Meme Watch: The Half Who Don’t Pay Taxes
Last fall, we began to hear the drumbeat of “half of all Americans pay no taxes”. Specifically, it was that they pay no federal income taxes, though that detail was often lost in the rhetoric. The topic became a hot one among the Republican Presidential candidates starting in mid-August, 2011.
With Tax Day nearly upon us, it seems worthwhile to investigate this topic in more depth.
Since this is a meme watch article, let’s start by looking at what was going on at that time that would trigger the meme’s formation. The hot topic in early August was the battle over the debt ceiling. As part of that battle, President Obama pushed for the expiration of the Bush tax cuts.
Given that Obama’s fallback position was to maintain the tax cuts for all but the most wealthy Americans, it’s unsurprising that the Republican retort was to focus instead on the ones who weren’t paying income tax at all. Hence, the meme.
The Heritage Foundation even went so far as to produce a pretty graph showing how the percentage of Americans not paying federal income taxes has been on the rise since the last years of the Reagan Presidency. There are numerous reasons for this, which we can examine in turn.
The Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) is one. It was created in 1975, and then expanded in 1986, 1990, 1993, 2001, and 2009. Note how the number of people not paying income taxes spiked in 1975, 1986, 1990, 2001, and 2009. That’s five out of the six EITC expansions.
One can certainly argue against the EITC, but it requires one to have earned income in order to claim it. This has, in fact, been an argument made by Republicans in the past in favor of the EITC. And it’s a good one, in that we want to encourage people to be employed where possible. Of course, if we have high unemployment caused by a larger supply of workers than demand for them, encouraging people to look for employment isn’t especially meaningful.
But this EITC group makes up only 7.5 percent of Americans, or 15 percent of those who aren’t paying federal income taxes. Clearly, the EITC can’t account for the growth in the nonpaying group.
Another reason for the increased number of nonpayers is age. The percentage of people 25 to 60 years old who pay federal income tax is a little over 70 percent. As they approach 65, the percentage of federal income taxpayers drops off sharply, dipping below 30 percent as they get into their 70s.
Why is this? It’s a combination of factors. One is that the number and size of income tax deductions increases for senior citizens. Social Security income is tax-exempt for most seniors. In addition, the shift in retirement income from pensions to tax-sheltered investment vehicles led to an increase in the amount of money put into tax-free investments such as municipal bonds. Put all of those together, and it’s not surprising to find that fewer than half of America’s seniors pay federal income tax.
And now that the baby boomers have begun to get beyond age 60, we should expect a steady rise in the number of Americans who aren’t paying federal income taxes. From 2000 to 2010, we had a 21 percent rise in the number of Americans over age 62, according to the Census Bureau. That’s more than double the overall population growth rate. The senior population should level off in a decade or so, and then begin to fall.
But even here we’re talking about only 11 percent of Americans. Coupled with the EITC group, it’s 18.5 percent, or a little over a third of those who aren’t paying federal income tax.
Of course, if you look at the graph above, you can clearly see that relatively few 20-year-olds are paying federal income taxes, too. This is hardly a surprise, since that group is disproportionately made up of people in college. And, among those not in college, few are able to earn enough to exceed the standard deduction and personal exemption. This is why 80 percent pay federal payroll taxes, even though only 30 percent pay federal income taxes.
Just as we had a rise in the percentage of the population made up of seniors, so too did we have a rise in the percentage of the population made up of 18–24 year olds. So the rise in the overall percentage of people not paying federal income taxes makes sense here, too.
From that same graph above, you can see that the group who is most likely to be paying federal income taxes is in the 25 to 55 age range. The only age group that the Census Bureau saw shrink from 2000 to 2010 is the 25–44 group. Clearly, if the overall population grew by 9.7 percent, and that subgroup shrank by 3.4 percent, you’d expect there to be an impact on the overall percentage of Americans who are paying federal income taxes.
In other words, a significant amount of the growth in nonpayers over the past decade comes from predictable demographic shifts.
There’s one other group, making up 6.5 percent of the population, or 13 percent of those not paying federal income taxes. These people made enough money to stay well above the poverty line, but had enough deductions to reduce their tax burdens to zero.
For each of these groups, what is to be gained by raising federal income taxes on them? Is it a token gesture? If so, then it’s a discussion entirely separate from that of addressing the federal deficit. If, on the other hand, it’s intended to close our deficit, then it’s pointless to go after this group, since it would have a mighty small impact. The total income for this group is about a trillion dollars per year. What sort of federal income tax rate would one propose for this?
Consider for a moment the impact of a one point increase in the effective federal income tax for the bottom 50 percent of all earners. To generate the same amount of additional federal income taxes from the top two percent (those earning at least $250,000 per year), we’d need to increase the effective federal income tax rate by a mere 0.125 points. Or, to turn it around, a one-point increase on the top two percent of earners would generate as much additional federal income tax revenues as an eight–point increase on the bottom 50 percent.
The bottom line here is simple. The only feasible reason for increasing the federal income tax on those who aren’t currently paying is as a token gesture. And that is a completely different discussion from the one that started this meme in the first place. Remember that? It was the debt ceiling, and Obama’s proposal to allow the Bush tax cuts to expire for those making over $200,000 per year. That makes the “half don’t pay taxes” meme a change of subject, not a counterargument, against allowing the Bush cuts to expire.
