Austrian Austerity
As we’ve all heard so often from the Austrian School adherents, the proper behavior for government in times of economic downturns is to reduce spending to match the lower tax revenues resulting from the lower amounts of economic activity.
American Republicans, of course, double down on this by suggesting that we should not only reduce spending to match the lower tax revenues, but that we should also lower tax rates to further reduce tax revenues, and reduce spending even further to match that lower amount of tax revenues. But today let’s look at the Austrians. Well, not the Austrians, per se, but rather a nation that has opted to hew pretty closely to the Austrian School of economics.
Yes, we don’t have to merely theorize about what the results would be in following the Austrian model of reduced government spending during a recession. We can make a pretty direct comparison.

Prime Minister David Cameron is shrinking goverment spending
You see, the United Kingdom’s Prime Minister David Cameron has been moving steadily toward the Austrian austerity model since he took the job in 2010. Much of the UK’s citizenry were enthusiastic in support of spending cuts. Cameron’s Finance Minister, George Osbourne, quickly cut government spending by 19 percent. He also cut the top income tax rate from 50 percent to 45 percent. Within a few months, the nation’s economy slowed noticeably. What was the administration’s response? More spending cuts, naturally.
And here we are, a few months after the second round of cuts. Would you be surprised to learn that the UK has gone back into a recession? In fact, it has now eclipsed the Depression era as the worst recovery period in the nation’s history. If you believe the Keynesian countercyclical economic theory, then you were expecting it. If you’re an Austrian adherent, you’re probably trying to come up with evidence that they simply hadn’t followed it closely enough…sort of how many Republicans believe that every GOP loss means that their candidate was so liberal as to be indistinguishable from a Democrat.
The UK now finds itself in a downward spiral. As Osbourne cuts spending, tax revenues are dropping even faster. Even in the rosiest projections, and despite his cuts, the national debt is expected to rise from its current 63.1 percent of GDP to 76.3 percent over the next two years.
The United States economy has more in common with the United Kingdom economy than it has with any other in Europe. Comparing the two, then, where the one major difference in 2010 and 2011 is the Keynesian versus Austrian model, is quite reasonable.
That’s not to say that the single data point is conclusive evidence. There are always local effects that can have additional impact, and introduce noise into the comparative model. That certainly could be the case here. Nonetheless, it’s yet another nail in the Austrian coffin.
It’s worth examining the United States economy during the Franklin Roosevelt years for an additional comparison. The economy showed a few signs of recovery after several Keynesian programs were implemented. Under pressure from Congress, stemming from concern regarding mounting debt, Roosevelt agreed to substantial cuts in these programs. Just as in the UK in 2011, the US recovery stalled. Unlike the UK, however, Roosevelt used that result as evidence in favor of additional Keynesian programs, which he was able to get enacted.
Here’s some food for thought: Republican Presidential candidate Mitt Romney proposes exactly the same sort of economic medicine as that implemented by Cameron & Co.: tax cuts on the wealthy, coupled with cuts in government spending.
Do we really want to follow in the footsteps of David Cameron?
Related articles
- The Austrian School Edge Over the Clueless Keynesians (economicpolicyjournal.com)
- Weisenthal, Again (economicpolicyjournal.com)
- An Austrian in the lion’s den (wnd.com)
- My Fed Speech, The Details (economicpolicyjournal.com)
- Balls Slams Coalition’s Economic ‘Catastrophe’ (news.sky.com)
- UPDATE | The cry of an innocent | David Cameron is disappointed by his “remarkable achievement” (jobmarketmonitor.com)
- Conservative Policies Fail In U.K. (lezgetreal.com)
- The Austerity Myth (spectator.co.uk)
- US economy grows as UK economy shrinks (leftfootforward.org)

This entry was posted by Michael Weiss on April 30, 2012 at 3:00 am, and is filed under Uncategorized. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0.You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.
-
If the US doesn’t rein in spending, our economy will implode. Period.
1) Are you claiming the economy will not implode if we do rein in spending?
2) Are you claiming the economy will improve, stay the same, or get worse if we do rein in spending?
3) How long would you expect to have to wait for the projections in Question 2)?
4) If you cannot answer questions 1) through 3), why should anyone have any faith in your statement about the effects of spending?
5) Most economists are agreed that the current deficit levels we have are unsustainable. No economist is recommending that they continue indefinitely. Do you maintain there are any economists who say we should?
6) You haven’t given us a timeline for the expected collapse. If we can wait, say, four or five decades (I’m exaggerating) before any problem happens, then maybe some other issues can be addressed first. When would you expect this “collapse” to occur?
-
#503 written by Mule Rider 11 months ago
-
#504 written by Mule Rider 11 months ago
-
-
#506 written by shortchain 11 months ago
-
Mule,
I understand your frustration, but there are at least a couple of points worth further examination.It’s absolutely necessary to have a sound, honest, and predictable money supply
Of course. But “sound” and “honest” are essentially qualitative, and based on mere faith. For example, if we were to assume that the government claimed that there is exactly one trillion US dollars in existence (just to make an easy round number), it wouldn’t be possible to prove that there weren’t, in fact, $1.2T in existence. It could be hidden in plain sight. We would have no choice but to have faith in the declared quantity.
Predictability is certainly of great import, but even there we have flexibility without catastrophe. Naturally, the temptation is always there to push the limits of that flexibility, but it’s still not an absolute. And we know that we have this flexibility, because being based on a precious metal inherently created a flexible supply, since people would find more and add it to the money in circulation without bringing the end of civilization.
What gives money value is (to draw from a Baum notion) that we all agree to wear the green glasses. It’s a social contract of sorts, but it’s enough to provide a means of exchange.
What matters, then, is that we don’t do harm to the faith. I agree with you that it is absolutely possible to do irreparable damage to the faith that backs the currency (much like it’s possible to do irreparable damage to the faith that underpins a marriage). As such, it’s critical not to push things too far. Where we disagree appears to be on the boundary conditions of that faith.
Or am I missing something?
-
Mule,
On a related note, any theory should have testable hypotheses. I’d expect the Austrian model to have testable hypotheses, just as I expect the Keynesian model to do so.The most recent test I’d point to is the January, 2009 prediction, which outlined the date of the expected peak of U3, and the rate of decline of U3 thereafter, if the ARRA were enacted. The prediction was correct on the first point, and mighty close on the second. It also predicted the value of U3 during those times, and was incorrect on those points. It appears that the wrong numbers were a result of GIGO (that is, that the unemployment rate was higher than the available data in January suggested).
Might the curve have looked the same without the ARRA? Perhaps, but without a control we’ll never know. We do know that the predicted curve shape was remarkably close to the actual results. So we can chalk it up to either coincidence or an acutal correct prediction.
