Austrian Austerity
As we’ve all heard so often from the Austrian School adherents, the proper behavior for government in times of economic downturns is to reduce spending to match the lower tax revenues resulting from the lower amounts of economic activity.
American Republicans, of course, double down on this by suggesting that we should not only reduce spending to match the lower tax revenues, but that we should also lower tax rates to further reduce tax revenues, and reduce spending even further to match that lower amount of tax revenues. But today let’s look at the Austrians. Well, not the Austrians, per se, but rather a nation that has opted to hew pretty closely to the Austrian School of economics.
Yes, we don’t have to merely theorize about what the results would be in following the Austrian model of reduced government spending during a recession. We can make a pretty direct comparison.

Prime Minister David Cameron is shrinking goverment spending
You see, the United Kingdom’s Prime Minister David Cameron has been moving steadily toward the Austrian austerity model since he took the job in 2010. Much of the UK’s citizenry were enthusiastic in support of spending cuts. Cameron’s Finance Minister, George Osbourne, quickly cut government spending by 19 percent. He also cut the top income tax rate from 50 percent to 45 percent. Within a few months, the nation’s economy slowed noticeably. What was the administration’s response? More spending cuts, naturally.
And here we are, a few months after the second round of cuts. Would you be surprised to learn that the UK has gone back into a recession? In fact, it has now eclipsed the Depression era as the worst recovery period in the nation’s history. If you believe the Keynesian countercyclical economic theory, then you were expecting it. If you’re an Austrian adherent, you’re probably trying to come up with evidence that they simply hadn’t followed it closely enough…sort of how many Republicans believe that every GOP loss means that their candidate was so liberal as to be indistinguishable from a Democrat.
The UK now finds itself in a downward spiral. As Osbourne cuts spending, tax revenues are dropping even faster. Even in the rosiest projections, and despite his cuts, the national debt is expected to rise from its current 63.1 percent of GDP to 76.3 percent over the next two years.
The United States economy has more in common with the United Kingdom economy than it has with any other in Europe. Comparing the two, then, where the one major difference in 2010 and 2011 is the Keynesian versus Austrian model, is quite reasonable.
That’s not to say that the single data point is conclusive evidence. There are always local effects that can have additional impact, and introduce noise into the comparative model. That certainly could be the case here. Nonetheless, it’s yet another nail in the Austrian coffin.
It’s worth examining the United States economy during the Franklin Roosevelt years for an additional comparison. The economy showed a few signs of recovery after several Keynesian programs were implemented. Under pressure from Congress, stemming from concern regarding mounting debt, Roosevelt agreed to substantial cuts in these programs. Just as in the UK in 2011, the US recovery stalled. Unlike the UK, however, Roosevelt used that result as evidence in favor of additional Keynesian programs, which he was able to get enacted.
Here’s some food for thought: Republican Presidential candidate Mitt Romney proposes exactly the same sort of economic medicine as that implemented by Cameron & Co.: tax cuts on the wealthy, coupled with cuts in government spending.
Do we really want to follow in the footsteps of David Cameron?
Related articles
- The Austrian School Edge Over the Clueless Keynesians (economicpolicyjournal.com)
- Weisenthal, Again (economicpolicyjournal.com)
- An Austrian in the lion’s den (wnd.com)
- My Fed Speech, The Details (economicpolicyjournal.com)
- Balls Slams Coalition’s Economic ‘Catastrophe’ (news.sky.com)
- UPDATE | The cry of an innocent | David Cameron is disappointed by his “remarkable achievement” (jobmarketmonitor.com)
- Conservative Policies Fail In U.K. (lezgetreal.com)
- The Austerity Myth (spectator.co.uk)
- US economy grows as UK economy shrinks (leftfootforward.org)

This entry was posted by Michael Weiss on April 30, 2012 at 3:00 am, and is filed under Uncategorized. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0.You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.
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#2 written by shortchain 1 year ago
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And Wiki says we’re over 100%.
Which means what? What bad effects do you see from that? (Question, have we ever been over 100% before? If so, how did we lower that debt?)
And the UK retains its AAA rating, meanwhile the US was downgraded by S+P
Do you recall why the US credit rating was downgraded? (Hint: it wasn’t because of our debt level.)
Looks like the UK’s stock market is back to near 2008 levels and unemployment is fairly similar to ours.
And yet, they’re in a recession, and we’ve had 25 consecutive months of economic growth. We’ve also added well over 4 million new jobs since the recession bottomed out here. Sounds like we’re recovering a lot faster, doesn’t it?
So its appears Cameron took the short term pain of slower growth in exchange for not risking a severe credit crises, as nearly every country with worse debt than us has had. I’ll take it.
“Short term pain” — how, exactly, do you see Britain’s downward spiral ending? Since lower economic activity leads to lower tax revenues, which are used as a reason to cut spending and taxes, which causes lower economic activity, which leads to lower tax revenues, etc. etc. — what do you see on the horizon to end this “short term” pain? (Perhaps it will hurt badly enough that they’ll stop doing it?)
As far as credit crisis that “nearly every country with worse debt than us has had” — you’re talking about countries with much smaller economies, much less diverse economies, and (perhaps most important) countries that don’t have their own currency (they use the Euro). Do you think these factors had any effect? Do you honestly think there is a reasonable or rational comparison to be made between the economy of the US and that of, say, Spain or Italy?
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short term pain of slower growth
I want to note this in a separate comment of its own.
A shrinking economy (which is the definition of “recession”) is not “slower growth.”
It isn’t that Cameron’s policies are resulting in “slower growth” for some longer-term gain. He is doing active harm to the British economy.
Austerity measures in England have not “slowed growth” or lengthened the recovery. Austerity measures in England have reversed the recovery, and put them into a situation worse than the Great Depression of the 1930s.
This is a good opportunity for us, however. One of the reasons the US was able to recover so well from the Great Depression was that we were the only real manufacturing superpower left. With so much of Europe dedicating itself to destroying its economic base, America might wind up being one of the few functioning economies left (China being the other major one).