Related articles
- Who really pays the most Federal income tax? Part 2 (thedauntlessconservative.wordpress.com)
- The tax code’s EITC contribution to the safety net for the poor (dontmesswithtaxes.typepad.com)
- Hamilton Project: The Truth about Taxes — Just About Everyone Pays Them (taxprof.typepad.com)
- The Flawed Earned Income Credit (yeagercpa.wordpress.com)

This entry was posted by Michael Weiss on April 14, 2012 at 3:00 am, and is filed under Meme Watch. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0.You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.
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Thank you for this article, Michael.
Yes, the meme has been used as an argument against raising the tax rate on the wealthiest Americans with the most income. Somehow, the argument seems to go, around 50% of Americans are cleverly and evilly avoiding taxes. EIther they’re too lazy to pay, or too clever to pay. Either way, they are cheating the rest of us and forcing us to pay their share. Before we even consider raising taxes on the people who can most easily pay them, we should take more money from the people least able to pay.
Thank you for breaking this down and presenting some facts.
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#3 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
Somehow, the argument seems to go, around 50% of Americans are cleverly and evilly avoiding taxes. EIther they’re too lazy to pay, or too clever to pay. Either way, they are cheating the rest of us and forcing us to pay their share.
Can you point to who is making that argument? Thanks.
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Also see:
“This trend should concern everyone who supports America’s republican form of government,” Beach and Tyrrell wrote. “If the citizens’ representatives are elected by an increasing percentage of voters who pay no income tax, how long will it be before these representatives respond more to demands for yet more entitlements and subsidies from non-payers than to the pleas of taxpayers to exercise greater spending prudence?”
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#6 written by GROG 1 year ago
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#7 written by GROG 1 year ago
I see the meme this way:
A very small portion of Americans are paying an incredibly large portion of federal income taxes while a huge portion of Americans pay very little or no federal income taxes. And all in the name of fairness, the left want that small portion who pay a lot to pay an even larger share.
And the meme on the far left goes this way:
If only Warren Buffet were to pay the same rate as his secretary, we’ll raise enough money to stabilize our debt and deficits for the next decade. Plus it will be more fair that way.
I would like to see a “Meme Watch” article written on that. -
GROG,
Here’s another datapoint for you:
Calling someone a “rob[ber]” is tantamount to calling them “lazy” and/or “evil” and/or a “cheat” in my book. If you are looking for an exact juxtaposition of the words “evil” and “pays no income tax” then please use The Google yourself. I’m pretty sure you can find it.
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#11 written by GROG 1 year ago
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#12 written by GROG 1 year ago
I know of only one way in which that will happen.
I’m not a good enough writer to write an article here, but if I were, I would start by pointing out that, according to The Joint Committee on Taxation, the Buffet Rule would collect an additional $4 to $5 billion per year. Hardly enough to stabilize our debt and deficits for the next decade.
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GROG,
Yes, that was the headline. (http://mediamatters.org/research/201004090030) The report was a much more innocuous article from the Associated Press, but it did contain this quote from Curtis Dubay of the Heritage Foundation:
We have 50 percent of people who are getting something for nothing.
Also, this, from an editorial in the Las Vegas Review-Journal:
And when people get something for nothing, they have every incentive to continue voting to forward the bills for their goodies to someone else. For them, government assistance is a right, which helps explain the increasing number of anecdotes — from doctor’s offices and insurance companies — about callers asking where to sign up for their new, “free” health care.
That’s maddening for the dwindling taxpaying majority, especially those who make just enough to have to pay income taxes. For if their sentiments are tilted in the wrong direction and they demand to join the freeloading crowd, how soon before only 40 percent have to pay? How long before Tax Day is a headache for only 30 percent?
http://www.lvrj.com/opinion/tax-free-90336664.html
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#15 written by GROG 1 year ago
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#16 written by curious jane 1 year ago
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Innate talent counts.
Please make your points, Grog. We also have a fine editor-in-chief who will help with the rough spots without changing your argument.
But yes, whenever something like the proposed Buffet Rule is mentioned, someone trots out this tired meme that “50% pay no taxes! Let’s tax them first before we ask the Richy Riches of the world to pay more!”
There’s a reason nearly 50% pay no federal income taxes. They shouldn’t, and most of them really can’t.
I personally think the incredibly wealthy are capable of taking care of themselves, and don’t need to have the people they’re living off of (people like me and you) defending them.
Billionaires and millionaires — particularly stock traders and people who make most of money from capital gains — are not “job creators”. They are wage dependents, living off of the rest of us. It’s fair to ask them to give back to society. They did fine when the top marginal rate was a lot higher than it is now. And the rest of us did far better than we’re doing now.
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A very small portion of Americans are paying an incredibly large portion of federal income taxes while a huge portion of Americans pay very little or no federal income taxes. And all in the name of fairness, the left want that small portion who pay a lot to pay an even larger share.
What is it that you’d want? Do you want to tax Social Security benefits, and people who make under, say, $10,000? Do you want to tax everyone in the country the same dollar amount, or the same rate — and give up roads and the military and food inspections?
