Austrian Austerity
As we’ve all heard so often from the Austrian School adherents, the proper behavior for government in times of economic downturns is to reduce spending to match the lower tax revenues resulting from the lower amounts of economic activity.
American Republicans, of course, double down on this by suggesting that we should not only reduce spending to match the lower tax revenues, but that we should also lower tax rates to further reduce tax revenues, and reduce spending even further to match that lower amount of tax revenues. But today let’s look at the Austrians. Well, not the Austrians, per se, but rather a nation that has opted to hew pretty closely to the Austrian School of economics.
Yes, we don’t have to merely theorize about what the results would be in following the Austrian model of reduced government spending during a recession. We can make a pretty direct comparison.

Prime Minister David Cameron is shrinking goverment spending
You see, the United Kingdom’s Prime Minister David Cameron has been moving steadily toward the Austrian austerity model since he took the job in 2010. Much of the UK’s citizenry were enthusiastic in support of spending cuts. Cameron’s Finance Minister, George Osbourne, quickly cut government spending by 19 percent. He also cut the top income tax rate from 50 percent to 45 percent. Within a few months, the nation’s economy slowed noticeably. What was the administration’s response? More spending cuts, naturally.
And here we are, a few months after the second round of cuts. Would you be surprised to learn that the UK has gone back into a recession? In fact, it has now eclipsed the Depression era as the worst recovery period in the nation’s history. If you believe the Keynesian countercyclical economic theory, then you were expecting it. If you’re an Austrian adherent, you’re probably trying to come up with evidence that they simply hadn’t followed it closely enough…sort of how many Republicans believe that every GOP loss means that their candidate was so liberal as to be indistinguishable from a Democrat.
The UK now finds itself in a downward spiral. As Osbourne cuts spending, tax revenues are dropping even faster. Even in the rosiest projections, and despite his cuts, the national debt is expected to rise from its current 63.1 percent of GDP to 76.3 percent over the next two years.
The United States economy has more in common with the United Kingdom economy than it has with any other in Europe. Comparing the two, then, where the one major difference in 2010 and 2011 is the Keynesian versus Austrian model, is quite reasonable.
That’s not to say that the single data point is conclusive evidence. There are always local effects that can have additional impact, and introduce noise into the comparative model. That certainly could be the case here. Nonetheless, it’s yet another nail in the Austrian coffin.
It’s worth examining the United States economy during the Franklin Roosevelt years for an additional comparison. The economy showed a few signs of recovery after several Keynesian programs were implemented. Under pressure from Congress, stemming from concern regarding mounting debt, Roosevelt agreed to substantial cuts in these programs. Just as in the UK in 2011, the US recovery stalled. Unlike the UK, however, Roosevelt used that result as evidence in favor of additional Keynesian programs, which he was able to get enacted.
Here’s some food for thought: Republican Presidential candidate Mitt Romney proposes exactly the same sort of economic medicine as that implemented by Cameron & Co.: tax cuts on the wealthy, coupled with cuts in government spending.
Do we really want to follow in the footsteps of David Cameron?
Related articles
- The Austrian School Edge Over the Clueless Keynesians (economicpolicyjournal.com)
- Weisenthal, Again (economicpolicyjournal.com)
- An Austrian in the lion’s den (wnd.com)
- My Fed Speech, The Details (economicpolicyjournal.com)
- Balls Slams Coalition’s Economic ‘Catastrophe’ (news.sky.com)
- UPDATE | The cry of an innocent | David Cameron is disappointed by his “remarkable achievement” (jobmarketmonitor.com)
- Conservative Policies Fail In U.K. (lezgetreal.com)
- The Austerity Myth (spectator.co.uk)
- US economy grows as UK economy shrinks (leftfootforward.org)

This entry was posted by Michael Weiss on April 30, 2012 at 3:00 am, and is filed under Uncategorized. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0.You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.
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#302 written by Max 1 year ago
GROG,
That is simply untrue. False. A denial of empirical fact. It is the stereotypical Orwellian “Big Lie”.
1) The rise after the fall of 1929–33 in 1934-’37.
2) The double-dip when the GOP screamed and spending was cut in the mid-30’s.
3) The rise due to the deficit spending of WWII.
4) Post-WWII, one can see the cyclic results of Keynesian application during the next 40 years. Compare the heights and depths of the cycles of that period with any period of 40 years in previous American history. (Remember the “porpoising” we talked about earlier?) During that same time, following Keynesian theory, we also reduced the debt left over from the 30’s and ’40’s from almost 150% of GDP to less than 40%.
5) In spite of your falsehood, it’s clear that it worked. Until Ronald Reagan and his band of economic dwarfs jumped the tracks in the mid-’80’s. He used Keynesian policy after his inauguration to end the ’82 recession, but then he KEPT ON SPENDING money not in the Treasury! He KEPT ON PILING UP DEBT! So did George W. Bush! Clinton (with some help from the GOP in Congress) got things started back on the right track. But then George H W Bush immediately drove off into the SPENDING AND DEBT jungle once again!
6) We see the results of anti-Keynesian application in the failure of the system and the inability to be able to spend the amounts necessary to put a $15 Trillion economy back on track due to the DEBT RUN UP BY GOP Presidents in the same denial mode as are you!
PROVE your statement is NOT false. With facts and figures. Because, as I have just shown, prima facie, it’s just pure bullshit! Because what I just cited is not just “prediction”, it’s empirical fact. Only by denial, and saying day is night, can one not concede the obvious. -
#303 written by shortchain 1 year ago
GROG,
On the contrary, I think everybody understands your position. You are afraid to take a stand on austerity (although you clearly support it, based on your record of statements in several threads), and so you claim that it hasn’t been proven to fail (ignoring the fact that in economics, or any science involving statistical relationships, “proof” of a causal relationship in any specific instance is going to be impossible).
I think everybody understands that you insist that austerity hasn’t failed because it hasn’t been tried sufficiently over the last two years — ignoring the fact that, if austerity were a positive force in economics under the current circumstances, one would expect at least a slowing down of Europe’s dropping into recession — while Keynesian theories of countercyclical stimulus have failed because, although they seem to have helped stimulate economic growth in this country, they have not “succeeded” (in terms of a metric which you, and pretty much only you find useful).
Let’s make it absolutely clear for you:
1. I disagree with the metrics you use. Whether we have lower this or that now than we had before Obama took office may be the deciding issue for you and a lot of other individuals, but it’s hopelessly simplistic and ignores the reality of economics. The crash in the derivatives market brought down the economy so far that we are not going to climb out of it quickly — and not at all, if austerity is implemented.
2. If you don’t take trends into account, you are simply ignoring mathematics, and economics is mathematics applied to financial situations. It’s like trying to do physics without mathematics. Comprehension suffers.
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#304 written by GROG 1 year ago
1) The rise after the fall of 1929–33 in 1934-’37.
The truth to that lie is that Keynesian type spending began under Hoover in 1929. Federal outlays increased by 55% between 1929 and 1933 and real per capita spending increased by 88% during the same period.
Spending rose another 80% between 1933 and 1936. Eight years of Keynesian policy and still in the midst of the Great Depression. Government’s artificial meddling before the Great Depression and it’s attempt to prop it after made economic conditions much worse.
.http://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/review/06/01/GarrettRhine.pdf
http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2013/assets/hist01z1.xls2) The double-dip when the GOP screamed and spending was cut in the mid-30’s.
Spending only dropped by about 4.5% in 1938. What collapsed in 1938 was private investment due to FDR’s anti-business crusade.
3) The rise due to the deficit spending of WWII.
Another great lie. Economic conditions were terrible during the war. People couldn’t buy things they needed from shoes to tires due to the war effort and the lingering Depression. Since people couldn’t consume they were forced to save. Personal savings rates rose above 25% during the War. That’s what brought us out of the Depression after the War, not government deficit spending.
During that same time, following Keynesian theory, we also reduced the debt left over from the 30’s and ’40’s from almost 150% of GDP to less than 40%.
We paid debt off, not because of high taxes, but because we had just annihilated the rest of the civilized world. We had a bit of a competitive advantage.
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#305 written by Max 1 year ago
GROG,
Once again, you cherrypick data, instead of being honest. But I am glad you admit that some Keynesian spending did occur because there were SIGNIFICANT gains as a result in the early 30’s.
