the Medicare tax.
I’m getting 404 errors when I hit “post comment”.
Sorry about that. I think one of the sites that shares our server has been hammering us a little today. Our service provider has been threatening to shut them down.
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#21 written by Mainer 1 year ago
With Scalia it matters no more Michael than these pointless oral arguments, did any one even bother to correct him or is giving factual information to the SCOTUS no longer considred worthy of the effort? I suspect their position papers or what ever they are called were already written before this weeks operation in legal mime theater commenced.
So with health care reform now about to be dead for my life span what a wonderful legacy we leave but never forget as the Republicans constantly remind us it is for the children.….hmmmm maybe for the fetus but the children and their parents are on their own. Such a wonderful spiteful land we now live in.
But as I asked on another topic does this not set the Democrats up with just one more very large club to wield? Killing health care reform just guarentees votes the Republicans already had. So when do they start doing some thing that will get them more than their base or have they so coöpted the electoral process that 30% will win this for them in November?
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#22 written by curious jane 1 year ago
Having a law passed after all these years is a victory. The for profit insurance companies were treating people and lives like statistics. They have been put on notice.
Maybe with more affordable insurance will quit using emergency rooms as their clinics. That is the problem with people thinking they’re fine and don’t need insurance. That is one of the biggest health care costs. Of course let’s stop funding on low income clinics and force people to use the emergency rooom for everything. -
Tweety just mentioned politicians, mostly liberal, have been trying to pass universal health care for (((100))) years. Then Obama, by the skin of his teeth, finally gets a relatively bad solution, because of conservative Dems, passed thru a liberal congress.
But at least it covers pre-existing conditions and extends family coverage, etc.
So, do you want to be one of (5) conservative SC justices who totally destroy what it took 100 years trying to solve a major societal/political issue w/a flawed, but initial solution to America’s heath care problem.
What does Kennedy want to be remembered for, especially after the Citizens United disaster. Does he care about his judicial legacy?
Stay tuned …
>
The continuing irony is what Obama signed was mostly the conservative solution from 20⁄30 years ago.
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#25 written by Mainer 1 year ago
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#26 written by Mainer 1 year ago
Oops make that disbar, Freud is alive and well in the snow in Maine. What would be even more tragically funny would be if in the majority opinion that dumsterizes health care reform one of the things that gets mentioned as a rationale would be the Cornhusker Kickback and death pannels and any number of other right wing Fox talking points.….…That couldn’t happen right.….Michael not happening right?.…..Hope some one proof read the majority opinion when ALEC sent it over to SCOTUS last week.
Shiloh when was the last time an ideologue gave two shits in a tin cup about their legacy? Or the American people, or facts, or history, or just about any thing that didn’t have the picture of a dead president on it. -
Shiloh when was the last time an ideologue gave two shits in a tin cup about their legacy?
Supposedly er it’s been reported Roberts cares about his legacy ie a multitude of 5⁄4 decisions re: major political decisions decided by political ideology of SC justices.
The salient question: How much does he care?
It’s obvious Thomas, Alito and Scalia don’t care … Thomas, a token minority appointee, not qualified for the SC notwithstanding.
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#28 written by Mainer 1 year ago
Shiloh I think at some point Roberts could become a wild card. I still believe that he is bright, and I do think while conservative he is a major cut above the Three Stooges you mentioned with him. Kennedy is just a loose cannon that needs constant stroking and his biggest problem is the position he has placed him self in to curry the stroking.
I have read some stuff that would seem to indicate that Roberts isn’t any too happy with how Citizens United has already played out. Is it possible he was given assurances that what has happened would not happen? Or is he far less bright and open minded than even I would like to think? -
I would not be so glum about PPACA being overturned in its entirety. There are only three Justices who even seem to be leaning that way: the usual cadre of Thomas, Scalia, and Alito. I don’t think it can get more votes than that.