What’s the purpose of trying to use this “50%” meme as a counter argument to ending the subsidies we give to the immensely wealthy? (Having a cap gains rate lower than the income tax rate is a subsidy. Why do you want to continue giving billions in welfare to the wealthy?)
Do you honestly think America would be a better place if the young and the elderly and the poor and college students paid higher income taxes so we can cut the taxes of the immensely rich still more? Really?
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Monotreme’s link doesn’t work, but here is the source. I’m surprised to find just how long ago this was written.
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#20 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
Do you want to tax Social Security benefits, and people who make under, say, $10,000?
No. I think anyone who can legally avoid paying taxes, should avoid paying taxes. That’s why I don’t understand the claim that the right thinks those who don’t pay taxes are “lazy” or “evil”. Mono found some guy from the “Las Vegas Review something or other”, who made a claim like that a few years ago, but I certainly haven’t seen that claim made by any true conservatives.
What’s the purpose of trying to use this “50%” meme as a counter argument to ending the subsidies we give to the immensely wealthy?
This is probably the biggest divide between the right and the far left. You think lower tax rates are “subsidies”. The tiny percent who is “immensely wealthy” pay a huge percentage of the tax burden for the rest of us, and you think they should pay even more.
Do you honestly think America would be a better place if the young and the elderly and the poor and college students paid higher income taxes so we can cut the taxes of the immensely rich still more?
No. Who said anything about raising the taxes of the poor? Or about cutting taxes of the “immensely rich”? You’re fabricating arguments.
The top 10% of wage earners make about 43% of AGI and pay about 70% of federal income taxes which means the bottom 90% make 57% of AGI and pay about 30% of federal income taxes.
You think that distribution isn’t fair. What do you think would be “fair”? Should the top 10% pay 90% of federal income taxes? Should they pay 95%? What would be considered “fair”? -
#21 written by shortchain 1 year ago
GROG:
Who said anything about raising the taxes of the poor?
The House Republican caucus. No doubt you will stick by your “no true conservative wants to raise taxes on the poor”, though.
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#22 written by GROG 1 year ago
shortchain,
The House Republican caucus. No doubt you will stick by your “no true conservative wants to raise taxes on the poor”, though.That’s because Ryan’s budget doesn’t call for taxes to be raised on the poor.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/2012/04/02/gIQAjn0grS_graphic.html
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“Do you want to tax Social Security benefits, and people who make under, say, $10,000?”
No. I think anyone who can legally avoid paying taxes, should avoid paying taxes.
Then what is the point of talking about the “50% who don’t pay taxes” when someone suggests something like the Buffet Rule?
That’s not a rhetorical question. I really want to know.
Why bring up the fact that there are people too poor to pay taxes? Are you saying we should tax them before we raise taxes on the people who can easily afford to pay more? Or are you just making a comment that is actually unrelated to a conversation about what we should do with future tax rates?
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The tiny percent who is “immensely wealthy” pay a huge percentage of the tax burden for the rest of us, and you think they should pay even more.
Yes. Yes I do.
They have benefited far more than anyone else from the Reaganomic policies of hte last thirty years. America is now in an economic crisis. The only way we can get out of it is to increase federal revenues. The people most able to do that just happen to be the people who have most benefited from the policies that caused the crisis.
Furthermore, we know that in the 60s and 70s and 80s, and even the 90s, when the top marginal tax rate was higher, the entire economy did better. The last round of Reganonomic tax cuts that Bush rammed through Congress shut down job creation and contributed to massive federal deficits and a worldwide economic collapse. Let’s at least go back to Reagan-era tax rates.
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You think that distribution isn’t fair. What do you think would be “fair”? Should the top 10% pay 90% of federal income taxes? Should they pay 95%? What would be considered “fair”?
I very seldom use the word “fair” in talking about taxes. I’m aware that others (including the President) do use that word. I don’t think you’ll be able to find a comment or an article of mine in which I talk about whether a given tax structure is “fair.”
So I’ll let someone else respond (if anyone cares to) to the question of what is “fair.”
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#26 written by shortchain 1 year ago
GROG,
You can see whatever you want in the Rohrshach blot that is the Ryan budget — it’s nothing but a shell game. However, since there is every chance that, if Ryan get’s the chance, he’ll get his tax cuts on the wealthy, while there is no chance whatsoever that any loopholes will be closed, in order to make the exercise revenue neutral, taxes on the rest of us will have to be raised.
You apparently don’t read what you link to:Rep. Paul Ryan’s budget concentrates almost two-thirds of its cuts on programs that primarily serve low-income Americans even as its tax cuts disproportionately benefit millionaires.
Isn’t a cut in benefits equivalent to a tax increase?
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#27 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
Then what is the point of talking about the “50% who don’t pay taxes” when someone suggests something like the Buffet Rule?
Because of the whole “fairness” meme.
The only way we can get out of it is to increase federal revenues.
No, it’s not.
Furthermore, we know that in the 60s and 70s and 80s, and even the 90s, when the top marginal tax rate was higher, the entire economy did better.
There were a lot of reasons for that completely unrelated to marginal tax rates. You know that.
The last round of Reganonomic tax cuts that Bush rammed through Congress shut down job creation
I know you believe that, but it’s a false meme.