1) “ Federal outlays increased by 55% between 1929 and 1933 ” Well ’33 was the year of the “First 100 days” where FDR passed significant spending legislation (against GOP opposition). BUT only from $3.8B to 4.27 in ’32. Then in 1933 up to $5.1B, a 20% increase in 1 year! So you included the first year of FDR’s admin. Cherrypicking.
GDP dropped from over $103 B in 1929 down to 58B in ’32, then down to $56B in ’33, before the real spending took effect.
” Eight years of Keynesian policy and still in the midst of the Great Depression. “
But by ’36, three years into Keynesian policy, GDP had gained back to $83 B and the next year up to $92 B. Almost back to 1929! Flatlined the next year, after the GOP “revolt” and then the next two year gained back to over $101B almost exactly where the losses started! Goes to show you how bad 1929 really was! GDP lost almost HALF of what it was in 1929 in only 4 years!!!!! To gain it all back in 6 ain’t bad!! And may have gained it back by ’38, without GOP obstructionism.2) “Spending only dropped by about 4.5% in 1938. “ More cherrypicking! Spending dropped almost ten percent from ’36 to ’38!!! ($9.17B to $8.45B) And we see the result!
3) “ Economic conditions were terrible during the war. People couldn’t buy things they needed from shoes to tires due to the war effort and the lingering Depression. ” So wrong! And for the wrong reasons. People had JOBS in WWII!!! Sure rationing was in effect, but I have talked to plenty of people who lived during the times and, but for the men at war, I guaran-damn-tee you those people preferred the “economic conditions” of WWI than that of the early-mid ’30’s! You do those people a GREAT disservice with your false rant!
4) “We paid debt off, not because of high taxes ” Not saying a great deal of the gains in the US was because we were the only kid on the block in the ’50’s.
BUT, I am glad to hear that you don’t believe top marginal rates on income of 90+% for the first 15 years and 70% thereafter were not “high taxes”!! -
#306 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
Absolutely no reason for GROG to be under fire when undocumented hyperbolic filth like this is being spewed by people like AW without recourse:
So your answer to an obviously and objectively failed policy, the application of an economic theory that has failed every time it has been applied is to (1) claim the theory has not been turned into policy with sufficient vigor and (2) claim the policy has not had sufficient time to work when, in fact, the policy has been a total failure and has achieved the opposite of what it was implemented to do!
or unrepentant lies like this are being told by people like DC:
Austrians don’t make projections.
By the way, DC, how much time do you spend reading material at the mises.org website or other Austrian/libertarian economic sites? Be honest. I can tell you that I’m a frequent reader of Krugman and other Keynesian material to make sure I understand where they’re coming from, but I don’t get the slightest impression that people like you or AW read any literature representing the Austrian/libertarian viewpoint. In your mind, it’s failed, and the issue is settled. No sense in debating it further. Which is why people like you and AW bring nothing but hollow talking points to the table (like “tt’s been a colossal failure every time it’s been tried) as opposed to anything resembling an understanding of fundamental economic principles.
So typical of this site. GROG and I have spent numerous posts pointing out the flawed logic and the original article calling out the “failures of Austrian Austerity” yet somehow this has been twisted to put us and Austrian theory on trial with a guilty verdict of Austrianism as failed/ineffective because our critique of the flawed arguments in this post haven’t provided answers to all the questions you all think need to be asked (hint: not everything being asked is a legitimate or answerable question). As a little heads-up, not everything in economics can be know with precision/accuracy and is near-impossible to quantify. To amend DC’s little jab, Austrians make projections, but they don’t make projections about things that can’t accurately be projected. And they’re capable of pointing out the flaws in projections by people claiming they can accurately project such things. -
#307 written by shortchain 1 year ago
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#308 written by shortchain 1 year ago
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Mule, I offered you the opportunity to define terms like “bloated,” “long term,” “short term,” “a little pain,” and so forth. The offer still stands.
I visit places like mises.org occasionally. It’s tough reading, because it’s so irrational and hyperbolic and paranoid I can only take it in small doses. For example, on the front page this week is this absurd nugget:
The 99%, under the thrall of unsound ideas, are once again oppressing themselves. Thanks to the calamitous state of public opinion, the ranks of the 1% are once again increasingly being filled, not by capitalist-entrepreneurs serving the 99%, but by the state and its cronies exploiting and impoverishing the 99%.
There’s so much nonsense just in that short paragraph that it’s difficult to know where to start, and pushing past that into the deeper muck beyond hardly seems worthwhile.
Many years ago, I read a lot of the writings of the medieval witchhunters, who provided dense and intricate logic to prove their conviction that people needed to be tortured and then killed because they were in league with the Devil. The logic and arguments had a chilling lucidity. The problem was that it was all based on faulty premises and false convictions.They start with a religious notion that has nothing to do with supportable real-world observations, and build their reasoning on those underlying dark fantasies.
Places like mises.org strike me as amazingly similar. They have religious and moral convictions that government is bad, public spending is bad, capitalism is good, and private greed is good, and then base their reasoning on those underlying moral assumptions. Evidence from the Real World (tm) is casually brushed off or ignored completely, argued away as irrelevant because it doesn’t fit the religious notions they’re trying to advance.
Really, the idea that the wealthiest 1% would be “serving” the 99% if the government would just get out of their way — Mule, do you truly believe that?
And the audacity and arrogance of the people at mises! — they know The Truth, contrary to the experience of the rest of the world, which they decry as “the calamitous state of public opinion.” Such élite snobbery.
I’d be the first to agree that the public makes mistakes. That’s the danger of a democracy. But to pretend that We the People can’t look out for Our own interests, that we need those wealthy élites to lead us, is contrary to the whole notion of the United States.
Anyway, I agree that places like mises.org are important to read, for the same reason I read Sprenger and Kramer.
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#310 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“Please note: I follow the predictions of economists. I note that, from what I’ve seen, even the best Austrian economists, such as Murphy, have a poor track record — poorer than, for example, the best mainstream economists, such as Krugman.“
To suggest Dr. Murphy has a poor track record, especially compared to a hack like Krugman, is laughable, at best. What a pantload. Krugman doesn’t know how to do anything other than lie/twist/distort.
Would love to see you document all of Murphy’s “wrongs,” however, instead of just assert it as so. -
#311 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“Mule, I offered you the opportunity to define terms like “bloated,” “long term,” “short term,” “a little pain,” and so forth. The offer still stands“
Oh the irony that you need your hand held to have every rhetorical device translated into a specific quantifiable commodity or otherwise it’s invalid in your opinion.
Guess that pretty much invalidates anything you’ve ever said because you’ve never provided a quantifiable illumination of your rhetorical embellishments and hyperbolic caricatures. -
#312 written by Armchair Warlord 1 year ago
Mule,
I notice that you are ranting and raving about how “unfair” we are being to your economic cargo cult without actually debating the issue at hand. Can you actually point out a single instance of Austrian theory being applied and working? Or would that be unfair to you, as, after all, while scientists must make predictions and test them, cultists merely state dogma and twist their view of reality to match. -
#313 written by shortchain 1 year ago
Mule,
Hey, I’m up for it. Let’s start with the present instance. I note that Krugman pointed out a couple of years ago, that, if Europe went down the austerity route, it would only make things worse.
What was Murphy’s take on this? (My recollection is that he basically thought it would help — which is diametrically opposed to what actually happened — but I’m not going to look back and see if I got it right. You can do that easier, since you apparently follow his side more carefully than I do.) Krugman’s general opinion is available on his blog, if you do not wish to take my word for it, but if you need it, I’ll search and find a specific column as proof.
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#314 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“There’s so much nonsense just in that short paragraph that it’s difficult to know where to start, and pushing past that into the deeper muck beyond hardly seems worthwhile.“
No, what’s being said there actually makes perfect sense and would to you to if you weren’t borderline mentally retarded when it comes to understanding basic economic principles and concepts.
That paragraph is actually expresses a bit of sympathy to “the 99%” who continue to be hoodwinked by the smoke and mirror show being put on by the unholy alliance of Big Government and Big Business, who magically shift blame between one another to keep the masses confused and angry (keeping liberals/OWSers mad at Big Business and conservatives/TP types mad at Big Government) but are joined at the hip behind the scenes at everyone else’s expense, trotting out destructive program after destructive program under the guise of the free market and government working together for our benefit but actually developing policies that line their pockets and make it harder for the rest of us to keep up.
