Austrian Austerity
As we’ve all heard so often from the Austrian School adherents, the proper behavior for government in times of economic downturns is to reduce spending to match the lower tax revenues resulting from the lower amounts of economic activity.
American Republicans, of course, double down on this by suggesting that we should not only reduce spending to match the lower tax revenues, but that we should also lower tax rates to further reduce tax revenues, and reduce spending even further to match that lower amount of tax revenues. But today let’s look at the Austrians. Well, not the Austrians, per se, but rather a nation that has opted to hew pretty closely to the Austrian School of economics.
Yes, we don’t have to merely theorize about what the results would be in following the Austrian model of reduced government spending during a recession. We can make a pretty direct comparison.

Prime Minister David Cameron is shrinking goverment spending
You see, the United Kingdom’s Prime Minister David Cameron has been moving steadily toward the Austrian austerity model since he took the job in 2010. Much of the UK’s citizenry were enthusiastic in support of spending cuts. Cameron’s Finance Minister, George Osbourne, quickly cut government spending by 19 percent. He also cut the top income tax rate from 50 percent to 45 percent. Within a few months, the nation’s economy slowed noticeably. What was the administration’s response? More spending cuts, naturally.
And here we are, a few months after the second round of cuts. Would you be surprised to learn that the UK has gone back into a recession? In fact, it has now eclipsed the Depression era as the worst recovery period in the nation’s history. If you believe the Keynesian countercyclical economic theory, then you were expecting it. If you’re an Austrian adherent, you’re probably trying to come up with evidence that they simply hadn’t followed it closely enough…sort of how many Republicans believe that every GOP loss means that their candidate was so liberal as to be indistinguishable from a Democrat.
The UK now finds itself in a downward spiral. As Osbourne cuts spending, tax revenues are dropping even faster. Even in the rosiest projections, and despite his cuts, the national debt is expected to rise from its current 63.1 percent of GDP to 76.3 percent over the next two years.
The United States economy has more in common with the United Kingdom economy than it has with any other in Europe. Comparing the two, then, where the one major difference in 2010 and 2011 is the Keynesian versus Austrian model, is quite reasonable.
That’s not to say that the single data point is conclusive evidence. There are always local effects that can have additional impact, and introduce noise into the comparative model. That certainly could be the case here. Nonetheless, it’s yet another nail in the Austrian coffin.
It’s worth examining the United States economy during the Franklin Roosevelt years for an additional comparison. The economy showed a few signs of recovery after several Keynesian programs were implemented. Under pressure from Congress, stemming from concern regarding mounting debt, Roosevelt agreed to substantial cuts in these programs. Just as in the UK in 2011, the US recovery stalled. Unlike the UK, however, Roosevelt used that result as evidence in favor of additional Keynesian programs, which he was able to get enacted.
Here’s some food for thought: Republican Presidential candidate Mitt Romney proposes exactly the same sort of economic medicine as that implemented by Cameron & Co.: tax cuts on the wealthy, coupled with cuts in government spending.
Do we really want to follow in the footsteps of David Cameron?
Related articles
- The Austrian School Edge Over the Clueless Keynesians (economicpolicyjournal.com)
- Weisenthal, Again (economicpolicyjournal.com)
- An Austrian in the lion’s den (wnd.com)
- My Fed Speech, The Details (economicpolicyjournal.com)
- Balls Slams Coalition’s Economic ‘Catastrophe’ (news.sky.com)
- UPDATE | The cry of an innocent | David Cameron is disappointed by his “remarkable achievement” (jobmarketmonitor.com)
- Conservative Policies Fail In U.K. (lezgetreal.com)
- The Austerity Myth (spectator.co.uk)
- US economy grows as UK economy shrinks (leftfootforward.org)

This entry was posted by Michael Weiss on April 30, 2012 at 3:00 am, and is filed under Uncategorized. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0.You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.
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#102 written by Max 1 year ago
GROG,
Just goes to show that there are a composite of both good and bad in the current economy. With a substantial majority of worker’s retirement being in 401k’s, etc., don’t sneer so at the Dow and S&P. Don’t act as though only the 1%er’s are the only one’s there.
Again, the question on the table is NOT where we are currently, it’s how we got here and how we go forward. Empirically, as you seem to have forgotten by spending so much time in the weeds, we can SEE the Austrian policies at work in the UK and in Spain, and even a PARTIAL Keynesian application in the US. Thus we can compare this real-time experiment and see the results.
And the Austrians are LOSING. You have not demonstrated anything, with your obfuscation, any differently! Come up out of the weeds and lets discuss the REAL issues.
Since this blog has taken such a huge leap to the extreme left, I don’t visit as much.
Sorry you had not noticed the left leaning positions of many contributors previously.
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GROG,
The labor force participation rate is at a 30 year low. People are giving up on this economy.
I presume by putting these two sentences next to each other than you claim the former is the cause of the latter.
What was happening to the labor force participation rate between 2000 and 2007?
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#104 written by GROG 1 year ago
Max,
we can SEE the Austrian policies at work in the UK and in Spain,
It’s ridiculous to take countries who have been forced to cut back on spending after being entrenched in European style socialism for generations and are now on the brink of economic collapse due to debt, and use that as evidence that Austrian economics doesn’t work and wouldn’t work in the U.S. That’s absurd. The spending cuts in Spain are an act of desperation. Of course they’re still in crisis.
DC made this comment a few days ago:Following the prescription that Republicans want to write here, Spain, France, England, and Italy are in the depths of yet another recession, whereas we’re still steadily climbing out.
That’s an even more absurd comment. If you want to see what our economy would look like if Democrats had free reign on this economy without “Wepublican Wobstwuctionists”, read this article concerning what’s going on in Spain and Europe.
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#106 written by shortchain 1 year ago
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#108 written by Max 1 year ago
GROG,
after being entrenched in European style socialism for generations and are now on the brink of economic collapse due to debt,
Well, now, I thought you have previously argued that US debt was a serious problem leading to disaster. But now you DON’T WANT to compare other countries with debt issues? And looking at the chart below, comparing the US, UK and Spain the past 40 years, constant, equitable dollar, per capita, it appears the positive slopes OF ALL THREE COUNTRIES are on par with one another. Until after 2007 and ONLY THE US has recovered to above the previous GDP!!!!! And this chart does not cover the past 18 months where BOTH Spain and the UK have FALLEN FURTHER.
This period includes the Thatcher years in the UK. And those ‘socialist” years in Spain. And the slopes are STILL ON PAR with each other!
Nope, looks like your “socialism” theory is a failure. Wanna try again? Or you wanna just keep on denying?
http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=ny_gdp_mktp_cd&idim=country:ESP&dl=en&hl=en&q=spain+gdp#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gdp_pcap_pp_kd&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=region&idim=country:ESP:GBR:USA&ifdim=region&tstart=10731600000&tend=1273035600000&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false
That chart you referenced on participation rates is quite interesting.
From Jan ’93 — Jan ’01, Clinton years, 66.2 = 67.2, +1.0
From Jan ’01 — Jan ’09, Bush I years, 67.2 — 65.7, –1.5!!!
Interesting. Let’s drill down. Did this fall start in September 2008? Noooooo!
Feb ’01, Bushes 1st month it fell 0.1, and in April ’01 it fell to 66.9 and HAS NOT been above 67 since! The decline began IMMEDIATELY with Bush! By Sept ’07, it was already down to 66.0, wiping out the entire gain of the Clinton years! BEFORE the crash!