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“Then what is the point of talking about the “50% who don’t pay taxes” when someone suggests something like the Buffet Rule?”
Because of the whole “fairness” meme.
I’m being completely honest here. I don’t get it.
There is a practical suggestion made. Rather than address the reality of the situation and attempt to solve a very real problem, the response from the right is “no, we can’t increase taxes on the people who can afford to pay more, because the people who can’t afford to pay any aren’t paying any.”
I honestly don’t see the logic.
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“The last round of Reganonomic tax cuts that Bush rammed through Congress shut down job creation”
I know you believe that, but it’s a false meme.
In what way? We were told that cutting taxes for the wealthy would create jobs. We’re still being told that we can’t raise taxes on the “job creators.” Yet when we cut taxes for the immensely wealthy, job growth stagnated. It doesn’t work. Cutting their taxes doesn’t create jobs. Increasing their taxes doesn’t slow job creation (we had lots of job growth when their tax rate was higher).
So, what part of what I said was a “false meme?”
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#31 written by Armchair Warlord 1 year ago
GROG,
I kind of like my job. Considering we could disband the military and still have a deficit I wonder how you propose to balance the budget with cuts alone.
Oh, right. The right-wing meme nowadays is TAX CUTS –> ??? –> BALANCED BUDGET!If you have the mental acuity required to operate a firearm and not accidentally shoot yourself or others you have the mental acuity to determine that when “conservatives” in this country talk about the budget it is sound and fury, signifying nothing. And if I recall correctly, the GOP is the party of guns.
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#32 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC said:
“The last round of Reganonomic tax cuts that Bush rammed through Congress shut down job creation”
GROG said:
I know you believe that, but it’s a false meme.
DC said:
In what way? We were told that cutting taxes for the wealthy would create jobs.
After the Reagan tax cuts, 60 consecutive months of economic growth followed - the longest consecutive growth streak since the government began tracking such statistics in 1854. Eighteen million jobs were created under Reagan. The unemployment rate went from 9.7% in 1982 to 5.3% in 1989.
I would also like to see a “Meme Watch” article written on the meme that “Reagonomics shuts down job creation”.
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#33 written by GROG 1 year ago
AW,
I kind of like my job. Considering we could disband the military and still have a deficit I wonder how you propose to balance the budget with cuts alone.
First of all, I would not propose cutting military spending.
Secondly, DC said the only way we can “get out of” the economic crisis is to increase revenues (meaning tax increases). That is patently false. There are many other things that need to be done in order to “get out of” the economic crisis.
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#34 written by Max 1 year ago
GROG,
After the Reagan tax cuts, 60 consecutive months of economic growth followed …
Please do not pretend or ignore, one of which is what you are doing, that the following 60 months were simon-pure based on the original Reagan tax cuts.
I would be at least as correct in stating:
After the Reagan tax increases beginning in 1982, plus those in ’83, ’84 and ’86, and the spending levels of the Reagan administration at 22%+ of GDP, more than 10% over the 30 year average, AND the deficit spending that increased the National Debt threefold, 60 consecutive months of economic growth followed - the longest consecutive growth streak since the government began tracking such statistics in 1854.One could then conclude that a combination of tax increases, increased government spending and deficit spending, contributed to the economic growth during the referenced period.
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#35 written by GROG 1 year ago
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#36 written by Max 1 year ago
GROG,
You appear to agree with the meme that “Reagonomics shuts down job creation”?
Please, NEVER put words in my mouth. I find it offensive to me and asinine on the part of the person so doing.
Do YOU disagree with MY actual statement? To summarize for you: “Reaganomics, a combination of tax increases in 1982, ’83, ’84 and ’86, INCREASED federal spending AND historic, at the time, deficit spending, led to the creation of 18 million jobs and the reduced the unemployment rate from 9.7% to 5.3%.
Do you consider those factors “increased job creation”?
BTW, you make a point (twice) of the reduction of the UE rate decreasing from 9.7% to 5.3% over a 7 year period, 1982 to 1989. 4.4/7 = 0.63%/year. Since the high in October 2010 to now, a period of 1.5 years, the UE rate was reduced from 10.1% to 8.2%, or 1.9%. 1.9/1.5 = 1.27/year. That means Obama’s policies are reducing UE, (or stated another way, increasing job creation) at TWICE the rate that “Reaganomics” did. Facts is facts.
Anyway, the answer to my questions would be appreciated.
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#37 written by curious jane 1 year ago
Grog, How can you support paying off a deficit on the backs of schools, public police, fire, health, mental, health and public jobs. The tax breaks were before 2 wars (not on the books), medicare D unpaid for and deregulation that caused a financial colapse.
In history with wars and disasters the extremely rich have been called upon to help.. -
Grog, I note that you quoted me talking about “The last round of Reganonomic tax cuts that Bush rammed through Congress” and then you immediately changed the subject to the 1980’s. That’s a deflection. How about you address the fact that Bush’s tax cuts brought job growth in America to a screeching halt?
Let’s also point out that Reagan raised taxes eleven times. You cannot credit Regan’s tax cuts for anything good that came after, if you don’t also credit his tax increases.
