Austrian Austerity
As we’ve all heard so often from the Austrian School adherents, the proper behavior for government in times of economic downturns is to reduce spending to match the lower tax revenues resulting from the lower amounts of economic activity.
American Republicans, of course, double down on this by suggesting that we should not only reduce spending to match the lower tax revenues, but that we should also lower tax rates to further reduce tax revenues, and reduce spending even further to match that lower amount of tax revenues. But today let’s look at the Austrians. Well, not the Austrians, per se, but rather a nation that has opted to hew pretty closely to the Austrian School of economics.
Yes, we don’t have to merely theorize about what the results would be in following the Austrian model of reduced government spending during a recession. We can make a pretty direct comparison.

Prime Minister David Cameron is shrinking goverment spending
You see, the United Kingdom’s Prime Minister David Cameron has been moving steadily toward the Austrian austerity model since he took the job in 2010. Much of the UK’s citizenry were enthusiastic in support of spending cuts. Cameron’s Finance Minister, George Osbourne, quickly cut government spending by 19 percent. He also cut the top income tax rate from 50 percent to 45 percent. Within a few months, the nation’s economy slowed noticeably. What was the administration’s response? More spending cuts, naturally.
And here we are, a few months after the second round of cuts. Would you be surprised to learn that the UK has gone back into a recession? In fact, it has now eclipsed the Depression era as the worst recovery period in the nation’s history. If you believe the Keynesian countercyclical economic theory, then you were expecting it. If you’re an Austrian adherent, you’re probably trying to come up with evidence that they simply hadn’t followed it closely enough…sort of how many Republicans believe that every GOP loss means that their candidate was so liberal as to be indistinguishable from a Democrat.
The UK now finds itself in a downward spiral. As Osbourne cuts spending, tax revenues are dropping even faster. Even in the rosiest projections, and despite his cuts, the national debt is expected to rise from its current 63.1 percent of GDP to 76.3 percent over the next two years.
The United States economy has more in common with the United Kingdom economy than it has with any other in Europe. Comparing the two, then, where the one major difference in 2010 and 2011 is the Keynesian versus Austrian model, is quite reasonable.
That’s not to say that the single data point is conclusive evidence. There are always local effects that can have additional impact, and introduce noise into the comparative model. That certainly could be the case here. Nonetheless, it’s yet another nail in the Austrian coffin.
It’s worth examining the United States economy during the Franklin Roosevelt years for an additional comparison. The economy showed a few signs of recovery after several Keynesian programs were implemented. Under pressure from Congress, stemming from concern regarding mounting debt, Roosevelt agreed to substantial cuts in these programs. Just as in the UK in 2011, the US recovery stalled. Unlike the UK, however, Roosevelt used that result as evidence in favor of additional Keynesian programs, which he was able to get enacted.
Here’s some food for thought: Republican Presidential candidate Mitt Romney proposes exactly the same sort of economic medicine as that implemented by Cameron & Co.: tax cuts on the wealthy, coupled with cuts in government spending.
Do we really want to follow in the footsteps of David Cameron?
Related articles
- The Austrian School Edge Over the Clueless Keynesians (economicpolicyjournal.com)
- Weisenthal, Again (economicpolicyjournal.com)
- An Austrian in the lion’s den (wnd.com)
- My Fed Speech, The Details (economicpolicyjournal.com)
- Balls Slams Coalition’s Economic ‘Catastrophe’ (news.sky.com)
- UPDATE | The cry of an innocent | David Cameron is disappointed by his “remarkable achievement” (jobmarketmonitor.com)
- Conservative Policies Fail In U.K. (lezgetreal.com)
- The Austerity Myth (spectator.co.uk)
- US economy grows as UK economy shrinks (leftfootforward.org)

This entry was posted by Michael Weiss on April 30, 2012 at 3:00 am, and is filed under Uncategorized. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0.You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.
-
#202 written by shortchain 1 year ago
-
#203 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
One nugget from this article — in the recession of 1980–1982, “it was not until 1987 that the unemployment rate fell back to 1979 levels.” So much for expecting unemployment to already be resolved after the (far worse) Great Recession of ’08-’09.
Then why was the stimulus package sold on the fact that unemployment wouldn’t go over 8% if passed? Did the Democrats not now about that nugget of history? You’d think Obama would have, what with his remarkable intellect and all.
Remember the mad rush to get the stimulus passed? We literally couldn’t wait another day, otherwise we risked unemployment that might approach 9%.Grog, it is interesting that you’re insisting we were significantly “recovering” from the Great Recession by the summer of ’09 (and therefore, stimulus is unneeded) — and yet you’ve also been insisting that things are every bit as bad now as they were three years ago. Make up your mind, make a consistent argument, and then let’s address your points.
No, you need to make up your mind. On one hand you brag about Obama reducing the deficit, and on the other you brag that Keynesian policy has brought us out of the recession, even though we began our way out of the recession before any significant amount of stimulus dollars had been spent.
You claim Austrian economics has failed in Europe after 2 years, yet we’re in the fourth year of the Obama economy and unemployment is still higher than when he took office, wages are declining, financial security is declining, people are giving up looking for jobs, and you say Keynesian policy has fixed the economy.
-
Then why was the stimulus package sold on the fact that unemployment wouldn’t go over 8% if passed?
My Gods, we’ve been over this. The projection you’re talking about was made in January of ’09. By the time the stimulus package (much smaller than recommended) was enacted, unemployment was already over 9%. The recession was far worse than anyone thought in January of 2009. Stop with this nonsense argument already, okay? I’m getting tired of typing the same rebuttal every time — a rebuttal which you refuse to acknowledge, every time.
On one hand you brag about Obama reducing the deficit, and on the other you brag that Keynesian policy has brought us out of the recession, even though we began our way out of the recession before any significant amount of stimulus dollars had been spent.
Because without the stimulus, the recovery would have stalled and reversed itself by the fall of ’09. The Obama Administration took many actions, as listed in the document I linked, twice now, that you refuse to acknowledge.
Make up your mind. Did the recovery begin already by summer of 2009? Or are still as bad off (maybe worse) as we were when President Obama took office? You’ve made both claims. You made both claims in the last comment, for crissake! Make up your mind and make a coherent argument.
-
You claim Austrian economics has failed in Europe after 2 years,
So have you. You’ve insisted Austrian economics cannot do anything to help Europe. Fine, they should damn well stop trying, because they’re harming the world economy.
yet we’re in the fourth year of the Obama economy and unemployment is still higher than when he took office,
You know damn well that’s a perversely disingenuous statement. The economy was shedding almost 800,000 jobs every single month when the President took office.It’ a bullshit time bracket to start it “the day he took office,” and you know it.
An economy in freefall doesn’t stop in one day just because a new president is sworn in. We’ve gained over four million jobs since the recession bottomed out, and you know that too, and you refuse to acknowledge it. At least acknowledge that fact, and try to make an argument against the policies that have brought back those jobs.
Why why why do you insist on these nonsense time brackets and nonsense arguments? You’re better and smarter than that.
and you say Keynesian policy has fixed the economy.
“Has fixed”? No. I never said that. Not once.
Not. One. Time.
“Is moving us in the right direction.” I’ve said that repeatedly.
And you know it’s true.
Meanwhile, even you have acknowledged that austerity is not only not working in Europe, but you’ve insisted it can’t work in Europe.
So what are we arguing about? Austerity is useless, and President Obama’s policies are moving in the right direction. You’ve admitted the first, and used complete nonsense in a weak attempt to dispute the second.
-
GROG,
GDP was in steady decline until August 2009, at which it time is began a steady climb. Barely 5% of stimulus funds had been released by August 2009.
Given when it had actually started entering the economy, the 5% (amounting to $42B) translates to a run rate increase of about 4% of GDP. That’s hardly “basically no stimulus spending”. Did you think any economists were advocating dumping a trillion dollars into the economy overnight?
-
GDP was in steady decline until August 2009, at which it time is began a steady climb. …
… we’re in the fourth year of the Obama economy and unemployment is still higher than when he took office, wages are declining, financial security is declining, people are giving up looking for jobs,
Make. Up. Your. Mind.
Are we in a “steady climb” because we did “basically” nothing before August of 2009?
Or are we still suffering, suffering, suffering, as bad as when Obama “took office,” because nothing has gotten a bit better at all since then?
Both arguments are nonsense, as has been repeatedly shown to you, yet you trot out the first when we dispute the second, and the second when we dispute the first, and you refuse to acknowledge any of the facts or evidence that is presented in dispute of both.
Plus. you continue with the silly argument about the January 2009 projection of the effect of a stimulus bill that was never passed, based on the best information that was available at the time.
Seriously, it’s hard to stay reasonable. I like you, a lot, but discussing things with you is like talking to one of those toys with a pull-string on the back that just repeats itself.
-
GROG,
Then why was the stimulus package sold on the fact that unemployment wouldn’t go over 8% if passed?
You have heard the answer to that repeatedly. The 8% number came from an estimate published in early January, 2009. By the time the ARRA was passed, unemployment had already crested above 8%. Something else in the document that’s worth considering: It predicted that unemployment would peak in Q3 of 2009 if the ARRA were implemented, but would not peak until the middle of 2010 without it. After the ARRA was passed, unemployment peaked in October of 2009 (that’s Q3). The shape of the curve as predicted was pretty accurate, too. The prediction was that unemployment would drop by 1% from its peak at the end of 2010. It dropped by 1% as of February, 2011 (two months late). It predicted the second 1% drop would take an additional 12 months. It took 14 months (again, two months longer than predicted).
So, no, it wasn’t perfect, but it was remarkably close on several key fronts.
-
#209 written by Max 1 year ago
Remember the mad rush to get the stimulus passed? We literally couldn’t wait another day,
Actually, the “mad rush” was under Bush/Paulsen in October 2008. And that was TARP. 3 October to be exact.