See, for example: http://www.scotusblog.com/2012/03/in-plain-english-is-half-a-loaf-better-than-no-loaf/
When [lawyer for the states challenging PPACA] Clement sat down, there did not seem to be five Justices who wanted to strike the entire ACA down if the mandate is found unconstitutional. Indeed, it was probably not a good sign for Clement that Justice Samuel Alito – whom Clement might have hoped to have on his side – asked him to provide his “fallback argument.”
The question, I believe, will hinge on severability. That’s why I was eager to write today’s article.
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#30 written by Mainer 1 year ago
Mono to at least 3 members of the court no loaf is prefered. After that you have Kennedy that wants so baddly to be one of the cool in kids and will slug his way along with the fab 3. In case of a tie Roberts will take one for the team.
I restate my position. Stick a fork in it for it is done and will not be redone in my life time. And there will be glee through out the Republican land. -
Time will tell. I disagree. I am betting (not based on knowledge, just a hunch) that they overturn the mandate and sever the rest of the law. I don’t know if it’s possible, but I could see them saying to Congress, “the mandate is unconstitutional, here, we give this back to you, you fix it.”
Max, mostlyilurk, can they appoint a Special Master to go through the law and sever the unconstitutional provisions?
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#34 written by Mainer 1 year ago
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#35 written by mostlyilurk 1 year ago
Mono,
Off the top of my head, I don’t believe that they can (or even would) do that.
I was actually a sort of surprised at Scalia’s joke about how his having to read the 2700 page law would violate the 8th Amendment’s ban on cruel and unusual punishment — since it seems to me that a) it’s part of his job and b) he has lots of people to assist him in that regard. I suppose that contemplating the potentially tragic results of the SCOTUS decision has affected any sense of humor that I might have otherwise had. -
#36 written by GROG 1 year ago
To think how confident the far left a couple short years ago. According the Think Progress, in 2009 when Nancy Pelosi was asked:
“Where specifically does the Constitution grant Congress the authority to enact an individual health insurance mandate?”“
Pelosi replied:
“Are you serious? Are you serious?”
Think Progress went on to say:
Pelosi is right to be dismissive of the fringe right-wing theory behind this question, which has no basis in the Constitution itself. Article 1 of the Constitution gives Congress the power “[t]o regulate commerce…among the several states” as well as the authority to “make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution” its power to regulate commerce.-Een ultra-conservative Justice Antonin Scalia acknowledges that these constitutional provisions give Congress sweeping authority to enact laws that regulate “economic activity.”
CNSNews’ question to the House Speaker essentially parrots a claim by two discredited right-wing attorneys that a provision of health reform known as the “individual mandate” exceeds Congress’ authority because it does not regulate economic activity. This claim is wrong.That’s just good stuff.
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Grog,
Think Progress was right. So was Ms Pelosi. Partisan Republicans don’t have to actually have a basis in the Constitution for their claim that something is unconstitutional. They have to merely keep repeating their baseless claims. This is the Republican way — keep repeating lies, and eventually people believe them.
That partisan Republicans on the Supreme Court also use this technique is far from shocking. The string of activist partisan 5–4 decisions since Bush v. Gore says all that needs to be said in that regard.
There really is no question that PPACA is compatible with the powers of Congress as described in the Constitution and as exercised for over 200 years. That doesn’t stop Republicans (who came up with the idea of the individual mandate, and who embraced it until it became part of the law) from dishonestly using it for what they mistakenly believe will be to their short-term partisan advantage.
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#38 written by parksie555 1 year ago
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Let me lay down my personal feelings on this matter, based on lots of thought and my experience inside the health care system for 30 years.
I generally don’t think in Manichean, black-or-white terms, but this time I think we as a nation have a stark choice.
Is health care a commodity, or is it a right?
If it is a commodity, then we must abandon our current system. Like housing or food or child care, our services will depend on our ability to pay. Government may choose to subsidize those things for the poorest among us, but that should be the extent of government involvement, and if any individual is both poor and afflicted with a grave genetic disease, then screw ‘em. As Ron Paul’s supporters say, “let him die”.