But, as I understand your position, you also expect something like the ARRA to improve the economy in the short term. You just don’t believe that it is proper to do so. Am I correct?
-
#509 written by dawolf 11 months ago
-
#510 written by GROG 11 months ago
Micheal,
We do know that the predicted curve shape was remarkably close to the actual results. So we can chalk it up to either coincidence or an acutal correct prediction.
It wasn’t coincidence. The predicted curve shape would have been remarkably close to the predicted curve shape of normal cyclical economic recovery following a downturn like we saw in 2008.
But, as I understand your position, you also expect something like the ARRA to improve the economy in the short term. You just don’t believe that it is proper to do so. Am I correct?
I’m not Mule, but to answer your question, yes. If you pump a trillion or so dollars into an economy, it will have a short term “positive” impact. If you take out a trillion or so dollars, it will probably have a short term negative impact. Mule (I assume) and I are less concerned with short term instant gratification than we are with long term economic prosperity. If we had to trade some rough times in the short term for prosperity in the long term, we’ll take it every time.
Unfortunately, our political system doesn’t allow for the long term, therefore our vision is not a reality, I’m afraid. As evidenced by this thread, the instant gratification crowd in America won’t stand for it.
-
After Shiloh, the South never smiled!
After shilohbuster … never mind!
-
So, Grog, it’s your contention that applying the ARRA to the worst recession since the Great Depression was about the same as the “normal business cycle” … whereas applying austerity measures, according to you, would have been quite a bit worse, particularly in the “short run” (meaning what? years? decades? a generation? Can you give us a feel for how long it would take to recover back to something above starvation –level panic?)
After finally recovering from austerity measures, how would your ideal unregulated state differ from modern Somalia, or medieval feudalism? (That’s not a rhetorical question. I’m honestly curious.)
-
-
GROG,
It wasn’t coincidence. The predicted curve shape would have been remarkably close to the predicted curve shape of normal cyclical economic recovery following a downturn like we saw in 2008.
Then either you’re claiming that it is a coincidence, or you’re claiming that the economic stimuli used in previous recessions also caused this shape to occur. See, if you say it’s not a coincidence, then you’re claiming a causal relationship between the ARRA and the shape of unemployment lining up with the predicted values.
So.…..which is it?
If you pump a trillion or so dollars into an economy, it will have a short term “positive” impact. If you take out a trillion or so dollars, it will probably have a short term negative impact.
Right. So, let’s assume that we pump the trillion in when the economy is bad, and take a trillion out when the economy is good. The valleys would be higher, and the peaks lower, right?
-
#515 written by GROG 11 months ago
Then either you’re claiming that it is a coincidence, or you’re claiming that the economic stimuli used in previous recessions also caused this shape to occur. See, if you say it’s not a coincidence, then you’re claiming a causal relationship between the ARRA and the shape of unemployment lining up with the predicted values.
So.…..which is it?I’m saying the curve would have had the same shape with normal cyclical economic recovery. It was no remarkeable chance that the curve happened in the presence of ARRA. It would have happened with or without it. No coincidence.
Right. So, let’s assume that we pump the trillion in when the economy is bad, and take a trillion out when the economy is good. The valleys would be higher, and the peaks lower, right?
Who are the people and policitians in government who are brilliant enough to know how much to pump in, when to pump it in, how high and low the peaks and valleys are or will be?
-
I’m saying the curve would have had the same shape with normal cyclical economic recovery. It was no remarkeable chance that the curve happened in the presence of ARRA. It would have happened with or without it.
So, you’re saying ARRA clearly didn’t hurt.
On the other hand, you’ve said repeatedly that austerity will hurt.It will increase short-term pain.
Pretty clear choice there.
As for the long term — you’re saying that even with stimulus spending, the economy is moving along in a “normal cyclical economic recovery.”
With austerity, we would expect — what? Perhaps, at best, a “normal cyclical economic recovery.” Eventually. Austrians can’t even tell us whether that would take ten years or a hundred. Or what the “recovery” would look like.
In fact, isn’t the purpose of austerity to allow a “normal cyclical economic recovery”? The point of austerity is to not be “inverventionist,” which means you want to let the economy do what it would “naturally” do (but with a much smaller GDP, since you’re removing a lot of government spending, which is a significant part of GDP).
Doesn’t seem to be a powerful argument in favor of austerity, does it? Shrink the GDP, wait for an unspecified amount of time for an undisclosed recovery that would be, at best, the same as doing nothing. Because, after all, the point is to do nothing.
Who are the people and policitians in government who are brilliant enough to know how much to pump in, when to pump it in, how high and low the peaks and valleys are or will be?
It doesn’t take all that much smarts, because you don’t have to hit the number to the nearest dime or anything like that.
American governments did a pretty good job of it for a generation. And American governments are chosen by We the People.
And I don’t think We the People are as stupid as you seem to think We are. I think We can handle the challenge. We did for eighty years until we turned the reins over to those Very Smart Oil Men.
I’d prefer to let the smartest people America can find do their very best, rather than turn it all over to vulture capitalists who don’t give a damn about the country.
The alternative to acting is to close our eyes and let the car go over the cliff while claiming we’re not smart enough to know how far to turn the wheel.
You want to put your foot on the brake, but the road is made of ice. Crash-and-burn over that cliff isn’t an effective economic theory.
-
Here is an excellent chart, going back to 1960, showing recessions, unemployment, employment participation, and ratio of employment to population.
One thing you’ll notice is that the Bush 2008 recession was the longest-lasting during this time period.
Another thing you might notice is that there were major recessions in 1970 (Nixon), 1974 (Nixon), 1981–82 (Reagan), 1990 (Bush 1), and 2008–2009 (Bush 2) with shorter recessions in 1960 (Eisenhower), 1980 (Carter), and 2001 (Bush 2, but only barely — should be given to Clinton for fairness).
In general then, Democrats seem to be less recession-prone.
You’ll also notice that the skyrocketing unemployment rate from Bush 2 (2008–09) was halted almost immediately by Obama’s policies, and has been on a steady decline ever since. The slope of decline is not as steep as after the serious Reagan 1981–82 recession, but the recovery is certainly comparable to most of the others. Anyone who complains that employment recovery is too slow doesn’t know much about history.
Question: What’s the difference from the Reagan recovery? Why did unemployment drop faster after the 1981–82 recession? Three important economic factors leap to mind.
1) The Reagan recession was shorter and less deep, even though the unemployment rate went substantially higher. Bush 2 screwed up the economy far less than Carter did. (And Carter’s short tenure suffered immensely from the Nixon economy.) This meant a bigger industrial base remained in the early 80’s to help boost the economy.
