The Coming Choice
We will be treated this year to a stark contrast in visions for America. That contrast cannot be made clearer than by considering a pair of tax proposals before Congress this week.
Republicans in the Senate blocked consideration of a Democratic proposal known as the Buffett Rule, which would have codified a clearer progressive income tax, and would have resulted in an estimated $36.7 billion per year in additional federal revenue. (Correction: the estimated $35 — $47 billion is for a ten-year period.) Virtually simultaneously with that act, Republicans in the House announced a new tax cut proposal, which would increase the deficit by almost exactly the same amount as the Buffett Rule would have reduced it. (Correction: the Republican proposal would increase the deficit by about $40 billion in a single year.)
That’s right…after spending three years whining about the deficit, the Republican reject a bill that would have made at least a token move in the right direction, and recommend instead an increase in the deficit.
Why would they engage in such blatant self-contradiction? The reason is simple. The Buffett Rule would have raised taxes on wealthy people. The Republican proposal would lower taxes on wealthy people. It’s really that straightforward.
It’s been obvious for a while where the interests of the Republican Party truly lie. On October 20, 2000, while running for President, George W. Bush gave a speech at the annual Al Smith Dinner for charity. As part of his remarks, he said, “This is an impressive crowd — the haves and the have-mores. Some people call you the élite; I call you my base.” It was meant to be a joke, of course. But the callousness of the humor is part of a pattern.
While running for president in 2008, John McCain couldn’t recall how many houses he owns. Mitt Romney has made one such élitist gaffe after another. But it’s not just about the arrogant personal attitudes of Republican standard-bearers and their inability to connect to the average American. Those are just symptoms of a deeper problem. For many years, Republicans have been engaged in what can only be called all-out class warfare.
It isn’t exactly news that income disparity in America is nearing an all-time high, eerily similar to the disaster year of 1928. What is amazing, however, is the unbridled eagerness with which Republicans are seeking to increase that disparity.
Take this week as a case in point. The proposed Buffett Rule would have ensured that Americans with annual income over $1,000,000 would pay a minimum marginal tax rate of 30 percent. The competing Republican tax plan in the House, specifically proposed as an alternative, would give a one-year 20 percent tax reduction to “small businesses” with fewer than 500 employees. This includes most professional sports teams, thousands of millionaire stock traders, and Paris Hilton, all of whom are “small businesses.” In fact, roughly 49 percent of the proposed $35-billion-plus tax giveaway would go to millionaires.
It could be argued that, besides helping to enrich the wealthy, giving some of that money to actual “small businesses” would help create jobs. Republicans don’t have much credibility on that argument, after defeating nearly every aspect of the American Jobs Act. It would be possible to target actual small businesses for tax assistance — for example, by giving cuts to businesses with average salaries under $100,000 and total revenue under $10,000,000. The Republican plan doesn’t do that. It’s designed to provide a particular windfall to wealthy individuals who have incorporated, and to use “small business cuts” as a Trojan Horse in order to do it.
Republicans aren’t interested in creating jobs, or in improving the economy in any other way — at least, not before they make another round of electoral gains. We know this. John Boehner told us so.
In point of fact, simply reducing income taxes for small businesses tends to reduce investment. How can this be? Because income taxes are assessed after businesses expenses (including employee salaries) have been paid. Income taxes are assessed on money that isn’t reinvested in the business. By reducing corporate income taxes for small businesses, we encourage business owners to take money as profit rather than using it, for example, to hire more people. It discourages investment.
Is this what the Republicans wish to have happen, or is it a case of unintended consequences? There is a pattern of where wealth has been going for the last three or four decades, particularly over the last quarter century. Recent Republican proposals would increase the wealth gap even more.
The Ryan Tax Plan — the plan that Romney called “marvelous” — would eliminate the security of Medicare, slash Pell grants, maintain $40 billion in tax giveaways to oil companies, and give $3 trillion in additional tax cuts to the wealthy and to huge corporations. Would it at least balance the budget after all that? No, it wouldn’t:
The Tax Policy Center looked into the revenue loss associated with House Budget Chairman Paul Ryan’s plan to cut the tax code down to two rates of 10 percent and 25 percent. They estimate the changes would raise $31.1 trillion over 10 years, or 15.4 percent of GDP. That’s $10 trillion less than the tax code would raise if the Bush tax cuts were allowed to expire, and $4.6 trillion less than it would raise if all of the Bush tax cuts were extended.
It increases the gap between receipts and expenses by $4.6 trillion dollars more than keeping the disastrous Bush tax cuts in place.
If Republicans are uninterested in creating jobs, and don’t care about the deficit, what are they after?
It’s been mentioned several times already. They’re desperate to reduce taxes on the most wealthy, eager to eliminate our social contracts such as Medicare and Social Security, anxious to dismantle environmental protections, consumer protections, and assistance for college students. Romney wants to get rid of the Department of Housing and Urban Development. During the Republican presidential debates, the candidates tried to outbid each other in listing federal departments they would eliminate, from the EPA to the Department of Education.
House Republicans even want to cut food stamps for America’s most needy, in order to avoid the cuts they agreed to last year in the Pentagon’s budget — cuts that resulted from their refusal to pay for the spending they wanted.
Observe the pattern — cutting programs that benefit average Americans or the poor, while insisting on tax cuts that benefit the wealthy. Their programs and proposals would maintain immense deficits and use those deficits as an excuse to slash programs that help 90 percent of Americans, while yet again cutting taxes on the wealthy. All this, while the wealth and income gap soars to historic levels.
I’ve concentrated here on economic issues. But there are social issues involved as well, and the pattern continues, an élitist pattern of restricting the many while benefiting the few — restricting access to health care, restricting the right to vote, restricting the right to marry, restricting the right to collective bargaining.
There is class warfare going on in America. In November, we’ll be presented with a very clear choice. The good and hopeful thing about America is that We the People are self-governing. We do not have to surrender our rights and our wealth to a privileged few. We certainly can do that if we want to. But it’s within our power to reverse the trend.
(I thank our reader GROG for bringing to my attention the matters indicated above as “Corrections”.)
Related articles
- Despite GOP Claims, Buffett Rule Would Only Affect 1 Percent Of Small Businesses (thinkprogress.org)
- ‘Buffett Rule’ Fails Procedural Vote in Senate (newsy.com)
- The math and politics behind the Buffett Rule (blogs.ajc.com)
- Seven U.S. Zip Codes That Prove A Need For The Buffett Rule (thinkprogress.org)

This entry was posted by dcpetterson on April 18, 2012 at 3:00 am, and is filed under Uncategorized. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0.You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.