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#6 written by rgbact 1 year ago
Which means what? What bad effects do you see from that? (Question, have we ever been over 100% before? If so, how did we lower that debt?)
Only 5 “western” economies are ahead of us on the Wiki chart, and 4 of them (Greece, Italy, Portugal, Ireland) have had severe credit issues (massive downgrades, spike in bond yields) . So, thats the risk if we can’t grow out of our debt. -
rgbact, do you think the US economy is similar enough to the economies of those other nations to justify your concerns?
What, specifically, led from “debt levels” to “severe credit issues”? What’s the connecting tissue between those concepts, and is that connection identical between the US and those other nations?
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#8 written by rgbact 1 year ago
rgbact, do you think the US economy is similar enough to the economies of those other nations to justify your concerns?
Sure. Yes, there are differences, some you mentioned. It is true that alot of countries in Europe don’t have the flexibility that we have, so austerity is their only choice. ‘We don’t play by the same rules as everyone else”. is probably not the best fiscal policy though imo. -
#9 written by dawolf 1 year ago
@rgbact (Greece, Italy, Portugal, Ireland)
Greece has been forced into Austrian methods, but their basic problem is they were cooking the books for years and not collecting enough in taxes.
Italy is being forced into Austrian methods, but their basic problem is they don’t collect enough in taxes.
Not sure about Portugal.
Ireland put into place an extremely harsh cut, and their fall was even swifter than the UK’s.
Even with Irelands example, the tories and their lib dem idiot henchmen have decided that we need some pain in this country, so they are making drastic cuts. Unsurprisingly, it is damaging the economy badly. -
#10 written by shortchain 1 year ago
dawolf,
You left the biggest problem all these countries have: they do not have their own currency. If the UK hadn’t opted out of the Euro, they’d be in even deeper doo-doo than they are today, and sinking fast.
Just one of those minor differences between countries that are, obviously, less important than the amount of debt, relative to GDP (however that’s defined and measured these days)…
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Sure. Yes, there are differences, some you mentioned. It is true that alot of countries in Europe don’t have the flexibility that we have, so austerity is their only choice. ‘We don’t play by the same rules as everyone else”. is probably not the best fiscal policy though imo.
I notice you have not addressed my question. I asked, a couple of times, what is the mechanism you see that will lead from 1) debt to 3) credit crisis. What is Step 2)?
You seem to take as an article of faith that 1) will lead to 3), but don’t seem to have any idea what occupies the point in the center — or whether that point can be avoided.
We can’t have a serious discussion about whether “credit crisis” is a necessary (or even possible) result of “debt” unless you can provide a reason to link the two. Until then this is the equivalent of the *Magic!* that Republicans claim leads from 1) tax cuts to 3) prosperity.
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#12 written by Max 1 year ago
dc,
Sure. Yes, there are differences, some you mentioned. It is true that alot of countries in Europe don’t have the flexibility that we have, so austerity is their only choice. ‘We don’t play by the same rules as everyone else”. is probably not the best fiscal policy though imo.
I notice you have not addressed my question. I asked, a couple of times …
What did you expect? rgbact castigated me for not having a sense of humor when I pointedly derided his remark about the Utah candidate. But. somehow, he consistently deflects from the point when serious questions are asked of him.Remember the recent healthcare question rgbact posed about reducing costs? It was pointed out the Canadian system (along with MANY others) demonstrated that the cost curve COULD be bent downward. But he NEVER offered any solution of his own. He could not even reasonably discuss the issue, because, by his own admission, he had only looked at the Canadian system “somewhat”.
At least he is consistent.
And rgbact, before you take offense at my statement, let me make clear: I would MUCH rather you make comments that are meaningful and have good foundation, and even kick my ass, because you researched and could demonstrate the fallacies in my position! Instead, you give us a steady diet of diversion, error and talking points that can easily be shown false. -
rgbact,
‘We don’t play by the same rules as everyone else”. is probably not the best fiscal policy though imo.
Why not? Provided we’re not stealing or something of the sort, taking advantage of additional flexibility in monetary policy is the best fiscal policy…if it results in a better outcome.
Proper application of Keynesian countercyclical policy amounts to the fiscal equivalent of a terrestrial regrade in a hilly territory. You lower the high points, and use the fill from the hills to fill in the low points. The result is a flat, smooth, surface.
It becomes a mess, though, when times are good and there’s that urge politicians have to buy new shiny things rather than pay down the accumulated debt. Or they figure that times can be even better by doubling down on the stimulus. That latter behavior is one element that enourages economic bubble formation.
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#14 written by Max 1 year ago
It can be rationalized and talked around all you want, but the fact of the matter is that the “Austrian” methodology fails empirically. The UK is NOT in the EU and Spain is. BOTH cases demonstrate failure of the austerity path.
No, the economies are not identical to the US. But NO TWO NATIONAL ECONOMIES are exactly the same as another. That excuse is just an excuse. That rationale is just tailchasing. The UK and Spain are not exactly like each other, but BOTH used the same austerity path. BOTH are failing.
The US, even with the severe crimps put into the system by the GOP who WANT to see Obama fail, IS RECOVERING from the worst economic downturn since 1930, unlike the UK and Spain. The GDP is above where it was the last year before the crash and the stock market is well above where it was when Obama took office, almost back to its high before the crash. Unemployment is within a few tenths of a percent of where it was.
All this in three years. It took 8 years for GDP to recover in the 30’s and 12 for UE.
But, as the UK and Spain BOTH demonstrate, GOP austerity methods would NOT have put us there by now.
Too bad we’ll not know where we COULD have been by now without GOP obstructionism! -
#15 written by Max 1 year ago
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#16 written by mclever 1 year ago
What Michael said.

I won’t place blame for tax-cutting and over-spending during good times exclusively at the feet of Republicans, because Democrats have certainly abetted them in their theft of future prosperity. It’s part of the nature of a representative government that politicians are rewarded by voters for making things extra shiny now rather than for being responsible and forward-looking in ways that will provide longer-term and more lasting societal benefit. -
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#18 written by rgbact 1 year ago
The UK is NOT in the EU and Spain is
C’mon guy…do your research.