Yes, it has dropped over the past three years, no doubt. But it has been on a downward slope SINCE 2001! WHY?
What other issues did you wish to raise about the Austrian experiment failure? -
Grog,
Did you read the article you linked?
The renewed market turmoil is a product both of the ECB measures under its Longer Term Refinancing Operations (LTRO) and the austerity program being imposed across Europe at the insistence of the financial markets.
The point of the article is that the current European economic collapse is due to austerity measures — exactly what the Republican obstructionists are proposing here.
If your point is that it’s possible to institute insanely austere programs without Republicans around, I’d agree — “Republicanism” is a US political party. But Austrian conservativism is far too common, even in Europe. Just because Europe does it, that doesn’t make it “socialist”. You need to pull your head out of the FOX.
You ridiculed my statement, and then linked to this article to tell why — yet the article you linked supports my statement.
By the way, you said –
The spending cuts in Spain are an act of desperation. Of course they’re still in crisis.
So, Spain is still in crisis, because of things that happened before 2008, even though since 2008 they’ve been doing what you want them to. Yet the US is still in crisis because of things that happened after 2008, even though we’ve improved in the last three years and Spain hasn’t. Additionally, what happened to the US before 2008 should now be ignored, even though pre-2008 is still controlling Spain, and the US should return to our pre-2008 policies, which, apparently, have nothing to do with our current state of affairs.
Interesting.
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By the way —
Over the last three years, America has lost nearly a half million public sector jobs, because Republicans have insisted on cutting gubmint spending.
A half million jobs equates to roughly half a percentage point in the unemployment numbers.
So if it was not for Republicans insisting on cutting gubmint spending, the unemployment rate would today be about 7.6%.
Republican policies in the last three years are directly responsible for the loss of nearly a half million American jobs.
Thank you.
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Why, indeed? One thing I can tell you is that it has very little to do with economic policy.
wait wait wait waitwaitwait, you mean the employment participation rate is NOT a direct result of the annual deficit?
Really?
Those two are not in lockstep sync?
Can you mean to imply that the utility (or harm) of running a deficit has to do with 1) what the deficit is used for, and possibly 2) the larger state of the nation’s (and/or the world’s) economy as a whole?
Is there a possibility that the new-found Republican “Deficitz R Bad” idea, and the Cheney/Bush “Ronald Reagan proved deficits don’t matter” meme are BOTH wrong?
Say it ain’t so!
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#115 written by Max 1 year ago
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#116 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
The point of the article is that the current European economic collapse is due to austerity measures — exactly what the Republican obstructionists are proposing here.
No, that is not the point of the article nor is the European ecoonomic collapse due to auterity measures. It’ due to debt. A small amount of research and you would know that.
So, Spain is still in crisis, because of things that happened before 2008, even though since 2008 they’ve been doing what you want them to.
Again, you have very little understanding of what has happened in Spain since the 2008 collapse. I would recommned a simple Google search.
In 2004, José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero of the Spanish Socialist Workers Party won office. He was reëlected in 2008. In 2009 Spain began increased spending on public works projects and and unemployment benefits to try to spur economic growth. It failed. Not until less than 2 years ago, not 2008, did they implement austerity measures out of desperation.
The Socialist Party was voted out in late 2011 and replaced by the conservative Popular Party.
To take an economy like Spain, who’s government spending is nearly half of it’s GDP, spends itself into oblivion, then is forced to cut spending towards levels of sanity less than 2 years ago, and then use that as evidence that Austrain Economics doesn’t work and Republican policies resemble that of Spain, is just plain stupid. -
#117 written by GROG 1 year ago
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No, that is not the point of the article nor is the European ecoonomic collapse due to auterity measures.
We may have not read the same article, then. I provided a quote from the one I read.
I know it’s obvious, but can you please explain to me how an increase in population is the reason the labor participation rate has declined to it’s 30 year low?
I was joking. I apologize for interfering with your answer to Michael’s question. Here’s the question again:
Why was labor force participation declining from 2000 to 2007?
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#119 written by Max 1 year ago
GROG,
You just are in full denial.
Did you completely ignore the chart data I cited? Yes. Because it does not fit your pre-ordained conclusion.
FYI, Spain’s debt-to-GDP ration is almost exactly that of the US. So, by your faulty reasoning (debt), the US and Spanish economies should be about the same. They’re not. The US is better off. Spain is using the Austrian model, America is not.
You can continue to make political, anti-socialist arguments all you want, but they are completely invalid, totally useless, in this current economic debate! The DATA does not meet your expectations, so you argue bullshit. Try facts!
You cannot rebut the data on the growth slopes over the past 40 years of the GDP of the three countries at question! Admit it. Austrian school fails.
You ignore Michael correcting dc in #112. The analogy that I mention in #115 is probably completely over your head.
You say that you have been avoiding the site because you recently discovered it is left-leaning. I don’t really believe you. I believe it’s because you cannot hold up your end of the arguments presented here. And you have recently gotten tired of constantly being called out for that failing.Naaa, “just plain stupid” is deliberate denial of the facts before you.
Sorry. -
Not until less than 2 years ago, not 2008, did they implement austerity measures out of desperation.
So, wait, they’ve been engaged in Austrian austerity measures for almost two whole years and they haven’t repaired their economy yet??
The Republicans have been down President Obama’s throat since a couple of days after he took office! Why does Spain get such a long honeymoon?
But worse than not repairing the economy in almost two whole years, the Austrian austerity measures that Spain is now committing are throwing them into another recession. It’s moving them the wrong way, while the US, even with a pitifully half-hearted stimulus, is slowly and steadily continuing to climb out of the worldwide Great Recession.
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Max, please don’t call names. I can get sarcastic and caustic at times as well (probably more than I should). Grog is almost always even-tempered and is an incredibly good-natured person, given all that we heap on him. And he’s a very valuable and valued sparring partner. Please don’t make it worse for him.
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#123 written by Max 1 year ago
dc,
When GROG ceases calling people “plain stupid” then I’ll agree with your analysis of his being “even tempered”. I’m sure he knows the difference between “stupid” and “ignorant”.
Reading # 119, I do not believe I called GROG any names. I most certainly accused him of actual and implied actions in his debate tactics, both of which, if he would correct, would, at the least, garner him MUCH more respect as an opponent, and could actually WIN some debates. Both of which, used deliberately, are degrading to him and an insult to those used against. But if you will point out my name-calling, I’ll be glad to apologize to GROG personally and the list as well.
Sorry.
That said. Moving on.
So, wait, they’ve been engaged in Austrian austerity measures for almost two whole years and they haven’t repaired their economy yet??
Was that a direct criticism to GROG’s earlier comment, in re: “And this is 2 years after the “Summer of Recovery” that never happened.”???
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#124 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
We may have not read the same article, then. I provided a quote from the one I read.
You need to read further than the second paragraph of the article. The reason Spain in on the brink of economic collapse is because of it’s debt. The reason they have been forced to take austerity measures is because of it’s debt.
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#125 written by shortchain 1 year ago
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#126 written by GROG 1 year ago
Max,
FYI, Spain’s debt-to-GDP ration is almost exactly that of the US. So, by your faulty reasoning (debt), the US and Spanish economies should be about the same. They’re not. The US is better off. Spain is using the Austrian model, America is not.