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rgbact –
Stock traders and oil speculators, of course. Which is why the markets are being manipulated as they are, and why we now have a Consumer Financial Protection Agency, and why the President is pushing for a crackdown on oil speculators. Republicans, of course, oppose these initiatives.
Thank you for helping me make my points!
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#3 written by Mainer 1 year ago
The only two quite wealthy people that I know seem at this point to only be able to shake their heads at Republican efforts. These two are progressive, not evangelical, are socially progressive (Universalists tend to be that way) and are fiscally conservative with out being dogmatic or ideological. Oh wait they are old line Republican, folks that think Ike got it right and that Nixon should have been more careful of who he brought into his inner circle.
Their take the last few days seems to be that if the Republicans do not show some actual fical leadership and damned soon is that this fall could be raather interesting. Even here in this state there is a battle over budget that now has Democrats and rational Republicans linning up against the teaper gov and more radical elements in the legislature. Hard to see how it will play out but smart money seems to be following the more rational politicians. It will be fun to see how it plays out. -
#4 written by curious jane 1 year ago
The Grover Nordquist oath, beyond their oath of office has made any compromise impossible. This is to the detriment of the deficit and the country particularly when it comes to paying for wars. The right has put the needs of their Nation behind their oath to a man. They made this oath on a Bible and claim to be worried about the Country. It is like Nordquist is their ruler.
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#5 written by rgbact 1 year ago
The Grover Nordquist oath, beyond their oath of office has made any compromise impossible
So, if some lefty outfit asked all Democrats running in 2012 to sign a pledge to say close Gitmo or to fight any changes in Social Security—you would be against people signing something like that?
I’d say going 3 years without producing a budget has greater impact on the lack of compromise than any pledge.
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So, if some lefty outfit asked all Democrats running in 2012 to sign a pledge to say close Gitmo or to fight any changes in Social Security—you would be against people signing something like that?
Yes. But also note that “closing Gitmo” affects one issue — closing Gitmo. “Raising taxes” affects everything the government does.
But yes, I’d oppose any attempt to make our elected officials answerable to an unelected lobbyist rather than to the Constitution.
I’d say going 3 years without producing a budget has greater impact on the lack of compromise than any pledge.
I wouldn’t. Whether or not there is a budget in place has nothing whatever to do with whether our elected servants can work together.
Being locked into an unconstitutional oath, however, does.
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#7 written by astrodude 1 year ago
rgb,
I would not be in favor of politicians on either side making pledges of this sort. So much of productive politics is the result of compromise, and if one or both sides is/are locked into positions it may make compromise impossible. In many, or even most, cases the perfect is the enemy of the good. -
#8 written by GROG 1 year ago
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#9 written by curious jane 1 year ago
$4.5 billion, even that would save a heck of a lot of pulic sector cuts including jobs. The no compromise is why there is no budget. No compromise is not governing it is pandering to Grover Nordquist for his support. That my friend is pro big money and not in the interest of the country.
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Grog,
Thanks for the correction. The figure I quoted was one estimate from one source, and was meant to be for a ten-year period. I improperly applied it to a single year.
The Republican plan would cost $46 billion for a single year, which means it is an annual deficit ten times as large as the benefit of the Buffett Rule. It not only is a deficit rather than a reduction of deficit, it is a deficit ten times larger.
I will correct the article later today.
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#11 written by curious jane 1 year ago
Excuse the typos, my Parkinsons is acting up. Thank God for “Obamacare” I can now afford a suplemental and not get it raised 100 dollars each year. I would be totally on public assistance if the donut hole wasn’t closing. Compromise please I was disabled at 50 and now with more cut, cut, cut Hud is in danger.
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#13 written by rgbact 1 year ago
The Republican plan would cost $46 billion for a single year, which means it is an annual deficit ten times as large as the benefit of the Buffett Rule
To be fair, the GOP plan sounds idiotic too. Sadly, its political gimmick season and both sides are breaking out their best vote buying ideas. Waiting for the Democrats to introduce their bill banning driving with your dog on your car. Call it Romney Rule Part 2. -
#14 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
The Buffett Rule would reduce the deficit by less than a half percent based on the 2012 budget deficit. It has nothing to do with revenue or budgets or deficits. Obama famously said “do the math”. The math is simple. We would have to collect revenue from the Buffett Rule for 250 years to pay Obama’s 2012 deficit.It could be argued that, besides helping to enrich the wealthy, giving some of that money to actual “small businesses” would help create jobs.
“Giving some” of $4.5 billion to small businesses would have zero impact on job creation. What are we going to do? Dole out $4 billion dollars between 28 million small businesses in the US? That would give them 135 bucks each.
The Buffet Rule is a farce. It has nothing to do with debt reduction or what’s best for the country. It’s about perceived “fairness”. It’s about re-election. It’s about the 99% vs. the 1%. It’s about “social justice”.
Let’s at least try to be honest here. -
#15 written by dawolf 1 year ago
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The Buffett Rule would reduce the deficit by less than a half percent based on the 2012 budget deficit.
And yet, Planned Parenthood costs about one tenth as much, and Republicans tell us it’s too expensive.
The point is, Republicans are all about protecting their cronies. It’s about protecting their wealth and power. It’s about shifting wealth from the nation into the hands of a few. It’s about establishing an oligarchy to rule over (actually, to prey upon) a nation of serfs.
“Giving some” of $4.5 billion to small businesses would have zero impact on job creation.
I was talking about the Republican proposal to increase the deficit by $47 billion.
The Buffet Rule is a farce.
You’re free to believe that. The real farce is the Republican propaganda that we can balance the budget by eliminating HUD and DOE while continuing to cut taxes for the immensely wealthy and while encouraging policies that put ever-more wealth into the hands of a dwindling few and that keep wages and hiring flat (at best) for decades at a time.
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#17 written by curious jane 1 year ago
The cuts in the Ryan budget guts the state and federal programs all at once. There has already been a severe decline in education and health services. These are jobs and lives of everyday people who worked hard all of their lives. Pensions and 401Ks were lost in the crash people who thought they were set lost everything and are forced on Hud support. Why protect the top quintile when the devastation will be unspeakable. Never have we paid for wars on the backs of seniors, the ill and disabled, children and education. I see this as imorality and anti Christian values. There are more warnings in the New Testament to the rich than anyother group. Why not have everyone contribute. Very few above 200,000 actually pay the percentile because of loop holes. Is Grover Nordquist the Republican God. No Compromise is anti democracy and not the will of We The People.