By the way, Reagan’s faux economic boom was caused by the same factors that caused Bush’s faux boom for the first six years of his administration — massive government deficit spending, mostly on things that don’t benefit the economy long-term. Reagan and Bush both spent enormous amounts of borrowed money on building war toys, which created immediate economic activity but did nothing to improve America’s infrastructure.
If you’re going to say anything good about Reagan’s economic impact, you also have to admit that massive government overspending helps the economy (though I would add that he spent it in the wrong places). You’re making an argument in favor of massive stimulus spending by the Federal Government.
So, again — Shrub proved that tax cuts for the wealthy don’t create jobs. Or else we would never have had six to eight million jobs lost in the Shrub collapse.
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DC said the only way we can “get out of” the economic crisis is to increase revenues (meaning tax increases). That is patently false. There are many other things that need to be done in order to “get out of” the economic crisis.
I then clarified, that revenue increases must be part of the solution. I apologize for any confusion.
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#42 written by Max 1 year ago
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#43 written by Armchair Warlord 1 year ago
GROG,
I get that you, personally would not do that, but thanks to a budget-cutting law passed entirely at the behest of the GOP my service is now letting one of every six of its members go and facing massive additional cuts unless action is taken by Congress, while entitlements are totally untouched. The GOP has shown itself to be uninterested in rolling back existing defense cuts and has not presented practical plans to prevent sequestration, so I’m afraid your stated position of giving a damn about the well-being of the military rings hollow. -
#44 written by GROG 1 year ago
Max,
Please, NEVER put words in my mouth. I find it offensive to me and asinine on the part of the person so doing.
Okay, but I consider you to be a consistent commenter. Therefore when you openly object to a point I make, but you don’t openly object to a point DC makes, I assume you agree with DC.
Unless you give a pass to the lefties but not to the righties, but I don’t take you for that kind of person. -
#45 written by GROG 1 year ago
Max,
Reaganomics, a combination of tax increases in 1982, ’83, ’84 and ’86
Taxes decreased drastically during the Reagan administration. Job creation and economic growth rose a lot during the Reagan administration. The UE rate fell by almost half during the Reagan administration.
Do you consider those factors “increased job creation”?
I consider creating 18 million jobs and cutting the UE almost in half, job creation.
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#46 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
So, again — Shrub proved that tax cuts for the wealthy don’t create jobs. Or else we would never have had six to eight million jobs lost in the Shrub collapse.
There were a lot of factors that led to the economic collapse. I can eat healthy ever day of my life and then get hit by a bus and die. Does that mean eating healthy doesn’t lead to longevity?
GROG, you are an immensely good sport for continuing to engage and discuss. Especially when several others are challenging you at once. I give you immense kudos and thanks and acknowledgement for your perseverance and dedication. Thank you.
Thank you. I appreciate that, a lot.
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#49 written by Max 1 year ago
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There were a lot of factors that led to the economic collapse.
Grog, that’s an excellent point. Similarly, there was a lot going on during the 1980’s. We can’t credit whatever positives might have come out of that period solely on the Reagan tax cuts.
Yes, I oversimplified the connection between the Bush-era tax cuts and the stagnation of American job growth. There were other things going on. Essentially, the entire retinue of conservative economic principles, which Bush implemented, and which the new Republican / Ryan / Romney plans would restore, led to the stagnation of the American middle class and the eventual economic collapse of 2008 / 2009. If tax cuts for the immensely wealthy “job creators” will invariably and inevitably lead to job growth, that wouldn’t have happened. Clearly, the Real World(tm) is more complex than that.
I know you want to blame Katrina and 9–11 for the disaster that was Bush. But the American response to these events was in keeping with the Republican / Ryan / Romney philosophy. It is not the events, but the response to the events, that is to blame. We could have reacted differently. We didn’t — because we had a Republican as president, and Republicans ruling Congress.
I do not want to return to those destructive principles. They are proven failures. In contrast, we’ve now had two years of solid job gains and economic growth, as a result of policies that President Obama has managed to implement over consistent and unflinching Republican objection.
That’s how I see it.
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#52 written by GROG 1 year ago
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#53 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
Essentially, the entire retinue of conservative economic principles, which Bush implemented, and which the new Republican / Ryan / Romney plans would restore, led to the stagnation of the American middle class and the eventual economic collapse of 2008 / 2009.
That’s just not true. I understand that you want very badly for it to be true, but it’s not.
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When Obama took office, the unemployment rate was 7.8%. Almost three and a half years later it’s 8.2%. Facts is facts.
The unemployment rate was rising when Obama took office, because of the policies of the previous administration. Because of the policies of the previous administration, it continued to rise until Obama’s policies took effect. Facts is facts.
When Obama took office, America was shedding jobs at almost 800,000 every month. Now, we’re creating jobs at between 100,000 and 250,000 every month, and we have nearly returned the number of employed to pre-crash levels. Facts is facts.
When Obama’s policies took effect in the spring of 2009, the unemployment rate was almost 10%. Now it’s 8.2% Facts is facts.
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#56 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
The unemployment rate was rising when Obama took office, because of the policies of the previous administration.
The second part of that statement is just not true either.