Alternatively, we can determine that basic health care is a right. As in the system used in Canada and other countries, there is a single-payer model for basic health care services. Panels will decide who gets what and when. Those with means can, and will, shop for higher levels of service or even unnecessary and frivolous services like the annual whole-body MRI scan or the penile implants.
Note that either way, health care should not be tied to employment. It’s a stupid system that creates perverse incentives and disincentives and slows down commerce.
I honestly think it’s one or the other. This halfway system we have now is choking us (look at these charts: it’s easy to spot the US as an outlier in each and every measure). Something must be done.
Along with changes in tax and fiscal policy, it’s time for the American people to demand that Congress get off the stick and do their jobs. In that regard, I agree with Scalia — and he and I don’t agree on very much.
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#41 written by Max aka Birdpilot 1 year ago
I STILL refuse to call this one!!
As is the case with many bills, this legislation has a LOT of crap (legislative legal term) built in. One would do well to remember that the President DID NOT support the individual mandate and campaigned against Clinton’s position in favor during the primary. As has been pointed out, the vast bulk of the bill has it’s roots in the Republican alternative to “Hillarycare” back in 1993 and IS BASED on the original work done by the Heritage Foundation. “Romneycare” in Massachusetts, the “blueprint” for the legislation is almost identical, including the contentious issue before the SCOTUS of the individual mandate. The President’s willingness to accept the mandate was part of a vain attempt to get a bipartisan vote, on a bill that IS ESSENTIALLY A GOP BILL!!! Regretfully, the hostile nature, almost unprecedented since the days of Blaine/Cleveland! -
Monotreme,
Is health care a commodity, or is it a right?
I tried to get that point across before, but you did a far better job of simplifying it there. That really is the fundamental question.
As a society, our behavior says that we’ve decided that it’s a right. Otherwise, we would not have a mandate to provide treatment to people who show up at the emergency room, regardless of their ability to pay. So we either need to rescind the must-treat requirements, or acknowledge across the board that we consider it a right.
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#45 written by Mainer 1 year ago
Yes and Republicans proposed some thing like 210 ammendments to the bill of which all but I think 46 were incorporated. But according to them they had no input. Fact is they laced the reform with as many poison pills as they could game into the system along with folks like Evan bought and paid for Byah.
Now be care full with James G. Blaine. Blaine, Blaine, James G. Blaine. Continental liar from the state of Maine. Interesting factoid. Our state govenors residence is named after him and not some one of better stature like Hamibal Hamlin. Odd how politics works. -
#46 written by mclever 1 year ago
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mclever,
It’s certainly not my preference. But we live in a representative democracy (at least in theory). So, if that’s what we, collectively, choose to have, then that’s what we get.Does the right to life (something, incidentally, not in the Constitution, but rather in the Declaration of Independence) extend to the right to have one’s life preserved at others’ expense?
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#50 written by rgbact 1 year ago
Too funny that Democrats (and Newt/Santorum) have spent the last year creating the narrative of “the individual mandate =Romneycare=PPACA” so they could beat Romney over the head with it, while ignoring all the other stuff in PPACA. So now everyone is convinced and even justices think without the mandate, you might as well throw the whole thing out, as there’s not much else to it. Ahh, the sweet irony of this whole débâcle. -
#51 written by Mainer 1 year ago
rgb I’ll share sweet irony with you. At the coffee shop this AM a prominent local Republican wife tore a couple of the local tighty whities (ok hard to find minorities here so that was kind of a given) new anal pores. The righties were chortling over the potential demise of health care reform when the GOP matron laid out some of the same stuff I did the other day about preexisting conditions, kids in school getting started, the working poor and health care access, the financial condition of our own local health care system and then asked them what they proposed to do next with their great win. The lady is not a liberal by any means but she is an actual small business owner and life long resident. The health of our local work force is starting to have a negative effect on actual business, for those business owners that are actually employing people and creating real jobs some thing needs to be done so Republicans with your great win most likely in pocket your turn how will Y O U fix this mess? Or is do nothing your only option?