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#18 written by mclever 1 year ago
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#19 written by rgbact 1 year ago
As usual, Jon Stewart nails it:
Except he mentions mammograms (which Planned Parenthood doesn’t do) and not abortions (which they do more than anyone else).“There has already been a severe decline in education and health services.”
Eduction spending has more than tripled since Bush took office. We spend more on education (and health) than any other country. Lets admit, its never enough.
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#20 written by Max 1 year ago
rgbact,
Lets admit, its never enough.
Not true. The US leads EVERY other country in healthcare spending and RANKS as one of the LOWEST in several terms. We spend $8000/year/person when the average for the next 15 industrialized countries spend less than $5000/year/person.
We do NOT spend our H/C money wisely and over 20% goes to the insurance industry that provides NOT ONE SINGLE medical service.
Sometimes LESS is MORE!
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rgbact says Planned Parenthood doesn’t do mammograms.
Yet, as I explained (with citations) back in February, they do.
http://www.logarchism.com/2012/02/04/smoke-screen/
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rgbact,
if some lefty outfit asked all Democrats running in 2012 to sign a pledge to say close Gitmo or to fight any changes in Social Security—you would be against people signing something like that
Absolutely. I hate the whole pledge thing, regardless of political affiliation. Principles are one thing, but laws are made through compromise. Pledges preclude legislation, by precluding compromise.
I’d say going 3 years without producing a budget has greater impact on the lack of compromise than any pledge.
I’d say the pledges have an impact on the three years with no budget.
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GROG,
The Buffet Rule is a farce. It has nothing to do with debt reduction or what’s best for the country. It’s about perceived “fairness”.
It’s definitely about perceived fairness, but that hardly makes it a farce. And it moves the needle in the right direction with respect to debt reduction. Sure, I’d like to see more on the revenue side (e.g., allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire), and an honest discussion about healthcare expenses, since that’s where the government spending problem lies.
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#24 written by rgbact 1 year ago
I’m still confused by this Buffett tax. Is it a 30% marginal rate for millionares, or 30% effective rate? The way its worded to me implies the latter. If so, I’m surprised that the revenue estimates are so low. It appears we collect about $130B in cap gains tax annually. If even 25% of that is from millionaires, then when you effectively double the cap gain tax, that should be about $30B in revenue.
Anyways, if Obama can agree to entitlement reform—I’d be fine with the Buffett tax, with some slight modifications.
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rgbact,
Is it a 30% marginal rate for millionares, or 30% effective rate?
30% effective rate for people earning over $2M. Between $1M and $2M is a transitional rate, which would reach 30% at $2M.
If so, I’m surprised that the revenue estimates are so low.
I suspect it’s because a huge percentage of our cap gains come from people earning less than $2M. But I haven’t tried to run the numbers myself.
if Obama can agree to entitlement reform…
What sort of “entitlement reform” do you have in mind?
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#26 written by rgbact 1 year ago
30% effective rate for people earning over $2M. Between $1M and $2M is a transitional rate, which would reach 30% at $2M.
Hmm,that means the rate is 45% on income between $1M and $2M. Not sure if that would create some weird incentives.
I suspect it’s because a huge percentage of our cap gains come from people earning less than $2M.
Thats a bit surprising to me.
What sort of “entitlement reform” do you have in mind?
Whatever great reform he was supposedly for back during the debt crises negotiations with Boehner. -
rgbact,
Hmm,that means the rate is 45% on income between $1M and $2M.
Not exactly. It depends on what the effective rate had been prior to the new minimum effective rate.
I suspect it’s because a huge percentage of our cap gains come from people earning less than $2M.
Thats a bit surprising to me.
Why? There are an awful lot of people in the 100k-1M range who have significant cap gains.
What sort of “entitlement reform” do you have in mind?
Whatever great reform he was supposedly for back during the debt crises negotiations with Boehner.
How about what you’d like to see?
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#28 written by rgbact 1 year ago
How about what you’d like to see?
Anything that lowers HC costs really. They could even just take pieces of the Ryan plan or repeal costly parts of Obamacare—as its best to work off ideas that are already developed. My personal preference is increase the age for Medicare and then a major boost in the premium for fee for service Medicare so that everyone but really well off people is steered into Medicare HMO’s.
Not sure how these issues can be negotiated. The 2 sides seem happy to talk past eachother. You would think Obama at least would see that Obamacare is generally unpopular and the Buffett tax is popular.…so why not negotiate away part of the unpopular thing for the popular one. But, he rammed thru Obamacare and has no interest in changing course.
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#29 written by Max 1 year ago
rgbact,
Anything that lowers HC costs really.
No need to reinvent the wheel. The answer is just across our northern border.Adopt the Canadian “system”.
While it may not be perfect, it works well, it reduces H/C costs by about ONE-THIRD, and I can guarantee without a shadow of doubt the number of Canadians that would be willing to swap their system for what we have in the US is exceedingly small. Over 80% prefer it over the US system. We can afterwards refine as needed to reduce costs.
Customer satisfaction tells a lot! In spite of what the US Health Insurance Lobby propaganda machine tries to portray.
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rgbact says,
it[‘]s best to work off ideas that are already developed
Indeed. Let’s look at some data, shall we?
Max says,
The answer is just across our northern border.
Actually, the answer is in every other industrialized country on Earth.
http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/oecd042111.cfm
As they say on Sesame Street, which one of these things is not like the others?
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#31 written by rgbact 1 year ago
Actually, the answer is in every other industrialized country on Earth.
Fine, but you’ll have to offer far more detail on the required changes. Just mindlessly proclaiming “Canada good, US bad” is not going to sell Americans on making these changes and implies little understanding of the actual details behind the Canadian system or any other one besides “they have more gubmint control”. You do realize the government already runs 2 massive HC programs that are going bust?
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#32 written by Max 1 year ago
Mono,
And the insurance companies need not go completely away. In Canada, prescription drugs, dental and vision are not covered under the national plan and insurance is available for those services.
That modification to Medicare, then extending Medicare to all American citizens would be all that’s necessary. The adjustments to the the Medicare tax would be made by employers and individuals dropping their insurance premiums and increasing the tax, by some SMALLER amount, on employers and individuals.
Future adjustments could include an eventual transfer AWAY from employers by some method, possibly the VAT style used in Canada. This would fulfill that GOP wet dream of DEtaxing employers, making them MORE competitive globally. -
#33 written by Max 1 year ago
rgbact,
Do a little research on your own. See how the Canadian plan ACTUALLY works. See how service providers are paid. See how the plan is implemented in the various provinces. (Hint: It’s not the same, nationwide.)