2) Tax rates were much higher in 1983, particularly the top marginal rate. As this chart shows, the top marginal rate was 50% (!) in 1983. This meant the government was able to much more quickly recover revenue lost from the economic slowdown.
3) Federal spending shot upward under Reagan to record levels. That’s called a “stimulus.” Under Obama, federal spending has been flat since he took office and the annual deficit has been reduced by somewhere between $400 billion and $600 billion (depending on whose numbers you believe). Reagan engaged in substantial Keynesian stimulus.
-
Something else you might notice from the chart I linked. After the 1990 recession (the result of the policies of Reagan and Bush 1), unemployment kept going up and didn’t start to come down until about 18 months later. After the very mild 2001 recession (which can reasonably be blamed on Clinton, though some conservative commenters will claim the 9–11 attacks are what screwed up the Bush 2 economy), GWB wasn’t able to to stop the unemployment rate from continuing to climb until the middle of 2003.
Under Obama, the rise in unemployment rate was stopped almost immediately, and has steadily fallen since the end of the recession. That’s a more classic recovery, such as we saw before Republican presidents stopped following Keynesian techniques, beginning in the mid-1980s.
-
#519 written by Max 11 months ago
-
GROG,
It would have happened with or without it. No coincidence.
Those two sentences are mutually exclusive. I do not think “coincidence” means what you think it means. In any case, I believe I understand your position. You believe that the January, 2009 paper was essentially predicting that the sun would rise in the east in the morning. Am I correct?
Who are the people and policitians in government who are brilliant enough to know how much to pump in, when to pump it in, how high and low the peaks and valleys are or will be?
This answer appears to sidestep my question, so I’ll ask again, with a couple of clarifying words:
So, let’s assume that we pump the trillion in when the economy is bad, and take a trillion out when the economy is good. The valleys would be higher, and the peaks lower, than they would have been without those two actions, right?
A simple yes or no would suffice. After that, we can discuss implementation details.
-
#521 written by shortchain 11 months ago
-
#522 written by shortchain 11 months ago
I would also like to point out that, as per an interview with Mark Halperin just yesterday, Romney said that his election alone would help turn the economy around.
This betrays a faith in the confidence fairy, a central pillar of the belief that austerity will make things better (whether the Austrian economists have faith in the confidence fairy I cannot say, although, based on the pronouncements of some true believers, let us say that I strongly suspect them of such a religious tenet).
-
shortchain,
Romney may, in fact, be correct. Republicans have been opposing everything, even stuff that they know is good for the economy. They’ve been doing this because their #1 priority is to defeat President Obama. If they have to crash the economy to do it, they will gladly take that course.
Once a Republican is in the White House, they’ll be perfectly happy to do the things that President Obama would have done, and then to blame him for not doing them.
That’s how they roll.
-
Mule couldn’t answer the questions I asked in comment 502. I’ll repeat them here. I think they go to the heart of the topic.
Mule claimed that if we didn’t “rein in spending,” the economy would collapse (actually he said “implode”, but I suspect it’s pretty much the same thing). This prompted me to ask some questions, the answers to which (or, more accurately, the refusal to answer) leads me to reject austerian (or Austrian) theory:
1) Are you claiming the economy will not implode if we do rein in spending?
2) Are you claiming the economy will improve, stay the same, or get worse if we do rein in spending?
3) How long would you expect to have to wait for the projections in Question 2)?
4) If you cannot answer questions 1) through 3), why should anyone have any faith in your statement about the effects of spending?
5) Most economists are agreed that the current deficit levels we have are unsustainable. No economist is recommending that they continue indefinitely. Do you maintain there are any economists who say we should?
6) You haven’t given us a timeline for the expected collapse. If we can wait, say, four or five decades (I’m exaggerating) before any problem happens, then maybe some other issues can be addressed first. When would you expect this “collapse” to occur?
That these questions are unanswerable makes me think Austrians (or austerians) don’t actually have an economic theory, but rather a moral philosophy. There’s nothing wrong with that. But just as Creationism shouldn’t be taught in a biology class, austerity shouldn’t be implemented as policy.
-
#525 written by GROG 11 months ago
Michael,
I’m on my blackberry today, but to answer your question above, no. Without government micromanagement of the economy, the peaks and valleys wouldn’t warrant shocks injected through deficit spending or austerity. The markets would naturally deal with the peaks and valleys.
Shortchain,
I encourage you to look up the definition of “coincidence” and copy and paste it here.
-
#526 written by Mule Rider 11 months ago
-
#527 written by GROG 11 months ago
-
Mule,
No, Mule simply refuses to answer those questions or engage this topic any further. I’m done with this thread and said as much. It’s time to move on…
Then I’ll save the questions for another thread, next time economics comes up.
Grog,
Economics isn’t a science in the same way biology is. Where is the repeatable experimental verification of falsable hypothesis in economics? The domain of econ is human behavior.
Behavorists are willing to make projections, and supply a confidence factor (or “margin of error”) to them. That’s what polling is all about. You can’t use this argument to excuse not making falsifiable projections.
Further, the argument that “you can’t do experiments” doesn’t hold either. We went over this when talking about climatology. Where are the “falsifiable experiments” in geology or cosmology or astronomy or a host of other sciences?
Falsifiable projections can easily be made in economics. If we do a massive stimulus during a recession and the unemployment rate continues to rise, then we would say the stimulus didn’t work as intended.
You can’t tell us what the intended (or even desired) results of austerity are, even to the decade. That’s not a basis for a rational policy.
-
GROG,
I’m on my blackberry today, but to answer your question above, no. Without government micromanagement of the economy, the peaks and valleys wouldn’t warrant shocks injected through deficit spending or austerity.
The second sentence has nothing to do with my question; I wasn’t talking about warrant. I’ll reiterate my question, in the interest of being clearer:
If government spends more money when the economy is bad, and spends less when the economy is good, would the valleys of the bad economy and the peaks of the good economy be smaller than they would in absence of those actions?
-
#530 written by shortchain 11 months ago
-
#531 written by mclever 11 months ago
@GROG
Economics isn’t a science in the same way biology is. Where is the repeatable experimental verification of falsable[sic] hypothesis in economics? The domain of econ is human behavior.
I don’t want to pile on here, but this comment reveals a lack of understanding of human behavior and the social sciences, or a severe lack of imagination. While I am not an economist myself, I’m married to a professor of political science with a PhD in econometrics. From the many research papers I’ve had the privilege (obligation?) to read as they head out the door for peer review, I can assure you that economics is a science of falsifiable theories being tested by experiment and research. Yes, some economic behavior is predicated on human behavior and individual human choices may seem random, but it becomes highly predictable in aggregate. As with any organic science, it’s not always a matter of simple yes or no, but a range of possibilities. It’s more like biology than you think.