Obama wasn’t even elected for over a month.
And TARP ( passed with overwhelming GOP opposition in Congress, but signed by a GOP President) was NINE months before the GDP inflection. So some effect COULD be expected. Plus, we’ve been told for several years now by the GOP, that “uncertainty” drags down business and the economy. With the passage of TARP by Bush, the election of a Keynesian Obama, the auto industry salvation and the ARRA by Obama, all before July 2009, LOTS of uncertainty was erased and, again, some effect COULD be expected.
The difference is that the US is STILL GROWING, while the “austerity” countries HAVE NOT!
No reason to be surprised!
-
#210 written by GROG 1 year ago
Michael,
By the time the ARRA was passed, unemployment had already crested above 8%.
When ARRA was passed in February 2009 the unemployment rate was 7.8%. It had not already crested above 8%.
The paper written by Obama’s team in January 2009, when UE was 7.3%, predicted UE would peak at under 8% with the stimulus. Unemployment hit 10% in that same year. By December of 2010, nearly 2 years after the passage of ARRA, UE was 9.8%.
You can call that a success of Keynesian policy all you want. And you can call a couple years of austerity measures in Europe a failure of Austrian policy all you want. I’m not convinced. -
#211 written by shortchain 1 year ago
GROG,
We have to convince you? I’m not convinced that’s a reasonable goal.
As for me, and based on what you’ve written so far, it appears that everyone else’s plan must fix everything within a few years, and provide predictions of future economic conditions within a few percent, but austerity, or Austrian economic policies, whatever they promise or predict (and I am still waiting for what, precisely, those promises or predictions are) are given a free pass, in your mind.
-
shortchain, you don’t understand.
Austerians cannot be proven wrong, for they make no predictions. Austrianism is not a science. It is a belief. It is morally right and just to cut public services and public spending. Relying on public policy to achieve goals is morally wrong. In fact, since that is so, any expectation that Austerity will achieve a public goal — such as ending a recession — is, at best, morally suspect.
Public goals are, themselves, moral wrongs. The marketplace will right itself, and must simply be left alone. It’s not a matter of “when” Austerity will “achieve” anything. Austerity is an end in itself, and does not need to “achieve,” other than to end (or, at least, limit) the moral wrong of public spending.
Public spending and public goals are morally wrong, because they take my money and use it for something other than my purposes. I know what is best to do with my money, which I earned fair and square by taking it from someone else.
So, do not expect Austerity to end the recession, or even to improve economic conditions in any way. That’s not the purpose of the faith of Austerity. The purpose of Faith is never to achieve anything so base as a physical goal. That would sully the purity of the belief. The purpose of Faith is to reach a state of peace within oneself. And being with my money will put me at peace.
-
#213 written by shortchain 1 year ago
DC,
Oh, don’t get me wrong here. I know that “virtue is its own reward” (often quoted by decidedly, but secretly, non-virtuous religious leaders) — but I’m of a more pragmatic, evidence-driven, twist of mind.
If the issue comes down to one of faith, then we’re done here, because there’s no point in discussing it. Faith is not a very communicable disorder, and I’ve never heard of it being spread by blog discussions alone.
I’d just like to get it clear whether it’s faith we’re discussing. -
#214 written by Max 1 year ago
dc,
If I may add:
Public spending and public goals are morally wrong, because they take my money and use it for something other than my purposes. I know what is best to do with my money, which I earned fair and square by taking it from someone else. This irrespective of the social contract that exists, in the form of our representative government as framed in our Constitution, between myself and the other citizens of this country. -
#215 written by Max 1 year ago
And, dc, you are MORE correct than you may think!
From Wikipedeia:
Whereas mainstream economists generally use economic models andstatistical methods to model economic behavior, Austrian School economists argue that they are a flawed, unreliable, and insufficient means of analyzing economic behavior and evaluating economic theories. Instead, they advocate deriving economic theory logically from basic principles of human action, a study called praxeology. Furthermore, whereas experimental research and natural experiments are often used in mainstream economics, Austrians generally hold that testability in economics and precise mathematical modeling of an economic market are virtually impossible. They argue that modeling a market relies on human actors who cannot be placed in a lab setting without altering their would-be actions.So Austrian School believers’ position is, IN FACT, “We are RIGHT. No matter what the data may say, We are RIGHT!! You can’t depend on facts, because whether or not the facts agree with us, We are RIGHT!”
-
#216 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
My God, I swore I’d never post here again, but this thread is so rife with misinformation, distortions, and an utter lack of understanding of Autrian principles that it just sickens me.
In brief summary, Keynesianism is economics for instant, but unsustainable, gratification. Austrianism is economics for delayed, but sustainable, gratification.
Yes, Keynesianims “works.” Insomuch as any temporary “fix” will make things seem better in the short run. In the long run, when the market is eventually forced to correct for all of the inefficiencies, distortions, and useless band-aids that have been heaped upon it and the unsustainability of it all comes unraveled, it just makes the pain that much harder. Austrianism can’t and doesn’t argue that it will “fix” things in the short-term, but the free and open markets it argues for, as well as responsible government and spending, make for a much healthier and prosperous (and sustainable) economy in the long run.
GROG’s general point is right. The social democratic to socialist-leaning economies of these European countries that rely so heavily on bloated (and unsustainable) government spending that there is no way a shift to austerity will solve their problems in the short run. IN FACT, the austerity argument actually says we’re very LIKELY to see a bit of pain in the short run. Pain that will be made up for with a healthy and sustainable economy later on. It’s akin to a binge drinker who’s gone years downing whiskey bottle after whiskey bottle, day after day. He’s getting spots on his liver, his kidney function is questionable, and his body will shut down soon if he doesn’t stop. So a friend intervenes and makes him stop cold turkey, and the hangover is almost unbearable. Does the unbearable hangover mean he should get right back on the sauce? Absolutely not! He needs to grind it out a few days until his body adjusts to not getting heavy doses of alcohol on a regular basis, and hopefully his body will recover after taking such a beating for so long.
Oh, and in many of posts here, the commenter has essentially equated Austrianism with austerity as if those are interchangeable words. That is flat wrong. Yes, Austrianism incorporates a more austere role for government spending, sure, but there is much more to the theory in terms of oversight of the trade of goods and services (markets) and regulation, taxes, trade, etc. than just that, and I see no evidence to suggest these European countries have taken any steps whatsoever to adopt anything close to resembling the rest of the Austrian model.
Shame on Michael Weiss for this article, as this is probably the biggest straw man I’ve ever seen him toss out on this forum. He’s generally way better than that. The twisted arguments the rest of you are making, despite how much they pang me with their depths of disinformation, are not surprising at all.
I saw a comment by GROG mentioning how far left this site has lurched, and I couldn’t agree more. There seem to be complaints about silence from the conservative-leaning side of the aisle, and maybe a little chest-thumping and navel-gazing that you’ve made logical, fact-based points that simply can’t be countered. I propose an alternative hypothesis: the far left swing and double-down on sophistry and misinformation by a number of posters here makes coming around and participating in a little back-and-forth practically unbearable and not worth the time. That’s why I backed away and and going to do my best to stay as far away as possible. Maybe I shouldn’t say “never” again, but there are far better things to do with my time, and life’s to short to waste having a discussion with people who are just going to talk past (or down) to you anyway.
Peace. -
#217 written by shortchain 1 year ago
Michael,
The mule-bait you put out worked.
Mule,
So … you have nothing factual, simply more faith-based BS, to add? I ask because your little screed simply reiterates the “Austrian economics based policies are better” without giving any time frame, any evidence (in fact, it ignores the evidence we have) and doesn’t even say how things will be better, by and by, under those polices.
-
#218 written by Max 1 year ago
Mule,
I note that the sum total of your contribution amounted to “I agree with GROG”.
No data. Just the little about markets, trade and the rest. “I agree with GROG”.
So, I guess the Wiki definition quote I supplied IS correct, as you state that you are a knowledgeable Austrian and that’s the best you can do.
And you DO KNOW, don’t you, that Keynesian theory calls for balanced budgets and debt reduction during good economic times? You DO KNOW, don’t you, that Reagan, Bush I AND Bush II DID NOT do that? And had we followed true Keynesian policies during those administrations, we would have MUCH LESS DEBT than we do today!!(Good to hear from you. Truly.)
-
#219 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“So … you have nothing factual, simply more faith-based BS, to add?“
I doubt you do, but I consider pointing out the fallaciousness of the initial argument (Michael’s) to count for something. That being the insinuation that, A) embracing more austerity automatically equals or is related to the adoption of Austrianism as an over-arching guide for economic policy (hint: you can be very austere with regard to government spending and your economy/markets look nothing like what Austrian proponents suggest), and B) that the social-democratic and socialist-leaning economic models that have prevailed in Europe for decades can somehow be fixed overnight by austere measures.
Accuse me of “faith-based BS” all you want. I’m not here to deliver a thesis on the merits of Austrian Economics, but I can point out the fatal logical flaws and straw men used against it in the original premise. So before I deliver something more than what you deem “faith-based BS,” how ’bout we start with something other than flawed arguments and misinformation? -
#220 written by rgbact 1 year ago
-
#221 written by shortchain 1 year ago
Mule,
As you say, you are ” not here to deliver a thesis on the merits of Austrian Economics” — oddly, nobody ever is. I wonder why? Whatever. Keep the faith, man…
Michael has made it clear that Austrian and austerian are only related by the fact that it’s generally the same people proposing them. So your accusation of straw man is just an indication of poor reading skills.
And as for me, I have nothing but contempt for a purported “economic theory” that doesn’t use statistics. That is true of both Austrian and austerian, so they’re equally ridiculous in my eyes. -
shortchain,
Guilty as charged. I used “Austrian” as much for the somewhat alliterative title as anything else.That said, I don’t object to cuts in government spending, once we have a more robust economy. In fact, I support it.