First of all, Spain not using an Austrian model. You can’t take a country like Spain who’s government spending accounts for nearly half of it’s economy, cut spending for less than 2 years and declare the “Austrian model” doesn’t work. (Well, I guess you can declare that, but it would be absurd.)
Secondly, you point out that Spain and the U.S. have nearly the same debt as a percent of GDP. That’s true and yet Spain’s debt is crisis has the world economy of the brink of disaster. Why do think that is? Do you think it may be because the U.S. economy and the Spanish economy are different?
When a country’s federal government accounts for such a large chunk of it’s economy, what happens when that country is forced to cut spending? A huge portion of that economy is also cut. That’s why the necessary austerity measures are hurting Spain;s economy. That’s why it’s immoral to have an entire economy so severely dependant on government spending.
That’s why you don’t invoke Austrian measures after it’s too late, and then claim Austrian measures don’t work less than 2 years later. -
#127 written by GROG 1 year ago
It’s a good deal more complicated than just “debt”. As anyone who has paid attention should know.
Yes, I know. That’s why I suggested DC do some research on Spain. He’ll learn such things as austerity measures didn’t start in 2008 in Spain. And lots of other things about the Spanish debt and default crisis.
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#128 written by GROG 1 year ago
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#129 written by shortchain 1 year ago
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#130 written by shortchain 1 year ago
I take GROG’s lack of answer to mean he can’t answer. Which is the answer I always get when I ask a follower of Austrian economics. You are supposed to follow the strictures of their economics theory no matter how long it takes, and you are never offered any — even approximately quantifiable — result, just pie in the sky by and by.
This is unlike modern economic theory, which is statistically quantifiable (although not deterministic). The problem with the stimulus package that was passed under Obama in 2009 is that it was pointed out at the time that it was on the low end of what theory called for, meaning that it would provide too little stimulus — and it was further pointed out that, when it inevitably failed to provide enough stimulus, there would be no political will to enact a second round which would provide sufficient stimulus. And so, here we are.
Obama and his advisers, whether through natural timidity or a fear that a larger package wouldn’t make it through Congress, didn’t even try for a larger package, and now we see the result. (Personally, my money is on natural timidity — Obama seems to be overly cautious most of the time.)
My upbringing, in an extremely religious environment, has left me with a distrust of the kind of faith-based ideology that says “just do this, and this, and avoid doing that, and you’ll live forever, or have a happy life.” If I’m going to be asked to accept hardship, I would like to have a quantifiable benefit, either to me or to the people I care about — and it will be a null argument if the promise is in the next life or, economically, at some impossible-to-predict, even approximately, time in the future.
And so, GROG, consider me strongly opposed to any adoption of Austrian austerity. Also “trickle-down economics theory”. And homeopathic medicine, astrology, alchemy, numerology, Lamarckian evolution, and the tooth fairy. -
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#132 written by shortchain 1 year ago
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#133 written by rgbact 1 year ago
I’m rather confused by this reference to “austrian austerity”. I always thought the big deal about Austrian economics was focusing on the role of the central bank, like Ron Paul and the Fed. Ergo, fiscal policy isn’t as big a deal. Don’t think European central banks have been that austere overall. At a minimum, its hard to blame a country like Spain for central bank austerity, when it doesn’t have control over a central bank. -
you point out that Spain and the U.S. have nearly the same debt as a percent of GDP. That’s true and yet Spain’s debt is crisis has the world economy of the brink of disaster. Why do think that is? Do you think it may be because the U.S. economy and the Spanish economy are different?
Grog, we are agreed there. Spain is not the US.
Therefore, it is silly to point to Spain and say, “Look! They’re in crisis because of their debt! That’s gonna happen here too unless we cut government spending!”
You said it yourself: “the U.S. economy and the Spanish economy are different”.
We’re seeing a big difference now. The more Republicans manage to cut public spending the more jobs we lose in the US. We’ve lost nearly half a million public sector jobs in the last three years. We’d have an unemployment rate around 7.6% today, instead of 8.1%, if we hadn’t done that.
Another difference — Whatever the conditions are in Spain, even the half-hearted stimulus package we put in place here has given us 25 months of uninterrupted economic growth. (That money has just about run out, by the way. If growth slows, that will be part of why.)
Another difference — since instituting austerity measures, Spain has slipped back into another recession. The US economy is still growing. GM is again the biggist auto manufacturer in the world.
In fact, all of Europe is going back into recession. We’re still growing. Why do you think that is? Could it be because we haven’t instituted European austerity measures?
You have to remember — public spending is part of the GDP. If you reduce public spending, then you reduce GDP by exactly that amount. In fact, you reduce GDP by more than that amount, because of the multiplier effect of decreased economic activity (less consumers have less money to spend; that means fewer widgits are bought, and the widgit makers have to lay people off; also reduced tax revenue, which means higher public debt — etc etc etc).
Anyway, since you’re insisting that “the U.S. economy and the Spanish economy are different”, let’s stop using Spain as a warning that the US debt is too high, okay?
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#136 written by rgbact 1 year ago
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#138 written by shortchain 1 year ago
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#139 written by Max 1 year ago
Well, we’re about to see Keynesian theory applied elsewhere now. With the defeat of Sarkozy, France’s experiment with austerity is coming to an end. Francois Hollande (no relation) has won the presidency today
“Hollande has promised more government spending and higher taxes — including a 75-percent income tax on the rich — and wants to re-negotiate a European treaty on trimming budgets to avoid more debt crises of the kind facing Greece.”We shall see.
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#140 written by GROG 1 year ago
I take GROG’s lack of answer to mean he can’t answer. Which is the answer I always get when I ask a follower of Austrian economics. You are supposed to follow the strictures of their economics theory no matter how long it takes, and you are never offered any — even approximately quantifiable — result, just pie in the sky by and by.
You’re free to point out where I’ve indicated that I’m a “follower of Austrian economics”. I haven’t made an argument that Austrian economics can fix Spain’s debt crisis. I haven’t made an argument that anything can fix Spain’s debt crisis and economy. Their European social engineered philosophy of big government may be too far gone to be saved.
The argument I’ve made is that it’s foolish to take a country like Spain, who’s economy has been built around government spending, and use it as some kind of evidence that Austrian economics doesn’t work. Government accounts for almost half of it’s economy. They now have debt that they cannot repay. They had no choice as a nation but to cut spending.
Are you therefore claiming that, because Spain had to cut spending because of their debt crisis, they are now an economy based on Austrian economic theory and because their economy still sucks, Austrian economic theory is the same as the Easter Bunny?
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#141 written by Max 1 year ago
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#142 written by Max 1 year ago
GROG,
And I don’t believe your NEW argument of Spanish government spending half of it’s GDP holds a lot of water either.
<a href=“http://thinkprogress.org/yglesias/2010/03/12/196487/european-public-spending-revisited/”>This</a> link, shows a chart of average spending as a percent of GDP for most all Western countries between 2004 and 2007, the calm before the storm. Of the PIGS countries, Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain, only Portugal in in the top half; Greece is in the middle, Spain and Ireland are in the bottom half. Ireland below the US!
Germany spent more than all except Portugal. Denmark well above them all. We don’t hear the same issues with those countries.
There’s more to it than just debt and spending.
Care to step up to the plate once more? -
#143 written by shortchain 1 year ago
GROG,
You always want to turn it around and make it something someone else is claiming, while you hide behind the question.
My question was: how long do we have to wait before we conclude that austerity in the Austrian fashion does not work? If 2 years are not enough, how many years are? You like to ask questions, but you seem remarkably short on answers.