See how it is financed.
Research a number of polls that look at Canadian preferences for their system versus the US. I talk to a LOT of winter Texans here every winter, and they have a firsthand look at BOTH systems, and the NEXT Canadian that tells me that the would rather have OUR system WILL BE THE FIRST!!!
By doing that yourself, you won’t have to take our word for it, or think us to be cherry-picking, you will KNOW !!!!!Just GOOGLE it.
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#34 written by rgbact 1 year ago
“and the NEXT Canadian that tells me that the would rather have OUR system WILL BE THE FIRST!!!”
Posted just yesterday on a politcal forum I frequent (non righty) by some dude in a thread about Canada.
“I’ve had both. I prefer the U.S. without a doubt. In fact, I used to work in the U.S. while living in Canada (commuting across the border). I purchased my employer’s benefits because of no wait times”
So.…there’s #1 for ya.
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#36 written by Max 1 year ago
rgbact,
Since that is not a 1st person account for either of us, it doesn’t count.
I know that, according to polls, something on the close order of 10% of Canadians would rather have the US system. So I know they are out there. I just have not met any of the 10% yet.
Also, polls of both Americans and Canadians show the satisfaction/dissatisfaction of health services to be very close to the same. Hey, some people are going to complain if you hang them with a brand new rope! (including me!) But the fact that those numbers are so close to one another, in spite of the significant cost savings for the Canadian system (again, on the close order of a third less than in the US) demonstrate that it certainly seems to be the better path. -
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#39 written by Max 1 year ago
dc,
I actually give rgbact more credit than that.
In fact, for him to do so, with an adversarial eye, and put up the raw numbers he finds, by then comparing, we can then agree to disagree if there is then a subjective disagreement.
This is why I keep asking our resident conservatives to do the research and post the raw numbers. If we feel the adversarial system is the best way to operate our courts to find the facts of a matter at issue, why not here as well. We don’t always agree with the jury’s decisions either. C’est la vie.
Beats talking points. -
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Incidentally, if we spent the same amount on healthcare as Canada does (per capita), we’d cut our national healthcare expenses by 46%.
I don’t want to overstate the importance of that number, though. I can’t tell whether healthcare expenses are higher or lower on a per-capita basis for someone on Medicaid, compared to an equivalent person on a private health insurance plan.
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#43 written by GROG 1 year ago
It’s definitely about perceived fairness, but that hardly makes it a farce.
The purpose of taxation is to raise revenue in order to fund government. That is not the purpose of the Buffett Rule. The purpose of the Buffett Rule is to create division and class warfare. It’s a campaign tool. It’s a farce. It’s what his campaign will be built on. Class envy.
The rich wouldn’t have paid appreciably more in taxes. Their secretaries wouldn’t have paid any less. But it would have made the secretaries feel better. I can’t blame Obama. He has nothing else to run on. -
On the same day, the Boehner– led House passes the ridiculous tax cut I described above, and Boehner himself asks the President to “stop the gimmicks” and “work with Republicans” to “create jobs and address high gas prices.”
The same party that keeps whining about the deficit has just passed a tax cut that will increase the deficit by around $45 billion — as a political gimmick.
I honestly feel sorry for Republican voters. You’ve been duped and misused. The people you support, your elected representatives, do not believe a word of their own rhetoric. You may want to balance the budget. They clearly don’t give a damn. They are manipulative opportunistic liars, nothing more. And they prove it every day.
From now on, any time Republican politicians say a word about the deficit, start screaming “LIAR!” at the top of your lungs, and do not stop until the slink off the stage.
It’s embarrassing that anyone is ever tricked into voting for these dishonest bozi.
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#45 written by Max 1 year ago
GROG,
The purpose of taxation is to raise revenue in order to fund government.
Yep.
It’s a campaign tool. It’s a farce. It’s what his campaign will be built on. Class envy.
Yep. Exactly what Reagan did in the ’80’s. Cut taxes for the wealthy but reducing the top marginal rates. Meanwhile, he raised the bottom rate from 11% to 15%. He DID let the cap gains rate rise to the regular rate. But the overall result was that, to maintain the economic engine, he indulged in the Keynesian activity of increased government spending and deficit spending such that he trebled the national debt in only 8 years. And did so without the Keynesian requirement of a bad economy or war.
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#46 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
The same party that keeps whining about the deficit has just passed a tax cut that will increase the deficit by around $45 billion — as a political gimmick.
You’ve been duped and misused. A tax cut of X does not translate into a deficit increase of X.
In point of fact, simply reducing income taxes for small businesses tends to reduce investment. How can this be? Because income taxes are assessed after businesses expenses (including employee salaries) have been paid. Income taxes are assessed on money that isn’t reinvested in the business. By reducing corporate income taxes for small businesses, we encourage business owners to take money as profit rather than using it, for example, to hire more people. It discourages investment.
That’s one of the most absurd comments I’ve ever heard. You’re claiming the only reason a business would invest money is to avoid paying taxes. Bad business owners may do that, but not good ones.
I don’t know if you’ve ever owned a business or not, but successful business owners invest in their companies because they think it will make them more money. Period. They don’t say “I’m discouraged from investing my profits and making my company grow because I have low tax rates”. That’s absurd.
The truth, of course, is that high tax rates discourages investment. You’ve been duped and misused.
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#47 written by rgbact 1 year ago
rgbact won’t look into the Canadian system.
I have somewhat. But since you’re the one trying to sell it, I suggest you get beyond your “socialism good, wild west capitalism bad” talking points if you want to convince the American voter (or me). Clearly, the sales job your side did on Obamacare wasn’t very good as it keeps getting more unpopular the more people learn, so the talking points/sob stories aren’t working. -
#48 written by rgbact 1 year ago
I just have not met any of the 10% yet.
Evidently, all you talk to is young uninsured people and noone eligible for Medicare or Medicaid or veterans. Thats surprising, given seniors alone are about 15% of the population in both the US and Canada. I mean if you’re talking to someone over 64, they should be saying they love the US system, correct? -
#49 written by Max 1 year ago
rgbact,
Dude. Think about it: South Texas. Winter Texans.
Most ALL the folks I talk to are older, retired adults. Occasionally I speak to their adult children when those are here visiting the parents. Reasonably well-off enough that they come down and spend 3–5 months here. Many are from Manitoba, a number from Alberta and a few from Ontario. Only a couple from Saskatchewan. The next one to tell me they’d trade will be the first one.