Where Mule and I differ is mostly what to do when the economy tanks. Austrians believe that economies are essentially recession-proof under a “true” Austrian model.
-
#223 written by mclever 1 year ago
Since any sort of stimulus spending gets categorized as “Keynesian” whether or not it’s actually part of a counter-cyclical strategy, I think it’s fair to categorize any move towards austerity as “Austrian” in a broad brush-strokes way. Obviously, neither stimuli nor austerity is a perfect representation of the respective economic philosophies.
The problem I have with the austerity approach (aside from the obvious and real pain that citizens suffer in the meantime) is that we never reach that promised land of milk and honey where the economy is good and strong. It seems like, every time austerity is embraced, things get tougher–the economy backslides, people lose jobs, and poverty rises–which austerity proponents say is part of the necessary pain of expunging the “bad” economic residue of overspending. I could accept or even embrace that, except that the pain never seems to end until the austerity ends. -
#224 written by mclever 1 year ago
-
#225 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“…oddly, nobody ever is. I wonder why?“
The usual double-standard of this site. Michael’s premise is flawed to begin with because of the factors I point out, and that’s glossed over, yet me not bringing a point-by-point, detailed statistical analysis of what exactly Austrianism is and isn’t and what it can and can’t deliver in what time frame is met with snide derision. I wonder why?
“So your accusation of straw man is just an indication of poor reading skills.“
Makes no difference. He (and others) comes to the conclusion that the push to austerity is bad and/or failed policy because the short-term results don’t look promising. He then stretches the push to austerity to insinuate there has been an adoption of broader Austrian principles to suggest the entire theory is failed. Sort of like…
“austerity is reaping negative economic results — ??? — Austrian Econmics is a failure“
That’s fallacious in so many ways. As I said above, one can be austere and not adopt anything relating to Austrian principles in how the economy and markets operate. In that senes, unless he can demonstrate where these countries are actually adopting an Austrian philosophy of the market (hint: they’re not), then his link of the two is nothing more than equivocation and sophistry. The premisue is flawed and his conclusion invalid.
“And as for me, I have nothing but contempt for a purported “economic theory” that doesn’t use statistics.“
First of all, economists who actually “get it” have contempt for purported economists and non-economists who misuse (or make up) statistics that can’t accurately explain or demonstrate economic phenomena but claim that they can. Second, it’s patently false and a lie to say Austrian theory “doesn’t use statistics.” Many an Austrian academic has done very useful work and research using mathematical tools and models; they’re just honest enough to keep the numbers out of some things (see: praxeology) that can’t be accurately quantified.
” That is true of both Austrian and austerian, so they’re equally ridiculous in my eyes.“
And I’m sure your extensive backgrond, research, and steady in economics has led you to that conclusion. And my extensive background, research, and study in economics has led me to a different one. We can agree to disagree then. -
#226 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“I think it’s fair to categorize any move towards austerity as “Austrian” in a broad brush-strokes way“
No, this is wrong. I’ll repeate again, you can be AUSTERE and not adhere to practically ANYTHING ELSE of the Austrian philosophy. As a consequence, the thought process of…
austerity is causing economic harm — ??? — Austrian Economics repudiated!
…is completely invalid. Period. -
#227 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“The problem I have with the austerity approach (aside from the obvious and real pain that citizens suffer in the meantime) is that we never reach that promised land of milk and honey where the economy is good and strong. It seems like, every time austerity is embraced, things get tougher–the economy backslides, people lose jobs, and poverty rises–which austerity proponents say is part of the necessary pain of expunging the “bad” economic residue of overspending. I could accept or even embrace that, except that the pain never seems to end until the austerity ends.“
It’s no wonder the instant gratification economic theory (Keynesianism) is so wholeheartedly embraced when we’re so entrenched in an instant gratification culture. -
Mule!
Your occasional drive-by … “drivel”
rgbact’s embarrassing/nauseating pander to shilohbuster is duly noted. shilohbuster’s hilarious My God, I swore I’d never post here again aside … taking the lord’s name in vain notwithstanding lol.
>
btw, as always, it’s very hard to determine who is baiting who!
And grog surely appreciates shilohbuster flying in to “try” to assist him! -
#229 written by mclever 1 year ago
Mule,
Note that I carefully said that all stimuli were Keynesian just as much as austerity is Austrian. In other words, only in the broadest of strokes. Just in case you still misunderstand, I agree that Austrian <> austerity, but they are correlated with one another. I think Michael’s use in the article was fair, though the terms have been further conflated in the comment section.
austerity is causing economic harm — ??? — Austrian Economics repudiated!
No. I didn’t say anything about repudiating Austrian Economics. I said (and carefully limited my words to “austerity proponents”) that no matter how long we stick to austerity, the proponents of such measures are always saying that we need to stick to it longer until we see benefits. My question (much like shortchain’s) is: How much longer? 2 years? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? How long must we endure austerity in order to accomplish the economic wonderland that its proponents promise? It’s not about instant gratification, because I’m willing to wait. I just want some idea of how long I’ll be waiting, so I can plan for it better.
In contrast, proponents of Keynesian approaches and other modern economic theorists can use models and mathematics to project timelines and probabilities that we can use to judge the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of their policies. While projections made in January of 2009 were based on initially inaccurate information, the slope of those projections proved relatively accurate in terms of the rate of improvement in the jobs numbers and the relative GDP growth one and two years down the road. That’s the sort of stuff that builds trust with those who want to know something can work longer term.
Have austerity proponents made similar projections? How long will austerity methods take to create the same levels of turnaround? We’re still waiting… -
#230 written by shortchain 1 year ago
-
Mule, I“m glad to see you’re back! (And now I’ll wait for you to deny that you’re back
)In brief summary, Keynesianism is economics for instant, but unsustainable, gratification. Austrianism is economics for delayed, but sustainable, gratification.
The summary is not only brief but also inaccurate. It’s more a “belief” than a “summary.”
Yes, Keynesianims “works.” Insomuch as any temporary “fix” will make things seem better in the short run. In the long run, when the market is eventually forced to correct for all of the inefficiencies, distortions, and useless band-aids that have been heaped upon it and the unsustainability of it all comes unraveled, it just makes the pain that much harder.
Define “short run” and “long run.” If Keynesian ideas work for three to five decades at a time, and if you have to wait for three to five decades before Austrian ideas do any good, I’ll take Keynesian.
Keynesian stimulus ended the Great Depression. We’ve had perhaps a dozen major recessions since then. Keynesian stimulus ended each of them. We had nothing comparable to the Great Depression until we had a series of presidents who did anti-Keynesian things — running big deficits at times other than recessions, and advising austerity when the economy slowed. This resulted in the worst worldwide crash since the Great Depression.
That’s a pretty good track record for Keynesians — not a single Great Depression since the time of Keynes, until we started doing anti-Keynesian things.
Austrianism can’t and doesn’t argue that it will “fix” things in the short-term, but the free and open markets it argues for, as well as responsible government and spending, make for a much healthier and prosperous (and sustainable) economy in the long run.
That is the theory. There are no metrics supporting that theory. “Argues for” is not data.
GROG’s general point is right. The social democratic to socialist-leaning economies of these European countries that rely so heavily on bloated (and unsustainable) government spending that there is no way a shift to austerity will solve their problems in the short run.
Define “bloated,” and provide the metrics and empirical observations that went into the numbers. Define “short run,” and tell us how long it would take, and what measure of spending cutbacks will be needed, to “solve their problems” in the long run. Define “long run.”
IN FACT, the austerity argument actually says we’re very LIKELY to see a bit of pain in the short run. Pain that will be made up for with a healthy and sustainable economy later on.
Define “a bit of pain” and “later on.” Provide some metrics and models (or a place we can see someone else’s metrics and models) to support these definitions.
It’s akin to a binge drinker who’s gone years downing whiskey bottle after whiskey bottle, day after day. He’s getting spots on his liver, his kidney function is questionable, and his body will shut down soon if he doesn’t stop. So a friend intervenes and makes him stop cold turkey, and the hangover is almost unbearable. Does the unbearable hangover mean he should get right back on the sauce? Absolutely not! He needs to grind it out a few days until his body adjusts to not getting heavy doses of alcohol on a regular basis, and hopefully his body will recover after taking such a beating for so long.
Interesting analogy. Provide some empirical data which suggests the analogy is applicable in anything other than a moralistic way.
Thanks for any help you can provide in improving our understanding of Austerianism and Austrianism as things other than religious beliefs.
-
mclever understood where I was going with it. I don’t think austerity is the alpha and omega of Austrian economics, but neither do I consider deficit spending to be the alpha and omega of Keynesian economics. They’re merely elements of a broader set of rules.
Both advocate less government spending during good economic times. Only one advocates it during bad economic times.
-
#233 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“The idea of you bringing a statistical, point-by-point argument is laughable. Thanks. I needed a laugh.“
Then you must’ve been practically hysterical, rolling on the floor with laughter, at the dearth of evidence, statistical or otherwise, in this and other articles linking the recent economic struggles in Europe to an adoption of remedies from the Austrian School of Economics.
This is exactly what happens on Krugman’s blog. He posts fallacious argument after fallacious argument. When he’s called on it, somehow the critics are scapegoated but Krugman never answers for his erroneous methodology and flawed logic. -
#234 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
DC,
Despite numerous opportunities to educate yourself and other teachable moments, you and shortchain have never demonstrated even the most basic understanding of fundamental economic principles — the reckless way you confuse and conflate terminology and ideas is embarrassing - and as such you’re criticisms and questions, while verbose and articulate, are actually quite hollow and I consider each of your opinions irrelevant on the subject.