But you don’t have the capacity to understand what’s taking place. You’ve got your blind faith in the public sector while many “conservatives” have blind faith in the private sectors. What you don’t understand about me is I don’t have blind faith in either one. -
#315 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“Really, the idea that the wealthiest 1% would be “serving” the 99% if the government would just get out of their way — Mule, do you truly believe that?“
No, I don’t, but this being your interpretation of that paragraph tells me you missed the point entirely. The paragraph isn’t asking for the government to get out of the way of the 1% so that they will take on some kind of altruistic purpose; it’s saying that the incestuous relationship between big government and big business that’s developed over time has created a 1% that has neither the moral obligation to serve us nor proper authority to protect us from exploitation.
This is why your opinions on economics border on invalid. You can’t read a paragraph without coming away with a totally different interpretation than the message conveyed. -
#316 written by Max 1 year ago
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#317 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
And that interpretation, almost without fail, is trotted out in such a way to paint your brand of liberalism as “good/altruistic” and all brands of conservatism that you don’t like/understand as “bad/evil.”
You no doubt think I’m the dogmatic prick here, but I can assure you I hold liberalism — your brand of it or otherwise — in far higher regard than you hold conservatism/libertarianism — my brand of it or otherwise — because I rarely if ever see anything as bad/evil with liberalism — often naïve and misinformed — but it’s quite clear where you stand from the opposite angle. That’s why I have trouble giving you respect. -
#318 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“Prose ain’t facts.
Blue prose ain’t data.
Railing about the stupidity of one’s opponent without producing empirical evidence against them ain’t an accomplishment.
If it’s not quantifiable, it’s not science, it’s wishful thinking’
Yeah, sorta like the “austerity is causing economic hardship — ??? — Austrianism has failed” argument perpetuated by you, Michael, DC, shortchain, AW, and anyone else I’ve missed in this thread.
You don’t have empirical evidence. You have wishful thinking. And that’s all you’ve ever had. -
#319 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“What was Murphy’s take on this? (My recollection is that he basically thought it would help — which is diametrically opposed to what actually happened — but I’m not going to look back and see if I got it right.“
So you levy and accusation but then admit to being too lazy to set up an objective set of parameters to test against, and your argument amounts to nothing more than, “Krugman seems to have gotten it right, and I think Murphy’s missed the boat, but I don’t know for sure and I’m not going to go back and see just what was said and how that’s stacked against reality.“
The question is, why do I even bother reading and responding to you if this is the best you can do? I mean, seriously. -
#320 written by Armchair Warlord 1 year ago
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#321 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2012/05/how-savage-has-european-austerity-been.html
As this and other sources clearly show, to call what’s been going on in Europe “austerity” is a joke in and of itself. -
#322 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“And –you– accuse –us– of misconstruing your arguments?“
Ahh, another drive-by with no specific reference or challenge to my critique. These are always comfy to hide behind, aren’t they? Sure make you feel good about delivering a painful blow to the opposition but with none of the effort of addressing even one iota of the subject matter being discussed. Perhaps you’d like to use what little brain matter you have that works and turn it into a challenge with a little more meat behind it?
Besides, you’re the one who boldly asserted earlier that Austrianism has failed each and every time it’s been implemented. Would love some documentation illustrating each and every time it’s been implemented in history and how exactly it “failed.“
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Oh the irony that you need your hand held to have every rhetorical device translated into a specific quantifiable commodity or otherwise it’s invalid in your opinion.
No. It’s just that if there are no metrics to tell whether a suggested course succeeds, then there is no way to tell if it succeeded.
Are Austrians afraid of providing goals and benchmarks? Really, how can we tell whether a course should be followed if even its adherents can’t tell us whether it worked or not?
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#324 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
Yes, Krugman is so confident in his beliefs and predictions and how dim the understanding of our present situation is that he hasn’t shown a willingness to debate Dr. Murphy in public - http://www.krugmandebate.com/ - and not that long ago he enacted even stricter moderation guidelines on his blog to shut out nearly all opposing opinions.
If you align yourself with Paul Krugman, you’re aligning yourself with an egotist and charlatan that spends more time distorting and running from the truth than addressing it and those who represent it face-to-face. -
#325 written by Armchair Warlord 1 year ago
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#326 written by shortchain 1 year ago
Mule,
Whether someone is willing or unwilling to debate somebody is immaterial. For example, I’m not willing to debate anybody on even my area of expertise — the proof is in the results, not in the minds of the audience.
So — I take it that you can’t show Murphy having anything that displays his ability to actually predict economic results as a result of the last few years?
Score: Krugman 1, Murphy 0.
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#327 written by Max 1 year ago
Mule,
You don’t have empirical evidence. You have wishful thinking. And that’s all you’ve ever had.
Actually that is a bald-faced lie. A lie of the first magnitude. A lie when the truth would do better.
Any serious minded person could look at the WEALTH of empirical data that I and others have posted on this thread. They could then attack the validity of that data if they truly thought it false by providing something other than cherry-picked data that are easily countered and bullshit arguments that do not address the data but attack the messenger.
That is all, less the provision of factual counter data, that you have done.
You obviously are not serious minded.
Come on back when you have more than the drool on your chin to offer.
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#328 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“No. It’s just that if there are no metrics to tell whether a suggested course succeeds, then there is no way to tell if it succeeded.“
Herein lies the problem. I think what you interpret as, “Austrians provide us with no metrics, benchmarks for success, goals, useful predictions, etc.” is actually Austrians telling you what you don’t want to hear, that being that the growing debt load is unsustainable because it will, at some point when it seems apparent that we’re only concerned about spending money and not paying down debt, create a currency crisis with our creditors (who want to be sure they’re getting paid with something that’s actually worth something), and to stave off this crisis we need to drastically slow down the rate of spending relative to the resources available to deploy within the economy, which will likely result in temporary hardships and a setback in our standard of living but will prevent a temporary extension of what’s an unsustainable sense of prosperity and security in exchange for a devastating collapse down the road.
I don’t care if you dnn’t believe me or not or think I’m a lunatic or not. You’re free to believe what you want to believe and deploy the “fixes” that you think will work. -
#329 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“So — I take it that you can’t show Murphy having anything that displays his ability to actually predict economic results as a result of the last few years?“
No no no no.…I won’t let this stand.…you made the accusation about Murphy’s predictive ability.…i.e. the burden of proof is ON YOU to demonstrate it as lacking, versus Krugman or otherwise. You’ve provided nothing to back up your assertion and even insinuated you didn’t have any desire to look that stuff up.
Not sure how that gives you a 1–0 score for anything.…if anything, you’re the one sitting at 0. -
#330 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“Mule, surely as one of the cultists yourself you should be able to provide that single example I asked for. It’s hard to prove a negative but easy to do likewise… if you actually do have a counter-example handy. Or are you just blowing smoke and lying as usual?“
I’ll read you the same directive I gave shortchain…YOU’RE the one making these big bold assertions, so how about YOU be the one to back it up with evidence? Don’t come in here making bold statements without any inkling of evidence and then demand me to “prove the opposite” and act like I’ve failed when I don’t say “How high?” when you tell me to, “Jump!” This is complete bullshit and a waste of everybody’s good time. -
#331 written by Armchair Warlord 1 year ago
Mule,
We’ve never claimed Austrians lack for dogma. As you seem so intent to prove, they possess plenty of it. It’s that they lack substance and intellectual rigor about their beliefs. Are you even capable of talking this issue at a deeper level than the above, or is that really all you have to offer?
As they say in law, “When the facts are against you, bang on the law. When the law is against you, bang on the facts. And when both are against you, bang on the table!”
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#332 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“You obviously are not serious minded.
Come on back when you have more than the drool on your chin to offer.“
This is why you’re garbage right along with your pals shortchain and AW. Because you have the gall to sit there and chastise me after witnessing what those two have done the past 10 or so posts.
This is how this has been going down.…liberal Logarchism commenter makes a bold (and extremely harsh/negative) statement about Austrian theory (or a theorist). I offer a rebuttal saying, “Hey, where’s the evidence to back these claims up?” Which is by them essentially saying, “Screw us proving anything. You prove the opposite; and since we deem you can’t, score one for us.“
If this is what passes for honest debate and intellectual thought, nah, never mind, nothing good can come from mouth with that as a premise.
I’m sorry but for all of the positive contributions from people like MW and mclever, pretty much anything that comes from this site is invalidated by the piles of horse shit spewed by the likes of AW, shortchain, and Max. Even DC isn’t being this much of a pain in the ass and is at last demonstrating a modicum of interest in opposing ideas.