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#52 written by rgbact 1 year ago
how will Y O U fix this mess? Or is do nothing your only option?
Have your state pass a version of Romneycare. You’re right next door after all. Mandate all Mainers buy coverage.…eliminate the pre-existing conditions.….done. Why are you guys waiting for Obama to bail you out of governing your own state?Btw, I wouldn’t call it a win. I think people are way jumping the gun on it demise just like they did from the other side just a few days ago.
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#53 written by Mainer 1 year ago
Because rgb we have an asshat Republican govenor and legislature whose answer is to cut 65,000 Mainers off from the state level program we have now. We might very well do what you suggest but first we will have to divest ourselves from the dip wads that lied their way into office in 2010. But yes that is not a bad idea even if it was pure nark on your part.
I think you missed or I did not explain well the point of my mornings observation. This was not a liberal, this was a pretty dang conservative woman but a realist. If the Republicans only claim to fame is that they klled health care reform it isn’t going to be the mandate they get credit for it is going to be the individual elements that will be gone as well. This good lady thinks unless your side comes up with some thing meaningful and damned quick that it could very well be game over. I don’t know but if she sees it that way there have to be others. -
#54 written by Max aka Birdpilot 1 year ago
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#55 written by Mainer 1 year ago
Yup Max that is correct but we were once of Massachusetts and we fixed that small problem in 1820. Hell most folks think we are a part of Canada any way as the missing Atlantic Province so maybe we can just piggy back on with them.
New Hampshire (the land of escapee Mass, Republicans) Also well known as the beggar your Neighbor state, forms a sort of buffer. -
rgbact said,
Have your state pass a version of Romneycare. You’re right next door after all. Mandate all Mainers buy coverage.
But if SCOTUS strikes down the individual mandate, then it’s just as unconstitutional in Massachusetts as in any state. Under what legal theory do you propose it’s constitutional at the state level but unconstitutional at the Federal level?
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#57 written by rgbact 1 year ago
Under what legal theory do you propose it’s constitutional at the state level but unconstitutional at the Federal level?
Under the 10th amendment and the commerce clause that states don’t need to abide by. Just because the Feds need interstate commerce to regulate stuff, doesn’t mean the states do.
Mainer, I checked out a map and it looks like you need to drive about 50 miles through NH to get to Mass. but I still think its worth the trip to get the lowdown on Romneycare. Then you guys could adopt other pieces of PPACA, like expanding Medicaid eligibility, that make sense.
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Under what legal theory do you propose it’s constitutional at the state level but unconstitutional at the Federal level?
Rightists believe the Tenth Amendment protects states from having to follow federal law.
What I want to know is, if the Individual Mandate is unconstitutional, and if it is unconstitutional for states as well, then under what legal theory can states require their citizens to purchase auto insurance? Isn’t that forcing them to buy something they don’t want?
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#61 written by Mainer 1 year ago
rgb thanks for the come back. For me it is a 182 mile trip to get to the NH border then 37 to Mass which just puts me one the outer approaches to Boston. But I get your point. Yes for a state like our own creative use of the Medicade program would be the answer except our befudged govenor and his teaper legislature are more interested in cutting taxes for the very wealty and out of state corporations than they are with addressing the fact that we are the Appalachia of the Northeast and that we have major demographic, economic and health care issues.
We have an aging population, a population that is heavily made up of working poor and far too many people working dangerous and or dibilatating jobs. So they rail about the fact that we have above national average numbers for people qualifying for Medicade and the answer for them is to slash those numbers to conform with a national average rather than look at why we have so many of those individuals. Cutting 65 off the roles to make the numbers look better and balance the books isn’t the answer. Unproductive tax cuts isn’t either which is why the Republican lady I watched earlier today was so memorable.
rgb, I think we can both agree there are health care issues out there. Some of them I am seeing now affecting my family (no dead beats here my boys grew up working) but I have 2 of my 3 out side the system and it is only about to get worse. RGB we need answers and coherent plans for the future not gamesman ship. I don’t give a rats ass the win loss political list. I do have serious interest in how my hard working kids and their families can have health care. -
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Monotreme,
if the State of Mississippi makes it legal to lynch its residents of African descent, the Supreme Court has no say in that?