You have preconceived notions built on faulty logic, and you’ve never shown any willingness to change that. You desperately try and discredit that which you don’t understand and don’t want to understand and will do anything in your linguistic power to link and conflate things through flawed logic that simply don’t belong together to make it seem like you have access to Truth and what is Right and that your ideological opponents are filled with Lies and wallow in what is Wrong. You’re willing to go to any manner of deceit and logical fallacy to make your point. Perhaps another analogy would illuminate my point:
We need to put a nail into a board. There are multiple ways to do it, but the best, most efficient way is with a hammer. You don’t like hammers. You seem to think beating it with a screwdriver is best. You’re committed to the screwdriver as a solution, and no matter what, you want people to know that using a hammer would be a failure. Then someone comes along with a steel pipe to hit the nail. They take a few whacks; it doesn’t look good. Instead of acknowledging that a steel pipe isn’t the best course of action and admitting we still haven’t used a hammer, you try to be slick and convince others (and yourself) that a steel pipe is actually a hammer. And now that the steel pipe has failed to efficiently get the nail into the board, you can stretch that into saying that the hammer has failed to get the nail into the board. Ergo, in your mind, the hammer has failed, even though nothing really like it has even been tried.
You can peddle that junk in front of other ideological hacks who share your distorted view of economics, but to me it’s transparent. I will not engage your logical fallacies and distorted interpretations of economics. They are irrelevant and it’s an exercise in futility. Good day. -
-
We need to put a nail into a board. There are multiple ways to do it, but the best, most efficient way is with a hammer. You don’t like hammers. You seem to think beating it with a screwdriver is best. You’re committed to the screwdriver as a solution, and no matter what, you want people to know that using a hammer would be a failure. Then someone comes along with a steel pipe to hit the nail. They take a few whacks; it doesn’t look good. Instead of acknowledging that a steel pipe isn’t the best course of action and admitting we still haven’t used a hammer, you try to be slick and convince others (and yourself) that a steel pipe is actually a hammer. And now that the steel pipe has failed to efficiently get the nail into the board, you can stretch that into saying that the hammer has failed to get the nail into the board. Ergo, in your mind, the hammer has failed, even though nothing really like it has even been tried.
dc, hitting the nail on the head notwithstanding, suffice it to say shilohbuster is still totally obsessed w/you. But hey, if it keeps him out of trouble, it’s all to the good lol.
-
even though nothing really like it has even been tried.
That’s the point.
The problem I have with your nail / hammer analogy is this — you have not defined, nor described, a “hammer.” You insist it is something other than what we have used, but have offered no evidence that it works.
I will readily admit, in Real Life(tm) we can tell the difference between a hammer and a screw driver or a steel pipe. But the tools you recommend for fixing economies are not as simple as a hammer.It’s a fine analogy — but you have nothing to back it up.
You claim that the tools Keynesians suggest — tools which have actually worked for most of a century — are less useful and effective than the tools you recommend. So you therefore compare the Keynesians tools to a screwdriver trying to drive home a nail. But you have given us absolutely nothing, other than a moral belief, that your tools are better.
I’ve done carpentry. In many cases, screws work far better than nails. If the only fastener you acknowledge is a nail — if that is the only one your faith allows you to use — then of course you look for a hammer. But it may not be the best repair for the job.
And your insistence that you have a hammer, while no one else does — and meanwhile, you refuse to offer any evidence or metrics showing that your entirely theoretical “hammer” (which may actually be made of cardboard) is better. You offer only the belief that it must be so, because using anything else is Bad.
And when pressed, you resort to condescension rather than any sort of studies or data or empirical evidence (though I do appreciate, a lot, that you are remaining polite. Big kudos for that!)
Austrians seem to be contemptuous of “data” and of history, and seem to be interested only in building upon a theory which appears to be based mostly on elevating greed to an absolute moral good. It all seems rather hollow and misanthropic.
-
#238 written by shortchain 1 year ago
-
#239 written by Max 1 year ago
Mule, my friend,
We need to put a nail into a board. There are multiple ways to do it, but the best, most efficient way is with a hammer. You don’t like hammers. You seem to think beating it with a screwdriver is best. You’re committed to the screwdriver as a solution, and no matter what, you want people to know that using a hammer would be a failure.
There is one giant problem with your analogy.
We KNOW what a hammer is most efficiently used to do and do well. As much as we may hope for other tools to do the job, no matter the extent to which we may be attached to the other tools, it is rather easily recognized that they are NOT more efficient than a hammer for driving a nail into a board.
Why?
Because we have tons and TONS of experience with hammers and screwdrivers and steel pipes, and years and YEARS of time to observe the efficiency of each.
The problem? The SAME can NOT be said for the differences between Keynesian and Austrian schools of theory!
Keynesian theory has seen APPLICATION for well over a half century and empirically WORKS! From intentional use during the Great Depression to the unintentional spending during WWII. It WORKS! It continued to do so for the next 40 years post-war, when the massive debt generated during those days was paid down by over 2/3’s! It even worked for the first 2–3 years of the Reagan administration, providing recovery from the 1981–82 recession. But since about 1984–85, except during the Clinton years, the administrations QUIT paying off debt during “fat” years and, instead, ran up MORE debt!
Keynesian POLICY WORKS. We’ve SEEN it work. And we’ve now seen the failure of following that policy between 1985 and 2007, excluding Clinton.
Austrian Theory has not anything like that to provide ANY empirical data. The SMALL amount we have, the austerity during “lean” years in several countries the past 3 years, have nothing positive to show for that limited experiment.
Your general analogy fits.
But the hammer is KEYNESIAN theory.
-
-
#241 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“Thanks for answering my questions. That cleared up a lot. I was pretty sure the economic theories of the Austerians and the Austrians had as much depth as the detail of your answers implied, and I was not disappointed. Thanks again.“
Sorry, but your vacuous attempt at condescending sarcasm doesn’t mask your willful ignorance of economic theory and principles. -
#242 written by Max 1 year ago
-
#243 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“Michael has many times provided a lot of statistics and good analysis.“
Yes, “many times” he has. But not THIS time. And that’s all I’m here to talk about this thread. It’s hard enough keeping everything straight in the argument du jour and who has or hasn’t made valid points and defended it with evidence, much less resurrecting previous ones. So kudos to Michael for that, but I’m not going to sit idly by and let this stand as one of those times to be applauded as making a sound conclusion with “a lot of statistics” and “good analysis” when his (and many of yours) point has amounted to nothing more than:
Europeans are adopting austerity measures and economic indicators don’t look good — ??? — Austrian Economics repudiated!
As I said above and will repeat again for those who keep trying to ignore the inconvenient truth, you can be austere and NOT have ANYTHING to do with Austrian economic philosophy or principles. A steel pipe is not a hammer.
“You, on the other hand, have tried to get by on your personality.“
This is the kind of insult you commonly see from someone who doesn’t really have a clue what they’re talking about but sure wants to act like it. As prolific a blogger as Krugman is, I’m sure he’s got another post that you can go lap up…go ahead, boy, you can do it. He can tell you what to say and think.
-
#244 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
I love how people refer back to the Great Depression and the transition from Hoover to FDR to point to the “failures of austerity” (under Hoover) and “success of Keynesianism” (under FDR). A Big Lie perpetuated by many mainstream pundits and especially Krugman. But what does the evidence say?
http://mises.org/daily/4350
Or…
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1961727
As president, he doubled federal spending in real terms in four years. He also used government to prop up wages, restricted immigration, signed the Smoot-Hawley tariff, raised taxes, and created the Reconstruction Finance Corporation — all interventionist measures and not laissez faire. Unlike many Democrats today, President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s advisers knew that Hoover had started the New Deal. One of them wrote, “When we all burst into Washington…we found every essential idea [of the New Deal] enacted in the 100-day Congress in the Hoover administration itself.” -
“You, on the other hand, have tried to get by on your personality.“
This is the kind of insult you commonly see from someone who doesn’t really have a clue what they’re talking about …Indeed!
-
#246 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
Keynesianism is, again, economics of instant gratification. The object is to make sure GDP1 is larger than GDP0, GDP2 is larger than GDP1, and so forth. So when that doesn’t happen, it becomes real simple math.
Since we know GDP = C + I + G + (netX) — where C is consumption, I is investment, G is government spending, and netX is net exports — the easiest thing to tinker with is G. So damn the torpedoes and crank G up, never mind any underlying issues that might cause, because a larger G, all else constant, will get us larger GDP, and that’s all we care about. The problem is that each time GDP is jacked up by artificial measures, it puts one more chink in the armor and calls the soundness of our currency and our debt into question. We’ve gotten by doing this for years, but I’m not arrogant enough to think we can continue doing it forever. Funny how it’s generally the Left decrying supposed nationalism, nativism, and similar kinds of arrogance out among Conservatives, but they’re the ones with the unbridled hubris — and I can only assume a certain twisted kind of nationalism as well — to think that we can participate in a global economy yet do whatever the hell we feel like with our currency and debt without repercussions. I’m confident, borderline cocky, but I’m not stupid, and that’s effing stupid. -
Mule,
I love how people refer back to the Great Depression and the transition from Hoover to FDR to point to the “failures of austerity” (under Hoover) and “success of Keynesianism” (under FDR). A Big Lie perpetuated by many mainstream pundits and especially Krugman. But what does the evidence say?
Smoot-Hawley is likely responsible for the bulk of the damage done under Hoover, but per-capita growth in government spending was signficiantly overwhelmed by per-capita shrinkage in private GDP. From 1930 to 1933, the average private inflation-adjusted per-capita GDP change was –10%, peaking at –15% in 1932. Compare that to the average of –3% in the Great Recession.
In the most recent case, per-capita inflation-adjusted government spending grew by an average of 7% (that is, more than double the rate of the average drop in private GDP). In contrast, that same level of counterbalance wasn’t achieved until 1931, after far more damage had been done to the economy from an entire year of government spending growth being half the rate of private GDP shrinkage.