Shame on you guys. Shame shame shame.
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#333 written by Armchair Warlord 1 year ago
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#334 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
AW,
You haven’t yet demonstrated a working understanding of basic economic principles; all I“m picking up is hollow negative rhetoric against ideas you don’t want to or are unable to understand. As such, I consider your opinions on the subject invalid. Not that you care as I’m sure you consider mine invalid. The key, though, is when we get out of this bowl of idiocy and go back into the Real World and you’re still an unrepentant idiot when it comes to economic theory and I actually use it in everyday life as an analyst and consultant. -
#335 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“So you cannot actually provide an example of Austrianism in action to better our economic lots?“
I’m yet to see an example provided of where Austrianism in action has worsened our economic lot despite the main article and roughly 250 of the 330-something subsequent comments insinuating (but not demonstrating) that as the case.
Until one of you puts forth the slightest of efforts to demonstrate the disparaging filth you’ve spewed against Austrianism, I’m going to take shortchain’s easy route and refuse to do any legwork.
Let’s recap.…you guys started all of the negative talk on Austrianism so THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON YOU.
As they also say in law, “innocent until proven guilty.” So until you can demonstrate Austrianism is all the negative/mean/nasty things you’re saying about it, it’s still innocent of all charges. -
I think what you interpret as, “Austrians provide us with no metrics, benchmarks for success, goals, useful predictions, etc.” is actually Austrians telling you what you don’t want to hear, that being that the growing debt load is unsustainable…
I agree that the “growing debt load is unsustainable.” Keynesian theory, by the way, would also agree with that. So, far from not “wanting to hear that,” I agree with it completely. And as soon as economic conditions improve, we must begin to pay down the debt. No one is suggesting that the debt levels should be allowed to continue rising indefinitely at the current rate.
At the moment, however, there are more pressing matters, since we are not anywhere near the point where our current debt load is a problem, and cutting public spending would mean slowing the economy still more. I understand that Austrians view this as “malinvestmet,” but they’re simply flat-out wrong.
Here’s the rub. How much should we cut public spending, and how quickly? After doing so, how long will it be before the economy returns to its pre-crash levels? What are the mechanisms that lead from reduced public spending (i.e., slowing the economy further) to economic growth?
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#337 written by Max 1 year ago
Mule,
Assuming you actually do wish to make a point, I don’t think ANYONE here believes a growing debt load is infinitely sustainable. We have spoken on numerous occasions about the fallacy of the GOP presidents and their penchant of growing debt in good economic times instead of paying it down.
But debt, used responsibly, is a good and sometimes necessary thing. That is what Keynesian theory supports and what was done in the US from circa. 1930 to 1985. And Clinton paid down debt while in office.
If the current economic crisis ended tomorrow, by tomorrow night I’d be calling for debt reduction using a combination of spending cuts and revenue increases. But we are not there yet. What if, in the middle of WWII, we stopped deficit spending? How stupid would that have been? That’s where we are economically, now.
That’s where I am.
How about you? -
#338 written by shortchain 1 year ago
Mule,
So you insist that we not only provide evidence of the correctness of one side, but we provide evidence of the incorrectness of the other side? How are we supposed to do that? As far as I know, there’s been remarkably few predictions other than that, if we keep on borrowing (beyond what we can repay, presumably) eventually we’ll run into problems.
Well, duh! the question isn’t whether that will happen, but when, and how we’ll know ahead of time in time enough to so that we can take steps. This is analogous to the person who says: “if you drink enough water, you’ll die!” Yes, but if we stop drinking now, the results may not be salubrious either.
And in the economic case, Austrian economics apparently provides not a shred of worthwhile guidance. In short, it’s worthless as a practical guide for what to do.
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#339 written by Max 1 year ago
Mule,
Considering the current state of Spain and the UK, would you agree that austerity by cutting back on government spending for infrastructure would be Austerian in nature?
If so, are the current austerity policies of those two countries putting them on the right path, even marginally?
If so, what other policies need to be implemented by those countries to continue on the Austrian path?
There’s more, but let’s try and get those out of the way first. -
#340 written by shortchain 1 year ago
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#341 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“Oh, and Mule, I presented an example where Krugman made a testable prediction — a prediction which turned out to be quite correct.“
This would be akin to me, on a Monday, saying I predict sunshine. Then it’s sunny on Tuesday, and I say, “See how right I am.” Never mind if it’s cloudy/rainy beginning Wednesday and continuing Saturday.
I’ve been following Krugman for some time, and this is the status quo with him. His predictions are always couched in some vague/nebulous timeline so that he never has to go back and admit he was wrong.
But you wouldn’t see this by sitting in his lapping up the propaganda straight from his own mouth.…take a step back and read some of his critics with an open mind.…not that I expect you to because you share just about the same level of hubris/ego as PK himself. -
#342 written by shortchain 1 year ago
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This would be akin to me, on a Monday, saying I predict sunshine. Then it’s sunny on Tuesday, and I say, “See how right I am.” Never mind if it’s cloudy/rainy beginning Wednesday and continuing Saturday.
Put aside that this is a mischaracterization of Krugman. How does this differ from Austrians? Is the difference that Austrians give no projections whatever concerning the expected effects of their policies? Or is there some other significant difference?
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#344 written by Max 1 year ago
Sum total of Mule’s contribution towards a reasoned explanation of Austrian School theory in practical application:
“I ain’t got shit. So I will ignore all those facts presented and treat anyone who disagree’s with me with contempt for their stupidity in recognizing that I ain’t got shit.” -
#345 written by Armchair Warlord 1 year ago
Mule,
Actually, you have yet to demonstrate an understanding of even basic economic principles. I have yet to see you actually talk about the matter at hand in a debate in a scholarly manner — instead, all you do is regurgitate mass-market talking points and blather on meta-argument subjects which are entirely besides the point.
I don’t actually think you know a damn thing about economics, Mule. And I dare you to prove me wrong. -
His predictions are always couched in some vague/nebulous timeline so that he never has to go back and admit he was wrong.
Correct me if I’m wrong — but isn’t this identical to the Austrian descriptions and warnings? They’re all vague, nebulous, inexact — Bad Things will happen (someday, and to some unspecified extent) if we follow Course A. But Good Things will happen (someday, and to some unspecified extent) if we follow Course B — though following Course B also means that some Really Bad Things will happen before the Good Things happen, and those Bad Things will continue for unspecified lengths of time, during which we’re not allowed to say that Austrian techniques are harming us.
Isn’t that pretty much true? Or am I missing something?
So when the Bad Things happen after we do what Austrians want, we’re told 1) we haven’t stuck with it long enough yet, and 2) we didn’t precisely exactly totally follow the Austrian recommendations, so again, we’re not allowed to draw any conclusions about Austrianism.
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Oh, and I forgot — when the Bad Things happen after following Austrian suggestions, not only have we not waited long enough and not followed precisely the inexact recommendations from Austrians, but also the initial conditions were such that Austrian austerity wouldn’t do much good anyway.
I must be missing something. Yes?
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#348 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“I don’t actually think you know a damn thing about economics, Mule. And I dare you to prove me wrong.“
Cute. The actual know-nothing demands proof from the perceived know-nothing.
Listen, asshat, while you were crawling through mud under barbed wire and going over plots to defend our nation and kill our enemies abroad (thanks for your service, btw), I racked up a BS and MS in economics — agricultural/resource econ emphasis — with GPA’s hovering near 4.0 and have spent the last 5 years as a respected analyst and consultant, applying economic principles to everyday life.
Your specialty is guarding against scud missile attacks and keeping North Korea contained and mine is analyzing markets from every different angle, so pardon me if I consider your “dare” little more than foaming at the mouth from a little boy on the floor at McDonald’s throwing a tantrum because Daddy won’t buy him a happy meal. -
#349 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“I have yet to see you actually talk about the matter at hand in a debate in a scholarly manner“
What an effing laugher when, for the umpteenth time, the primary critique in this thread has been “Europe is applying more austerity and is incurring economic harm — ??? — Austrian Economics repudiated!“
Don’t even get preachy to me about arguing my point in a scholarly manner, you mouth-breathing maggot. -
#350 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“Whether someone is willing or unwilling to debate somebody is immaterial.“
Went back and found my trump card. I’m assuming Krugman avoids Murphy because he doesn’t find his position credible, and therefore relevant, and that is apparently a defensible position, so why can’t I do the same?