The 14th Amendment applies to the states, and therefore supercedes the 10th in areas in which the two conflict. While the lynching of African Americans would violate the 14th Amendment’s Due Process clause, I don’t think an insurance mandate, applied equally to all citizens of a state, would similarly so violate.
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#64 written by rgbact 1 year ago
Excellent article on the impact of political realities on the legal opinion of PPACA.…..along with how politics in general enters the courtroom.…which liberals like to ignore when decisions run their way.
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/03/did-bloggers-kill-the-health-care-mandate/255182/ -
DC: Because driving is a privilege, not a right, so one can choose to not drive and therefore not need to purchase auto insurance.
Yet voting is a right, and it’s okay to erect barriers to that (according to Republican partisan thought).
Still, I don’t see why it’s okay to force citizens to give their money to a private corporation to buy a product they don’t want, if it’s not okay to make them do that for the public good.
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#67 written by Mainer 1 year ago
Mono in some peoples minds the answer would probably be a yes. When you have people that have never bought into the concept of the U N I T E D states other than where it could benefit them then and any thing else was seen as causing them problems then sure.
Too bad we didn’t let Regan develope the Neutron bomb. -
DC,
Yet voting is a right, and it’s okay to erect barriers to that (according to Republican partisan thought).
Free speech is a right, and it’s okay to erect barriers to that, too. When barriers are erected against such rights, the reason is one of balancing the greater good against the individual right. Such barriers must be carefully crafted to minimize their impact on the right.
I don’t see why it’s okay to force citizens to give their money to a private corporation to buy a product they don’t want, if it’s not okay to make them do that for the public good.
Is this approach crafted narrowly enough to address the public good, while minimizing the impact on the individual’s rights? That’s the question the Court should be examining.
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Free speech is a right, and it’s okay to erect barriers to that, too.
Only when the speech in question is deemed to be dangerous.
Is this approach crafted narrowly enough to address the public good, while minimizing the impact on the individual’s rights? That’s the question the Court should be examining.
I agree.
One solution: it is clearly constitutional for the federal government to encourage states to require mandates from the citizenry. That’s why citizens are required to buy auto insurance. There simply has to be a law that provides funds to the states if they enact a mandate, or denies funds if they don’t. Seat belt laws, Medicaid, federal highway and education funding, and a host of other programs operate this way.
As an alternative to a federal insurance mandate, we could have a law that encourages states to enact state insurance mandates as a prequisite to receive (for example) federal funds to pay the emergency care for uninsured citizens.
Or federal funds could be used to help citizens pay for state-mandated health insurance. Or federal funds could be used to help states pay for energy programs (such as drilling for oil, buying wind farms, and so on) or simply as a prerequisite for any federal funding at all. Do you want to keep that naval base? Do you want federal subsidies for border patrols or highway maintenance? How about a simple block grant that the state can use any way it wishes?
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… if the State of Mississippi makes it legal to lynch its residents of African descent, the Supreme Court has no say in that? Hmm.
There are people who say that the First Amendment separation of church and state, or protection of speech and right to assemble, etc., only limits Congress, and does not in any way restrict state legislatures.
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#71 written by rgbact 1 year ago
I don’t give a rats ass the win loss political list. I do have serious interest in how my hard working kids and their families can have health care.
Do me a favor.…in your future discussions with your fellow Mainers about HC, suggest my idea of adopting Romneycare and see if anyone is interested. Let me know what people think. Who knows. In a state as small as Maine, anything is possible. -
An article suggesting that if the SCOTUS strikes down the Federal individual mandate, that lawsuits challenging Massachusetts’ law will follow.