Might Hoover been able to do the job, had he been able to keep his? Possibly. And I agree that both Hoover and FDR have been caricatured over time (as happens to pretty much all historical figures). But that doesn’t mean that Hoover did all the right stuff, and FDR merely got credit for it.
-
Mule,
Keynesianism is, again, economics of instant gratification.
Speaking of caricatures…
It’s not at all about instant gratification. It’s about taking a proactive approach to counter economic porpoising. Max is particularly familiar with the concept of porpoising, given his background in aviation…and it’s likely that this particular analogy will also help him recognize the importance of both proper magnitude and timing. Many Austrians believe that it is impossible to properly time the counter effects (not sure if you fall into this category, Mule). Having been behind the yoke quite a bit myself, I disagree that it’s impossible, though I suspect that it’s more difficult than many believe.
Regardless, none of that has anything to do with instant gratification.
Since we know GDP = C + I + G + (netX) — where C is consumption, I is investment, G is government spending, and netX is net exports — the easiest thing to tinker with is G. So damn the torpedoes and crank G up, never mind any underlying issues that might cause, because a larger G, all else constant, will get us larger GDP, and that’s all we care about.
Perhaps some people look at it that way. But I don’t. The problem with looking at an equation such as GDP = C + I + G + (netX) is that it implies that C, I, G, and netX are independent variables. They’re not. C and I can themselves be viewed as equations of which G is a dependent variable. And, to some degree, G has C and I as dependent variables as well.
-
#249 written by dawolf 1 year ago
@Mule Rider
“You have preconceived notions built on faulty logic, and you’ve never shown any willingness to change that. You desperately try and discredit that which you don’t understand and don’t want to understand and will do anything in your linguistic power to link and conflate things through flawed logic that simply don’t belong together to make it seem like you have access to Truth and what is Right and that your ideological opponents are filled with Lies and wallow in what is Wrong. You’re willing to go to any manner of deceit and logical fallacy to make your point.”You are accusing other people of doing this?
-
#250 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
Make up your mind. Did the recovery begin already by summer of 2009? Or are still as bad off (maybe worse) as we were when President Obama took office? You’ve made both claims. You made both claims in the last comment, for crissake! Make up your mind and make a coherent argument.
Can you not comprehend that GDP is not THE ONLY economic indictor? You can trumpet about how great the economy is because GDP started recovering in the summer of 2009 all you want, but people can’t find jobs. Time has expired on the lagging indicator argument. People are giving up. The Obama economy is not producing encough jobs to keep up with population growth.
GROG: You claim Austrian economics has failed in Europe after 2 years,
DC: So have you.You’re joking, right? You cannot be serious. How many times do I have to say that Austrian economics has not even taken place in Europe, therefore it cannot have failed in Europe?
Make. Up. Your. Mind.
Are we in a “steady climb” because we did “basically” nothing before August of 2009?
Or are we still suffering, suffering, suffering, as bad as when Obama “took office,” because nothing has gotten a bit better at all since then?
Both arguments are nonsense, as has been repeatedly shown to you, yet you trot out the first when we dispute the second, and the second when we dispute the first, and you refuse to acknowledge any of the facts or evidence that is presented in dispute of both.Again, you lack the simple understanding that more is involved in economic recovery than some GDP growth.
-
Keynesianism is, again, economics of instant gratification.
You go to the doctor with a broken leg. He sets it quickly. Is that “instant gratification”?
Would you prefer: “We don’t have to stop the bleeding. It’ll heal itself eventually. Don’t worry about that ragged bone poking through the skin. Far better to let it take its natural course, even if there’s a bit of pain in the short term. Three months in a cast would be bad for you. All these interventions just make your body weaker.”
(Analogies are useful, aren’t they?)
Since we know GDP = C + I + G + (netX) — where C is consumption, I is investment, G is government spending, and netX is net exports — the easiest thing to tinker with is G.
If the paragraph I took this from provided an accurate picture of your understanding of Keynesian theory and its goals, then your understanding of it is woefully limited.
On the question of Hoover vs Roosevelt, I’m not all that concerned about who began the programs that worked. More important for the current discussion is that they worked, and they were Keynesian.
-
#252 written by Max 1 year ago
Max is particularly familiar with the concept of porpoising, given his background in aviation…
Before I got the ASEL rating, I already had my LTA certificate. Balloons, because of the tremendous mass, have significant amounts of inertia. The only control input one has with a balloon is power. Because of that inertia, a control input has a delay of 5 or more SECONDS between initiation and response. Imagine driving your car with a several second delay from turning the steering wheel or stepping on the gas or brake, to the car responding. (All if which is only tangential to Michael’s point of porpoising.)
For those of you who don’t know what the hell we’re talking about:
Flying straight and level, the plane is trimmed and powered in a certain attitude and, without some change in input will continue to fly straight and level.
You add power, nothing else, the plane speeds up. But the increased speed causes airflow over the wing to increase which increases lift, the plane ascends to a higher altitude. It also, with the climb, begins to slow down, which decreases the airflow over the wing, decreasing lift, so it begins to descend. Remember, we are doing nothing else to the controls. The plane, descending, speed up again, so it begins to ascend again. This process continues in ever decreasing arcs (porpoising) until it reaches a new state of equilibrium at a somewhat higher altitude and speed than original. You are flying straight and level again.The porpoising is inherent in every aircraft design and part of the design factor is building it to minimize the number of those arcs.
One will NOT make one input change alone, but will add others to reach that equilibrium desired. If all you wanted to do was, say, increase speed, you would keep the nose down with elevators. When you reached the speed desired, you would then adjust the trim on the elevators to keep the nose in the level position so you no longer have to hold it down with the yoke. You are now flying straight and level, same altitude, higher speed.
IMHO, Austrians do not want, or only in a VERY limited way, the government to have the ability to trim the plane, er, economy, or add additional inputs to prevent to porpoising that will occur when the plane, er, economy, begins to get out of kilter due to an initial change in it’s inputs. Leave it alone and eventually it will reach an equilibrium. No matter the wildness of the swings, or the harm done to people, of that porpoising. Keynesians want to have the ability to minimize those swings and get the plane, er, economy, back to equilibrium sooner rather than later.
More than you wanted to know. Blame Michael, he started it!
-
#253 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“You are accusing other people of doing this?“
I don’t utter that accusation blithely. But when my academic background - including a graduate degree - and career is in the field of economics is as an analyst and consultant, and I’m talking to someone whose academic background and career is NOT in the field of economics and they insist on relentlessly spewing misinformed talking points and hollow caricatures of economic theory and principles, then yes, I have no problem calling them out for being an entrenched dogmatist whose beliefs are built on a faulty premise, and I’ll stand by that accusation every day of the week. Notice the (usually) gentler tone with someone as experienced in studying economic data as Michael or someone who is slightly less-informed but at least more circumspect in mclever. We still come to generally different conclusions but can respectfully disagree — without me feeling the need to call them misinformed ideological hacks — because they either A) put forth more time and effort explaining where they come from (and not just talking points) and/or B) don’t have the hubris it takes to pretend they have a monopoly on economic wisdom. I can appreciate someone like Michael who, despite all of his detailed statistical work, still hedges with something akin to, “Just not sure how it’ll work exactly or if it will at all, but it should though it possibly won’t” whereas someone like DC, who brings nothing more than regurgitated talking points to the table and gross caricatures of other schools of economic thought, has the gall to dogmatically proclaim something akin to, “The debate is settled! All other schools of economic thought need to STFU and let Keynesianism save the day.”
That doesn’t fly with me.
-
#254 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“But that doesn’t mean that Hoover did all the right stuff, and FDR merely got credit for it.“
Of course not. And I surely don’t want to insinuate that (Hoover was doing the right things but FDR got the credit). The point is how that era has been distorted in modern times. The point is that Hoover was every bit the interventionist FDR was, and interventionism was in place well before FDR was in office and wasn’t helping. The point was also to debunk the myth of Hoover as a non-interventionist so as to scapegoat non-interventionism. People (like our uninformed DC) look back to that era and come up with something like,
“Hoover did nothing — ??? — Austrian Economics repudiated!!“
Never mind that the whole “Hoover did nothing” is a Big Lie, and insiniuating that somehow invalidates Austrian economic principles is an even bigger one.
“The problem with looking at an equation such as GDP = C + I + G + (netX) is that it implies that C, I, G, and netX are independent variables. They’re not. C and I can themselves be viewed as equations of which G is a dependent variable. And, to some degree, G has C and I as dependent variables as well.“
I understand the Keynesian/your position on the interrelationship of G, C, and I and agree on many levels; my issue is the underlying damage done to our currency through debt issuance, and I think that’s where we part ways. You believe we can tinker with G in a smart enough way to stiumulate C and I and not do long-term damage to our currency; I don’t believe G can be properly/smartly tinkered with to stiumulate C and I without negative long-term consequences. -
… interventionist measures …
I’ve been thinking about this term. It strikes me as a bit of Orwellian manipulation.
The implication is that the economy is owned by those rich industrialists and investors, and that when We the People decide to take some large-scale action, we are “intervening,” “interfering” in the “proper function” of the “free market.”
I reject the notion that that our nation should be owned by wealthy élites, and that the public “interferes” with the activities of those brilliant and all-wise Captains of Industry.
No. The country is ours. It belongs to We the People. We allow business people to operate here, for our benefit.
I’m sure they do find regulation to be “restrictive” and “interfering.” Burglars don’t like my alarm systems or my safe, and they sure don’t like the laws that make their activities illegal. I’m certain Bernie Madoff hates the laws against Ponzi schemes. Too bad for them.
Public spending is not “interventionist measures.” Public spending is We the People taking the actions that We want with Our country and Our money. In the case of stimulus spending, We are not “interfering” or “intervening,” except in the way that taking an antibiotic is “interfering” with an illness, or rebuilding your home after an earthquake is “intervening” in the “natural” course of events.