I notice you have not addressed my question. I asked, a couple of times, what is the mechanism you see that will lead from 1) debt to 3) credit crisis. What is Step 2)?
Hard to say. If someone owed you $50K on their salary of $50K.…what kind of event would suddenly spook you into losing faith that you will get paid back? Layoffs at their employer? A new baby? Its hard to predict what triggers a creditor to lose faith. Everyone thought housing was going great.…until they didn’t.
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rgbact,
I’m pretty sure Max was referring to the UK not being in the Eurozone, which is a subset of EU nations. But that’s why I corrected him on that point.If someone owed you $50K on their salary of $50K.…what kind of event would suddenly spook you into losing faith that you will get paid back?
People get mortgages all the time for amounts greater than their salary. Even now. So it’s not the amount of money owed relative to income (which barely has anything to do with debt-to-GDP ratio anyway).
What matters most is the cost of servicing the debt, relative to tax revenues. If servicing the debt consumes a substantial portion of tax revenues, then the government becomes unable to maintain basic functions, and gets into a death spiral of increased debt to service existing debt, leading to further debt servicing costs…
But that’s mostly a function of interest rates. For the time being, our government actually makes money by issuing debt, since the interest rate is lower than the inflation rate. That’s an anomaly, though, historically speaking. In other words, we’ve gotten lucky. But that’s not something we should count on in the long run.
Our focus should be first and foremost to get to a healthy economy, and then the top priority should become retiring the debt. Period.
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#20 written by shortchain 1 year ago
rgbact,
It all depends on their history and the collateral. If they’ve never defaulted on a debt in 200+ years, and if they’ve owed an entire year’s salary before and paid it back in full, and if they have a printing press to print money, I’d say they’re good for the debt.
Apparently, a lot of the fear conservatives feel is based on a fundamental inability to accept the concept that the economics of a country with an independent currency are just not like the economics of the Cratchett family.
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I notice you have not addressed my question. I asked, a couple of times, what is the mechanism you see that will lead from 1) debt to 3) credit crisis. What is Step 2)?
Hard to say.Okay then. You don’ t have an economic theory. You have a blind faith in the *Magic!* of spending cuts. So it’s probably not worthwhile presenting reason and evidence to you on this issue. Thanks for the admission.
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Apparently, a lot of the fear conservatives feel is based on a fundamental inability to accept the concept that the economics of a country with an independent currency is just not like the economics of the Cratchett family.
shortchain, another problem here is that conservatives feel that the way to handle it, when you have a $500 annual salary and $500 in debts, is to ask for a cut in pay.
I don’t understand the “logic” — but faith isn’t supposed to be rational.
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#23 written by Max 1 year ago
Michael,
Thanks for the clarification.
Yes, rgbact, I could have been clearer in making my point. But the misstatement notwithstanding, it does NOT CHANGE the FACTS and the point I made.
But now that you have actually DEMONSTRATED that you CAN do research and correct me, why don’t you demonstrate, with the same speed of response and clarity of logic, that MY POINT IS INCORRECT!
Or you can simply concede it to be true, either by statement or by default. -
#24 written by Max 1 year ago
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No, Michael. I mean to point out that in our form of government, We the People are the nation. We are the government. The public debt is our debt. Tax revenue is our revenue, to spend as We please.
The Republican meme that there is a dividing line between “the people” and “the government” is a lie. Pure and simple. We govern Ourselves.
Ronald Regan was full of shi-crap. The five scariest words in the English languages are, “I’m a corporation. Trust me.” The government exists to do what We the People tell it to, and as a Union of The People to protect us from the oligarchs.
The entire People of the United States of America stands behind our national debt. That is why we have always been the surest and most reliable investment in the world.
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#29 written by UnreconstructedLiberal 1 year ago
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#33 written by rgbact 1 year ago
Attached is a link to the recent downgrade from Egan Jones that didn’t get much attention. Bill Gross (biggest US bond fund manager) was just asked on CNBC if he sees more US downgrades coming–he said yes. I’m curious how much pressure is being put on S+P/Moodys by the Obama team to hold off on downgrades until after Nov.
http://nation.foxnews.com/us-credit-rating-downgrade/2012/04/06/egan-jones-downgrades-us-credit-rating -
#35 written by rgbact 1 year ago
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I, too, see future downgrades. A nation whose legislature is unable to take action when needed will be unable to do take actions to guarantee debt servicing. But that’s not about debt-to-GDP ratio; that’s about gridlock and a preference of burning the house to the gorund rather than sharing it with the other party.
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#40 written by GROG 1 year ago
To add to what Michael said, conservatives clearly don’t like Keynesian theory because we saw in the last three years that it works
Keynesian theory “works”? We’ve had 38 consecutive months of unemployment over 8%, the longest streak since the Great Depression.
March added 120,ooo private and public sector jobs; not enough to even keep up with the working age population.
The unemployment rate in all 39 months of Obama economy has been higher than any month under the Bush administration.
Since the unemployment rate does not include people so discouraged with this economy who have quit looking for a job, fewer Americans were employed at the end of March than at the end of February, even though the UE rate went down.
So keep thinking Obama’s Keynesian theory “works”. I hope Obama tells everyone during his campaign what a wonderful job he has done with the economy and how lucky we all are to have Keynesian policy in place, but I don’t think he’s that stupid. -
#41 written by Max 1 year ago
GROG,
Excellent point.
But, using ONE valid data point on which to hinge an entire argument, is the same as telling half (or less, of) the truth.
Even a QUICK glance at this chart on jobs data, one can see the depths to which the Bush policies drove down jobs. And the inflection point, under Obama, that has since continued to improve that picture.
(If I put the plane into a dive, once I start pulling the stick back to go up, the momentum will still have the plane going downward for a bit before it goes back up again. Try it sometimes.)