And this is not a brand new phenomena. I had Canadians say the same thing 20 years ago during the argument over “Hilliarycare”.And BTW, there are NO “young, uninsured” Canadians. Their Medicare system covers ALL. I’m speaking of what Canadians, who have full knowledge of their system (called “Medicare”) who also spend a great deal of time here in the US, so they are also very familiar with our system.
Not trying to sell you anything. Just letting the numbers speak for themselves. And what IS “Obamacare” is NOT the Canadian system. But it IS the centerpiece of the term of governor of the candidate who WILL BE running against the President this year.
I have somewhat.
So, if you “have somewhat”, please tell us what YOU found to be the per capita difference between healthcare costs in the US and Canada, what the percentage of Canadians in the poll YOU read said they would swap, what the ‘life expectancy at birth” is in both countries, what the infant mortality rate is in both countries, and maybe a couple more comparisons?
This is where I was talking about just the facts, not political games by either side.
You are welcome to post up the facts, as you researched them, to place them side by side with what I put up.
You are the one that posed the question:
#28
written by rgbact 14 HOURS AGOHow about what you’d like to see?
Anything that lowers HC costs really.I’ve given you an answer to that appeal. You poke fun at it, but you don’t deny the facts of the matter.
So, do you really want to take a look at alternatives that can lower the healthcare costs in the US? Or are you afraid that of you get past the health insurance propaganda you’ll find the right wing’s talking points to have been a LIE?
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#50 written by GROG 1 year ago
Max,
Yep. Exactly what Reagan did in the ’80’s.
In 2008, Obama won the election because he won blacks, Latinos, and young people on a message of Hope and Change, and optimism, and national unity.
In 2012, he’s abandonded the Hope and Change message. He’s gambling on a message of divisiveness, animosity, class warfare, and victimization. We’ll see how it works out for him. -
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#52 written by Max 1 year ago
GROG,
You quote me about Reagan, then you go off about Obama. Huh?
But I note that you STILL, after several times I have put up the facts, and numerous opportunities, to speak directly to the FACT of what you quoted! And the only reason, that I see, that you haven’t is that you will have to admit it to be the truth and the Reagan “myth” be shown to be just that!
Unless you can show that I was inaccurate on ANYTHING that I said about Reagan’s spending policies. -
#53 written by rgbact 1 year ago
Most ALL the folks I talk to are older, retired adults.
Thats what I suspected. So, you’re telling me these retired Canadians (presumably mostly over 65) prefer Canada’s system over Medicare? Are they even aware that we have a govt system for seniors and US seniors aren’t in some evil free market system?
And BTW, there are NO “young, uninsured” Canadians.
True. I just meant that that given that fact, I would expect they would be the Canadians mostly likely to prefer the Canadian alternative–not seniors who would have guaranteed govt coverage in either country.
You are welcome to post up the facts, as you researched them, to place them side by side with what I put up.
Maybe I’ll post an article at some point with details as I grow tired of the lefties gloating about a system they know little about. -
GROG,
The purpose of taxation is to raise revenue in order to fund government.
Indeed.
That is not the purpose of the Buffett Rule.
No, it’s not.
The purpose of the Buffett Rule is to create division and class warfare.
No, it’s not. The purpose is to correct for an existing tax structure that results in a regressive tax curve at the top of the scale. The division and class warfare has been going on for years. That class warfare is why the existing tax structure results in a regressive tax curve at the top of the scale.
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rgbact,
I suggest you get beyond your “socialism good, wild west capitalism bad” talking points if you want to convince the American voter (or me). Clearly, the sales job your side did on Obamacare wasn’t very good
Tea Party talking points aside, the ACA has almost nothing in common with socialism. The claim might have a little merit if the only source of health insurance were supplied by the government. But most people won’t even have the option of government-run health insurance, let alone a mandate of one.
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GROG,
You’re claiming the only reason a business would invest money is to avoid paying taxes.
That’s not his claim. Look at what people do with capital gains. The fact that one owes capital gains at the time of equity sale creates a disincentive to sell. It doesn’t mean that people will never sell, or that the only reason they won’t sell is to avoid the taxes. All it means is that there is fiscal pressure to hold onto the equity. The higher the tax, the greater the pressure to hold.
Similarly, a business owner owes taxes on the business profits at the time of transfer to the owner’s personal account. This creates the same fiscal pressure to keep the capital in the business. The higher the personal income tax, the greater the pressure to keep the capital in the business. In that regard, it is a similar sort of incentive that people have to put money into IRAs.
If the money is in the business, the business has numerous options. The money could merely go into a savings account. Or it can be used to grow the business. Or any number of other possibilities. But, by virtue of the money being in the business, there’s a greater likelihood of using it to grow the business. It’s not a sure thing, but if it’s a business with headroom, a bad business owner would stick it in a mattress. Or transfer it to the personal account. A good business owner would invest it in growing the business.
Since the personal income tax shifts the opportunity cost equation in the direction of business expansion investment, an increase in the personal income tax for those business owners will necessarily translate to more business growth.
That’s the claim he was making. I know this because we’ve already had this discussion in the past.
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#58 written by GROG 1 year ago
Michael,
Of course it does, ceteris paribus.
Of course, ceteris paribus. But when taxes are cut, economic activity and behavior changes. That’s why a tax cut of X does not result in an increased deficit of X.
That’s the claim he (DC) was making. I know this because we’ve already had this discussion in the past.
The claim DC was making was that business tax cuts discourages investment. I would be interested in seeing a peer reviewed, economic study confirming that claim.
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#59 written by Max 1 year ago
rgbact,
You do understand that you are running off on a tangent; that you are repeatedly refusing to work with facts that you researched and compared with those I put up. You are playing political games instead of actually dealing with facts.
But just for clarification, I will play your game this one last time, and until you actually demonstrate WITH evidence that you “have somewhat” looked at the issue and have data to show you have.
“Medicare” is the name for the Canadian system, as well as the name of the program we have here in the US, primarily for seniors.
Yes, they are aware of our “Medicare”. They do wonder out loud why we don’t extend it to all our citizens.
None of them are “eligible for Medicare or Medicaid” (in the US) as they are not US citizens.The US “Medicare” program is not the subject of this discussion and I will not debate it now.
No, our “Medicare” does not cover all Americans. Because of that, it is not the US system. Since it is not, there is no comparison between Canada and the US, thus it is not the subject of this discussion.
No, that is NOT what you said and it appears you are trying to cover for a misstatement or an ignorant rant. In #48, you said:Evidently, all you talk to is young uninsured people and noone eligible for Medicare or Medicaid or veterans. Thats surprising, given seniors alone are about 15% of the population in both the US and Canada. I mean if you’re talking to someone over 64, they should be saying they love the US system, correct?
and in #53, you said:
Most ALL the folks I talk to are older, retired adults.