As for me, my understanding of economics indicates that 2 years of an economic policy, unless it involves inter-generational money transfers (which austerity does not), are more than sufficient. And I therefore look at Ireland, Spain, England, et al, and I see that austerity is a stupid policy.
So answer, please: how many years do we have to wait, and on what basis do you justify that answer?
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The funny thing is that Republicans have been pretending to support a balanced budget for at least 30 years. But whenever they get into power, they run up massive debts. It’s all propaganda. You’d think Republican voters would have caught on by now.
This Republican “austerity” meme is just so much crap. It isn’t what they do, and they only crank up the volume on it when there’s a Democrat in the White House.
Between Reagan and the two Bushes, the debt grew from about $1 trillion to its current ~$14 trillion. The only Presidents in the past 30 years to be fiscally responsible are Clinton (who managed to produce a surplus in his last years) and Obama (who has reduced the deficit since taking office).
I lay the entire 2009–2012 deficit squarely at the feet of George Bush, who took the Clinton surplus and turned it in a massive systemic deficit in the space of only two years. The current deficit is almost entirely due to 1) Bush’s unfunded wars, 2) Bush’s unfunded giveaway to drug companies (Medicare Part D), 3) Bush’s unfunded tax cuts, and 4) Bush’s economic collapse (which reduced revenues).
Even today, Republican recommendations for reducing the deficit consist of 1) more tax cuts for the wealthy (which will make the deficit worse, not better), 2) nibbling around the edges at programs like the EPA and women’s health (which are not only insignificant expenditures, but will ultimately cost the country more in the long run), and 3) complaining about Social Security (which adds not one dime to the deficit) and the solvent parts of Medicare (which do need to be fixed — but Republicans want to gut them entirely).
In other words, no actual deficit reduction, but a lot of social engineering.That is the legacy of the Republican budget balancing act. No budget balancing, but a lot of acting. All noise and fury, signifying nothing.
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#146 written by GROG 1 year ago
Max,
And I don’t believe your NEW argument of Spanish government spending half of it’s GDP holds a lot of water either.
New argument? That’s interesting since I made the comment about Spain being entrenched in European style socialism on my very first comment regarding Spain. Kinda like shortchain claiming I’ve changed the argument which is also a complete load of crap.
But anyway.….… according to Eurostat, Spain’s expenditures increased by 7.5% of GDP between 2005 and 2009, which brings their expenditures close to half of GDP.
From the Carnegie Endowment article:Amid this boom, Spain’s tax receipts swelled temporarily, generating more revenue than expected. As a result, the government was able to rapidly expand spending—by 7.5 percent of GDP from 2005 to 2009—while creating the impression of solid fiscal management and maintaining a public debt-to-GDP ratio that was among the lowest in the Euro area. Though Spain’s government sector is smaller than that of some other large European countries, the government sector’s rapid expansion contributed to Spain’s weak productivity performance.
Though Spain has put forth plans to cut its primary balance (the fiscal balance excluding interest payments) to below 3 percent by 2012, the government’s ambitious austerity plan is not set to kick in until next year, which is too late to preëmpt contagion from Greece.So no, implenting some spending cuts in 2010 in Spain is not evidence that Austrian economics doesn’t work.
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#147 written by Max 1 year ago
GROG,
“New” because you had been going on that debt was the problem. I provided data that showed Spains debt was roughly the same as the US last year. So then you started talking about spending. So now I’ve provided data that demonstrated that shows that A number of Western nations have a much larger spending to GDP than Spain. And THEY are not in the trouble currently that Spain is. Look at Denmark. Or Germany. Or any of others. They are doing the very things that you are decrying and they are fine! Where’s the correlation??? What’s the reason some are OK and others not?
You can cry “socialist” all you want. But you’ve provided exactly ZERO correlation between between what you have argued and Spain’s current crisis. Making a political argument in an economic debate does NOT score points. Providing data and demonstrating correlation WILL. -
Grog,
So, you’re saying that decades of operating under a particular system cannot be overcome by two years of new policy.
Similarly, the economy of the United States has been dominated, certainly since Reagan’s time, by crony capitalism and increasing deregulation. Why do you expect a little over two years of reform to be enough to erase all of America’s economic problems?
In any case, we’re puling out of the Great Recession, whereas Spain isn’t. That might indicate that we’re on a better course, mightn’t it?
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#150 written by GROG 1 year ago
Max,
“New” because you had been going on that debt was the problem.
Spain does have a debt problem. That’s a fact. There is no doubt about that. If you’re claiming they don’t, then let’s hear what you have to say about it.
When a nation is about to collapse undr the weight of it’s own debt and they are forced to cut back on government spending, what do you think is going to happen to economic growth when half of your economy is government spending? It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that economic growth will probably contract and that in no way is evidence that Austrian economics doesn’t work.
I’m not sure what is so difficult to understand about that. -
#151 written by Max 1 year ago
GROG,
Again you make political statements. No data to back them up. You have been given data that shows that there are MORE complicating factors than just debt and spending. Spain’s debt is roughly the same as the US. The UK’s is less. Both are using austerity, UNLIKE the US. Both are falling further into recession, the US is not.
“I’m not sure what is so difficult to understand about that.“
What’s difficult to understand is why you cannot answer the data that shows your conclusion, as to the WHY, to be incomplete and inconsistent. You are a corporate officer and director. You should have strong analytical skills that show WHY you make a decision. Do so now. No more political narratives. -
#152 written by GROG 1 year ago
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#153 written by Max 1 year ago
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When a nation is about to collapse undr the weight of it’s own debt and they are forced to cut back on government spending…
The problem isn’t debt. The problem is the inability to finance that debt. There’s a difference. Note: I’m not defending the debt levels of Spain or of the UK. I’m saying that if their economies were structured such that lenders / bond purchasers were willing to buy Spanish or UK bonds, then the current debt levels would be of little or no concern. And part of the reason bond purchasers aren’t willing to buy the debt is that it isn’t being issued in the currency of the nation, but rather in Euros. So your harping on “debt” is both misguided and incomplete.
By the way, in the case of Spain (and Greece) they’re being “forced” to cut back on government spending, NOT because of any internal issues having to do with the inherent problems of debt, but because these are the conditions under which other nations (such as Germany) have been willing to lend them money. Again, you’re being incomplete at best.
…what do you think is going to happen to economic growth when half of your economy is government spending? It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that economic growth will probably contract and that in no way is evidence that Austrian economics doesn’t work.
So, you admit that government spending is part of a nation’s GDP?
To paraphrase you, regardless of what percentage of an economy consists of public spending, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that if you reduce public spending, then economic growth will probably contract. It’s self-evident.
But the failure of Austerity is apparent not only that it forces economic growth to contract, but that it doesn’t make provision for encouraging economic growth to expand. How long should we wait for the UK and for Spain to recover from the Austerity-produced depression before we acknowledge that shrinking the economy does not grow the economy? (That’s a serious question. I’m not being rhetorical.)
I’m beginning to think that imposing austerity is a form of economic errorism.
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#155 written by GROG 1 year ago
So, you admit that government spending is part of a nation’s GDP?
Yes, of course. It’s an obvious fact.
To paraphrase you, regardless of what percentage of an economy consists of public spending, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that if you reduce public spending, then economic growth will probably contract.