-
#532 written by mclever 11 months ago
@shortchain
And actually, economics is just exactly as much a science as much of biology is. You just have to learn the use of statistics and learn how to deal with variance.
I’d venture that biologists rely on statistics and variance, too. Looking at a field of corn that has just been planted, an agro-biologist might not be able to predict the exact date a particular seed will sprout or how high the stalk will be, but he can predict a relatively narrow date range for germination for 95% of the crop and a fairly accurate average expected height and yield, taking into account variations in fertilizer, water, and insects.
Kinda like predicting the day a newly-implemented economic policy will begin to show its effects and the expected slope and peak of those effects, taking into account variations in other economic inputs…
-
#533 written by shortchain 11 months ago
-
#534 written by Max 11 months ago
No, Mule simply refuses to answer those questions or engage this topic any further. I’m done with this thread and said as much. It’s time to move on…
The horse is still dead! Mule and I are in full agreement! May as well just agree to disagree, because there is no meeting of the minds for whatever reason you want to choose. May as well expect a rabbi to agree with a Wiccan priestess!
-
#535 written by Max 11 months ago
In the standard string theories, strings are assumed to be the single fundamental constituent of the universe. M-theory adds another fundamental constituent - membranes. Like the tenth spatial dimension, the approximate equations in the original five superstring models proved too weak to reveal membranes.
P-branes
A membrane, or brane, is a multidimensional object, usually called a P-brane, with P referring to the number of dimensions in which it exists. The value of ‘P’ can range from zero to nine, thus giving branes dimensions from zero (0-brane ≡ point particle) to nine — five more than the world we are accustomed to inhabiting. The inclusion of p-branes does not render previous work in string theory wrong on account of not taking note of these P-branes. P-branes are much more massive (“heavier”) than strings, and when all higher-dimensional P-branes are much more massive than strings, they can be ignored, as researchers had done unknowingly in the 1970s.
M-theory (and string theory) has been criticized for lacking predictive power or being untestable. Further work continues to find mathematical constructs that join various surrounding theories. However, the tangible success of M-theory can be questioned, given its current incompleteness and limited predictive power.The previous paragraph highlights the fact of untestability of M-theory, much like Austrian School economic theory.
And “P-brain” speaks for itself.
-
May as well expect a rabbi to agree with a Wiccan priestess!
I’ve seen wide areas of agreement between Wiccans and Imams, usually revolving around the need for religious tolerance and the right to follow one’s own path. No one has an answer that is right for everyone else, and that is a vital truth that needs to be recognized.
This is the reason I break with austerians. Since those who advocate austerity cannot (or will not) provide any projections or other testable models, it comes down to an insistence that they’re right and should simply be believed. They predict disaster “someday” if they’re not followed, though are pretty vague about when “someday” will happen (the way we’re never told, even within a decade, when to expect the Apocalypse). We’re told where we can find salvation, after long suffering, but no indication of when these things will come about, or how long the suffering has to last.
I’m more than willing to examine other points of view, and I find a lot to be of interest in austerian faith. But without any testable projections, it doesn’t make for good economic recommendations, any more than preparing for the Second Coming is a good foreign policy.
-
#537 written by Armchair Warlord 11 months ago
Max,
Been reading Not Even Wrong recently, hmm?
If you’ll permit me to go back to an earlier jab I made at Mule, I think the comparison between string theory and Austrianism is in fact unfair. String theory actually attempts to break new ground in physics. Austrianism is better viewed as a cargo cult — its adherents believe that by artificially replicating certain aspects of a healthy economy (balanced budgets, sound money, etc.) the economy can be made healthy irrespective of actual cause and effect. This is really quite similar to South Seas islanders constructing fake runways and control towers in the belief that they could magically summon the US military’s logistical operations to a place by crudely replicating the behavior of the people running the airfields while neglecting everything else involved in the operation.
-
#538 written by Max 11 months ago
-
#539 written by GROG 11 months ago
-
Grog, nearly all economists are incorporating the data from the 2008 crash into their models. That’s what economists do. That’s kind of their business and entire reason for being. I’m sure you can email any university in the nation and ask for information on the research being done to model the crash, and the implications of that research for future economic activity. If you doubt me, give it a try.
-
#541 written by GROG 11 months ago
-
#542 written by Max 11 months ago
How about a scientific model that predicted the crash of 2008?
Wrong tree you’re barking up there! Since there seems to be zero ability of austerity supporters to do more than preach, this recent turn is way off subject.
Neither Austrian nor Keynesian Schools are diagnostic tools. They are medications.
Medicines are used to treat conditions, not predict when the condition will develop. In these cases, the medicine is used to lessen the effects of otherwise normal business boom and bust cycles.
Wrong tree. Anyway, hope you aren’t saying that people were not warning of the coming bust in 2006-07? Because there were. Just as there were in the 90’s, and the ’20’s. Find out what “models” they were using. Just as people were warning early last week to stay away from the Facebook IPO. That boom went bust in days!
Problem is, just as with all bubbles, the “irrational exuberance” overrides common sense.
-
#543 written by GROG 11 months ago
I’m not talking about warnings or predictions. I’m looking for economic scientific models that shows what caused the collapse and economic scientific models that showed the collapse would happen. I’m being told economics is a science no different than biology. It shouldn’t be difficult.
-
I’d echo Max. Lots of economists were saying we were headed toward a recession. Bush denied it for a year. Remember McCain’s “The fundamentals of the economy are strong” just a few days before the collapse? He said that because he was trying to deny the science behind the models that were saying we were on our way to a major recession.
But just because we can’t predict when the next earthquake is coming , that doesn’t mean geological models are useless, or that it’s okay to build your house on a faultline. Just because we can’t predict your next cancer, that doesn’t mean preventative medicine is useless, or that science has no scientific mathematical models of how the body works. We can still say, with confidence, that smoking has a certain percentage chance of causing cancer.
You’re demanding total 100% accurate predictive knowledge. That is neither possible nor necessary for science to advance and be a powerful tool in dealing with the world.
Even without it, scientists make projections.
-
#545 written by GROG 11 months ago
-
#546 written by mclever 11 months ago
@GROG
I believe there’s a professor at NYU (Rubini sp?) who predicted the crash in 2008 and for the reasons of “gambling with real estate in the financial sector” or something like that, but I can’t remember the specifics. I think he also suggested that the “cure” would involve investing in education, infrastructure, technology, and innovation rather than focusing on the financial sector. Perhaps your Google-fu is better than mine and you can find him online.
While I don’t have the models in front of me, I know there are those that predict what happens when money starts looking for someplace to go and when risks are disguised and compounded the way they were with the CDOs and other gimmicks. There are even computer-based models that attempt to capture the human element using “individual smart actors” (essentially AIs) to mimic thousands or even millions of decisions being made randomly with a given set of starting parameters. These and others describe why and how bubble-and-collapse events happen.