I haven’t seen anything in the comments of AW, DC, Max, or shortchain to suggest they have a credible position or understanding of basic economic concepts, therefore I see no need to continue a running dialogue with them on the subject.
From henceforth, then, I will not engage in a discussion of economics with anyone but Michael and possibly mclever, not because she’s a knowledgeable economist but because she’s respectful and somewhat open-minded. So the 4 of you — and any others who wish to join your throng — can flail away with insults, condescension, taunts, snide remarks, etc. but I’m not wasting any more time on you. My Real World track record speaks for itself, and I don’t have anything to prove to any of you, regardless of your petulant demands on this blog. -
#351 written by Max 1 year ago
From henceforth, then, I will not engage in a discussion of economics with anyone but Michael and possibly mclever, not because she’s a knowledgeable economist but because she’s respectful and somewhat open-minded.
Read:
“I ain’t got shit and I will only discuss the fact that I ain’t got shit with people who haven’t been so stupid as to recognize that I ain’t got shit and call me out for it.Yet.“
Left unsaid:
“Once they do, then I’ll refuse discourse with them.
Because: I ain’t got shit.”
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Mule, I’ve been respectful and curious. I note that you haven’t actually addressed any of my questions. That’s fine, the only conclusion I can draw is that my points are valid — Austrians don’t actually have anything in their theories that can be tested for veracity. It’s a theological belief system, not an actual school of economics.
I can be convinced otherwise. Provide some actual testable projections rather than just statements of principle. Principle is nice; testable projections, however, are necessary if anyone wants to suggest a practical course of action.
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#353 written by shortchain 1 year ago
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OK, Mule, I’ll take that as an invitation. I’ve been pretty busy elsewhere most of the day anyway, but I figured I’d stay out of this in order to reduce the amount of piling-on.
So, I’ll preface this by stating upfront that I don’t believe that austerity is the only (or even necessarily the most important) component of Austrian economics. [As an aside, I agree with mclever that Keynesian countercyclical economic theory is often shortened to “government spend more money”, as if that were the only, or even the most important, component of Keynesian countercyclical economic theory.]
Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that the EU were to implement a policy tomorrow that could have been written by Ludwig von Mises himself.
1) What would that look like from a policy perspective?
2) What would be the short-term implications of doing so (speaking in, say, the under-two-years timeframe)?
3) How long would it take for the EU economy to return to steady, healthy growth? (And, incidentally, what metrics would you use to describe steady, healthy growth?) -
#355 written by Armchair Warlord 1 year ago
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#357 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that the EU were to implement a policy tomorrow that could have been written by Ludwig von Mises himself.“
And I’ll preface my answer by saying that I’m not as familiar with the inner-workings of the EU economy as I am the US economy — and especially how all that plays out sharing a united currency (the Euro) but maintaining a bit of autonomy in how social programs are administered — but will do my best given those constraints/limitations, plus the fact that the questions are a little open-ended. We’ll assume the EU continues to share/use the Euro but that policy directives are applied uniformly across borders (i.e. if public pensions are abolished in Germany, they’re abolished in France as well).“1) What would that look like from a policy perspective?“
The starting point would probably be with the European Central Bank. The Euro would be forced to be backed by gold and/or silver or at least have strict limitations placed on its monetary authority, restricting currency issuance and allowing for a natural (or market) rate of interest.
And this is the trick of Austrianism. You could stop right there — although maybe fine tune what I said above a little more — and that would get you probably three-quarters of the way. The biggest issue for Austrians isn’t necessarily “austerity” — thanks for acknowledging that, by the way — but rather an honest money supply that can’t be manipulated by money printing or with artificial interest rates.
But certainly that could be expanded upon if the goal is to erect an “ideal Austrian economy.” Government spending would likely be pared to a bare-bones minimum, just enough to keep the military, police force, other essential government bodies, and infrastructure going, and that would be followed by major tax reform (to a much simpler system, assuming theirs is anywhere near as complex as ours, though I’m sure it varies from country to country). A smart tax policy would be crafted that is fair (could be progressive but not punitive) and interferes only minimally with commerce and is adequate to fund the above government programs.
Public spending on pension and healthcare programs would likely evaporate, and there would be a switch to more of a private/free market solution, although if there’s enough public support, there’s no reason there can’t be public administration of those programs either.“2) What would be the short-term implications of doing so (speaking in, say, the under-two-years timeframe)?“
Honestly, the short-term implications of that kind of radical change would probably be ugly. You don’t shake things up and things be hunky-dory overnight. I’m sure GDP and employment would likely fall — as people recalibrate out of government positions and into the private sector. The uncertainty would then have a noticeable (and negative) impact on manufacturing, housing, etc.“3) How long would it take for the EU economy to return to steady, healthy growth?“
Honestly, it’s hard to tell not knowing the EU economy intimately, but from what I can from the outside looking in, I’m guessing it could take at least 5, if not 10 years or more, for most/all economic indicators to be heading in a positive direction. it’s just hard to tell, and I’m sure it would be different depending on where you’re talking about. Germany probably wouldn’t notice it much while Greece, Spain, et al could be up to 20 years before things look rosy again.
”(And, incidentally, what metrics would you use to describe steady, healthy growth?)”“
For me, I would want to look at per capita GDP growth, employment, as well as wage/income growth and purchasing power parity.
In all honesty, a full scale adoption of Austrianism would likely be very ugly for the EU economy in the short– to intermediate-term, and you’re probably looking at 10–15 years or so for most member countries to be fully on their feet again. Sorry, it’s not a magical elixir but that also doesn’t make it bad or the “wrong path.” In the end, I honestly believe it’s the most effective, efficient, and ultimately prosperous path, particularly if the government properly regulates the economy so as to simultaneously avoid burdening commerce while making sure people participate fairly in it.
But the EU has been fully committed to an alternative economic theory for decades, and they’re just too far into it for that kind of change to have any positive effects anytime soon. They could wean themselves off of it at a much slower pace, minimizing the short=term pain, but would still have to be serious about keeping spending under control and it could be several decades, if not a century or more, before they could fully transition to a market-based economy. Yeah, there wouldn’t be as much “pain,” but there would be decades of much slower progress (and consequently prosperity) than they could have otherwise achieved.
I think a mischaracterization of Austrianism (and, honestly, some of the radicals give off this vibe, so it’s understandable) is that it’s the “only way” and not the “best way.” I fall in the latter camp, that being that the economic principles Austrianism argue for will be the best and most efficient — and consequently lead to the most prosperous outcomes for the most people with a higher standard of living — but aren’t necessarily the only way to get there. Bloated government spending and programs and heavy-handed interventionism aren’t automatically Bad Things that will ultimately lead to catastrophe and some dystopian nightmare but due to market-distorting mechanisms they are very likely to slow or keep an economy from fully reaching its potential if more market-based solutions were allowed to thrive. -
#358 written by dawolf 1 year ago
Mule, a very interesting post @357. Seems pretty clear to me though that very few countries will have the political will to push through what you describe (never mind the fact that I think it’s an awful course to take). You can already see in Greece, France etc that radical changes like you describe are not popular with the population in general. Offering jam in 15 or 20 years time but massive pain until then does not strike me as a vote winner.
I would also point out, that what you describe is largely austerity by other names. It’s about slashing and burning government programs, leading to a slower circulation of money in the economy in the short term. So, higher unemployment, lower government spend, lower GDP, lower government income. Doesn’t seem like a motor of growth to me, or good for the country. -
#359 written by shortchain 1 year ago
Lacking economic chops, my comment here is merely an aside, but I have to say I’m just thrilled — thrilled, I say! — at Mule’s prescription for future economic stability. I think we have to assume what he’s proposing for Europe is exactly what he’d propose for the USA, so let’s look at what it would mean for a moment. He’s basically saying that we should make beggars out of a generation of people who are on the verge of retirement right now (which would include yours truly). These people would be thrown on their own resources, cut off from government programs, allowed to die or live in poverty.
And, after we’re all dead or living in end-stage poverty, everybody else would enjoy the fruits of our suffering, which is a return to bank runs every 5 years or so, making paupers out of people on a regular basis, and of course the periodic depressions that gave us such wonderful events as Nazi Germany, Communist Russia before that, and the resulting waves of immigration — except that, now that the world is basically pretty populated, the people affected would have nowhere to go.