I realize the leftwing meme is to take everything that the Bush administration did, or any Republican policy of the past 30 years, and use that to blame anything bad that has happened to the economy. If Bush started taking 2 dumps a day instead 1 in 2006, the left would add that to list of causes of the recession and global warming and racism.
Feel free to write an article and provide hard evidence of how each Republican policy you cite led to the Great Recession. -
#57 written by Max 1 year ago
GROG,
You really did NOT want to go there, but since you did:
YOU are the one who fudged the numbers about Reagan and UE. So, comment #32,
The unemployment rate went from 9.7% in 1982 to 5.3% in 1989.
Reagan became president the end of January 1981. For February 1981 the UE was 7.4% and was essentially FLAT, having been in the mid-7’s since May of the previous year. The next several months the UE rate WENT DOWN to 7.2% in July 1981. It then started CLIMBING (The ERTA was passed in August), to a peak of 10.8% in December 1982, a year and a half later! It declined to 5.4% in January 1989, the month Reagan left office. BUT, 3 years and 1 month into Reagan’s 1st term, the UE rate was 7.8%, WORSE than it was his first full month in office!
The first full month of Obama’s term, February 2009 (keeping apples and apples), the UE rate was 8.3%. It peaked at 10.0%, almost a full point UNDER Reagan’s top rate, in October THE SAME YEAR, and has been declining since, to the current 8.2%, which in 3 years and 1 month into Obama’s term is LESS than it was in his first full month in office.
AND, instead of being relatively flat, as it was when Reagan took over from Carter, the UE rate was, and had been, climbing for almost a full year under Bush II, being at only 5.0% in April 2008 going up to the 7.8% in January 2009 and to the 8.3% the next month!
So you need to quit cherry-picking and use honest, comparable data. I don’t know where you got the “9.7% in 1982″ from. In fact, it was over a full percentage point WORSE than that!
Facts is facts.
And you STILL studiously ignore Reagan’s high rate, 10% over the thirty year average of spending as a per cent of GDP, of federal spending AND the historical peacetime record of deficit spending as contributing factor in the economic growth in the ’80’s! Half the truth isn’t the truth at all.Do you STILL wanna go there?
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#58 written by GROG 1 year ago
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#60 written by Max 1 year ago
GROG,
Thank you, sir. I appreciate the honesty.
Reagan policies shut down job creation
For the year and a half after the passage of the ERTA of 1981 the UE rate went UP from the 7.2% at the end of July, over three and a half points, to 10.8%!
Job creation DID NOT go nuts with the Reagan tax cuts, the OPPOSITE happened! Then, TEFRA was passed, RESCENDING large portions of the ERTA cuts, and signed in September 1982. TWO MONTHS LATER the UE rate peaked and started back downward.
Lets see:
Pass ERTA and cut taxes in Aug. ’89, UE rate goes UP (job losses)
Pass TEFRA and RAISE taxes in Sept. ’82, UE rate goes DOWN (job gains)You decide which had the effect on “job creation”.
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#61 written by Max 1 year ago
Let’s look at the Bush cuts:
EGTRRA (Bush I first round) was signed in June 2001. In May the UE had been 4.3%
JGTRR (Bush I second round) was signed in May 2003. In April the UE rate was 6.1%, almost 2% higher than before EGTRRA was passed.
Bush leaves office January 2009, the UE rate was 7.8%.
After the two Bush I tax cuts, the UE rate rose by the end of the Bush term by THREE AND A HALF percent MORE than it was the month before the first tax cut was passed!
Job losses, not job creation!
Facts is facts. -
#62 written by GROG 1 year ago
Max,
Job creation DID NOT go nuts with the Reagan tax cuts, the OPPOSITE happened! Then, TEFRA was passed, RESCENDING large portions of the ERTA cuts, and signed in September 1982. TWO MONTHS LATER the UE rate peaked and started back downward.
The same could be said of Obama’s stimulus. The average unemployment rate in 2010 was higher that in 2009.
Furthermore, under ERTA the bulk of the the tax cuts didn’t even take effect until 1983. And as I said before, even though Reagan raised taxes during his Presidency, he had significant net marginal tax cuts. Marginal rates were much lower throughout his term than when he took office. The top marginal rate was 69% when he took office. It was 28% when he left. You make it sound as if Reagan came into office and started raising taxes which resulted in job growth. That’s not the case.EGTRRA (Bush I first round) was signed in June 2001. In May the UE had been 4.3%
JGTRR (Bush I second round) was signed in May 2003. In April the UE rate was 6.1%, almost 2% higher than before EGTRRA was passed.Right, but Bush inherited a recession. It makes sense that unemployment would creep up. Then 9⁄11 happened which had further negative effects on the economy. By 2007 UE was back down to 4.7%. We all now what happened in 2008.
You’re falling into the same trap as DC. You want to ignore other complex factors that happen in a complex world economy and tie employment to tax cuts or increases. It’s not that simple.
Not to change the subject, but am I reading this correctly? Mitt over Obama 47% to 45%? If that’s the case, I’m shocked. Not being sarcastic. Romney has no chance, imo.
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#63 written by GROG 1 year ago
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You’re falling into the same trap as DC. You want to ignore other complex factors that happen in a complex world economy and tie employment to tax cuts or increases. It’s not that simple.