But you’re looking for one that specifically addresses 2008 by name and date? Looking for a model that incorporated the new financial gimmicks that started being abused in the early 2000’s and specifically predicted 2008’s collapse would be difficult for a few reasons.
First of all, the nature of the investment instruments that companies like AIG were using to bundle and gamble with real-estate mortgages wasn’t well understood, even by the financiers who were doing it. Therefore, the specific behavior of those types of instruments wouldn’t necessarily be included in the model in a way that you would acknowledge, because the label wouldn’t match your preconceptions. The models that predicted such behavior would be those that typically modeled corruption or moral hazard scenarios.
Second, most academics are producing their models for a more general basis rather than looking at short-term modeling of current events, because the timeline for publication is so long that by the time it’s published those events are already old news. Current events will have swept by, rendering the study moot. Sure, some of those guys are pretty nimble (like the guy at NYU), but rarely will such predictions be published in a peer-reviewed journal, because by the time they would make it to print it would already be years too late. In other words, if someone had a model that could have predicted 2008 and have since conducted a proof-study to show how the events of 2008 fit their model, that study might just now be making it into the journals, if they bother to print it at all.
Sure, they’ll talk about it at conferences or while chatting with colleagues at the university, but it’s not the sort of thing that is likely to end up published in the reference-able manner that you’re asking me for. -
#547 written by GROG 11 months ago
-
#548 written by shortchain 11 months ago
I’ve got your back, Mac. You are referring to Nouriel Roubini. The link will give GROG a starting place, if he is sincere in his wish to examine the economic theories in re the Great Recession. But he won’t find a prediction, before it happened, of when the crash occurred, any more than a physicist will predict, when a rubber band is stretched, precisely to the millisecond when it will snap.
-
#549 written by mclever 11 months ago
@shortchain
Thanks! Yep, that’s the guy I was thinking of.
@GROG
No, that’s not what DC is demanding. He’s just asking for a ballpark of when and how proposed austerity policies would impact the general economy in near and long term. There are plenty of economists who can ballpark the timeline and magnitude of impacts of proposed policies, such as those who predicted roughly how long it would take to turn around job losses and GDP growth with the implementation of the Obama stimulus package in early 2009. But those aren’t going to be published as formal models or studies in scientific journals the way you’re asking. Those reports show up from working economists at places like the CBO or the Fed. And, admittedly, most of those working economists underestimated the 2008 crash, because they were either unaware of the extent or didn’t understand the nature of the financial gimmicks that were being used by large institutions to gamble on re-packaged real-estate instruments. -
#550 written by Max 11 months ago
There’s a commercial out just now (can’t tell you what they’re selling) where one guy asks another about something and the second guy says “so-and-so. Well I’m 99% certain, anyway”. And “99.9999% sure.” Then a third guy says: “So you don’t know”.
What I’ve seen here is one side saying the same thing, in so many words, about current policy. At the same time, they are holding forth a model for which they can’t even state conclusions with a 10% confidence.
The horse is getting rather funky. -
Economist Ravi Batra also predicted the crash of 2008 with stunning accuracy.
And yet DC is demanding that Mule and provide an Austrian scientific model showing how long it will take austerity measures to fix Greece’s economic problems.
Mclever pointed out, that’s not what I’m asking for. She’s right — ballpark estimates, not predictions to the nearest month, or even to the nearest million jobs.
I’ve asked repeatedly — how long do we wait before we can say that austerity measures aren’t helping? I’m not asking how long it would take to repair the patient after attaching the leeches. I want to know how long you leave them on before you decide the loss of blood is not improving the patient’s health.
If austerity measures in Greece and Spain continue to degrade their standard of living, contract their economies, and throw people out of work, how long should they let that go on before they decide to try something else? Three years? Five? Two decades?
Similarly in the United States, we had one (1) half-hearted stimulus attempt, which has so far resulted in over four million new jobs in the last 26 months. Only one half-measure, and since then, we’ve done nothing. In fact, since then, Republicans have thrown a quarter million public employees out of work. How long do we wait before deciding that “doing nothing” isn’t the right policy?
The same people who are pushing austerity, the people who are admitting that, in the short term, austerity would mean a further loss of jobs — those people have the balls to complain that recovery (which is currently dominated by doing nothing) isn’t fast enough. Even though they admit their course would make things worse.
Don’t you see the problem here?
-
#552 written by Mule Rider 11 months ago
GROG,
Just let it go, man. Some people will always insist that interventionism is a better fix than the “invisible hand” and that they (and maybe a handful of cronies) are “amarter than the market.” Funny how quickly we ignore the 1970s and the steps taken to distance ourself from a sound money supply and institute interventionist measures and the pain and misery that caused.
I actually hope they get their wish. More and more I’m hoping Obama wins re-election, Democrats win super-majorities in the House and Senate, and they push forward with policies that I know will break the back of the American economy, proving unequivocally that their policies are utter failures. Once the smoke clears, I sincerely hope that the United States is then broken up into a loose connection of autonomous regions, essentially independent from one another, and that I never again have to call these people my fellow countrymen. To do it now makes me feel little more than shame.
-
#553 written by Mule Rider 11 months ago
“Mclever pointed out, that’s not what I’m asking for. She’s right — ballpark estimates, not predictions to the nearest month, or even to the nearest million jobs.“
I answered these questions already with “ballpark estimates” upthread. If those were satisfactory, why didn’t you say so instead of beating the same dead horse? -
#555 written by shortchain 11 months ago
Mule,
Yes, we got your estimates. I would say they’re more like “league estimates”, rather than “ballpark estimates”, but let it go. However, you have not given a relative comparison of the negative effects of a generation or two of austerity compared with the negative effects of the predicted “implosion”. Because we are pretty darned sure of the downside effects of austerity now, but we don’t know what the effects of that unspecified future downturn.
I know it will be bad, but I don’t know how bad it will be. Go ahead, give it a try and lay out the negative effects of that future national bankruptcy. -
Some people will always insist that interventionism is a better fix than the “invisible hand”
Yes. When my house is burning down, I call the fire department, even if that’s “intervention.”
they (and maybe a handful of cronies) are “amarter than the market.”
Nonsense. You’ve used this line and ones like it before. “The market” is basically a bunch of Bain types who are out for themselves and their cronies. They caused the collapse of ’08 by gambling other people’s money with no risk to their own. I’m not saying that anyone is “smarter” than them. I’m saying that criminals need to be reined in, and that it doesn’t take much “smarts” to realize you need to turn the wheel when your car is headed for a cliff.