Who wouldn’t be ecstatic at the prospect?
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#360 written by mclever 1 year ago
Thank you, Mule, for your lengthy and informative post regarding how you see Austrianism applying in Europe.
You probably could have saved us all about 100 posts if you’d just said up-front that monetary policy (i.e. gold standard) is a more important component of Austrianism than austerity, rather than just insulting us all for getting it wrong but not telling how. For those of us less intimately familiar with a particular theory or philosophy, it’s easier to latch onto a peripheral concept, and it takes an insider to clarify what the real point is. So, thanks.
In the context of this article, if we remove the allusions to Austrianism, I think the overall point that austerity measures are struggling to match the successes of counter-cyclical spending stands. Moderate stimulus spending has lifted some economies from the bottoms of the 2008–2009 global recession, but those embracing austerity measures have generally fallen behind and double-dipped into a second recession. If I’m wrong on this, please feel free to point me to a major nation that suffered the 08–09 recession and has used austerity measures to recover successfully.
To your points about Austrianism in Europe, I think a fixed-money economy can work on a smaller scale, like a village or city. If your currency is tied to gold or some other fixed resource, then a smaller community can just go get more gold when times get tough. However, for a multi-national economy, I don’t think a fixed-money policy allows enough flexibility to respond to broader market trends. There simply isn’t enough gold. What do you do when someone robs Fort Knox (or whatever the EU equivalent is)? Does the entire continent’s economy collapse until someone can go mine a few billion pounds of gold? If you say “of course not!” then you’re admitting that the currency is flexible and not necessarily tied to the fixed resource, which opens the door back up for floating currency and “printing money” without gold to back it up. -
#361 written by dawolf 1 year ago
On Austerity, I’d like to mention the reverse — government investment.
Let’s take a subject I actually know about, Renewable Energy. I’m going to pick a fairly standard medium sized wind turbine, an Enercon E33 for this example, as I happen to have a price from Enercon to hand from only a month ago. Medium sized wind turbines are generally less cost-efficient than larger turbines, so redoing the analysis with a larger turbine would give different figures.
An Enercon E33 including all balance of system costs, installation, taxes etc, currently costs in the range of £800,000-£850,000. I’ll use the higher figure for now.
Lets say you can borrow this money from a bank @ 10%, over 20 years. Your repayment is £100,000 a year, meaning that you need to pay back £2 million over the 20 years. In addition you will have to give a lot of money to the landowner — this will vary but you might be looking at £750,000 to the landowner. Insurance, O&M, Office costs etc add a further £600,000 over the life of the turbine.
Total cost: £3,350,000 over 20 years.
Instead, let’s say that it is based on a government loan @ 2.5%, that’s £55,000 per annum repayment. Other costs etc the same. £1.1 million over the 20 years.
Total cost: £2,450,000.
You’ve just knocked over a quarter off the total cost, purely by switching to a government investment.
That’s the kind of thing government investment can do, if done right. Knock a high amount off the cost of something.
Now that money gets spent, it doesn’t just sit. People get employed manufacturing the turbines, transporting them, installing them. Writing planning applications, doing ecological surveys, legal fees. The landowner makes a profit. Less money needs to be spent on fossil fuel imports.
And by the end of the 20 years, the government has actually made a profit (although wiped out by inflation). Not bad!
In my mind, this kind of investment of government money is massively, MASSIVELY more useful than say temporary tax cuts, which are largely a waste of money IMO.
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Mule,
Thanks for that detailed response. The details are very much as I expected. It would seem, then, that we’re in agreement about what the short-term impact would be. That is, extraordinarily high unemployment, homelessness, etc. Something reminiscent (though probably worse) than we saw in the US in the 1930s.I’m sure GDP and employment would likely fall — as people recalibrate out of government positions and into the private sector.
Much of that “recalibration” shouldn’t be difficult at all. It would take nothing more than (for example) converting the UK’s NHS to a private corporation. Of course, with the high unemployment, many people wouldn’t be able to pay the doctors, so there would have to be substantial layoffs within the NHS to reflect the lower demand.
A smart tax policy would be crafted that is fair (could be progressive but not punitive) and interferes only minimally with commerce and is adequate to fund the above government programs.
With a substantially smaller economy to tax, it would seem that the rates wouldn’t be able to go down from their current levels as much as you might believe.
I’m guessing it could take at least 5, if not 10 years or more, for most/all economic indicators to be heading in a positive direction.
And note that this is the point of the nadir of the economy. Returning to something more like things were before the economic meltdown would take years longer. We’re getting into the territory of an entire generation’s career.
Germany probably wouldn’t notice it much
Au contraire. Given that Germany is the manufacturing powerhouse of the EU, they’d lose the bulk of their economic power (that is, the money that flows into Germany from the rest of Europe) because of a lack of economic activity in the surrounding nations.
Sorry, it’s not a magical elixir but that also doesn’t make it bad or the “wrong path.”
I try to shy away from “right” and “wrong” anyway, since those words are absolutes in absence of solid context. It certainly sounds like a very unpleasant path for the remaining lifetimes of pretty much anyone over 30.
Why would cutting government to the bone be so much better to do during a recession than making the same cuts in another three to five years, when it looks like the economy would be in a much healthier position?
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#363 written by GROG 1 year ago
Max,
1) “ Federal outlays increased by 55% between 1929 and 1933 ” Well ’33 was the year of the “First 100 days” where FDR passed significant spending legislation (against GOP opposition). BUT only from $3.8B to 4.27 in ’32. Then in 1933 up to $5.1B, a 20% increase in 1 year! So you included the first year of FDR’s admin. Cherrypicking.
My mistake but spending was actually less in 1933 than it was in 1932.
But by ’36, three years into Keynesian policy, GDP had gained back to $83 B and the next year up to $92 B. Almost back to 1929!
No, not three years into Keynesian policy, it was eight years in. Real per capita spending increased 88% from 1929 to 1932. Keynesian spending started in 1929–1930, not 1933, which means after 8 years of Keynesian spending, and unemployment was still at 17% in 1936.
After a decade of failed Keynesian policy, it took World War and the conscription of 11 million Americans, fascist type rationing of consumer goods and labor which caused personal savings rates to rise above 25% during the War to finally get us of the depression. -
dawolf,
Offering jam in 15 or 20 years time but massive pain until then does not strike me as a vote winner.
No, it’s certainly not politically tenable outside of a dictatorship at this point. Particularly since the offered jam is so far off. Speaking from a strictly political perspective (and nothing more), this was tried once before. But I don’t see anyone, even a culture as willing to accept decades of misery as were the Russians, taking that sort of thing on again.
But I wasn’t asking Mule about political reality. I’m sure he’s equally aware of the political intractability of such a prescription.
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shortchain,
after we’re all dead or living in end-stage poverty, everybody else would enjoy the fruits of our suffering, which is a return to bank runs every 5 years or so, making paupers out of people on a regular basis, and of course the periodic depressions
Not necessarily. Mises’s model wasn’t employed in the US in the 1880s or 1920s, either. Remember the huge railroad giveaways? The metal mine giveaways? The oil giveaways (Teapot Dome, anyone)?
The long-term story is much more nuanced than your comment would suggest.
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#366 written by shortchain 1 year ago
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mclever,
While many Austrians are unable to separate the desire for a stable currency supply from heavy metals, Mule isn’t among them. We’ve discussed this in the past. His only desire is to have the quantity of dollars remain constant. It’s structurally easier to do that when it’s tied to a physical item, but that’s more a function of convenience, in his view, than one of necessity.And, frankly, given how metals move so much relative to other commodities, it’s probably more harmful than beneficial to tie a currency to such a commodity if the only desired goal is to maintain a constant quantity.
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#368 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“Why would cutting government to the bone be so much better to do during a recession than making the same cuts in another three to five years, when it looks like the economy would be in a much healthier position?“
I think the difference lies in how close you and I (and others) perceive the proverbial cliff to be. If we’re really on the precipice, things won’t simply be better in 3–5 years and allow for spending cuts then. If I really believed we had substantially more time, I might agree with you. But my fear is that we’re fast appraoching the point of no return where there will be a major funding crisis, which will lead to sweeping defaults and/or currency debasement yada yada yada you know the rest. Then we’re stuck with a lost generation and several ugly decades anyway. In the analagous sense, maybe I’m a little more afraid of heights than you are (I can attest it’s probably true in real life as I get skittish on anything taller than a ladder, thanks for listening to my personal anecdote) but I really don’t know — nor do I think many others know, whether it be esteemed academics like Krugman or those from the Austrian School like Murphy, exactly where that tipping point is.