Since Bush LEFT Obama with a monthly JOB LOSS rate of 750,000, a JOB GAIN rate of even 120,000 and more equates to a difference of almost A MILLION JOBS PER MONTH IMPROVEMENT.
That said, you DIDN’T mention the recovery of the Dow and the S&P, now at highs approaching the pre-Bush recession level.
That said, you DIDN’T mention GDP recovery, now ABOVE the pre-Bush recession level.
Are things fully recovered yet? No, of course not.
But they are a damned sight BETTER than they were before Obama took office and his partial use of Keynesian solutions. PARTIAL, because of the obstinate obstructionism of the GOP.
But, fortunately (well not so much for the folks there) we have a pretty good comparison to weigh policy against! Can the same be said for the UK and Spain who HAVE followed the Austrian model so loved by the GOP here in the US?
Well, to answer that, GROG, why don’t you quote us some statistics from THOSE countries?
Thank you. -
#42 written by UnreconstructedLiberal 1 year ago
Grog:
So keep thinking Obama’s Keynesian theory “works”. I hope Obama tells everyone during his campaign what a wonderful job he has done with the economy and how lucky we all are to have Keynesian policy in place, but I don’t think he’s that stupid.So, you’re thinking the past four years has been an application of Keynesian policy?
We got an appetizer when we needed a four course dinner. -
Keynesian theory “works”? We’ve had 38 consecutive months of unemployment over 8%, the longest streak since the Great Depression.
March added 120,ooo private and public sector jobs; not enough to even keep up with the working age population.
The unemployment rate in all 39 months of Obama economy has been higher than any month under the Bush administration.Thank you for reminding up how badly Republican economic theory screwed up the economy during the Bush years.
Did you imagine that America could have recovered — all by itself — from the greatest worldwide economic collapse since the Great Depression, in a mere two and a half years? (Remember that the Bush/Republican Great Recession didn’t finally bottom out until midway through 2009.) Honestly?
We’ve had 25 consecutive months of economic growth. We’ve had over 4 million jobs created. We’ve had jobs added in the manufacturing sector, for the first time since the 1990s. We went from losing nearly 800,000 jobs every month to gaining between 100,000 and 250,000 every month.
All across Europe, there are protests — near riots — over the “austerity” measures that European nations have imposed. Following the prescription that Republicans want to write here, Spain, France, England, and Italy are in the depths of yet another recession, whereas we’re still steadily climbing out. Canada, which didn’t have the insanity of a Republican party telling them to lean into the oncoming punch, is already pretty much recovered. The contrast cannot be more telling.
You’re concentrating on how bad things still are, as a good partisan would do — forgetting that it was the policies of your guys that got us into this disaster, and the policies of your guys that are slowing the recovery. With one hand tied behind his back and with a wrecking ball attached to one ankle, President Obama’s policies are still running rings around the previous Republican administration.
We have more job growth every six months than Bush had in eight years. Even while struggling to pull out of the Bush Recession. Beat that.
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grog, much like Rasmussen, gets ‘A’ for effort as the conservative echo chamber can get quite crowded as the presidential election nears …
Again the rhetorical question re: grog’s heroes cheney/bush. Will they be allowed to attend, let alone speak lol at the Republican convention in Tampa?
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#45 written by rgbact 1 year ago
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#46 written by Max 1 year ago
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GOP obstructionism
Our do-almost-nothing Congress
“By the time the Republican-led House returns next week, members will have been working in Washington on just 41 of the first 127 days of 2012 — and that was the busy part of the year. They are planning to be on vacation — er, doing “constituent work” — 17 of the year’s remaining 34 weeks, and even when they are in town the typical workweek is three days.
Good work if you can get it — but the behavior is doing quite a job on the rest of us. On those infrequent occasions the House is in session, the Senate, also enamored of recess, often isn’t, which helps explain why the two chambers can’t agree on much of anything.
To call this 112th Congress a do-nothing Congress would be an insult — to the real Do-Nothing Congress of 1947–48. That Congress passed 908 laws. To date, this one has passed 106 public laws. Even if they triple that output in the rest of 2012 — not a terribly likely proposition — they will still be in last place going back at least 40 years.
Doing nothing would arguably be preferable to what the House is actually doing. Lawmakers have staged 195 roll-call votes so far this year, which sounds like a lot until you realize that boils down to only about 60 pieces of legislation, including post-office namings. Among the 60:
●The Mark Twain Commemorative Coin Act.
●The Sportsmen’s Heritage Act of 2012.
●Legislation requiring the Treasury to mint coins commemorating the 225th anniversary of the U.S. Marshals Service.
●The World War II Memorial Prayer Act.
●The Permanent Electronic Duck Stamp Act.”
and the band played on …
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#49 written by rgbact 1 year ago
I think $1T is enough, provided it’s spent on growth investments, which made up only about a quarter of the ARRA.
So you recommend Obama propose that? May be the right time. France appears ready to elect a socialist to “go Keynesian”, so it might be very popular. Buffett tax +$1T spending program would be interesting. -
shiloh,
The Republicans have no interest in governing. They don’t care about addressing any actual issues. Their only concern, as they’ve repeatedly said, is to defeat President Obama in the fall.
Since that is true, one can safely conclude that their rhetoric and proposed policies are not about addressing issues or governing or doing anything to help the economy. It’s only about defeating President Obama.
They’re all about political posturing, nothing more. They do nothing, because to do something would be to govern. It might actually help the economy. They’re not about governing or helping the economy. They’re about defeating President Obama.
We can safely conclude that Republican proposals are already designed to make matters worse, since their goal is not to help the economy, but to defeat President Obama. It would be easy to see what would be bad for the economy. Just follow any Republican proposal. That is the purpose of their current policies — to hurt the economy further, so they can defeat President Obama.
When they fail — when President Obama is reëlected in November — they will not begin governing then. Their purpose will be to make the economy worse, so prevent a Democrat from being elected in 2016. We will continue to see Republicans be lockstep mindless obstructionists, their only reason in life being to prevent anything from being done to improve the economy.