Your ballpark estimates (from post 357):
3) How long would it take for the EU economy to return to steady, healthy growth?“
Honestly, it’s hard to tell not knowing the EU economy intimately, but from what I can from the outside looking in, I’m guessing it could take at least 5, if not 10 years or more, for most/all economic indicators to be heading in a positive direction. it’s just hard to tell, and I’m sure it would be different depending on where you’re talking about. Germany probably wouldn’t notice it much while Greece, Spain, et al could be up to 20 years before things look rosy again.So, for the EU as a whole, they need to sink farther for at least 5 — 10 years before we can say whether your suggested measures are working. For Greece and Spain, it could take up to 20 years. Thanks.
Let’s consider an alternative. What if we can improve the economy within 3 — 5 years? We would probably have to continue tweaking things, but we could prevent the valleys from being so low and the bubbles from going so high. The total trend would be increasing wealth and standard of living for all. Greece and Spain could recover much faster, instead of having Depression-level economies for the next generation. And the collapse of 2008 would be prevented from happening again.
Why is that a bad scenario? Is it bad because it requires continued tweaking?
-
Similarly, if we cut US federal spending in order to balance the budget, without raising taxes — in fact, Romney and Ryan want to cut taxes (particularly on the top tax brackets) — that would mean eliminating nearly all federal spending except Medicare, Social Security, the military (which Republicans want to increase) and maybe interst on the existing debt.
That would immediately throw perhaps an additional two million people out of work, eliminate grants so kids can’t go to college, eliminate food stamps and unemployment payments so millions of people would have no income and no food, eliminate public education, eliminate food inspections and CDC so we can have a nice botulism outbreak at least once a year, get rid of the national weather service, and a host of other items. (The Post Office could keep running, because they get no federal funds at all.)
Ryan and Romney want to eliminate Medicare as well, and lots of Republicans want to turn Social Security into 401(k)‘s. This means less medical care and more destitute seniors.
The economic ripple effect would be enormous. The loss of jobs means vastly reduced federal revenues, necessitating further cuts. If people are out of work and have no safety net, that means they’re not buying consumer goods, and that means more poepl will get laid off. And the cycle repeats. It leads to rather vicious spiral.
So the question is : If we follow this plan, how long do we ride the downward spiral before we accept that it isn’t working the way most Americans might want it to?
-
#558 written by Mule Rider 11 months ago
““The market” is basically a bunch of Bain types who are out for themselves and their cronies. “
DC, please explain all facets of “the market” — essentially, and specifically, the price discovery process — for dish detergent, rental apartments, toilet tissue, grapefruits, shoes, frozen pizzas, televisions, go-karts, shovels, sound systems, and light fixtures and describe how a “bunch of Bain types who are out for themselves and their cronies” negatively impact these markets (with citations please) and then proceed to tell us why it would be better for an interventionist body (government, quasi-government, or otherwise) would be better to oversee the supply and demand (and establish market prices) for these goods rather than individuals freely (uncoerced) participating in them. With as many citations and as much evidence as you can offer, plase. Thanks in advance. -
#559 written by Mule Rider 11 months ago
-
#560 written by Mule Rider 11 months ago
“Why is that a bad scenario? Is it bad because it requires continued tweaking?“
The problem is that you’re not actually “fixing” anything.….you’re printing paper and shifting numbers on a balance sheet to make things look good NOW (instant gratification), but you’re steadily eroding faith in the very system (and currency) people use to where nobody really knows what the value of what we own versus what we owe is, and it leads to a meltdown of the entire system. -
-
The problem is that you’re not actually “fixing” anything
Which is my response to those who suggest we merely let the “magic hand of the market” do its thing. You’re not fixing anything. The point of that approach is to do nothing.
But I disagree. What you call “intervention” is fixing things. That’s the point. If something breaks, you take steps to address it. Not only do you repair the damage, but then you do things to prevent it from happening again. That’s the purpose of, say, the banking regulations put into place after the Great Depression, which prevented another similar financial meltdown for eighty years (until the repeal of most of those regulations made another, similar collapse possible). That’s the purpose odf Dodd-Frank, which, while it doesn’t go nearly far enough (we need to reinstate Glass– Steagal at a minimum) at least is a step in the right direction.
You’re right, there is no permanent fix. The perfidy of human ingenuity being what it is, there will always be new ways that people find to mess things up for their own benefit. Which is why 1) any workable system will need constant attention, and 2) the “invisible hand” will always screw the vast majority of the public sooner or later.
-
Mule,
While I think DC’s gone too far in saying
“The market” is basically a bunch of Bain types who are out for themselves and their cronies
(it’s a gross oversimplification, in both senses of the word “gross”), there’s a grain of truth worth considering. As long as there is money to be made by creating opacity masquerading as transparency, people will use it. If it’s done on a small scale, it’s relatively harmless to the economy, in part because of the relative size and in part because the transactions can be undone by the judicial system post hoc. If it’s done on a large scale, it’s extremely harmful to the economy, again in part because of the relative size and in part because the transactions became sufficiently complex that they effectively can no longer be undone by the judicial system post hoc.
The former is the case of a bad transaction on eBay. The latter is the case of combining CDSes with CDOs of CDOs of CDOs…
It’s easy to demand transparency in theory, and much harder to enforce in practice.
-
Yes Michael, nail on the head.
And “transparency” isn’t even enough. “Transparency” only makes a difference if you have regulations who are allowed to use big teeth.
I know the free marketers will say that if things are “transparent,” then rational actors will avoid making bad deals, because they’ll see them and stay away. But that’s just not true. I’d wager that nearly everyone evolved in those CDO transactions knew they were gambling, and didn’t care because it wasn’t their money. The victims (the people whose pension money was being gambled, the people with mortgages who were told, “Of course your house is going to grow in value!”) don’t have the education or domain knowledge to realize they were being abused and conned.
The self-interest and ingenuity of the gamblers means that there will forever be people with lots of money gaming the system for their own benefit, and getting away with it until they cause the next market crash. The decision we as a nation then have to make is, Do we allow the crash to take out its innocent victims, and then do nothing to repair the damage? Or do we step in and help those who were harmed, through no fault of their own, and then take steps to prevent that particular cancer from spreading again?
-
-
#567 written by Mule Rider 11 months ago
“Which is my response to those who suggest we merely let the “magic hand of the market” do its thing. You’re not fixing anything.“
Disqualified.