“But I wasn’t asking Mule about political reality. I’m sure he’s equally aware of the political intractability of such a prescription.“
You are quite correct in your read of my awareness of the unpopularity of my position. I even acknowledged it as such when I alluded to Keynesianism/interventionism, possibly unfairly, at least in a broad-strokes sense, as “economics of instant gratification.” It’s no secret that people prefer to minimize short-term pain and risk longer-term hardship than endure short-term hardship for the risk of a yet-unfulfilled promise of longer-term prosperity.
”…Mule isn’t among them. We’ve discussed this in the past. His only desire is to have the quantity of dollars remain constant. It’s structurally easier to do that when it’s tied to a physical item, but that’s more a function of convenience, in his view, than one of necessity.
And, frankly, given how metals move so much relative to other commodities, it’s probably more harmful than beneficial to tie a currency to such a commodity if the only desired goal is to maintain a constant quantity.“
Another accurate read. I’m less concerned about having a precious metal to back our currency to constrain the Fed as I am just having some mechanism in place to maintain a relatively stable, predictable, and sound money supply.
For the reccord, I borrow a lot from the Austrian school — more than any other, without a doubt — but I don’t know that I’d be considered a dyed-in-the-wool Austrian. Sometimes that makes it difficult for me to explain/defend the purist dogma they spew. I think they best understand how markets work and what we can and can not quantify when analyzing them, as well as the role of currency as a medium of exchange, the role of the job market (that it’s more than just an income transfer mechanism), etc. but I have no choice but to echo some of Michael’s sentiment that some of their purist dogma is a bit naïve and/or misguided. So while I borrow a lot from them, in my head I’m thinking more about Muleonomics rather than Austrian Economics, because I’m trying to tweak a few of their more extreme positions into something practical that matches reality (though no doubt many here think I’m still miles from reality, but we’ve been there and done that, so no need to remind me of your warm, fuzzy feelings). -
#369 written by mclever 1 year ago
@Mule
For the record, warm fuzzies or not, I appreciate this more constructive explanation of your views, because it helps me understand much better your position. I may not agree with you, but it’s much easier to appreciate where you’re coming from when I read your last couple of posts as compared to earlier ones.
For example, I can certainly understand the desire for a more stable money supply. Giving some group of eggheads the authority to add/subtract vast sums from the economy has many potential downsides, especially if they screw something up, because small errors can be magnified on a grand scale in an economy the size of the USA. However, the question is whether the downsides outweigh the upsides of allowing some monetary flexibility. Seeing the real suffering that happens to innocent people during a recession, I’ve come to favor a Goldilocks approach with limited intervention to minimize those downturns and smooth out the bumps. An economy that burns either too hot or too cold is trouble in the long run. -
Mule,
I think the difference lies in how close you and I (and others) perceive the proverbial cliff to be.
Probably.
nor do I think many others know, whether it be esteemed academics like Krugman or those from the Austrian School like Murphy, exactly where that tipping point is
There are an awful lot of people who seem to subscribe to the “100% of GDP” number as if it were some magical cliff. The only hard boundary is one of debt service, which is dependent upon interest rates (and it’s the less predictable nature of interest rates that makes it impossible to know exactly where that tipping point is). We’re blessed right now with remarkably low interest rates on issued debt, which permits a larger debt to be accrued. Naturally, if interest rates were to return to the 1982 levels, we’d be in a world of hurt. That’s one significant reason why we shouldn’t attempt to carry the debt any longer than necessary to return the economy to health.
But my fear is that we’re fast appraoching the point of no return where there will be a major funding crisis, which will lead to sweeping defaults and/or currency debasement yada yada yada you know the rest.
I have that fear, too, but it’s not because of the quantity of debt. Rather, it’s because we have an increasing number of people who have been sent to Congress who have the intent of creating such a crisis.
I’m less concerned about having a precious metal to back our currency to constrain the Fed as I am just having some mechanism in place to maintain a relatively stable, predictable, and sound money supply.
I’m less concerned about the money supply only because it’s in the incumbents’ best interest not to stray too far on that front. Weimar-style inflation would cause a pretty rapid change in the makeup of our elected officials. Low, constant inflation has a far greater nominal impact than it does a real impact.
I have no choice but to echo some of Michael’s sentiment that some of their purist dogma is a bit naïve and/or misguided.
Go figure…we may agree on more than we disagree. You’d never know it from most of the comments around here, though, would ya?
So, now that we’ve established that the Ideal Economy According to Muleonomics can’t be achieved without a dictatorship, how close do you think we could get within the bounds of a representative form of government?
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#372 written by Max 1 year ago
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#373 written by Armchair Warlord 1 year ago
GROG,
I suspect you’re cherry-picking your data. Looking at chart 3 of the paper your cited, government spending as a percentage of GDP rose substantially over the 1930–1932 timeframe. However, in the context of a massively shrunken economy and a non-shrinking government this is to be expected and does not indicate the adoption of Keynesian stimulus policy. -
#374 written by GROG 1 year ago
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Grog,
Looking at Figure 1 of the paper you linked, it’s clear that the increase in spending between 1929 and 1933 was pretty small compared to what was needed. Take a look at the WW2 spending, which is what actually worked to bring us out of the Depression.
I’d also be curious to see what the money from 1929 to 1933 was actually spent on. Random spending isn’t nearly as effective as targeted spending in particular industries. We saw this during the Bush era, when immense debt did nothing to expand the economy — wages and employment pretty much stagnated, despite recordbreaking deficits.
Don’t make the mistake of equating “increased spending” with “stimulus.” They aren’t necessarily the same thing.
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Grog,
Here’s a good image. It shows that federal expenditures plummeted at the beginning of the 1920’s, and finally returned to pre-1920’s levels only around 1931. In other words, the “Keynesian stimulus” that you claimed for the period 1928–1933 was really just barely getting back to pre-austerian conditions, and didn’t get into additional stimulus until somewhat after that.
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#378 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
Take a look at the WW2 spending, which is what actually worked to bring us out of the Depression.
So all the Keynesian policy that took place during the 1930’s didn’t work very well. It took World War 2 to end the Great Depression.
I disagree that Keynesian stimulus spending ended the Depression. Other factors were involved like unemployment being reduced to 2% due to conscription and personal savings rates that exceeded 25% due to rationing. We bacially had a war time, fascist type government in place and then we thourougly annihilated the rest of the civilized world. You’re not going to read that in text books, but that’s what ended the Great Depression and led the prosperous days of the 1950’s, not Keynesian countercyclical policy.
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So all the Keynesian policy that took place during the 1930’s didn’t work very well. It took World War 2 to end the Great Depression.
Yes. I’ve said that. Republicans interrupted what weak stimulus spending had been done up until that point. Just as they are doing today.
By the way, a quarter million people out of work stopped receiving unemployment benefits today, thanks to Republicans in Congress.
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#380 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
Yes. I’ve said that. Republicans interrupted what weak stimulus spending had been done up until that point. Just as they are doing today.
Interestingly, that’s always the excuse for why Keynesian policy has failed throughout the past 80 years. It wasn’t big enough. We didn’t spend enough money. It was the Republicans fault. We didn’t try it long enough. Basically, always blame something or someone else.
After Keynesian policy failed for more than a decade, it took Austrian economic behavior to end the Depression. It was savings, which Keynesian view as a drain on the economy, that revived the capital markets and triggered the economic recovery during WW2. -
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#382 written by dawolf 1 year ago
Grog
I disagree that Keynesian stimulus spending ended the Depression. Other factors were involved like unemployment being reduced to 2% due to conscription
Despite the fact that this was due to a war, what you have described is the Government spending a lot of debt money to employ people. It happens that they employed them to kill people, but it is still a stimulus. -
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#384 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
I notice that the record personal and business savings rates during WW2 have gone unmentioned. Savings is an anathema of Keynesian theorists. It’s viewed as “hoarding” and a negative drain an economy.
Do you think it was some kind of miraculous coincidence that personal and business savings rates reaching record highs coincided with the end of the Great Depression? What’s your explanation for how that happened? -
I notice that the record personal and business savings rates during WW2 have gone unmentioned.