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Monotreme —
I wonder how conservatives will handle that. On the one hand, The Individual Mandate is now EEEVVILL!! even though it was a conservative Republican idea that they breathlessly encouraged because it was a free-market alternative to “socialized medicine” — until Democrats embraced it, then it became The Mark of Satan. On the other hand, states are suppsoed to be able to anything they goddamwell want to, and the damn feds ain’t sposed to be stickin them thair noses inta our bidness.
I suspect they won’t worry about consistency of philosophy or honesty or truth or anything they said yesterday, and will instead push whatever position they think will whip up the most confused hatred and frantically panicked hand waving.
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The saddest thing about Scalia’s specious “broccoli” argument is that he (and the other wingers who advance that argument) are ignoring half of the proposed logic they’re seeking to ridicule.
What Scalia asked, basically, is that if we can “force” people to buy insurance because insurance affects interstate commerce, why can we not also “force” people to buy, say, broccoli, using that same justification?
To put this question in a less schoolyard fashion — is there something unique about healthcare that allows us to use the Commerce Clause to show that requiring the purchase of insurance is within the powers of Congress?
The answer, to use Scalia’s analogy, is that we will never have people on the edge of death stumbling into emergency broccoli clinics, and receiving life-saving broccoli which will have to be paid for by people from another state, because the recipients of emergency broccolicare had been refusing to buy their own broccoli.
As a nation, because of the “general welfare” clause, We the People have decided that everyone in this country has earned the benefit of emergency medical care, merely though being an American. We all engage in interstate commerce because we all use healthcare at some time or another — and we all pay for those who don’t pay for it themselves.
The comparison to broccoli was intended by FOX “News” watchers (like Scalia) as a combination reductio ad absurdum and slippery-slope argument showing that allowing the Individual Mandate to go forward would be a dangerous idea. We can do away with both of these parts of the broccoli diversion by noting that a requirement to purchase broccoli does not save lives in emergency situations, and that We the People have not already decided that all Americans have earned the right to receive broccoli as a life-saving measure.
It’s time for the conservative Justices of the Supreme Court to stop playing partisan games. Unless we decide that we want to allow people to die on the steps outside our hospitals, we have to recognize that broccoli is not healthcare, and stop pretending there is some kind of reasonable equivalence to be drawn for the sake of partisan ideology.
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#77 written by mostlyilurk 1 year ago
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#79 written by Max 1 year ago
dc,
More to the “interstate commerce” point: I can be uninsured in my home state and get state assistance, thanks to the higher prices hospitals charge my fellow in-staters and the additional premiums they pay. But, in today’s mobile society, next week I may be visiting a couple states over when hit with an appendicitis attack. SO now I impact the good folks in THAT state.
Thus the interstate commerce impact. -
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About Monotreme (243 posts)
Monotreme is an unabashed liberal and dog lover who lives in an almost-square state in the Western U.S. He keeps a second blog related to his work as a scientist and author at 7synapses.com.







This administration really missed their chance to laud this great achievement. Whether you like all the things in the bill, I don’t understand why people don’t know that it is protection not government intrusion. Everyone was subject to the whims of, for profit, insurance companies. The cap on coverage allowed insurance companies to say, sorry, you are in the middle of cancer treatment but you have reached your cap and they will not cover you. You have a preexisting condition and they will drop you. Many people paid for most of their lives and were healthy and then when they got sick the insurance companies figured out loopholes to drop them. The republican party has tried to get rid of medicare since it’s inception, obviously they prefer free enterprise over the health and lives of others less fortunate.
Schools, police, fire, health, mental health, community activities have been gutted and left in the hands of, for profit, companies we will be back to before the horrible dilema of greedy businesses. I am terrified for the sick, currently covered, who will lose their coverage and potential bargaining power if this law fails. Myself included. I have lost everything except basic needs because of health The internet and basic cable are my big luxuries and entertainment. I know many in the same boat. Do they not care?