And the larger percentage of an economy that is controlled by government, the harder the ecomony will be hit when it is forced to cut spending. That’s why massive government is so dangerous.
How long should we wait for the UK and for Spain to recover from the Austerity-produced depression before we acknowledge that shrinking the economy does not grow the economy?
Do you honestly think Europe’s economic problems arose out of the last couple years of austerity measures? Honestly?
In any case, we’re puling out of the Great Recession, whereas Spain isn’t. That might indicate that we’re on a better course, mightn’t it?
You said in comment #144:
The only Presidents in the past 30 years to be fiscally responsible are Clinton (who managed to produce a surplus in his last years) and Obama (who has reduced the deficit since taking office).
So “we’re pulling out of the Great Recession” and have done it while reducing deficits and keeping tax rates low tax rates. Interesting.
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#156 written by dawolf 1 year ago
Spains debt as a percentage of GDP, as shown here
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0nb8tBif81qlklvi.jpg
Note that it was DROPPING significantly up until the crisis. At the crisis, Spain put into place massive austerity measures, leading to millions of unemployed. Lower tax revenues, plus unemployment benefits.
Since then, Spains debt has skyrocketed.
Ireland & the UK (and other countries)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-gMN8yEA74WA/T22gfGAWWdI/AAAAAAAAAQE/8jTq0TEOy8w/s1600/oecd-debt-to-gdp-may-2011-png-gif.png
Note that Ireland insstituted much more savage austerity measures than the UK.
Note that the UK & the US have very similar slopes to their graphs, despite one being out of recession and growing, and one plunging back into recession.
Austerity measures can take many forms. I personally believe that if you cut out some waste, reduce salaries of the top quartile of government employees, and raise the higher levels of income tax, while keeping as much as possible running normally, it is less harmful to the economy as a whole than instituting savage austerity measures. -
And the larger percentage of an economy that is controlled by government, the harder the ecomony will be hit when it is forced to cut spending.
“Forced” by whom? If we’re talking about America, do you mean “Republicans?”
That’s why massive government is so dangerous.
We saw in 2008 why unregulated business is so dangerous. I’ll take a democratically-elected government any day.
Do you honestly think Europe’s economic problems arose out of the last couple years of austerity measures? Honestly?
I honestly think a big part of their current problems are due to austerity measures. That’s why they’ve been unable to recover. A big part prior to that was when Europe got caught in the shrapnel from the Bush recession.
But you avoided the question. How long do we wait, how much farther does Europe have to sink down the hole, before you realize that austerity is killing them?
So “we’re pulling out of the Great Recession” and have done it while reducing deficits and keeping tax rates low tax rates. Interesting.
Yeah. And we would have done it a lot faster if we could have done some actual massive stimulus spending. Despite Republican obstructionism, we’re doing pretty well.
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By the way, Grog, you seem to equate “stimulus” and “deficits.” I don’t.
If we had allowed the Bush tax cuts to expire, it would have reduced the deficit markedly — and allowed for a much larger stimulus package without increasing the deficit.
“Deficits” all by themselves are not necessarily stimulative. Two unfunded wars, an unfunded tax cut for the immensely wealthy, that’s not particularly stimulative, even though they’ve contributed markedly to trillion-dollar annual deficits.
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#159 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
Take a look at this graph showing Europe’s spending as a percent of GDP. Look what has happened since 2007. Spending as a fraction of GDP skyrocketed to above 50% in an apparent effort to fix it’s economic problems.
As for the UK, 50% of it’s economy is government spending. Please don’t pretend that anyone claims Austrian measures are going to sweep in and fix a country that is that broken in a couple of years. No Austrian economist I have ever read claims that. That’s not the purpose of, or a claim made by Austrian economic theory. It’s not a theory that claims to be able to fix countries so burdened with and reliant on government.
Hopefully the U.S. can be stopped from following the same path as Europe to a monstrosity of a central government, but I don’t believe we will.
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#160 written by GROG 1 year ago
Yeah. And we would have done it a lot faster if we could have done some actual massive stimulus spending. Despite Republican obstructionism, we’re doing pretty well.
Since everyone wants to compare the US to Europe, take a look at what European countries did with “massive stimulus spending” beginning in 2007 and let me know how it worked out for ‘em.
(I’m sure it wasn’t quite large enough and they didn’t keep spending quite long enough. If they did, I’m sure everything would have been OK.)
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Spending as a fraction of GDP skyrocketed to above 50% in an apparent effort to fix it’s economic problems.
No. Spending as a fraction of GDP went up because GDP collapsed. European public spending has actually gone down. Show me the per-capita spending numbers. I dare you.
Please don’t pretend that anyone claims Austrian measures are going to sweep in and fix a country that is that broken in a couple of years.
Why not? You insist on pretending that President Obama should have fixed the US economy in only a couple of years.
But I don’t think Austrianism will fix anything — not in two years, or two dozen. But we certainly can already see that Austrianism is sending Europe in the wrong direction, whereas the policies of Obama — which you say you don’t like — are sending us in the right direction.
take a look at what European countries did with “massive stimulus spending”
European countries never had “massive stimulus spending.” That’s simply false. See above.
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#162 written by dawolf 1 year ago
Grog, the NHS is part of UK government spending.
US government spending as a percent of GDP is about 40%
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/us_20th_century_chart.html
Exhibit 6, US healthcare spending — 16% of GDP
http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/oecd042111.cfm
So really, what’s the massive difference there? UK ~ 50% (inc healthcare), US ~ 56% (inc healthcare). -
#163 written by dawolf 1 year ago
I can say from a UK perspective that we definitely didn’t have a stimulus here.
What we originally had in late 2007/early 2008, under Labour, was a semi-Keynesian view of “stay the course” — don’t fire government employees and make things worse, instead use debt to cover the lower tax income. So it wasn’t true Keynesian, but it wasn’t Austrian either. We came out of recession.
Then the Conservatives managed to win a plurality of seats, and with their Liberal Democrat henchmen* instituted Austrian philosophy. Since then we’ve gone back into recession.
* The Conservatives said before the election that they would do this. The Liberal Democrats categorically said they would not. Unsurprisingly, the Conservatives have ended up disliked, and are behind in the polls a bit. The Liberal Democrats on the other hand are at their lowest point in at least 20 years, and possibly since they were founded. They certainly won’t recover while their current leader is in charge, such is the massive breach of trust they have committed over this and Student Loans. -
#164 written by shortchain 1 year ago
GROG,
You say “No Austrian economist I have ever read claims that.“
So what do they claim? If all they promise is eventual improvement, why should we believe them? After all, eventually we’re all dead, too.
You claim we can’t use anything on the order of a couple of years to illustrate the failure of Austerity, but you don’t give any indications for how long we need to measure, nor do you give any reason why two years is insufficient. Why not? Is there some required time period? If so, why?
I’m sorry, but your statements are useless as a guide to understanding. -
It sounds like the nice thing about Austrianism is that it never has to actually improve anything, ever.
Meanwhile, even a half-hearted stimulus package, coupled with a refusal to cut taxes further on the immensely wealthy, is enough to improve the economy here.
While nations that engage in austerity slide into yet another recession — which isn’t the fault of austerity, because, well, because austerity will eventually work some day.
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Austrians mostly focus on Keynesian stimulus as the cause of recessions, and believe that eliminating the stimulus of government spending, while painful in the short run, will eventually lead to the elimination of recessions altogether.
Of course, as noted, that eventuality is likely to be a long way off at this point.