And the credibility and integrity of this site sinks even lower. Sorry, if you’re going to allow this to be a forum for a babbling fool like DC to spew paranoia, then none of the rest of you really deserves to have your opinions heard and considered either, no matter how logical and reasonable they may seem. -
#568 written by Mule Rider 11 months ago
-
#569 written by Mule Rider 11 months ago
“The decision we as a nation then have to make is, Do we allow the crash to take out its innocent victims, and then do nothing to repair the damage?“
And herein lies the problem in discussing something like this with you.…your default to a “victim mentality.” I’m not saying people weren’t taken advantage of, and for those that were, let’s make our best effort to prosecute the criminal behavior and provide restitution, but you have to get it through your thick skull that far more of the “common folk” you keep defending as “innocent victims” are just as greedy, manipulative, and sneaky as the more recognizable targets occupying a CEO office on Wall Street, and they too need to be held accountable for their reckless/poor decisions. That’s the difference between you and I. You don’t seem to think anyone below some arbitrary income/wealth threshold is greedy or has ever done anything wrong by trying to game the system but I do.
“Mule’s, additionally, is a gross misstatement.“
In what way? When it comes to interventionist measures, do we not entrust those plans to a consortium of elected officials and advisors from academia and the private sector, i.e. “a few smart people and their cronies.” And please spare me the vacuous ‘We the People’ diatribe. -
#570 written by Max 11 months ago
Mule,
Take your own advice and let it go. See why in # 550.
There is really no need to “explain” any of your requests as the history from 1930 through 2000 is self evident for any fool to see. Only by denying the empirical evidence can anyone even question it.
OTOH, for a hundred years prior, the US economy was a series of up and downs, with “Panics” quite prevalent. Eighty years ago, We the People decided “Enough!” and demanded OUR government institute mediation, “medication” as I mentioned above, to cut back on those highs and make those lows more shallow. A distinct minority didn’t like that then, and a distinct minority don’t like it now.
Tough! The social contract that is America’s citizens, by a vast majority, prefer “intervention”. Get used to it.
You can use your (and anyone else also) 1st Amendment rights to advocate otherwise all you want. But, since you, by your own admission, speak of the lack of predictive power or it’s being untestable, and with the empirical comparison between pre-1930 and post-1930, don’t expect a majority of folks joining you.Particularly as they continue to watch the US recovery, slow as it may be, in comparison with the PIGS.
-
Mule,
I notice you didn’t even try your hand at explaining why/how interventionism (or least close monitoring and/or controls) would work much better than the “invisbile hand” with dish detergent, grapefruits, shovels, or any of the other examples I provided. Wonder why that is…
Perhaps because you’re projecting a belief that doesn’t exist. I don’t recall anyone here suggesting that we should have an economy where every facet of every transaction is controlled in minute detail by government. Simple transactions involving two parties and one good don’t need intervention beyond a set of clear rules designed to ensure maximum transparency.
The more parties that get involved in a transaction, and the more complex the good or service being traded, the more complex the rules need to become in order to keep it fair to all parties involved. This is especially important when there are involuntary parties in the transaction.
So, to use the dish detergent example, there isn’t much needed at the grocery store. Truth in labeling, clear definitions of the terms used in labeling, and sufficient consistency in labeling, packaging, and pricing is all that is necessary. And, of course, there needs to be someone to monitor and enforce those rules. Absent monitors and enforcement, the rules are merely words on paper. The monitors and enforcers must be arms-length from the parties involved in the transaction, and there must be enough of them to effectively police the regulations.
But the dish degergent has a supply chain, too, and that supply chain has many parties, some voluntary and others involuntary. It’s upstream that more regulation is necessary, primarily to protect the involuntary parties.
I’d be surprised to find that you’d disagree with anything that I mentioned above, other than perhaps questioning the existence or relevance of involuntary parties.
-
#572 written by Mule Rider 11 months ago
“Perhaps because you’re projecting a belief that doesn’t exist. I don’t recall anyone here suggesting that we should have an economy where every facet of every transaction is controlled in minute detail by government.“
Sorry, but when DC makes very generalized statements that shit all over any notion of the “free market” and “invisible hand,” why should I have to assume that his contempt for those things is reserved to only a handful of things and not the myriad of markets that make up our economy?
Go back and re-read posts 556 and especially 562. He holds nothing back. Those comments are indefensible. He very clearly holds contempt for the “free market” and “invisible hand.” If he really believes it works some or most of the time, he should say so, but he doesn’t, so how am I to extrapolate that that’s what he really means?
I would say he’s one of those typical left-wingers who believes that markets work until he believes they don’t, but reading his screeds against the market, I actually think he’s pretty consistent in believing that no market actually works. -
#573 written by Max 11 months ago
The real basis is that, for 50 years, the system WORKED!
Recessions, and wars, generated deficit spending. In between, the debt was paid down. Until we reached the point where we had reduced a debt that stood at 150% of GDP down to 32% at the end of Carter’s term. Even Reagan used the same policy to get out of the ’82 recession. But then things changed. Reagan CONTINUED to run deficits when the economy improved, tripled the debt by the end of 1988. GHW Bush added another chunk, driving the debt to 62%/GDP by the end of his term. Clinton moved the needle down to 57% by the end of his administration. Then Bush II let the deficit dogs out again, driving the debt to 68%/GDP by the end of 2007 and BEFORE the beginning of the Great Recession of ’08.
I really won’t blame either him or Obama for the debt since, because I see it as a response similar to the ’30’s and ’40’s.
But EVERY GOP president since Ford has driven up debt in good economic times, AGAINST Keynesian policy. Yet so many still listen to their siren song!
That’s the part you actually should be rebelling against! Shouting down the GOP for deficits when good economies dictate paying off debt.
Because, empirically, the policy WORKED! -
#574 written by Mule Rider 11 months ago
-
Mule,
Sorry, but when DC makes very generalized statements that shit all over any notion of the “free market” and “invisible hand,” why should I have to assume that his contempt for those things is reserved to only a handful of things and not the myriad of markets that make up our economy?
Why assume at all? It’s not that hard to ask what the boundary conditions are.
…those typical left-wingers who believes that markets work until he believes they don’t
I’m hard pressed to believe that it’s anywhere near that arbitrary, though it may well look that way to you. The problem here is that, among “left-wingers” are people who believe in pure communism (and such people believe that markets don’t work, period), and many others along a fairly wide spectrum. From what I’ve seen, though, mainstream liberals believe in greater protection for buyers and involuntary parties than do conservatives. When you hear calls for more regulation, the regulations are almost invariably to increase protection for buyers (typically in the form of increased transparency) and/or involuntary parties (typically in the form of behavior restriction).
-
If he really believes it works some or most of the time, he should say so, but he doesn’t, so how am I to extrapolate that that’s what he really means?
Fair enough. The free market works most of the time, for most transactions, particularly simple ones.
The free market clearly does not work in areas such as banking, finance, or healthcare. At minimum, these places need to be heavily regulated, and should perhaps be publicly run.
In most areas of the market, some level of regulation is necessary. For food, as an example, meat inspections and regulations that require honest labeling are vital. Medications as well, and lots of electronics and products such as paint that can contain toxic substances.