Thats what I suspected. So, you’re telling me these retired Canadians (presumably mostly over 65) prefer Canada’s system over Medicare? Are they even aware that we have a govt system for seniors and US seniors aren’t in some evil free market system?
And BTW, there are NO “young, uninsured” Canadians.
True. I just meant that that given that fact, I would expect they would be the Canadians mostly likely to prefer the Canadian alternative–not seniors who would have guaranteed govt coverage in either country.
which are, frankly, opposite statements. It appears that you are not being honest and that maybe dc is correct in his assessment.(BTW, the bulk of the cost of the Canadian system is paid for by what many folks here in the States call the “Fair Tax”, essentially a VAT style tax. And your “expectation” about young people is the OPPOSITE of the argument here, which is that they will be forced to pay for something they feel they are not using, since they are young and healthy compred to seniors!
Finally you say that someday “Maybe I’ll post an article at some point with details as I grow tired of the lefties gloating about a system they know little about.”. Nothing is holding you back except your own laziness and/or dishonesty, or maybe fear of what the facts will tell you that you then cannot deny. I’ll say again, YOU asked for a possible way to lessen healthcare costs. I gave you an example. YOU have responded with nothing but diversion and snark. If you DID stick with factual data, you might avoid these inconsistent and contradictory statements you’ve just made.
Your serve. Try to keep it out of the net.
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So, you’re telling me these retired Canadians (presumably mostly over 65) prefer Canada’s system over Medicare? Are they even aware that we have a govt system for seniors and US seniors aren’t in some evil free market system?
So Canada’s system is not only better than American for-profit insurance, it’s even better than Medicare as well.
It really sounds like we should be doing what Canada does.
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#61 written by shortchain 1 year ago
GROG,
So you want other people to produce “peer reviewed” studies supporting their assertions, but you are to skate free on the “tax cuts increase revenue” claim? You do know, of course, that that claim has been subjected to economic analysis and, contrary to the cherry-picking you continually engage in regarding the years of 2001 et cetera, repeatedly found to be at best questionable? (Some studies may show a temporary bump in revenues, but in general tax cuts today will have to be paid for by future tax increases.)
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#62 written by Max 1 year ago
GROG,
The claim DC was making was that business tax cuts discourages investment. I would be interested in seeing a peer reviewed, economic study confirming that claim.
And I would be interested in hearing GROG simply state that Reagan’s increased federal spending, 10%% ABOVE the 30 year average, and deficit spending that TREBLED the national debt during his term, had nothing to do with the economic growth of the time. Or even that it had LESS to do than the did the 1981 ERTA.
And then produce peer reviewed studies that bear out his statement.
Facts is facts.
And fair is fair. -
#63 written by rgbact 1 year ago
Your serve. Try to keep it out of the net.
Well, I tried. Even DC seems to understand my point. DC confirms that most likely your friends actually think Canadian Medicare is better than US Medicare. That is puzzling to me, as I would think the programs are very similar. So my next question would be why is US Medicare so inferior to Canadian Medicare? And maybe if people want the Canadian system a decent approach would be to first see if we can get our current Medicare to be as good as theirs. Cuz if we can’t even do that, its highly unlikely we’ll be able to change our entire system over to theirs.
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#64 written by Max 1 year ago
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rgbact,
OF COURSE Canadian Medicare will be better than US Medicare. Since Canadians have EVERYONE on their medicare system (even healthy young people) which spreads the cost more and increases the opportunities for expanded coverage of additional procedures.
This is why we have to move ALL Americans onto Medicare.
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Grog,
I have owned a small business. I deal with a lot of small business owners. When the top marginal income tax rates (either personal or corporate) are too low, there is additional incentive to take money out of the business and enjoy it as profit. By reducing the tax rates, you are reducing the incentive to reinvest the money in the business, and spend it on (for example) salaries of employees (either new hires or wage increases).
This is one of the many reasons why hiring and wages were essentially flat during the Bush years. Tax rates are far too low. It is one of the many reasons we had a big boom in the 60s and 70s and even the 80s. Tax rates were higher.
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#67 written by mclever 1 year ago
@rgbact
I sincerely doubt you’ll ever see a “peer reviewed published” study showing that higher tax rates incent businesses to reinvest rather than take profits. Not because it’s right or wrong, but because the analysis isn’t that hard or complicated. Academic journals usually won’t publish something that straightforward. The question can be answered with a few simple regression tests, which I’m sure Michael could whip up for us.
And, in fact, Michael has already shown once before that raising the marginal tax rates on Q5 income levels actually increases job growth, which some of us speculated then was because of the business reinvestment incentive. -
#68 written by GROG 1 year ago
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#69 written by rgbact 1 year ago
OF COURSE Canadian Medicare will be better than US Medicare. Since Canadians have EVERYONE on their medicare system (even healthy young people) which spreads the cost more and increases the opportunities for expanded coverage of additional procedures.
Not buying it.…but at least you’re trying. If 15% of the US is seniors, that means about 45M people on US Medicare. That is more people than live in Canada. -
#70 written by shortchain 1 year ago
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And rgbact, America has higher health care costs overall because so many of our non-seniors are not on Medicare. That raises costs for everyone.
There are other differences between the US system and the Canadian system(s). In general, moving in their direction would increase quality and decrease costs.
You say,
maybe if people want the Canadian system a decent approach would be to first see if we can get our current Medicare to be as good as theirs. Cuz if we can’t even do that, its highly unlikely we’ll be able to change our entire system over to theirs.
… yet moving our system to be more like theirs is one way to do what you’re asking — that is, if you want to improve our system, a very good way to do that is to make it more like theirs. But you don’t want to do that until we improve.
You’re arguing in a circle. You’re saying their system is better than ours, but we shouldn’t make our system like theirs until we make ours better. So we can’t make ours better until we make ours better, and we can’t do that because it would be making ours more like one that’s better than ours.
You stopped making sense a while back.
By the way, this is the opposite of the argument rightists made in 2009, when they insisted the Canadian system is worse than ours. Make up your minds. Should we not go Canadian because it’s worse, or because it’s better?
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Not buying it.…but at least you’re trying. If 15% of the US is seniors, that means about 45M people on US Medicare. That is more people than live in Canada.
You missed the most important part of my argument. Try reading comment #65 again and see if you catch it. It’s not about sheer numbers.