We can also safely conclude that they are not incompetent, but are instead actively out to harm our nation. If they were merely stupid, then their actions would, on occasion, by the laws of chance, sometimes help the country. That Republican proposals are universally destructive must imply intent.
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Again, to sum up dc’s post ~ Reps are sore losers!
On the bright side
for teabaggers. McConnell’s second “most important goal” is to make sure Obama is not a (3) term president. But in doing so, as dc suggests, they may be opening the door for Hillary in ’16.As the conservatives nightmare just keeps getting worse …
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#53 written by Max 1 year ago
The Republicans have no interest in governing. They don’t care about addressing any actual issues. Their only concern, as they’ve repeatedly said, is to defeat President Obama in the fall.
Perhaps this answers why we never get rock hard, solid arguments, versus parroting of talking points, from out resident conservative GOP apologists.
IE:
GROG: Nothing on those bastions of austerity, UK and Spain.
rgbact: Nothing on “easy” tactical and logistical means to have eliminated UBL.
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#54 written by GROG 1 year ago
To add to what Michael said, conservatives clearly don’t like Keynesian theory because we saw in the last three years that it works
In addition to 38 (we’ll find out it’s been 39 tomorrow) consecutive months of unemployment being above 8%, Keynesian theory has brought us a reduction of $4300 in real median household income since Obama took office.
We have now have the lowest homeownership rate in 15 years.
Keynesian policy has led to a record low level of financial comfort among Americans according to Gallup. “Sixty percent say they make enough to live comfatably, down from 65% in 2011″.
And reports point to another dismal jobs report for April in which job creation falls short of population growth.…again.
But hey, at least people who can afford to invest in the stock market are doing well.
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GROG,
Given that the number of jobs in the US has consistently been on the rise for almost three years, while the number is now falling in the austerity countries, it’s not particularly useful to bang on the 8% figure. Or have you forgotten that it has gone down to 8%, after peaking at 10%? The trend is more important than the current number.It’s unsurprising that we have the lowest homeownership rate in 15 years. One would expect that, given the size of the recession, which dwarfs anything else in the past three decades. Why now, when we’re recovering, and not, say, a couple of years ago? Because homeownership is a (very) lagging economic indicator.
But let’s drill a bit deeper on something here. GROG, are you claiming that the Austrian austerity model works better than the Keynesian countercyclical model?
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#56 written by Max 1 year ago
We have now have the lowest homeownership rate in 15 years.
Isn’t this “complaint” from the SAME contributor who has railed repeatedly that “democratic policy” to INCREASE home ownership was bad? That it was the cause of unqualified buyers being given high risk loans? Whose conclusion, as such, was that it was a contributor to the recession? Huh?
Hypocritical, much? -
#57 written by GROG 1 year ago
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#59 written by GROG 1 year ago
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#60 written by shortchain 1 year ago
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In addition to 38 (we’ll find out it’s been 39 tomorrow) consecutive months of unemployment being above 8%,
Thanks again for reminding us how badly the Republicans messed up the economy.
You keep telling us how terrible the Great Recession was. We agree. Republicans screwed up the world terribly.
Yes, things are still bad. That’s how awful Republicans made things.
The economy is improving, and has been improving steadily since Obama’s policies kicked in. Contrast that with the European countries who are following Republican ideas about tax-cutting and spending cuts.
But keep reminding up how badly Republicans screwed up. That line of reasoning will help Democrats in the fall.
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#62 written by Max 1 year ago
GROG,
If that is truly the case, then I would suggest that you do some research. I would also suggest that you start with contacting the major banks and mortgage lending companies and getting them to inform you of their lending policies, whether or not those policies have changed in the past 7 years and what their current downpayment requirements are as compared to 7 years ago.
Perhaps, your curiosity will bear fruit and you can inform us all what you have found out and what connections there may be between federal monetary policy, mortgage lending and home ownership.
If it is NOT truly the case, as I strongly suspect, then I predict that you won’t actually do a damned thing in that direction so as to assuage your curiosity.
Let us know. -
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#64 written by Max 1 year ago
dc,
Thanks for pointing out the “half-hearted” measures. I was about to add:
GROG, you ain’t seen shit for “Keynesian policy” for the past 3 years because of the obstructionism of the GOP. The total amount of “Keynesian” spending amounted to a few hundred billion dollars when it SHOULD have been something like $3–4 TRILLION, based on the size of the US economy and the depths the previous GOP administrations drove it down.
As far as the debt so resulting, if Reagan and the two Bush’s had only marched in place with deficit spending, and NOT ADDED $10 TRILLION to the federal debt during GOOD economic times, we could have spent less than half that $10 Trillion and STILL be well under our credit limit on the card! But Reagan and Bush I quintupled the debt so they could oversee economic growth, and Bush II doubled the debt AGAIN to pay for his two wars and tax cuts. -
You’re exactly right, Max. Reagan and the Bushes driving up our debt in good times was precisely the wrong thing to do. Republican insistence we should now cut spending is, again, the wrong thing to do. Republicans are good at suggesting the wrong thing to do.
Grog, if you want a serious discussion about current home ownership rates, let us know. Keynesian policies are not responsible for continuing decline of home ownership, any more than Keynesian policies are responsible for the growth of my bald spot or the release of the Avengers movie.
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#66 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
Please provide the mechanism you see between the half-hearted Keynesian policies of the last three years, and the current levels of home ownership.
That’s your job. It’s your claim that Keynesian policies are working. That’s why Republicans don’t like Keynesian policy, remember? You tell me why, with this Keynesian policy that is “working”, homeownership rates have fallen 5 percentage points since last year.
Explain why, with Keynesian policy that is working, we had less people working in April than we did in March.
Explain why, with Keynesian policy that is working, real median income has decreased by $4300.
Explain why, with Keynesian policy that is working, the middle class continues to erode.
Oh that’s right, it’s Reagan and Bush’s fault.
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#67 written by Max 1 year ago
GROG,
And YOU have yet to explain the correlation between LENDERS’ policies and homeownership rates and why THAT is NOT a factor such that national monetary policy has the greater impact.