Grog, you’re actually making my point for me. Republicans insist that tax cuts for the immensely wealthy will create jobs. They even cherry-pick time windows and selected tax changes in order to “prove” their point — ignoring the other complex factors that happen in a complex economy, and instead try to tie employment to tax cuts or increases.
What we do know is that tax cuts for the immensely wealthy have no detectable influence in lowering unemployment, and may actually increase unemployment. We also know that Bush’s policies resulted in the worst recession in nearly a century. And we know that the Ryan / Romney plan is just more of the same — massive deficits and further tax cuts for people who don’t need them and won’t use them to stimulate the economy.
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#66 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
We also know that Bush’s policies resulted in the worst recession in nearly a century.
No, we don’t know that. We don’t know that at all.
I encourage to write that article outlining the specific policies and provide concrete evidence supporting how those policies led to the worst economy in nearly a century. Not just hollow claims, but hard evidence. -
#67 written by Max 1 year ago
GROG,
Right, but Bush inherited a recession. It makes sense that unemployment would creep up. Then 9⁄11 happened which had further negative effects on the economy. By 2007 UE was back down to 4.7%. We all know what happened in 2008.
OK. So lets compare.
GDP Quarterly Growth {UE rate}
2000 — 7.4 {4.0}, 1.1 {4.0}, 8.0 {3.9}, 0.3 {3.9}
2001 — 2.4 {4.3}(Bush sworn in), <1.3> {4.5}, 2.7 {5.0}, <1.1> {5.7}
2002 — 1.4 {5.7}, 4.5 {5.7}, 2.1 {5.8}, 2.0 {6.0}
Now Look at 2008 — 2010 period.
2008 — 1.7 {5.1} , <1.8> {5.6}, 1.3 {6.1}, <3.7> {7.3}
2009 — <8.9> {8.7}(Obama sworn in) ‚<6.7> {9.5} , <0.7> {9.8},1.7 {9.9}
2010 — 3.8 {9.8}, 3.9 {9.4} ‚3.8 {9.5} , 2.5 {9.4}
You REALLY want to compare magnitudes? You REALLY wann go there? -
#68 written by Max 1 year ago
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#69 written by Max 1 year ago
the worst economy in nearly a century. Not just hollow claims, but hard evidence.
OK. After 6 years of Bush II policies, the hard numbers:
2007;
GDP growth rate by quarter — 2.7, 0.5, 3.6, 3.0
UE rate last month of quarter — 4.4, 4.6, 4.7, 5.0 (+0.6)
2008;
GDP growth rate by quarter — 1.7, <1.8>, 1.3, <3.7>
UE rate last month of quarter — 5.1, , 5.6, 6.1, 7.3 (+2.2)
2009;
GDP 1st quarter — <8.9>
UE rate - (Jan) 7.8, (Feb) 8.3, (Mar) 8.7Hard numbers, hard evidence. Do the exercise and compare with the same periods with any other president in the past 100 years! (That’d be Wilson)
You asked for it, you got it!
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#71 written by GROG 1 year ago
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#72 written by GROG 1 year ago
Max,
Right! It’s only coincidence!
Good point. Just like the encouragement and promotion of subprime lending by many levels of the federal government, and the rise of subprime lending was only a coincidence. And the rise in subprime lending and the housing bubble was only a coincidence. And the bursting of the housing bubble and the economic downturn was only a coincidence. And the poor housing market and the painfully slow economic recovery is only a coincidence.
Hard numbers, hard evidence.
Hardly. You need to explain how those policies are responsible for the figures you cited. Back to the drawing board.
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Just like the encouragement and promotion of subprime lending by many levels of the federal government, and the rise of subprime lending was only a coincidence. And the rise in subprime lending and the housing bubble was only a coincidence. And the bursting of the housing bubble and the economic downturn was only a coincidence. And the poor housing market and the painfully slow economic recovery is only a coincidence.
No, those aren’t coincidences. The connecting tissue is deregulation.
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#75 written by Max 1 year ago
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#76 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
GROG said:
Just like the encouragement and promotion of subprime lending by many levels of the federal government, and the rise of subprime lending was only a coincidence.
DC responded:
No, those aren’t coincidences. The connecting tissue is deregulation.Are you saying that deregulation led to the encouragement and promotion of subprime lending by many levels of the federal government, which resulted in the rise of subprime lending?
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#77 written by GROG 1 year ago
Max,
I no more need to explain the “how”.….….
So, because things went bad starting with Bush’s last 2 years in office, you’re going to blame “Bush’s policies” without even referencing which policies or how each of those policies led the economic downturn?
You’re going to simplyconclude that because the economy went south under Bush that “Bush’s policies” are to blame? No explanations? No evidence? -
#78 written by GROG 1 year ago
Michael,
If, at the same gross income level, a marginal rate decrease results in an effective rate increase, would you call that a “tax cut”?
I would call that a tax increase. I’ve said here before that I think we should have a 20% flat tax. History tells us that no matter what what marginal rates are, effective rates remain around 18–20%.
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History tells us that no matter what what marginal rates are, effective rates remain around 18–20%.
But that’s in aggregate. You’ve never had everyone paying the same effective rate.