What Austrians mean by “let the market correct itself” is, “let those brilliant and all-wise Captains of Industry take advantage of your misfortune, and continue to make money in their own way off your pain and suffering.”
I don’t blame the industrialists and investors. They just do what they do, like locusts. It’s not their job to be concerned about We the People. It’s their job to make a profit, for themselves and for stockholders. It’s Our job to be vigilant and to apply the necessary corrections to the Ship of State, and to insure that needed safety precautions are taken.
We are not “interfering” or taking “interventionist measures.” We are exercising democracy, and deciding on the course of Our nation.
-
#256 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“You are accusing other people of doing this?“
And what’s up with these little BS, pot-shot one-liners that guys like dawolf and shortchain hurl? At least DC and Max, misinformed as I feel their positions are, are willing to wax poetic about where they stand, either through analogies or some other interpretation based on their understanding of markets and the economy.
But I admit to being puzzled by those little one-liner jabs. Michael initiated this discussion with his article, and there have been numerous comments that have followed. I pointed out what I believed was a faulty premise in Michael’s piece and in subsequent comments that were in agreement, that being that we’ve only seen the beginning of a move to austerity in Europe (and absolultely nothing else resemlbing the Austrian platform) after decades of entrenchment in social-democratic policies with quasi-socialist economies. “Austerity” is being set up as a proxy for “Austrianism” by you guys and unfairly hailed as a magical elixir, so that when it doesn’t fix all of Europe’s ills overnight, you can piss all over it and declare that Austrian Economics has failed. For the umpteenth time, austerity doesn’t necessarily mean Austrian, and the time frame we’re looking at is far too short to glean anything meaningful when their entire economy has been entrenched in something completely antithetical to austerity for decades.The point being, either make an effort to challenge my critique and point out where it’s wrong or keep your freaking mouth shut. The little jabs of “the idea of you doing actual statistical/detailed analysis is laughable” and “you try and get by on your personality” and “and you’re not ideological and an economic dogmatist too?” only adds to the perception that many of you aren’t interested in the least bit in something resembling an honest discussion and are just looking for another opportunity to talk past (or very likely down to) me.
That’s why I’m more likely to go into hiding and not come back for long stretches now. Seriously, it’s just not worth the effort.
-
“The debate is settled! All other schools of economic thought need to STFU and let Keynesianism save the day.”
It’s interesting that you accuse me of this, since I’ve repeatedly said that no single economic theory has a monopoly on The Truth, and that any reasonable economic decisions have to adjust to current conditions and take bits from every available theory.
-
#258 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“No. The country is ours. It belongs to We the People. We allow business people to operate here, for our benefit.“
What you don’t understand is that Austrian principles are built on empowering “We the People” more, NOT the vultures of government or big business. You continue to equate Austrianism with Republicanism/Trickle-Down/Crony Capitalism, and THAT IS A FALSE EQUIVALENCE. If you took 30 minutes reading Austrian/libertarian economic literature, you would see that there’s nearly as much contempt for Republican economic policies as there has been for Democratic initiatives. But you don’t want to find that because you want an excuse to be able to continue denouncing something that you don’t like/trust/understand.
“Public spending is We the People taking the actions that We want with Our country and Our money.“
Hardly. It’s elected bureaucrats making the decision. It’s always some factor likee 10,000 deciding to do with the resources of 10,000,000 or even 100,000,000 million. I trust the 100,000,000 million far more acting in their individual self-interest to give us an efficient market outcome where everybody’s happy and has an improving standard of living than to let a group representing less than 1% of us make that decision. Oh, they won’t get it completely wrong — which is a fallacy that I think some libertarians perpetuate — but they’ll get it less right (or less efficiently) than individual decision-making.
“What Austrians mean by “let the market correct itself” is, “let those brilliant and all-wise Captains of Industry take advantage of your misfortune, and continue to make money in their own way off your pain and suffering.“
This is as misinformed as it gets, although in a roundabout way, you are right. Austrianism isn’t about people taking advantage of one another, but it is a philosophy of personal responsibility. And if you borrow more money (perhaps for a new home or new car) that you can’t pay back, that mistake isn’t washed away by some government act. You give up the new home or new car and go live in a cheaper apartment and drive an older model vehicle. Your brand of economics gives people the leeway to make those mistakes, time and time again, and keep coming back to the rest of us for more and more money to cover up the compounding mistakes. -
#259 written by Max 1 year ago
Mule,
You rail against “one-liners”, yet I have posted at least two recent comments with in-depth analysis and analogies, not assigning austerity to Austrianism, and you fail to offer counter examples.
You rail against “short-term” fixes. But a man out of work for a couple years, facing foreclosure, mounting bills and feeding his family is in no position for a long term solution that may or may not work. And you fail to even attempt to mention (nor has GROG) WHAT kind of timeline would be a realistic expectation.
You ignore the FACT that Keynesian policy HAS WORKED for 4 generations and the failure over the past 30 years to follow the Keynesian notion of paying off debt created during counter-cyclical stimulus during the intervening years is a major contributor to the current crisis. Please give an Austrian response to that empirical FACT.
We HAD a long period of de facto Austrianism. It was everything prior to, roughly, 1930. Small government. Little, if any, intervention. Answer please the benefits that this country incurred during that period. The implementation of Keynesian policy since that time was a response to the dissatisfaction of the results of that long term “experiment”. We the People demanded more from the social contract we have with one another (that IS government here, in spite of the rw rant) such that we did not have to suffer the depths and short cycle of recessions and Panics.
Like it, hate it, or don’t give a shit, We the People of, not just America, but of MOST EVERY Western industrial country have rejected Austrianism for Keynesism. What do you want? A world dictator to implement it AGAINST the will of We the People?
I am writing this begging you to give us a reasoned discourse in Austrianism and giving effective counter examples to the known data that tends to promote the Keynesian policy. Play the professor to a roomful of interested students. If you can’t do that, just say so. If you won’t do that, or if all you want to do is respond with denigrations, then just STFU! -
#260 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“It’s interesting that you accuse me of this, since I’ve repeatedly said that no single economic theory has a monopoly on The Truth, and that any reasonable economic decisions have to adjust to current conditions and take bits from every available theory.“
Yeah, I’ve seen you make that claim a few times, I’m assuming because it makes you feel good to put up the façade of open-mindedness that liberals are supposed to have…but your rhetoric is inconsistent. While you occasinally, in a broad strokes way, suggest no economic theory has a “monopoly on Truth,” when you actually provide detailed answers of what you believe and how an economy should operate, you almost universally use statements like “Keynesianism is a paroven success,” “we know government intervention works,” etc. and then counter that with “we know the ‘free market’ is a bunch of hooey to fix anything,” “non-interventionism just leads to pain and suffering,” “Austrian Economics is full of failed ideas,” etc.
You were on GROG’s ass about consistency. Get some of your own. Either stand by your most recent (and inclusive) claim and give a little love to Austrianism and more free market economics or stand by your pro-Keynesian/government/interventionism claims and anti-Austrian/free market/non-interventionism claims and stop pretending you’re so open-minded. -
What you don’t understand is that Austrian principles are built on empowering “We the People” more, NOT the vultures of government or big business
No, I do understand that. The basic problem with that argument is that it pretends :the government” is something other than “We the People.”
If we lived in a plutocracy or an oligarchy or a monarchy, you’d have a better argument. But we don’t. The false notion that We don’t govern ourselves — that we are, instead, ruled by a Government Élite whose interests are opposed to ours — is dangerous and disempowering.
I understand that you see Austrian philosophy as something that promotes the individual. The problems with this is that sometimes (as in my examples of buglers or Bernie Madoff) the “individual” needs to be reined in.
I’m all for individual freedom, which sometimes needs the power of a representative government to protect and promote it. There are times when a sinking economy is an actual harm to individual liberty.
I don’t agree with your concept that helping the least of us somehow is a violation of individual freedom, or is dismpowering for the individual. Perhaps that’s part of where our basic differences lie.
-
#262 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“Answer please the benefits that this country incurred during that period. “
See what happened to our standard of living from the late-1700s until the early 1900s, how we went from being a newborn country to a burgeoning industrial power in just over a century, despite the growing pains of conquering and expanding into new territory (though that opens a whole ‘nother ethical can of worms) and a bloody internal conflict. That’s not an argument you want to make, in my opinion. -
#263 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“Like it, hate it, or don’t give a shit, We the People of, not just America, but of MOST EVERY Western industrial country have rejected Austrianism for Keynesism. What do you want? A world dictator to implement it AGAINST the will of We the People?“
No, I want the 100,000,000 to have more say of their economic destiny than the ostensible efforts to “help” We the People by 10,000 elected officials.
And just because the majority of accepted Keynesiamism (so you assert) doesn’t mean it’s right. As I said above, it’s the economics of instant gratification, pretty popular in our modern culture. World peace and free health care poll well too. But ALL debts get paid…EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. Eventually. We can patch things up and kick the can down the road, but this embrace of “instant gratification economics” will eventually lead to a crippling debt load that will invariably damage our standard of living. No doubt in my mind. -
#264 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“ruled by a Government Élite whose interests are opposed to ours — is dangerous and disempowering.“
Never more have you seemed so out of touch. I know for a fact that Obama, Biden, Boehnor, etc. etc. etc. have interests that are vastly different than my own. But I’m glad you’ve got so much blind faith in the altruism and goodwill of your fellow man, especially those in elected positions of authority. Kinda ironic I’m the one lambasted as having “blind faith in the market” when all I’m asking for is better and more thorough representation of The People acting in their own self-interest by participating in the economy yet it’s you and your ilk that has “blind faith in the Chosen Few” to do the heavy lifting for us. -
#265 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“I don’t agree with your concept that helping the least of us somehow is a violation of individual freedom, or is dismpowering for the individual. Perhaps that’s part of where our basic differences lie.“
And nowhere did I suggest that “helping the least of us” somehow is a violation of individual freedome. Thanks for yet another lie and gross caricature of my position. You never disappoint. -
-
#267 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
That does it for me on this thread and probably this site for a little while again. Feel free to post more if you’d like, but just know I’m done participating in this particular conversation. Head off any panties getting in a wad for “not answering my question.“
Don’t like it? Tough shit. I have no oblication to continue to engage in pointless banter on an internet forum with strangers. We’ve all made our points. We all know roughly where each other stands, even if it is a slight misrepresentation to make ourselves look better and the other guy look bad.