I can say that driving down the street at 100 mph caused the tire to blow out, IF I IGNORE the corresponding fact that the car hit a deep pothole just before the blowout.
It’s YOUR assertion that Keynesian policy is the only factor, but YOU REFUSE to acknowledge the pothole.
Eliminate THAT factor, because WE KNOW there has been a significant change in lenders’ policies and that has been provide to you as an answer. You know it as well and until you can demonstrate that it is NOT the case you cannot be taken seriously. Until then, you are only blowing smoke.
Your other three demands for explanation can come AFTER you actually contribute to the discussion. Suffice it to say there ARE reasonable explanations.
But until YOU contribute more than smoke yourself, you aren’t really owed more than YOU are willing to do. -
#68 written by Max 1 year ago
And to tell you, once again, that there was only maybe a fifth, at best, the amount actually necessary spent towards a real Keynesian policy.
If you’re drowning 100 yards off shore, and I throw you a 20 yard rope, you ain’t getting saved in a timely manner.
Get real. Get serious.Why do I say that you’re neither serious nor more than just blowing partisan smoke? Because you haven’t the cojones to even acknowledge as fact the debt rang up by your GOP heroes!
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#69 written by GROG 1 year ago
Max,
As far as the debt so resulting, if Reagan and the two Bush’s had only marched in place with deficit spending, and NOT ADDED $10 TRILLION to the federal debt during GOOD economic times, we could have spent less than half that $10 Trillion and STILL be well under our credit limit on the card! But Reagan and Bush I quintupled the debt so they could oversee economic growth, and Bush II doubled the debt AGAIN to pay for his two wars and tax cuts.
From the end of 2001 up until the end of 2007, $1.7 trillion was added to public debt. From the time we started the spending spree in 2008 to the end of 2011, we added $5.1 trillion to public debt. We added 3 times more debt in half the amount of time since 2008.
Public doubled from 2008 to 2011. And you call that a “half-hearted” Keynesian effort. If we had only spent a few trillion more, everything would be OK.
Excuse while I spit my coffee all over my computer screen. -
#70 written by shortchain 1 year ago
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#71 written by Max 1 year ago
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#72 written by Max 1 year ago
AND:
From the end of 2001 up until the end of 2007, $1.7 trillion was added to public debt. From the time we started the spending spree in 2008 to the end of 2011, we added $5.1 trillion to public debt. We added 3 times more debt in half the amount of time since 2008.
Since you, quite simplistically, can only equate deficit spending to Keynesian policy; since you cannot or will not, recognize that MAINTAINING spending, in constant dollars, not as a % of GDP since GDP fell the last Bush years, and NOT spending as a true economic stimulus, you obviously need to go back and study the macro economic model.
Oh no, THAT won’t work, because then you would have to do more than cherrypick you numbers to maintain your delusion.
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That’s your job. It’s your claim that Keynesian policies are working. That’s why Republicans don’t like Keynesian policy, remember? You tell me why, with this Keynesian policy that is “working”, homeownership rates have fallen 5 percentage points since last year.
I never claimed there was a connection between Keynesian policies and home ownership. Just as I never claimed there was a connection between Keynesian policies and American Idol. You’re the one claiming there’s a connection. Map it out for me.
If you want to know the real reason for the continuing decline in home ownership, then ask that.
Explain why, with Keynesian policy that is working, we had less people working in April than we did in March.
Provide me some stats. Let me see what you’re claiming.
Explain why, with Keynesian policy that is working, real median income has decreased by $4300.
Not everyone that Bush threw out of work has found a job yet. If you want to keep reminding us how badly the Republicans screwed up the economy, go ahead.
Again, provide me with your stats and their source.
Explain why, with Keynesian policy that is working, the middle class continues to erode.
Republican obstructionism is a big part of it. We’ve cut way back on spending in areas like education and infrastructure. The President’s American Jobs Act was filibustered. If you want the middle class to recover faster, tell the Republicans to get out of the way.
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#74 written by GROG 1 year ago
Max,
Oops.
U/E rate drops another .1 point to 8.1.Oops is right. Another dreadful jobs report despite the fact that Keysian policy is “working”. From Reuters:
Employers cut back on hiring in April and the jobless rate fell as people gave up the hunt for work, a somber note on the economy that could hurt President Barack Obama’s re-election chances.
When hiring is not keeping up with the amount of people entering the workforce and the unemployment rate goes down, what do you think is happening to the denominator?
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Employers added 115,000 jobs in April (as contrasted with laying off nearly 800,000 the month President Obama took office).
The unusually mild winter means that a lot of this year’s spring and summer hiring took place in December through February.
The figure for jobs added in March was revised upward, from 120,000 to 154,000.
There’s no question that job growth is still too slow. One part of that is due to public worker jobs. 15,000 public workers were laid off in April (Republicans doing their part to keep job growth low).
Since we’ve only had about $300 billion or so in actual stimulus spending, and that was almost three years ago, it’s long past time for another injection. But not with this Congress.
And I agree with shortchain. Read Krugman today.
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#76 written by shortchain 1 year ago
GROG,
Why do you want to focus on trailing economic indicators? (Note: that link is to one of the sites you like to use, investopedia.) A leading indicator would be the derivative of the UE, which, of course, indicates recovery today, as it is falling. -
Again, are “you” better off now than when Obama took office:
September 2008 – 280,000 jobs lost
October 2008 – 240,000 jobs lost
November 2008 – 333,000 jobs lost
December 2008 – 632,000 jobs lost
January 2009 – 741,000 jobs lost
February 2009 – 681,000 jobs lost
March 2009 – 652,000 jobs lost
April 2009 – 519,000 jobs lost
May 2009 – 303,000 jobs lost
June 2009 – 463,000 jobs lostie cheney/bush economic legacy …
grog, take care
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GROG points to U6:
When hiring is not keeping up with the amount of people entering the workforce and the unemployment rate goes down, what do you think is happening to the denominator?