If you have two couples, one of them has five children, and the other has none, the average number of children per couple is 2.5. Yet neither family has half a child, and trying to divide up the children that way would (at best) leave you with four living children.
Claiming that the average effective rate has historically been 20% is not the same as saying that a flat tax of 20% wouldn’t be destructive in the extreme. It would be.
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GROG,
I would call that a tax increase.
I thought you might. Given that, what events during the Reagan years do you consider tax cuts?
History tells us that no matter what what marginal rates are, effective rates remain around 18–20%.
I’m afraid you need to examine history a bit more closely. The effective income tax rates (the topic of this article, you may recall) have been a mere 10–12%. And that rate dropped 29% during the Bush years, to a rate well below historical averages. So, no, history doesn’t tell us that at all.
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#81 written by GROG 1 year ago
Michael,
I’m afraid you need to examine history a bit more closely. The effective income tax rates (the topic of this article, you may recall) have been a mere 10–12%. And that rate dropped 29% during the Bush years, to a rate well below historical averages. So, no, history doesn’t tell us that at all.
History tells us that total federal effective federal tax rate for all households has varied between about 20–22% since 1979.
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#82 written by Max 1 year ago
GROG,
Guess it’s all just coincidence!
All the hard, empirical evidence from the Reagan 1980’s that also parallel the Bush II 2000’s. Even though you continue to ignore the effects of high federal spending and historically high deficit spending in the 1980’s and in the 2000’s!
It’s all just coincidence.
Perhaps you might offer proof otherwise? That the correlation does NOT exist? That the causation is unrelated to the results? -
GROG,
History tells us that total federal effective federal tax rate for all households has varied between about 20–22% since 1979.
Wrong again. From 1979 to 2000, it averaged 19.5%. From 2001 to 2006, it averaged 18.0%, a drop of 7.6%. Your 20–22% number includes corporate income taxes, which “households” do not pay.
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#86 written by Max 1 year ago
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Max,
To be clear, the economy probably wouldn’t have been as strong in the 1980s had taxes been high enough to cover the expenses of the time.The 1981 tax cuts reduced the effective federal income tax rate by about a percentage point, or about 8%. The Tax Reform Act, while it reduced the peak nominal rate, actually increased the effective rate on the top quintile of earners by about 5%.
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#88 written by Max 1 year ago
Michael,
To be clear …
Interesting conjecture. But actually has nothing to do with the point the evidence seems to bear out: that, in spite of the “deep rose colored lenses” through which today’s right wing views the Reagan administration, and specifically the 1981 ERTA, in fact, the recovery from the 1981–82 recession was heavily influence by the Keynesian actions of HIGHER government spending and high deficit spending.
Yea and verily, the economy cannot grow by tax cuts alone. -
#89 written by shortchain 1 year ago
Max,
The statement “the economy cannot grow by tax cuts alone” would be disputed. There seems to be an intuitive certainty underlying much of the “tax cuts are always the answer” mindset that the public-private economy is, after all, a zero-sum game. While there may be an intellectual agreement that it’s not, the actions and expressions of many indicate that the underlying belief is that every dollar taken by taxes is a dollar that will never see the light of a private enterprise sun again.
I often wonder what people think happens to money that the government takes in. Do they imagine it gets burnt somewhere in a secret facility in Maryland?
Of course, the likely objection is not to having the money taken, but to being given to someone else. That’s the real problem. It is a natural human attitude to inflate the dollars one has to pay in taxes and simultaneously to deflate the dollars one gets back. Also to inflate the dollars others get back while deflating the money they pay in. Which, of course, makes it a trivial political exercise to get tax cuts. To get tax increases, politicians need to target them toward those without political clout. In the current environment, that bodes very ill for the poor, whose political clout has been sliding for decades.
But the truth of the matter is that there are many ways to grow the economy, and one can, in fact, grow the economy by tax cuts alone, in the proper circumstances. The trick is to get the right mix of taxes and spending so as to optimize future economic growth. That cannot be done with tax cuts alone, as the private investment engine is too prone to create bubbles. And it cannot be done by government spending alone, because that, also, creates bubbles. (For an example, take a look at the agriculture business, specifically corn, in this country.) -
#90 written by Max 1 year ago
sc,
The statement “the economy cannot grow by tax cuts alone” would be disputed.
Dispute all they wish. As I demonstrated with the actual, indisputable, numbers from the ’80’s and the 2000’s, after the tax cuts of Reagan and Bush II, the FACTS are against their disputations. Increased federal spending, most, by far, deficit spending, more than offset the tax cuts. As those numbers show, the Keynesian actions of both Reagan and Bush II played AT LEAST a larger role, if not more so.
Facts is facts.
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About Michael Weiss (322 posts)
Michael is a jack of many trades, and master of a few. His varied background includes government and private businesses, both large and small. His experience in the financial services and computer industries has led him to computer security.








I really think this is a close relative of the “welfare queen” concept. There are always those (maybe in the plurality) that have the worldview that someone else is getting a free ride.
Of course, in my personal experience, every single person who complains of this is freeloading themselves, in some subtle (or not-so-subtle) way.
Interesting CNN article on the “Welfare Queen” meme is here:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/23/politics/weflare-queen/index.html