Nothing more to see here, as far as I’m concerned. Peace out. -
I know for a fact that Obama, Biden, Boehnor, etc. etc. etc. have interests that are vastly different than my own.
Then vote them out of office and elect someone else.
I know for a fact that most of the Captains of Industry have interests that are opposed to mine, but I have no power to vote them out of office.
-
#269 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“Then vote them out of office and elect someone else.“
Doesn’t matter. There will always be someone there that doesn’t have my best interests in mind. That’s why I want to limit the power and sphere of influence of government, no matter who is in office.
“I know for a fact that most of the Captains of Industry have interests that are opposed to mine…“
Something we agree on! Glad you see it my way. That’s why the Austrian/my position is to give more power to the individual to participate in the economy and NOT the barons of Big Business and Industry to exert even more control over our lives. I knew you’d come around eventually! -
-
-
-
#273 written by shortchain 1 year ago
It occurs to me that, if the austerians have their way, and the inequality that has been fueled by the rise of Austrian economics principles (no, GROG, I’m not saying they’ve been followed 100 percent, or even 50 percent) continues the way it has the last 30 years, we will, in another few decades, have a situation where 95 percent of all assets will be owned by a very tiny percentage of people.
And then the Austrians will have a point, because when only .01 of one percent of the population has all the money, statistics will no longer work as well, and economic trends will be driven by how the movers and shakers feel when they wake up in the morning.
And the rest of us will be totally free — in the sense of free to work for the wealthy or starve.
-
DC,
The country is ours. It belongs to We the People.
You bring this up an awful lot, typically as justification for following the majority’s interests. But you know as well as I do that the majority doesn’t rule this country, and never has. Our Constitution forbids it in several respects.
Perhaps the US government should represent the people, but it doesn’t. And it never has, for reasons sufficiently numerous that I have on my list of future articles an entire series on the topic.
What this means is that, when you trot out “the country belongs to We the People”, it is reminiscent of many jingoistic chestnuts of American mythology that bear no relation to reality (e.g., George Washington and the cherry tree).
-
Mule,
Austrianism isn’t about people taking advantage of one another, but it is a philosophy of personal responsibility.
And from a purely microeconomic perspective that works…most of the time. For example:
if you borrow more money (perhaps for a new home or new car) that you can’t pay back, that mistake isn’t washed away by some government act. You give up the new home or new car and go live in a cheaper apartment and drive an older model vehicle.
It’s possible (and, for many centuries, common) for a person to be able to get themselves into a hole that is literally impossible to get out of. The “brilliant” solution for much of that time was to throw those people into prison, where they were guaranteed to never be able to pay the debt. The creditors were worse off, as were the debtors. Eventually, we evolved a system of bankruptcy (a term that has nothing to do with banks, BTW; it came from Italian, in reference to the literal breaking up of the bench upon which a businessman negotiated deals) as a means of stopping one form of a fiscal death spiral.
Your brand of economics gives people the leeway to make those mistakes, time and time again, and keep coming back to the rest of us for more and more money to cover up the compounding mistakes.
Just as you point out DC’s misrepresentation of Austrian economic theory, I’ll point out your misrepresentation of Keynesian countercyclical economic theory. Bailing out bad business decisions is not part of Keynesian countercyclical economy theory.
That said, the “leave everything alone to settle out and it will be fine” part of the Austrian model assumes that the only people who get hurt when someone can’t pay their bills are the two parties directly involved in the transaction. This is why I said that the Austrian model works (most of the time) from a micro view. From a macro view, sufficiently concentrated economic activity can have substantial impact on other parties who merely have the misfortune of being too close to the exploding grenade.
As just one example, there are plenty of people who did everything right in terms of buying a house, but had enough people around them who didn’t that they suddenly found themselves underwater. And that might have been fine, if they didn’t also lose their jobs. Ordinarily, losing one’s job would simply mean selling the house and downsizing…but these people couldn’t sell their houses, because they were forced to pay money they didn’t have in order to sell the house that they no longer could afford because of unforeseen circumstances.
It ain’t as simple as Austrians seem to want to believe.
-
shortchain,
And then the Austrians will have a point, because when only .01 of one percent of the population has all the money, statistics will no longer work as well, and economic trends will be driven by how the movers and shakers feel when they wake up in the morning.
A touch melodramatic, are we?
-
-
#278 written by shortchain 1 year ago
-
-
#280 written by Max 1 year ago
Michael,
What this means is that, when you trot out “the country belongs to We the People”, it is reminiscent of many jingoistic chestnuts of American mythology that bear no relation to reality
We shall have to disagree in your analysis. True, this is not a democracy where majority rules. It was not set up that way. But We the People, IN THE AGGREGATE, do rule and always have. Tides always ebb and flow and political power does as well. There will always be groups that wield enough power to have more than their share.
Which is why, after a century of the republican form being dominated to a greater extent by the grass roots, the Citizens United decision has been looked upon with dread by those who wish NOT to return to the days of the late 1800’s and first few years of the 19th century, where corporations wielded more than their share of power.
Beyond that, when I use the term, and I’m sure dc as well, I am speaking in terms of the fact that OUR government is not the nominal-only as, say, Russia. -
Max,
But We the People, IN THE AGGREGATE, do rule and always have.
Not so. We get closer than most other nations, but there’s more mythology than reality behind it. When our nation started out, it was almost entirely white, male landowners that got to make the decisions. Sure, they did so in aggregate, which was an improvement over the even smaller groups of people who ran the show in other countries. But that is hardly rule by everyone.
Beyond that, when I use the term, and I’m sure dc as well, I am speaking in terms of the fact that OUR government is not the nominal-only as, say, Russia.
OK, fine…we’re not Russia. Talk about damning with faint praise.
-
You bring this up an awful lot, typically as justification for following the majority’s interests.
Nope. That’s not why I remind people of this fact. You’re right, we don’t always have majority rule, and we shouldn’t. (For example, “the majority” should never get to vote on minority rights.)
No, I remind people of this, not because of “majority rule,” but because we are a democracy (actually, a representative democratic republic). The constitution was established by the people, not by a king or a corporatocrasy or a religious institution.
The point of the United States is to have the people rule it. That doesn’t always mean “majority rule.” That’s we have a system of unelected federal courts. Majority should NOT always rule.
However, all our officials are taken from The People, and any citizen can legally occupy any position in government. There are no legal barriers to participation or to exercise of power. We are the government. We govern ourselves.
What this means is that, when you trot out “the country belongs to We the People”, it is reminiscent of many jingoistic chestnuts of American mythology that bear no relation to reality (e.g., George Washington and the cherry tree).
Actually, I “trot it out” specifically to condemn that sort of jingoism, and to remind the far right that they don’t have a monopoly on patriotism. Far from it; their anti-gubmint faux populism denies the very substance of what America is for.
-
#283 written by GROG 1 year ago
Mule,
The point being, either make an effort to challenge my critique and point out where it’s wrong or keep your freaking mouth shut. The little jabs of “the idea of you doing actual statistical/detailed analysis is laughable” and “you try and get by on your personality” and “and you’re not ideological and an economic dogmatist too?” only adds to the perception that many of you aren’t interested in the least bit in something resembling an honest discussion and are just looking for another opportunity to talk past (or very likely down to) me.
Be aware of what most of this forum consists of. Save for a few, it consists of a group of commenters who are more interested in patting each other on the head telling each other how smart they are and how watertight their arguments and ideologies are, then they are about truly debating and trying to understand their opponents positions. They are here for reassurance from one another. And they get that by the head patting, the group hugs, and the group ridicule of those with whom they disagree.
And all that disrupts and clouds what could be solid and interesting debate. It’s a shame. -
… and by the way, to the extent that we fall short of our ideal –that America’s is a government of the people, by the people, and for the people — we need to be reminded that this is, indeed, the goal and the purpose.
We didn’t start out very egalitarian. A coterie of white male landowners were the voters and the officials. Increasingly, as the decades have passed, We’ve realized that this is, indeed, short of the goals we set for ourselves when “We the People” created the Constitution.Minorities and women can now vote (at least, until Republicans succeed in their voter suppression efforts).
America is the first time in the history of the world that a group of people sat down and said, “We are going to create a nation, and we are going to start by writing down the rules under which it will operate.” It was a momentous thing — the idea that The People could rule themselves. No government on earth at the time thought that was possible. No government on earth operated that way.
At least, no modern government. A few small tribal governments did. But not a single modern nation did, and very few even thought it possible.
It offends me to my core that American conservatives today not only deny that We govern Ourselves, but insist We shouldn’t even try — and then have the gall to claim to love America. It’s absurdity on the hoof.
And Michael, you can tell that my reminders strike home, because I tend to piss off those “small gubmint conservatives” when I remind them that, in America, We are the government, and the government is Us.
Regardless of what he intended it to be, the anti-government jingoism of Ronald Reagan was about as anti-American as you can get. Setting up an antagonism and artificial division between “the people” and “the government” is like intentionally infecting someone with an auto-immune disorder.
We need to remember what America is for.