You mean like these people, being screwed over by businesses happy to get for free what they should be paying for?
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In fact, look at this graph of U6 and explain to me how it’s President Obama’s fault.
http://portalseven.com/employment/unemployment_rate_u6.jsp
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Mono,
Damn lazy people. They should get real jobs. Isn’t that we we keep hearing?
When it comes to assistance programs, unemployment insurance, food stamps, etc., Republicans say these people should just go out and find work. But when Republicans want to complain about the economy, they insist there are no jobs, and that the economic collapse is President Obama’s fault.
Republicans want to cut gubmint spending, which means throwing more people out of work. That’s somehow gonna improve the unemployment numbers. Riiiight.
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In fact, look at this graph of U6 and explain to me how it’s President Obama’s fault.
It’s President Obama’s fault because it’s not all fixed yet.
After doing their best to prevent Obama’s policies from actually being enacted, Republicans want to blame the current state of the economy on policies that were never fully enacted.
This was the strategy that Congressional Republicans decided upon on the day of President Obama’s inauguration. They would oppose everything, without exception, and without question, and blame the resulting damage and partisanship on the President.
It remains to be seen whether the American public is stupid enough to fall for this. We’ll find out in November.
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#82 written by Max 1 year ago
Once again, GROG provides no answers.
Seems the GOP apologist is just like the GOP candidate:
If Obama’s doin’ it, I’m agin it!
Detracts, never adds.
Complains, never offers specifics on what HIS solution would be.
And never, NEVER admit the truth. Always, ALWAYS cherrypick, ignore & deflect. -
#83 written by GROG 1 year ago
Max,
Oh no, THAT won’t work, because then you would have to do more than cherrypick you numbers to maintain your delusion.
Riiigghht. I cherry picked those meaningless, inconvenient little statistics like employment, median income, homeownership rates, and personal financial security.
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GROG,
You tell me why, with this Keynesian policy that is “working”, homeownership rates have fallen 5 percentage points since last year.
I already did.
Explain why, with Keynesian policy that is working, we had less people working in April than we did in March.
We didn’t. A gain of 115,000 jobs is 115,000 more people working. Unless you’re claiming that the jobs were added, but nobody bothered to fill them. Is that your claim?
Explain why, with Keynesian policy that is working, real median income has decreased by $4300.
It’s a combination of factors, but the primary one is that middle manager jobs are typically among the first to go, and the last to return, in a recession.
Explain why, with Keynesian policy that is working, the middle class continues to erode.
Keynesian policy has nothing to do with the mix of available employment. You might as well be asking why, with Keynesian policy that is working, North Korea continues its saber-rattling.
Public doubled from 2008 to 2011. And you call that a “half-hearted” Keynesian effort.
Public debt is not the measure used to quantify application of Keynesian countercyclical policy.
When hiring is not keeping up with the amount of people entering the workforce and the unemployment rate goes down, what do you think is happening to the denominator?
Baby boomers are retiring. That’s going to happen at a pretty high rate for the next decade. It’ll happen whether the economy is booming or not.
Riiigghht. I cherry picked those meaningless, inconvenient little statistics like employment, median income, homeownership rates, and personal financial security.
That’s exactly what you did. You picked only lagging indicators. What a surprise, the lagging indicators haven’t shown improvement yet. Do you mean to imply that the positive leading indicators don’t have a high probability of leading to positive lagging indicators in the future?
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#85 written by GROG 1 year ago
Michael,
Lagging indicators? We’re in the fourth year of the Obama presidency and employment is stalled to a level where it’s not keeping up with the population, financial security is declining, less and less people own homes, median income is declining. How many more years do you need?And this is 2 years after the “Summer of Recovery” that never happened.
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#86 written by GROG 1 year ago
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#87 written by shortchain 1 year ago
GROG,
While you may harp on how bad it’s been for so long, I can tell you from firsthand experience that jobs (in my area, at least) are coming back. I’m sure I’m not alone in getting calls from headhunters — calls that dropped off in the Bush years and stopped completely in 2007 — and I happen to know that college graduation hiring is up quite dramatically (again, in my area) this year over last.
So you may see the glass as almost empty, but I doubt you are going to make much headway in convincing the rest of us, who see it starting to fill up again.
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GROG,
We’re in the fourth year of the Obama presidency and employment is stalled to a level where it’s not keeping up with the population, financial security is declining, less and less people own homes, median income is declining. How many more years do you need?
If you look at the unemployment rate, it plateued until late 2010. Some lagging indicators (homeownership in particular) need over three years to manifest. Given that unemployment was on the rise until October, 2009, it shouldn’t be surprising to see homeownership still declining in early 2012.
The labor force participation rate is based on people of working age. Not retired people.
Indeed it is. I assumed you misspoke when you referred to “keeping up with the amount of people entering the workforce”. Most people who talk about the rate of new jobs compare it to “population growth”. But since it appears you didn’t misspeak, what’s your source for the “amount of people entering the workforce”?
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#90 written by Max 1 year ago
2010 June:
GDP — $14.8 T, U/E Rate - 9.6%, DowJones — 9686, S&P — 1030, US total non-farm private employment — 106.9 M.
2012 April: GDP — $15.6 T, U/E Rate — 8.1%, DowJones — 13100, S&P — 1300, US total non-farm private employment — 110.16 M.
GROG says: “And this is 2 years after the “Summer of Recovery” that never happened.“
”… never happened” Bullshit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There are the numbers.Which would you prefer to be saddled with: complete and total denial, ignorance, or purposeful partisan stupidity?
Once AGAIN, it’s not all we want, it’s not perfect, but it’s the best that can be achieved with total GOP obstructionism. -
#91 written by GROG 1 year ago
Once AGAIN, it’s not all we want, it’s not perfect, but it’s the best that can be achieved with total GOP obstructionism.
Wahhhh!
This incessant whining and snotting about “weepublican wobstructiwism” is pathetic. Democrats have been obstructing prosperity in this country since at least 2006 and beyond. Get over it. You got crushed in 2010 nationwide because of your failed policies.