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#73 written by Max 1 year ago
rgbact,
Not buying it.…but at least you’re trying.
At least you are still avoiding actually dealing with facts directly affecting the discussion.
But since you are still playing with tangents:
US Medicare delivers a LOWER, by far, administrative cost for payments to service providers than the US health insurance industry.US Medicare is vastly different from the Canadian system because among numerous other things, the Canadian system does not set payment rates as US Medicare does.In Canada, government negotiates fee schedules with Medical Associations, and annual budgets with hospitals. “Colleges of Physicians and Surgeons” establish practice guidelines for doctors who practice independently under College supervision. Government does not pre-approve services or otherwise get involved in the doctor-patient relationship, as do private for-profit insurers in US. And Canadians CAN buy private health insurance, but doctors and hospitals in Canada must choose to be EITHER in the public payment system OR accept private payment, but NOT both. Most, by far, choose the public system.
As I have repeatedly said, don’t take my word for it, look it up for yourself. And let us know if I have not been factual.
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GROG,
But when taxes are cut, economic activity and behavior changes. That’s why a tax cut of X does not result in an increased deficit of X.
Your use of “X” for both sides of the equation led me to believe that you were using the same number in both cases. For that reason, I presumed that (since the “increased deficit of X” was clearly a dollar amount) the “tax cut of X” referred to a dollar amount, not a rate change.
The claim DC was making was that business tax cuts discourages investment.
Ahh, so he was. Turns out, the argument is fairly similar, though.
Since the tax is levied on profits after expenses and investments, a lower tax rate reduces the pressure to invest. That is, it reduces the marginal cost of not investing in business growth. The math on this is pretty simple and straightforward.
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#75 written by GROG 1 year ago
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#76 written by rgbact 1 year ago
Make up your minds. Should we not go Canadian because it’s worse, or because it’s better?
I’m not claiming anything, since I don’t visit Canada much so can’t really opine. But if a bunch of seniors from Canada say their Medicare is much better than our Medicare, I’m inclined to think that we should first work on fixing Medicare.…not work on expanding Medicare.
the Canadian system does not set payment rates as US Medicare does
Now we’re getting somewhere–how Canada pays doctors vs the US. Kudos for some actual details. -
The difference between a “business tax cut” and a “personal tax cut” is blurred when you’re talking about “small businesses” as defined by the latest Republican farce. Most businesses with under 500 employees are privately owned, and most are owned by one or two people. This means the “business profit” is almost identical, in a practical sense, to personal income (for tax purposes it’s treated differently, but the same individual gets control of the money either way).
So the disincentive to invest that is caused by lowering business tax rate is virtually identical to the disincentive to invest that is caused by lowering the personal tax rate, when we’re talking about businesses of this size. Either way, usually one or two individuals must choose between putting money in their own pockets, or putting it into the business. If this year it costs less to put it into their pockets than it did last year, then there’s a good reason to take that money out of the business rather than to pay it to someone else in salary.
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#78 written by mclever 1 year ago
@GROG
Can I supply a quote from an economist stating that low taxes discourages investment? Not in those precise words, but I can point you to the cost/benefit analysis formulas in various economics textbooks that can show why a businessman might alter investment behavior based on tax rates. If you were to plug in various values, you would find that there are equilibrium/inflection points where raising taxes increases investment, because there’s a higher potential benefit for the cost of reinvesting vs. the known benefit of taking the money now as profits for the cost of taxes. Likewise there’s a point (at a personal income tax rate of ~50%) where the cost/benefit turns back the other way.
What you’re asking for is akin to asking us to cite a physicist that says mass and energy are correlated just for a specific range of mass and acceleration. -
GROG,
Is it a fairly mainstream belief that low taxes on business discourages investment?
Yes. That said, you’ll often hear comparisons to other countries as well, which is a valid concern with larger businesses. Low rates in other countries tends to encourage larger American businesses to funnel money through shell corporations in those countries as a means of tax avoidance. But that’s not worthwhile for small businesses, because the tax savings doesn’t outweigh the cost of implementation. That’s because the implementation cost is pretty much flat.
Most of what you hear about corporate tax rates being to high, then, applies to the large corporations. The small businesses are different.
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Oh and by the way, regardless of whether a tax cut disincentivizes investment, it does NOT spur a business to invest more. The costs of growing the business (buying equipment, hiring people, etc.) are figured before income taxes, regardless of what the tax rate is. It costs the same, regardless of the tax rate on after-expense profits.
This means, first: telling an individual or a business that the money they don’t invest will be taxed at a lower rate, isn’t going to cause them to invest more.
Secondly, it means that the costs of expanding are the same either way. Taxing profits less does not allow the small business owner to purchase a new laptop at a lower price, or to pay more people, or to raise anyone’s salary. Taxing “small business” profits less does nothing to create jobs.
It’s very simple. Allowing “small business” owners to to pay less in taxes for the money they take out of their businesses does not encourage them to put more money into their businesses. Why is this hard to understand?
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#81 written by curious jane 1 year ago
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#82 written by GROG 1 year ago
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#84 written by Max 1 year ago
rgbact,
Please stop trying to restate the discussion into something it never was. And DON’T try to put words into my mouth. I find it offensive and it’s asinine on the part of someone so doing.
I NEVER SAID that “bunch of seniors from Canada say their Medicare is much better than our Medicare,”. THAT’S your imagination working. Or else it’s a dishonest restatement for some reason on your part. Or else you are playing a silly game. I defy you to provide the quote of me making that statement.For your edification: I said that “Canadians prefer their system over the US system”” by a large margin. Exceeding 80%, with some polls showing over 90%.
Canadians call their system “Medicare”. It covers EVERYONE. Each province administers the system within it’s borders. And each province determines how it is paid for, with some using a VAT style tax, some have citizens pay “premiums”.
It is NOT like our Medicare program. I have been quite clear on this.
Any confusion you have over my statement is your own fault. -
Here’s an article explaining why lowering tax rates doesn’t create more investment. His position is a little different from mine — he says that tax rates have no effect whatever on entrepreneurs. But it certainly is closer to mine than to the farcical buzzwords of the Teaper Right.
Here is a very balanced article. It does discuss the theoretical effect that Lafferites push, that lowering taxes spurs investment. But it also reveals “.. John Berry points out in a 2011 article for “The Fiscal Times,” lower tax rates can and do lead to substantial job losses in the public sector.”
Grog, you’re free to also use The Google. Proving that an incentive to take money out of a business does not encourage people to put money into a business should be self-evident, but if you want a reason to think that 2+2=4, go for it.