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#167 written by shortchain 1 year ago
Michael,
I’m not satisfied with “eventually” as an answer. If they cannot put a time frame on the change within a decade, then they have a useless theory. I point out, in opposition, that Keynesian stimulus, even the weak one implemented in 2009, produced an almost immediate inflection point, as predicted. -
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#169 written by GROG 1 year ago
I point out, in opposition, that Keynesian stimulus, even the weak one implemented in 2009, produced an almost immediate inflection point, as predicted.
An almost immediate inflection? Unemployment is the same now, over 3 years later, than it was when the stimulus bill was passed in Feb. of 2009. It had no immediate inflection at all. Things got much worse immeidately after the passing of the stimulus, not better.
And over 3 years later, unemployment has stalled, labor participation rate is at a 30 year lows, financial security keeps declining, real median wages keeps decling. When will unemployment reduce to Reagan, Bushes, and Clinton, levels? When are wages going to increase? Why can’t you put a time a quantifiable time frime on these things?
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#170 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
No. Spending as a fraction of GDP went up because GDP collapsed. European public spending has actually gone down.
UK GDP at the end of 2007 = 367,433. Spending as % of GDP was 43.9%.
367,433 x .439 = 161,303
2007 Government expenditures was 161,303.
UK GDP at the end of 2009 = 344,907. Spending as % of GDP was 51.5%.
344,907 x .515 = 177,627.
2009 Government expenditures = 177,627.No. Spending as a fraction of GDP went up because GDP collapsed. European public spending has actually gone down.
No. Government spending in the UK increased by 10% in 2 years while GDP declined by 6%.
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Unemployment is the same now, over 3 years later, than it was when the stimulus bill was passed in Feb. of 2009
Are you claiming that unemployment has been constant for those three years?It hasn’t, of course. You’re just being silly.
Or are you pretending that the date the stimulus bill was passed is the date that the effects of the stimulus bill should have been immediately apparent?
Both of those claims are rather absurd, aren’t they?
And over 3 years later, unemployment has stalled,
No, it hasn’t. It went up to well over 9% and has since dropped almost to 8%, and the drop began as soon as the stimulus measures took effect.
labor participation rate is at a 30 year lows,
… partly because of Baby Boomers retiring. This trend will continue for the next 40 years or so.
financial security keeps declining,
You’ll have to define that.
real median wages keeps decling.
… to a great extent because middle management positions have not yet been recovered.
When will unemployment reduce to Reagan, Bushes, and Clinton, levels?
Clearly, a lot faster than if we followed European-style “austerity” measures, which are causing yet another recession over there, whereas we’re continually improving.
When are wages going to increase?
That’s a tougher one, but it’s not a metric we have so far discussed. You’re moving the goalposts.
Why can’t you put a time a quantifiable time frime on these things?
We already have. Things are undeniably moving in the correct direction here, and in the wrong direction in countries that have adopted Austrian strategies.
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#173 written by shortchain 1 year ago
GROG,
You really don’t understand “inflection”, do you?
It means, my good sir, that, when a change in policy is made, there may not be an instantaneous change, say, from 10 percent unemployment to 4 percent unemployment, and unemployment may even continue increasing, to 11 percent afterwards — but if you do not immediately see a positive change in the second derivative, you should seriously consider what you are doing.
An example from physics is when people step on the brake instead of the gas. If you are driving, and you press on the pedal and the vehicle slows down, you might figure it out. Of course, if you are going uphill, you may not, but if you step harder and you slow down faster, you ought to be able to figure out that you have your foot on the brake.
This is what the austerians in Europe have done — and yet, like you, they seem unable to understand that stepping on the brake is NEVER going to make the vehicle climb the hill.
Speaking of which, I need a break and I need to do some things which I can’t combine with reading blogs.
Take care.
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#175 written by mclever 1 year ago
Economic data is like a Rorschach test, where two people can be presented with the exact same information but come to vastly different conclusions based on how they squint at the picture. Frame of reference matters, which is why I truly appreciate Michael’s attempts at an empirical approach.
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#176 written by GROG 1 year ago
Are you claiming that unemployment has been constant for those three years?It hasn’t, of course. You’re just being silly.
No. It increased sharply following the stimulus and has bearly recovered to pre-stimulus levels.
Or are you pretending that the date the stimulus bill was passed is the date that the effects of the stimulus bill should have been immediately apparent?
Shortchain claimed the stimulus “produced an almost immediate inflection point”. Take it up with him.No, it hasn’t. It went up to well over 9% and has since dropped almost to 8%, and the drop began as soon as the stimulus measures took effect.
As soon as the stimulus measures took effect, huh? So you get to go back in time and determine when “stimulus measures took effect” and then miraculously match that up with when UE began dropping to it’s currently pathetic rate. Tha’t convenient. Especially considering the stimulus was sold on the fact that unemployment would never go over 8%.
You’ll have to define that.
I already linked to the Gallup poll earlier.
We already have. Things are undeniably moving in the correct direction here, and in the wrong direction in countries that have adopted Austrian strategies.
There you go comparing European social engineered economies to the United States economy. Meager spending cuts are not going to fix economies drowning in government in just two years. They may never be able to fix these countries. It’s why behemoth governments are immoral. There will eventually be a lot of pain and suffering.
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GROG,
It increased sharply following the stimulus…
Following the passage of the stimulus.
Shortchain claimed the stimulus “produced an almost immediate inflection point”.
And you took that to mean that he believed that the economy would be improved by the signing of the legislation, without any expectation that there would need to be a corresponding implementation? Surely you don’t believe he’s that stupid, do you? Or do you believe that the mere enactment of the legislation should have been enough?
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#178 written by Max 1 year ago
GROG,
The inflection occurred in the very same year in which the “stimulus” bill, such as it was, passed!
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1993_2012USk_13s1li011mcn__US_Gross_Domestic_Product_GDP_History
There was an inflection in 2007, where the previous 20 year+ rise in annual GDP (constant 2005 dollars) stopped and began a slight downward turn in 2008, pushing it down in early 2009. The bill was passed in 2009 and we see that there was another inflection after that, such that 2010 was another rise in GDP, still continuing.
It’s why behemoth governments are immoral.
You make a statement without any basis or proof. That is only your opinion for which you have no factual data with which to corroborate. A government that fails to protect and preserve it’s citizens could be considered immoral. In fact, a SMALL government, given the rise of the nation-state some 700 years ago, would be hard-pressed to preserve and protect its citizens, particularly from foreign enemies, and thus be considered immoral.
BTW, have you never heard of a flywheel? Or the “flywheel effect”?
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No. It increased sharply following the stimulus and has bearly recovered to pre-stimulus levels.
Shortchain claimed the stimulus “produced an almost immediate inflection point”. Take it up with him.
Michael effectively handled these. You didn’t expect that argument to be taken seriously, did you?
As soon as the stimulus measures took effect, huh? So you get to go back in time and determine when “stimulus measures took effect”
Well, yes. Legislation certainly can’t take effect before it is implemented, as Michael pointed out. And it certainly should take effect within a year or so of passage — which, as Max points out, the stimulus bill did.
Austrianism has certainly taken effect in Europe as well. Look at the oncoming European recession. It’s a direct result of the austerity measures.
Especially considering the stimulus was sold on the fact that unemployment would never go over 8%.