Sure. People had jobs. They had just come out of a period in which no one had money. They wanted to save some for a rainy day.
Savings is an anathema of Keynesian theorists. It’s viewed as “hoarding” and a negative drain an economy.
You’ll have to provide quotes from Keynesian on that. In any case, it doesn’t impact the argument about whether 98% employment (thanks to public deficit spending) helped the economy. It did.
Do you think it was some kind of miraculous coincidence that personal and business savings rates reaching record highs coincided with the end of the Great Depression? What’s your explanation for how that happened?
My explanation? See above.
I’d be curious to see the context of whatever quotes you can find from Keynesians about savings being “anathema” to a healthy economy. Seems to me that, as with anything else, the effect of “savings” depends on who’s doing it, what the overall state of the economy is, and what sort of places they’re “saving” it in (under the mattress is different from a Savings and Loan which uses the money to build houses).
In any case, since I’m not a Keynesian, the opinions of “Keynesians” on this is of only academic interest to me.
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#386 written by Armchair Warlord 1 year ago
GROG,
Your argument is precisely backwards. Savings from WWII salaries were not kept out of the economy, they were dumped back in fueling the postwar, civilian economic boom that actually ended the Great Depression once and for all. Effectively the Keynesian stimulus continued for several years following the end of massive wartime spending due to private savings (built up thanks to artificially restricted private demand during the war) being put back into the economy towards cars, houses, etc.
Returning to my previous point, government spending did not grow by 88% between 1929 and 1933 (in fact it appears to have been relatively constant as a dollar value) therefore you are cherry-picking your numbers. I suspect, as with the non-growth of government during the Hoover Administration, that the economic collapse of the onset of the Great Depression created the statistical change you pointed to. -
#387 written by GROG 1 year ago
DC,
I’d be curious to see the context of whatever quotes you can find from Keynesians about savings being “anathema” to a healthy economy.
“The paradox of thrift is a central component of Keynesian economics, and has formed part of mainsteam economics since the late 1940s, though it is criticized on a number of grounds.“
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From the same article (emphasis mine):
The paradox is, narrowly speaking, that total savings may fall even when individual savings attempt to rise, and, broadly speaking, that increase in savings may be harmful to an economy.
See the “may” words?
This doesn’t sound like “anathema.” It sounds like, “In certain circumstances, depending on where the money is stashed, it might not circulate in a way that continues to generate economic growth.”
The article also says:
The argument is that, in equilibrium, total income (and thus demand) must equal total output, and that total investment must equal total saving. Assuming that saving rises faster as a function of income than the relationship between investment and output, then an increase in the marginal propensity to save, ceteris paribus, will move the equilibrium point at which income equals output and investment equals savings to lower values.
Your contention that Keynesians universally condemn “savings” as being unavoidably harmful to the economy certainly isn’t borne out by the link you provided.
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#389 written by shortchain 1 year ago
Since the savings rate didn’t spike until 1943, by which time the stimulus provided by the war spending had reached such a level that the economy had taken off, there was no possibility of a “paradox of thrift”. In fact, at that point the savings rate, being in banks which were re-investing it, or in savings bonds, which were funding the war effort, was helping, not hurting.
Timing is so important in economics. Just as Michael keeps saying: deficit spending is good during an economic downturn, bad during a boom. So a high savings rate during a boom is not a bad thing, but a high savings rate during the thirties would have been bad. Luckily, the savings rate during the 30’s was very low (recent bank failures would have had a depressing effect on savings, something GROG may not have realized, but which my grandparents used to allude to frequently — even 20 years later they had a pretty substantial mistrust in banks).
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#390 written by Max 1 year ago
GROG,
Please read the ENTIRE scope of what you cite. You have done this several times, and when the ENTIRE story is told, your citation says something ENTIRELY different that that point which you wish to convey. From that same Wiki article:
The paradox states that if everyone tries to save more money during times of recession, then aggregate demand will fall and will in turn lower total savings in the population because of the decrease in consumption and economic growth.Note the words that are the qualifiers. ” . . . during times of recession . . .” A BIG qualifier. It’s NOT “all the time”!
It’s the same thing as government austerity during recessions. Money NEEDS to be spent during such times to promote demand and thus job creation! And saved, and government debt paid down (which 3 consecutive GOP presidents have NOT done), during good economic periods.
And where was most of the savings during WWII? War Bonds. To help pay for the war. And what were the marginal tax rates during WWII? Topped out above 90%!
Then, as Armchair Warlord points out in #386, the pent-up demand combined with the bonds maturing meant money being spent in the late ’40’s, when the demobilization flooded the labor market. And the post-war recession of that period was short and shallow!
You DO have it backwards.
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Yeah, War Bonds were a pretty cool thing. The government didn’t have the cash to pay for the war. They had to borrow the money. So they sold War Bonds to the US public (instead of borrowing the money from the Chinese, as we would do today). This not only paid for the war, but gave US citizens a stake in the country. It allowed US citizens to invest in the safest investment on the planet — US debt.
This was also considered “savings” for the individuals who bought the bonds. Why “savings?” Because they could cash in those bonds at a later date, and get their money back (with interest). So yeah, savings rates were high. Because the government was going into debt, and selling that debt to the US public.
And what did the US government do with that debt? It employed people. Millions of public workers. The government also bought supplies and manufactured goods from American companies. It was great for the economy.
So to claim that “record savings rates” was behind the recovery from the Great Depression rather ignores most of what was going on.
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#392 written by Mule Rider 1 year ago
“So, now that we’ve established that the Ideal Economy According to Muleonomics can’t be achieved without a dictatorship, how close do you think we could get within the bounds of a representative form of government?“
Only with the emergence of a legitimate and viable, if not potable, third party. One that would be very appealing to a coalition of centrist, independent, and libertarian or libertarian-leaning voters. I’d love to see the political system in operation if there were 3 major parties and each accounted for roughly 1⁄3rd of voters.
How wonderful it would be to shut up Republicans barking about “Obama/left-wing overreach” on some policy matter if it gained near-universal support among a coalition of the left-leaning and centrist/libertarian parties — effectively accounting for 2/3rds of voters — and how wonderful it would be to shut up Democrats/liberals on occasion who bleat about just trying to push through “sensible measures” when 2/3rds of our elected officials stand in opposition (of course, I’m not naïve enough to assume that the centrist/libertarian party would always form a 100% coalition with either the Democrats or Republicans on every issue). All I know is this two-party system — which has devolved into single-party rule in many localities, even up to the state level, as was pointed out above — is not healthy government.
Sorry I ddin’t answer this sooner, btw. -
Mule,
Only with the emergence of a legitimate and viable, if not potable, third party.
That would pretty much require a lot of constitutional reworking that won’t happen. Oh, sure, another party can rise up for a few years, but it will ultimately do so by shuttering one of the two existing major parties, or being absorbed into one of the two.
For what it’s worth, I’d be happy to see the abolition of political parties altogether, since they encourage lazy voting.
But my question was different than I think you read (probably because my words were more general than my intent). Assume for the moment that we’re stuck with Democrats and Republicans…that is, the system we have today. How close can we get to Muleonomics with our current system?
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#394 written by GROG 1 year ago
“So, now that we’ve established that the Ideal Economy According to Muleonomics can’t be achieved without a dictatorship, how close do you think we could get within the bounds of a representative form of government?“
Interesting that you mention dictatorship. After Keynesian policy failed to remove the country from the Great Depression, it took a wartime, command economy to finally bring it to an end.
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#397 written by GROG 1 year ago
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GROG,
I’m suggeating that Keynesian policy did not take place during WW2. A command economy, which required conscription, price controls, and rationing which led to record savings rates, did.
You wouldn’t consider a recession-era government expenditure increase of 8500% (inflation-adjusted, per-capita), much of which was spent on massive expansions of manufacturing infrastructure, a Keynesian countercyclical policy?
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#400 written by GROG 1 year ago
Michael,
I wouldn’t consider rationing, price controls, forcing people to take jobs, savings rates that exceeded 25 percent during a recession, the disappearance of many consumer goods, Keynesian countercyclical policy.
Thanks for acknowledging that Max was wrong when he seemed to claim there was no recession during WW2.
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About Michael Weiss (326 posts)
Michael is a jack of many trades, and master of a few. His varied background includes government and private businesses, both large and small. His experience in the financial services and computer industries has led him to computer security.





Keynesians make predictions. But they have been wrong from the Great Depression up until today.