I admit, you’ll find a swarm of right-wing nonsense articles claiming black is white, but what is The Interweb for, if not to create fantasy?
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The discussion of whether income tax cuts disincentivize small business investment must remain primarily theoretical. As said here,
In spite of the recognized importance of small business, relatively little research has addressed how small and large businesses react to changes in income tax regulations…
So, Grog, consider the logic rather than ask for An Authority. Math works regardless of who says it does (or doesn’t).
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#87 written by Max 1 year ago
dc,
Funny, ain’t it. GROG and rgbact both don’t seem ever able to do simple research.
Either to prove their own points, or to actually disprove the point they speak against! Meanwhile, or so it seems, “lefties” are pretty quick to put up citations for how they formed their opinion.
Wonder if there is a correlation between the general anti-science stance of those on the right, and this unwillingness to USE science to get outside the talking point/RW meme position and actually PROVE something? -
#88 written by GROG 1 year ago
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#89 written by GROG 1 year ago
Wonder if there is a correlation between the general anti-science stance of those on the right, and this unwillingness to USE science to get outside the talking point/RW meme position and actually PROVE something?
That’s some comment considering the fact that your friends, DC and Michael, have made claims that lower tax rates for businesses discourages investment but have been unable after several hours to produce anything supporting their claims. Michael has gone so far as to claim it’s a mainstream belief, but no one, after several hours, has been able to produce anything to support it.
Yet you want me to “PROVE” that someone else’s statement is false, while not demanding that your leftwing friends “PROVE” that their statements are true. Laughable. -
Grog,
Then respond to the concepts. Show us how an incentive to take money out of a business would cause the business to grow.
An idea is reasonable or not on its own, whether you find other people who agree with it or not. Can you poke holes in the idea that since income taxes are assessed after business expenses, providing a tax benefit for keeping money as profit is a disincentive to investment?
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Look at it like this:
The only way you can take advantage of lower income taxes is to not invest some money in your business.
It’s that straightforward. It’s not complicated. I don’t care who floods the internet with intentional malinformation on that point.
Money that is invested in your business is not subject to income tax.
Money that takes advantage of a lower income tax rate was not invested in your business.
It’s not complex, Grog. I invite you to dispute those points.
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#92 written by Max 1 year ago
GROG,
Two things:
1) Is there anything, anything at all, in Michael’s work from 2 December on the matter of raising taxes relationship to job growth, that you find incorrect? If so, what? mc referenced this in #67?
2) Will you answer my question from numerous comments, most recently #62? -
DC and Michael, have made claims that lower tax rates for businesses discourages investment but have been unable after several hours to produce anything supporting their claims. Michael has gone so far as to claim it’s a mainstream belief, but no one, after several hours, has been able to produce anything to support it.
Nonsense. We’ve produced a great deal to support it. You’ve refused to respond.
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#94 written by Armchair Warlord 1 year ago
It occurs to me that our conservative commentators are probably unwilling to decisively engage because they’re wrong, they know it and they’re too intellectually dishonest to engage in a debate they know they’ll lose.
After all, I lost an argument once and subsequently realized that the right-wing position on most domestic issues makes literally no sense and can only be explained by slavish adherence to revealed truth, either from God or Reagan.
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#95 written by shortchain 1 year ago
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GROG,
You can look here to see where it’s discussed how the tax rate differential between personal and business income taxes encourages small businesses to invest…provided the personal rate is greater than the business rate. There’s a lot of other stuff in there as well, but I’m focused for the moment on the personal income tax rate issue that I alluded to earlier today.As I said before, the same force is at play (and for similar reasons) with a business income tax that is assessed on earnings after expenses, interest, and capital depreciation are deducted. That’s how business income taxes are assessed in the US.
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#97 written by GROG 1 year ago
AW,
It occurs to me that our conservative commentators are probably unwilling to decisively engage because they’re wrong, they know it and they’re too intellectually dishonest to engage in a debate they know they’ll lose.
Right. That must be it. I know I’m wrong in disagreeing with the assertion that “low taxes on businesses discourages investment”. It’s so obvious and such a mainstream idea, yet no one here can provide any evidence of it. They can’t point to an authority on the matter who has written something supporting it. They can’t find an article in any kind of an economics journal or magazine supporting it. They don’t have anything except their own theory trying support their far left vision that high taxes are inherently good and low taxes are inherently bad. They can’t even find anyone else who has put forward their theory. They tried their best at deflection because they don’t have anything else. And after all this, they still claim that it’s a “mainstream belief”.
Yet I’m the one who “knows I’m wrong”. And anything written that disagrees with them will be considered “right-wing nonsense articles claiming black is white”. That’s the way it works in their world. Apparently in yours, too. -
#98 written by shortchain 1 year ago
It’s pointless to argue with GROG about this. Even if you provide a link demonstrating, through statistical analysis, the truth of your assertion, he’ll simply ignore you or claim that your “authority” isn’t, er, “authoritative”. He’s certainly not alone in this — it’s a natural human tendency to dismiss or ignore facts which run counter to one’s worldview — but “the force is strong in this one”.
BTW, this was the very first link that came up when I searched on “do low taxes discourage investment”?
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#99 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
The only way you can take advantage of lower income taxes is to not invest some money in your business.
No, it’s not.
The best way to take advantage of lower income taxes is to make as much freaking money as you possibly can while rates are low. And that’s achieved by growing your business and investing in it. -
Grog, my good friend, you are perhaps missing an important part of the conversation.
“low taxes on businesses discourages investment”.
First, you left out a word. It should be, “low income taxes on businesses discourages investment.” We have been talking about income taxes here.
Second, we’ve been primarily talking about small businesses, which are mostly owned by one or two people, so that the taxes of the businesses are nearly indistinguishable from the taxes of the owner(s).
Small business income taxes are levied only on money that is not used for businesses expenses, and not used for growing the business. They only way a small business owner can take advantage of lower income taxes is to take money out of the business.
You are free to dispute any part of the previous paragraph.
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About dcpetterson (194 posts)
D. C. Petterson is a novelist and a software consultant in Minnesota who has been writing science fiction since the age of six. He is the author of A Melancholy Humour, Rune Song and Still Life. He lives with his wife, two dogs, two cats, and a lizard, and insists that grandchildren are the reward for having survived teenagers. When not writing stories or software, he plays guitar and piano, engages in political debate, and reads a lot of history and physics texts—for fun. Follow on Twitter @dcpetterson





Higher stock prices and higher gasoline prices. Hmmmm, I wonder who that favors in the ol’ income disparity equation.