-
grog
The amount of debate that occurs here, especially on fiscal matters is kinda unique. Again, the other blog I frequent is 90⁄10 conservative and there is no actual debate on any substantive political issue. Just 95 to 100% derision by cons of the few liberals who frequent the blog, mainly to do w/mittens and Obama.
The blog mistress is especially amusing as she’s been totally in favor of gay marriage since 2004 and yet, is smitten w/mittens and has to kowtow to her majority conservative flock so as I have mentioned previously, all the threads are pro Romney and anti Obama. And she voted for Obama in 2008 lol. Hey she caters to her audience, much like Limbaugh/Drudge/fixednoise, etc.
and so it goes …
>
And it goes w/out saying someone like shilohbuster would have been banned instantaneously at 538.com (4) years ago if Nate had rules and regulations and required membership. Indeed, his and this site was/is quite liberal.
And shocking that libs and cons don’t agree about much of anything at political blogs as maybe grog should alert the media!
-
DC,
any citizen can legally occupy any position in government. There are no legal barriers to participation or to exercise of power.
The same is true of Russia. What matters isn’t de jure, but rather de facto. What we have is, in the words of Benjamin Franklin, “a Republic, if you can keep it.”
The government should, perhaps, be us, and vice versa. But it isn’t. A government that is us doesn’t spy on us without our knowledge. Nor does it need to whisk us away to untold locations and perform unspeakable acts upon us without due process. Nor does it actively work to undermine the election processes that determine who represents us. Nor does it willfully lie to us about what it is doing, what decisions it has made, what data are used to determine the decisions being made, or the validity of the data being used.
-
#287 written by Max 1 year ago
-
#288 written by shortchain 1 year ago
Adding to what Max and Michael have said, I spent a lot of time around Chicago and in Indiana. I never thought Chicago was governed by a notably democratic (although quite Democratic) process. And as for Indiana — I was there when Dan Quayle bought his first seat in the House. He outspent his opponent by a huge factor (it is rumored that this came from his wealthy family — back in those days, there wasn’t a requirement to disclose donors).
Single-party rule is more and more the norm in various localities, up to and including whole states, in these United States. And single-party rule is not a sustainably democratic form of politics.
-
I find it amusing that I’m often accused of being the most leftist of Logarchism’s partners. Yet I don’t join the far– left “disappointment” meme.
I’m a pragmatist, and actually rather centrist. I have little patience for pundidiots on either end. I’m just not Politically Correct when it comes to language or expression, which makes me sound far more extremist than I am.
So no, I don’t buy the meme that Obama is supporting secret spying and secret prisons. He’s dismantled a lot of the Bush-era KGB tactics. Until I see an innocent person whisked away, I’m not getting paranoid over our improved environment.
-
#291 written by Max 1 year ago
While I am EXTREMELY politically correct and always try to couch my language in terms that should not offend. SHAME on the rest of you! Especially mclever!
I DO believe in the ideals outlined (note “outlined”) by our Founders. And while the truth is that, at the time of the Declaration and the Constitution, every person was not included in the full benefits of citizenship, the general arc of American history ever since has been to rectify that. Slowly and in fits and starts, similar to evolution itself, but a history of increasing inclusion.
And unlike many on BOTH sides, I do my best to accept the entire Constitution. From the Preamble to the single paragraph of Article VII, from Amendment I to Amendment XXVII. And I also follow the admonition of Christ and separate the civil law from the religious and keep each in it’s own camp where there may be conflict.
I also recognize, as many on one side try to ignore, that the sociological reality of America, and the world, is vastly different than it was 235 years ago. We are no longer 95% agrarian and 5% urban. In fact, we are almost exactly opposite today. Such that the sheer independence of the individual that was the norm at the founding is no longer either practical or reality. Urban life is too intertwined. Forty acres and a mule for a homesteader does not and CANNOT exist any longer.
We are too interdependent in the society of the 21st Century to pretend, as many do, that the Constitution is a static document. It MUST be a living, breathing thing in order to adapt to the CONSTANT sociological changes that occur over time. Otherwise, we would HAVE to throw it out every 50 years or so and write a new Constitution to fit the times. Doing so would cause us to lose the essential germ that makes us unique, that makes us American.
At the same time, we don’t, we can’t, just throw out the parts we don’t agree with, as some would like to do with the 2nd Amendment. That Amendment DOES NOT GRANT the right to bear arms, but recognizes a preceding natural right and bans Congress from infringing on it. Unless one wishes to move from inclusion to exclusion, as is being done with same sex marriage these days. And that would be inconsistent with the arc of American history.
Which is why I find GROG’s insistence on lumping all here who don’t agree with him as a bunch of back slappers so amusing and ridiculous. (And where was GROG during my arguments over that 2nd Amendment a few weeks back?)
Maybe this would be better in Open Mike, but with dc’s previous comment, I follow that here. -
bunch of back slappers
Speaking of which, rgbact could save a lot of time w/his posts re: grog, shilohbuster et al conservatives by just typing ITA every time he replies to his ilk. Of course, since we’ve known from day one he’s in 100% agreement w/his fellow Reps 100% of the time no need to post at all ie it’s a given.
But as Max mentioned, the Constitution is a living/breathing document so let rgbact’s freedom of speech ring lol even if it’s a tad redundant …
-
It’s a shame Mule decided not to answer any of the questions I asked in #231. I was interested to hear if Austrianism, or if austerity theories, could give any indication of when their prescriptions could produce positive results.
It’s really pretty easy to decide between a model that makes predictions and one that doesn’t. With the one that makes predictions, one can at least observe the results (matching them against what one actually did) to see whether, in the future, one might want to use similar techniques. For a model that makes no projections, we’ve got mo means of ascertaining its actual usefulness.
I think that’s the real strength of the Austrian philosophy. Austrians can always insist “It’s never been tried, so you can’t say it’s failed,” and “you just haven’t waited long enough, and no, I won’t tell you how long to wait.” It’s like an abusive spouse who promises to change “later” — you just have to be willing to accept the pain of the abuse “for the short run.”
-
#294 written by Max 1 year ago
dc,
GROG’s a decent guy and truly believes in his frame of reference. But he was somewhat out of his league on this issue. Mule Rider, as an Econ major and practitioner, should have been able to deliver the goods. Which is precisely why I said what I did about being glad to see him back.
But his difficulty with, and inability to, articulate ANYTHING concrete on Austrian school theory put to practice was a disappointment.
Seems with the Austrians it’s always jam yesterday and jam tomorrow, but never jam today.
Except even the jam yesterday was spoilt, which is why we moved the Keynesian policy 80 years ago. -
#295 written by GROG 1 year ago
Max,
GROG’s a decent guy and truly believes in his frame of reference. But he was somewhat out of his league on this issue.
This is exactly the kind of thing I’m talking about. I have not made an argument for or against Austrian economics on this thread. You can go back and look.
I’ve merely pointed out that it’s absurd to claim Austrian economics has been a failure in Europe when Austrian economics has not been tried in Europe nor does Austrian economics claim that 2 years worth of austerity measures is going to fix dangereously bloated governments like those in Europe.
It’s that simple and no one can seem to grasp the argument. Yet through all the head patting and everyone reinforcing each other’s claims, most of you still think I have argued something that I have not. -
#296 written by Max 1 year ago
-
-
I’ve merely pointed out that it’s absurd to claim Austrian economics has been a failure in Europe when Austrian economics has not been tried in Europe nor does Austrian economics claim that 2 years worth of austerity measures is going to fix dangereously bloated governments like those in Europe.
As I said. “It’s never been tried” — because we’ve never done 100% of what they’ve recommended.
“Dangereously bloated governments” — an undefined phrase which seems to mean, “social programs that have been working just fine for generations, but which I personally object to on moral grounds.”
You have no empirical data — none — which suggests that these governments are “bloated,” and not even any objective definition of what “bloated” means. Or “dangerously.” The economies of Europe are in trouble — not because of the social programs you object to, but because the world banking system went belly-up due to unregulated credit default swaps and other shenanigans that any sane regulatory system would have prevented.
And the solution from Austerians? Deregulate, and eliminate the programs that are successfully pulling millions of people out of poverty, and which had nothing to do with the current economic collapse. Oh, and cut back on public spending, which has for most of the last century proven effective at providing recovery from economic downturns.
And the argument in favor of these recommendations? It hasn’t yet been tried.
I’m not buying it, at least not until I see some actual definitions (with numbers) of words like “bloated,” and some evidence that paying for medical care is “dangerous.”
-
#299 written by Armchair Warlord 1 year ago
GROG,
So your answer to an obviously and objectively failed policy, the application of an economic theory that has failed every time it has been applied is to (1) claim the theory has not been turned into policy with sufficient vigor and (2) claim the policy has not had sufficient time to work when, in fact, the policy has been a total failure and has achieved the opposite of what it was implemented to do!
Pray tell, when will Europe emerge from crushing depression as a competitive machine of the free market under Frau Merkel’s economic policy?
Secret hint: the answer is never. Germany’s forcing of austerity onto the rest of Europe was designed to do one thing — keep the German economy in an ideal state by beggaring all others. -
-
You must be logged in to post a comment. - Comment Feed for this Post
- The First Scandal of 2016
- Math Beat Ideology
- Poopyheads!
- Election Watch: Election Day
- Romney’s Tax Plan: You Can’t Get There from Here
- The Romney Plan: Winners and Losers
- Reëlection Watch: October 27, 2012
- Faith, Hope and Charity
- October Surprise: Romney Endorses Obama!
- Reëlection Watch: October 20, 2012
About Michael Weiss (326 posts)
Michael is a jack of many trades, and master of a few. His varied background includes government and private businesses, both large and small. His experience in the financial services and computer industries has led him to computer security.





GDP was in steady decline until August 2009, at which it time is began a steady climb. Barely 5% of stimulus funds had been released by August 2009. GDP began it’s recovery with basically no stimulus spending.