That was the projection in early January of 2009, yes. Then 1) the stimulus bill as passed which much smaller than was recommended, and 2) by the time the stimulus bill was implemented, unemployment was already over 9%, which means conditions were worse than anyone understood (even Romney) in January of 2009. Considering everything, this meme that “the stimulus was sold on the fact that unemployment would never go over 8%” is really pretty disingenuous at best, and willfully misleading at worst.
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There you go comparing European social engineered economies to the United States economy. Meager spending cuts are not going to fix economies drowning in government in just two years. They may never be able to fix these countries. It’s why behemoth governments are immoral. There will eventually be a lot of pain and suffering.
It sounds to me like you’re the one comparing the US economy to European economies. You don’t want us to get into a “debt crisis” (like Greece) and you don’t want our government to get “too big” (like all the European ones). Tell you what. I’ll stop comparing us to Europe if you do.
If we stick to the US economy, we see that the recession bottomed out in the summer of 2009 and has been steadily improving since. We can argue about what would make it improve faster, but one can’t credibly pretend that the stimulus didn’t help. The auto industry has been saved (even Romney is now trying to take credit for that), America is adding manufacturing jobs, unemployment is falling, the DOW has doubled since March of 2009, housing foreclosures are slowing. It’s all moving in the right direction.
Should we alter the course we’re on? Should we do more of what has worked so far? Or should we return to the policies that caused the crash? Should we reverse the policies that have been working, on an untested theory that goes against all common sense?
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#181 written by Max 1 year ago
which, as Max points out,
Actually, all I did was post the data, which spoke for itself.
Do I expect that GROG will analyze the data? No. Do I expect GROG will compare apples and apples? No. Just like he completely ignored the debt and spending curves for the US, the UK and Spain I posted a couple of days ago.
That data, compensating for constant currencies and purchasing power, demonstrated the almost EQUAL slopes for growth for the 20 years prior to 2007 FOR ALL THREE COUNTRIES. Three countries that had dissimilar economies, related to percent of GDP government spending and debt, yet showed almost equal GROWTH! Almost a “Zeroth law” analogy.
GROG can’t do it, because, in spite of his rants about “Euro-socialism”, the policies of the Euro economies cited DID NOT run them into the ditch! Everyone fell in TOGETHER in 2007 because of the heavy influence of the US economy and the mistakes of the policies of the previous US administration, NOT BECAUSE of “Euro-socialist” fiscal policies!
Otherwise, there was one damned big-assed coincidence!
Perhaps, GROG will present the data that will support the “coincidence” theory. Perhaps he can conclusively demonstrate that the Euros would have fallen even if the US had not!
But I doubt that as well. Because our friend has the wonderful knack of being completely blind to the portion of the spectrum that does not match his pre-conceived conclusions. Or else we’ll get an ideological rant; a political argument instead of an economic demonstration.
We’ll see if GROG will prove me wrong.
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the policies of the Euro economies cited DID NOT run them into the ditch! Everyone fell in TOGETHER in 2007 because of the heavy influence of the US economy and the mistakes of the policies of the previous US administration, NOT BECAUSE of “Euro-socialist” fiscal policies!
Wait.…
You’re claiming that America didn’t collapse because Europe brought us down? [\sarcasm]
You’re absolutely correct. Europe collapsed, not because they’ve got “big gummint,” but because America collapsed, and brought international banking and international trade with us.
The collapse was not due to “Euro-socialism,” but because of American increasingly deregulated vulture capitalism.
Austerity is not getting anyone out of the recession. Keynesian stimulus is.
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#183 written by GROG 1 year ago
Max,
Because our friend has the wonderful knack of being completely blind to the portion of the spectrum that does not match his pre-conceived conclusions. Or else we’ll get an ideological rant; a political argument instead of an economic demonstration.
I just want to thank you for the laugh this morning. Coming from a Logarchism commenter, that comment made me literally laugh out loud. Thanks.
GROG can’t do it, because, in spite of his rants about “Euro-socialism”, the policies of the Euro economies cited DID NOT run them into the ditch!
If you’d been paying one slight bit of attention, I have not argued that “Euro-socialism” ran them into the ditch. My argument is that most of these “Euro-socialistic” countries cannot be saved by some spending cuts. They are too entrenched in government to be saved by some mere spending cuts in less than 2 years once a debt crisis arises.
Everyone fell in TOGETHER in 2007 because of the heavy influence of the US economy and the mistakes of the policies of the previous US administration
Thanks again for another good laugh. You lecture me about making “political arguments” and “ideological rants” while at the same time making “political arguments” and “ideological rants”. Good stuff.
This entire thread has been a “political argument” that “Austrian economics” has failed in Europe. “Austrian economics” hasn’t even been implented in Europe, therefore it has not been a failure in Europe. It’s an absurd claim. That is my argument.
It’s your job to prove “Austrian economics” has failed in Europe by 1) proving it is being implemented in Europe and 2) proving it’s a claim of “Austrian economics” to be able to fix economies like those in Europe. So far, you have failed. -
#184 written by GROG 1 year ago
Perhaps, GROG will present the data that will support the “coincidence” theory. Perhaps he can conclusively demonstrate that the Euros would have fallen even if the US had not!
That’s not a claim I’ve made. Perhaps you can conclusively demonstrate where I have made that claim.
But I doubt that as well. Because our friend has the wonderful knack of being completely blind to the portion of the spectrum that does not match his pre-conceived conclusions. Or else we’ll get an ideological rant; a political argument instead of an economic demonstration.
Max, buddy. You’re constantly whining about my “debate style”. I have a solution. If you don’t like it, stop reading my comments. Don’t have discussions with me. Don’t respond to my comments. Problem solved.
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#185 written by Max 1 year ago
GROG,
Please don’t feel special because I made a point of you not being able to provide quantitative arguments that conclusively support your political position. I find that to be true of 99% of “conservatives” these days. Guess I missed the old days when conservatives THOUGHT.
I have not argued that “Euro-socialism” ran them into the ditch.
Funny you should say that.
Their (Spain) European social engineered philosophy of big government may be too far gone to be saved. (#140)
New argument? That’s interesting since I made the comment about Spain being entrenched in European style socialism on my very first comment regarding Spain. (#146)So you are now saying that Spain’s economy is NOT in the ditch?
Yes, I know you are saying Austrian austerity most likely cannot save Spain. You actually have not said that it can save ANYTHING, though you seem to support the concept. Perhaps you have the perfect model, the ONLY one that austerity CAN work successfully?
Still, it flies in the face of reality. We SEE austerity NOT working in the several years it HAS been implemented. We see even a half-assed Keynesian policy WORKING in the US in almost ALL the current indicators. (But not the lagging ones that you love to fixate on, because they are, well, lagging. But they ARE improving and are well off the bottoms!)
And you DO KNOW, don’t you, that Keynesian theory calls for balanced budgets and debt reduction during good economic times? You DO KNOW, don’t you, that Reagan, Bush I AND Bush II DID NOT do that? You DO KNOW, don’t you, that, at the end of an 8-year Obama administration, the national debt would have to be $30 Trillion to match the percent debt increase under Reagan’s term; and almost $22 Trillion to match the increase under Bush II? You DO KNOW, don’t you, that the ANNUAL DECLINE in GDP that Obama inherited (and has since turned around) did NOT occur under Bush or Reagan or ANY of the other post-war recessions, so asking why things haven’t turned around in short order as happened under those president’s is apples and oranges?I’m glad I was able to start your day with a laugh. Carry it with you all day and pass it on, my friend.