There are 27 bills passed by the House that the Senate will not act on due to obstructionism. It’s the way it works. Quit your whining. -
#92 written by Max 1 year ago
GROG,
Once again I note that you take only the snarky route in response to a comment that 80% of which was a direct challenge to your assertion. And at that, it took the best part of a full day for you to come up with that poor rendition. No response on the data presented. What’s the matter? Facts beat you down?Again?
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#93 written by Max 1 year ago
That out of the way, did you want to debate the numbers (GDP UP 5.4%, U/E rate DOWN 1.5 percentage points, Dow UP 40%, S&P UP 40%) that show your assertion of #85 to be, frankly, a lie.
And in that comment you again mention home ownership rates (“less and less people own homes”) when you bitched for DAYS about the INCREASE in home ownership rates. Nor have you demonstrated YET that lending policies have a substantially SMALLER impact than semi-Keynesian policies of the past three years, though you have been invited to do so since you started that particular whine. -
GROG,
This incessant whining and snotting about “weepublican wobstructiwism” is pathetic.
I’m afraid you have it all wrong here. One cannot go around claiming “Democrats got everything they wanted, and it didn’t work,” while simultanesouly saying “So what if Republicans obstructed the things Democrats want; that’s how it works.”
So, which is it? Did Keynesian policy get a chance to work, or was it obstructed (rightly, in your view?) by Republicans?
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Grog, we wouldn’t be harping on Republican obstructionism if Republicans would take credit for the damage they’ve done. It’s what they set out to do. They should be proud, not complaining about it.
You can’t very well criticize “Obama’s policies“for the current bad aspects of the economy, when your guys have been preventing much of Obama’s policies from being implemented. If the American Jobs Act had been passed, if the Bush tax cuts had been allowed to expire on the most wealthy, if President Obama’s plan to reduce future deficits by over $4 trillion had been enacted, then maybe you’d have cause for complaint if you didn’t like the outcome.
But since your guys have been preventing many of the President’s policies from being enacted into law, you can’t very well complain about the effect of policies which haven’t been enacted. If you don’t like the way things are, perhaps that’s due to having stood in the way of repairs.
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#97 written by rgbact 1 year ago
So, which is it? Did Keynesian policy get a chance to work, or was it obstructed (rightly, in your view?) by Republicans?
Can you think of another time with a combination of big spikes in spending, low taxes for the poor, and massive monetary stimulus?Yes, since 2011, its been “obstructed” somewhat. Still, most “cuts” were put off till years later.
Incidentally, an Indiana TV station had a good piece on illegal immigrants getting massive tax credits for children back in Mexico. Hey-free money, why not? Trickle up economics.
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#98 written by Max 1 year ago
Can you think of another time with a combination of big spikes in spending, low taxes for the poor, and massive monetary stimulus?
Well take a look at the chart below that shows federal spending in constant 2005 dollars. Those “big spikes” came, for the most part, during the Bush II watch. The Obama watch has a great deal of variance, but no “big spikes” like the previous admin.
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1993_2012USk_12s1li011lcn_F1f
Look at the Clinton years, ’93 — ’01. A relatively low slope. Then from ’02 — ’09 a much HIGHER slope in federal spending growth.
Hmmm. Delude yourself much? -
#99 written by Max 1 year ago
rgbact,
Incidentally, an Indiana TV station had a good piece on illegal immigrants getting massive tax credits for children back in Mexico. Hey-free money, why not? Trickle up economics.
Could you please provide a link to that report?
Don’t bother. I found it.
Thanks.
Seems that law has been on the books for years! Do you know when it was passed? Actually, it covers ALL non-resident and resident aliens who do not require a SSN. Is there any data on how many actual illegal aliens are using the ITIN? Because I would think that an illegal, using an ITIN, would be self-incriminating. Remember FAA v Cooper?
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#100 written by GROG 1 year ago
Max,
And at that, it took the best part of a full day for you to come up with that poor rendition.
Nope. Since this blog has taken such a huge leap to the extreme left, I don’t visit as much. That’s all. Be patient.
2010 June:
GDP — $14.8 T, U/E Rate - 9.6%, DowJones — 9686, S&P — 1030, US total non-farm private employment — 106.9 M.
2012 April: GDP — $15.6 T, U/E Rate — 8.1%, DowJones — 13100, S&P — 1300, US total non-farm private employment — 110.16 M.
GROG says: “And this is 2 years after the “Summer of Recovery” that never happened.“
”… never happened” Bullshit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There are the numbers.The labor force participation rate is at a 30 year low. People are giving up on this economy. It’s not even worth it for them to search for a job anymore.
Regarding bragging about creating 3.26 million jobs in 2 years, this economy needs to create 125,000 jobs per month just to keep up with the growth in population. The population grew by 3 million during that period. That’s a terrible record of job creation.
The Dow Jones? That’s great for people who can afford to invest in the stock market. Not so much for those who have given up on the Obama economy.No response on the data presented. What’s the matter? Facts beat you down?
I gave you facts regarding pathetic job reports, poor personal financial security data, declining home ownership, and delcining median income. You came back bragging about how wonderful job reports are and the DOW. So no, facts haven’t “beat me down”. Try again.
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About Michael Weiss (322 posts)
Michael is a jack of many trades, and master of a few. His varied background includes government and private businesses, both large and small. His experience in the financial services and computer industries has led him to computer security.






Even in the rosiest projections, and despite his cuts, the national debt is expected to rise from its current 63.1 percent of GDP to 76.3 percent over the next two years
And Wiki says we’re over 100%. And the UK retains its AAA rating, meanwhile the US was downgraded by S+P and will likely get downgraded again this year (Egan Jones ratings already has) if we see a couple so-so jobs reports.
Looks like the UK’s stock market is back to near 2008 levels and unemployment is fairly similar to ours. So its appears Cameron took the short term pain of slower growth in exchange for not risking a severe credit crises, as nearly every country with worse debt than us has had. I’ll take it.