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#186 written by GROG 1 year ago
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#187 written by Max 1 year ago
GROG,
Max, buddy. You’re constantly whining about my “debate style”. I have a solution. If you don’t like it, stop reading my comments. Don’t have discussions with me. Don’t respond to my comments. Problem solved.
Now you’ve made ME laugh!
And let you get off with your inconsistencies and fallaciousness? Ain’t happening! I will continue to hold your feet to the fire, as I expect you to do for me.
Actually, you confuse “whining” with attempts to provoke you to original thought, factual claims and pertinent citations.
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#188 written by GROG 1 year ago
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#190 written by mclever 1 year ago
Max,
Honestly, I’ve learned a lot from this discussion on how the European economies are faring in comparison to ours. There’s been some good meat in this discussion, but it gets spoiled if both sides keep talking past each other.
I usually find the pertinent points you make to be particularly cogent and informative. However, I wish you would spend more time making those points and less time denigrating your debate opponents. I think you’d be more convincing if you focused more on how you arrived at your views and less on how incomplete you find someone else’s.
Most of us here are voicing opinions, some of them more factually-founded than others, and that goes for folks on both sides of the various arguments. You can lay out your case without belittling someone who maybe hasn’t thought things through to the same level of detail as you have. And then be patient when you’ve given someone something to think about…allow them time to mull it over before harping on them for an answer. I’d prefer a well-thought, well-researched answer a day or two later to a knee-jerk angry response every time. (And if they never answer, it’s probably fine to let it go, because their non-answer speaks for itself… See Michael’s Unprecedented Mandate article as an example.)
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#192 written by Max 1 year ago
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#194 written by GROG 1 year ago
mclever,
You can lay out your case without belittling someone who maybe hasn’t thought things through to the same level of detail as you have.
Thanks for the comments, but I don’t see how anyone on the opposing side of my argument has thought things through to any great level.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the argument being made is that Austrian economics has failed in Europe. That’s what I have issue with. The discussion has gone off into tangents and I’ve been accused of making arguments that I haven’t made, which happens frequently here. (And then I get accused of going into the weeds and deflection, but that’s another story.)
If an accusation is made that “Austrian economics” has failed in Europe, it seems to me that a couple things need to be explained in order for that accusation to valid.
1) Has “Austrian economics” even taken place in Europe?
2) Is it a claim of or the purpose of “Austrianism” to be able to fix economic problems such as those in Europe?
In my opinion, the answer to both of those questions is “no”.
This is the 194th comment and no one has explained where I’m wrong, so I have to respectfully reject the notion that the others have thought things through in any great detail thus far. But I’m willing to listen.(And if they never answer, it’s probably fine to let it go, because their non-answer speaks for itself… See Michael’s Unprecedented Mandate article as an example.)
I do my best to answer every question thrown at me. If I don’t, it’s because I missed it as I don’t have extraordinary amounts of time to spend on the internet.
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#195 written by GROG 1 year ago
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Grog,
Did you read the paper I linked? There’s plenty there about the recovery.
I’m fine with your position that Austrianism is unable to address the problems that we are currently having in the economy, and unable to provide useful guidance in recovering from the Great Recession. I suppose we are agreed on that.
Therefore, I’ll stick with Keynesian stimulus, which got us out of the Great Depression, and has helped us avoid anything similar until the Republican Great Recession of ’08-’09. Austerity certainly won’t; and since Austrianism advises austerity, and since we are agreed that Austrianism won’t help in this situation, let’s not pretend austerity will be useful.
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Here is an excellent historical examination of Keynesian theory and attempts to negate it.
One nugget from this article — in the recession of 1980–1982, “it was not until 1987 that the unemployment rate fell back to 1979 levels.” So much for expecting unemployment to already be resolved after the (far worse) Great Recession of ’08-’09.
Grog, it is interesting that you’re insisting we were significantly “recovering” from the Great Recession by the summer of ’09 (and therefore, stimulus is unneeded) — and yet you’ve also been insisting that things are every bit as bad now as they were three years ago. Make up your mind, make a consistent argument, and then let’s address your points.
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GROG,
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the argument being made is that Austrian economics has failed in Europe.
Speaking for myself, the argument is that the United Kingdom is moving in the direction of the Austrian model (specifically, elimination of deficit spending during a recession), and that the further in that direction they go, the worse their economy is getting. There are some that suggest that it’s a binary condition (Austrian to the letter, or it’s broken), but, for those who recognize that implementation of all theoretical constructs is on a graduated scale…since it appears that the farther the UK goes in that direction, the worse it gets, wouldn’t that suggest that having zero deficit spending would put the UK into a death spiral (at least for several years)?
I’m interested in hearing other explanations of how GDP started it’s climb in the middle of 2009 with basically no stimulus spending.
I don’t see how you get to “basically no stimulus spending”. Seniors got their Social Security boost, employed people got their tax reductions, and the first stimulus dollars started entering the economy. All of those things should have a pretty quick impact on GDP (albeit not in a dollar-for-dollar sense).
Is it a claim of or the purpose of “Austrianism” to be able to fix economic problems such as those in Europe?
Well, yes. They’re not going in that direction out of random chance. And I seriously doubt that the Tories would have won the election had they promised to implement austerity with the goal of causing another recession. People in the UK wanted action to improve the economy, exactly as people in the US do.
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Grog, let me direct you to the paper I linked, the section titled “Policy Responses to the Financial Crisis and Recession,” with the subheadings “Monetary Policy Actions” and “Fiscal Policy Actions.” That provides an excellent brief and clear summary of the responses to the Great Recession, and how we have begun to recover, including Bush’s $120 billion stimulus bill, TARP, various actions by the Fed, and ARRA.
No one ever claimed that that stimulus spending is the only tool in the government’s arsenal, just that it is a vital one.
Further, most Keynesians will tell you that government does indeed have a part. Most conservatives these days seem to claim it doesn’t, and Austrians / Austerians in particular seem to claim that gubmint can only do harm.
The paper I linked makes clear that government serves a vital role.
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#200 written by GROG 1 year ago
Micheal,
Well, yes. They’re not going in that direction out of random chance. And I seriously doubt that the Tories would have won the election had they promised to implement austerity with the goal of causing another recession. People in the UK wanted action to improve the economy, exactly as people in the US do.
“Implementing austerity” is not “Austrianism”. If anyone in the UK thought that implementing austerity, in a nation in which half of it’s economy is government spending, was going to improve their economy in the short run, then they’re fools.
since it appears that the farther the UK goes in that direction, the worse it gets, wouldn’t that suggest that having zero deficit spending would put the UK into a death spiral (at least for several years)?
For an economy so dangerously reliant on government, yes. From what I know of Austrian theororists, that’s not a claim they make. If I’m wrong, please show me.
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About Michael Weiss (322 posts)
Michael is a jack of many trades, and master of a few. His varied background includes government and private businesses, both large and small. His experience in the financial services and computer industries has led him to computer security.






Thank you for once again reminding us how badly the Republicans screwed up the economy.
… and during the eight years of the Bush Administration, we got a total of around one million jobs. One million in eight years would be around a quarter million in two years. Compared to Obama’s record of over four million (not 3.26) in two years. So Republican policies are one-sixteenth as good as Democratic policies.
You can complain that the recovery hasn’t been fast enough. I have the same complaint. But the Republicans are far worse, and their attempt to stymie Democratic policies has clearly slowed the recovery down.