What I hold in contempt is the idea that regulations should always be reduced, and that the “free market” will never result in destructive crashes due to intentional manipulation.
I think even most “free market” advocates would agree with me. The differences are only in detail — which regulations are reasonable, and which go too far? But interestingly enough, when I say that, I’ve never had a free-market advocate say, “Yes, that statement is correct — we need some regulations, and our only disagreement is in detail, not in the substance of it. Some consumer protections are needed, and regulators need to have effective teeth.”
The unwillingness of “free market” advocates to have an honest conversation of what is actually needed — their instance at every turn that the thing “holding back” American companies is “too much regulation” — leads one to think they’re advocating near-lawlessness, and don’t really care about the health of consumers or the predatory practices of vulture capitalists.
I’m actually something of a centrist. I’ve owned businesses, and I’ve been a consumer. I’ve also worked closely with entrepreneurs, small business owners, and CEOs of Fortune 500 companies. I understand all those points of view, the good points and the bad points. I don’t want any of them (even me) in a position where they think they can act in their own self-interest without consequences.
So how about it Mule? Are you willing to agree with me — “We need some regulations, and our only disagreement is in detail, not in the substance of it. Some consumer protections are needed, and regulators need to have effective teeth.”
If we can find that much common ground, we can proceed to discuss what makes sense, rather than shouting past each other.
-
For food, as an example, meat inspections and regulations that require honest labeling are vital. Medications as well
More important is the reason why those are necessary. At the point of sale, it is impossible to establish transparency in those areas. One cannot determine at the Safeway meat counter that the meat packing plant was unhygenic to a degree that would cause pathogenic illness. One cannot determine at the pharmacy that the pills dispensed contain nothing but cornstarch, and thus have no efficacy. Moreover, the downstream effects of violations of these regulations are extremely difficult to trace to their source, making it unlikely that the negative effects would result in damage to the suppliers’ reputations.
and lots of electronics and products such as paint that can contain toxic substances.
These are the products that involve numerous involuntary parties in the transaction. And, as above, the negative impacts to the involuntary parties are sufficiently separated from the offending voluntary parties as to give the voluntary parties no incentive to avoid damage to the involuntary parties.
In other words, these regulations are intended to counter cost externalities.
-
#578 written by Max 11 months ago
That’s why the GOP is essentially no better for the economy and is equally condemned
No! Mule, Incorrect statement.
The GOP has been WORSE these past 30 years!
Excepting the last year of Bush II and Obama, GOP presidents preached fiscal restraint and practiced EXACTLY the opposite, driving up debt in GOOD TIMES! The Clinton administration DID cut the debt in good times.
The GOP has been WORSE these past 30 years! No other way around it!
-
Max,
for a hundred years prior, the US economy was a series of up and downs, with “Panics” quite prevalent. Eighty years ago, We the People decided “Enough!” and demanded OUR government institute mediation, “medication” as I mentioned above, to cut back on those highs and make those lows more shallow. A distinct minority didn’t like that then, and a distinct minority don’t like it now.
Precisely. The history of the American economy prior to the 1930s is dreadful. I would like to hear the anti-regulation folks describe why that was, and how they would fix it.
I use the word “fix” on purpose, because Mule objects to “government intervention” on the grounds that it doesn’t “fix” anything. So, what is the “fix” for having an unregulated “free market” that has periodic busts and booms of destructive biblical proportions?
I don’t have Mule’s blind faith in the Very Smart People at the top of corporate ladders who make the decisions that direct the robber-baron versions of the “free market” which existed before the era of “government intervention.” Those Captains of Industry do what they do, and it is what they are supposed to do. They make immense profits for themselves and their cronies. That’s their job, and one shouldn’t fault them for doing it. However, what they do is not always in the best interests of the nation or of consumers.
And by the way — it isn’t “government intervention”. It is We the People deciding that we aren’t going to be screwed. In a democracy, the action of a regulatory body is a function of the free market, because it is the consumers acting in consort to correct an unfair advantage that producers have over consumers. It’s really no different from a consumer boycott, or a refusal to buy tainted meat. It’s just that producers don’t like it when consumers revolt against their predatory practices.
Let me say that again. In a democracy, regulations are not “government intervention.” They are a natural example of the free market in action, as consumers play out their half of the equation.
So yes, I’m a firm believer in the free market. All aspects of it.
-
#580 written by Mule Rider 11 months ago
“Why assume at all? It’s not that hard to ask what the boundary conditions are.“
That was my point. Taking him at his word, it would be an assumption — a massive leap of faith even - that he has any positive feelings towards the free market/invisible hand, and I’m not in the business of mangling what people say by over-interpreting it. Say what you mean and mean what you say.
“Fair enough. The free market works most of the time.…“
Sorry, this is too late. You’ve spewed far too much anti-market rhetoric — in this thread and numerous others previously — that you’re not going to redeem yourelf with a couple of pro-market quips in one post. Your ideas, as well as your very being, are odious and worthy of contempt. You have no credibility and you’re light years from ever getting it back given how deep of a hole you’ve dug for yourself.
“No! Mule, Incorrect statement.“
You missed the point, as usual, and you made the same grave error we’ve discussed previously by myopically focusing only on what party was in office and taking no consideration of the make-up of US Congress and party representation down to the state level as well as any time lags for policies to take effect. You just bellowed for the sake of bellowing because you can’t get your feeble mind around the idea that I (and Austrian economic policies) don’t represent the GOP’s economic platform anymore than you do. What a sad, pathetic little man you are. -
#581 written by Mule Rider 11 months ago
““We need some regulations, and our only disagreement is in detail, not in the substance of it. Some consumer protections are needed, and regulators need to have effective teeth.”
I’ve made this statement before, or something very simillar, on numerous occasions, and you’ve glossed right over it. That’s why you’re not redeeming yourself with me anytime soon and the reason I hold you in high contempt and find you extremely repellant as an individual. We could not be less alike, and I am ashamed to have to call you a fellow American. -
#582 written by Mule Rider 11 months ago
“From what I’ve seen, though, mainstream liberals believe in greater protection for buyers and involuntary parties than do conservatives. When you hear calls for more regulation, the regulations are almost invariably to increase protection for buyers (typically in the form of increased transparency) and/or involuntary parties (typically in the form of behavior restriction).“
The problem for sensible people like yourself is, Michael, that you let people like DC drive the narrative for “your side.” And you wonder why so many people have such a hard time warming to your many seemingly logical/brilliant ideas? Well, let someone like DC, who claims to be reasonable and smart, spew the same unrepentant rhetoric over and over and over again, and it will turn even the most hardened of stomachs. -
#583 written by Mule Rider 11 months ago
“I don’t have Mule’s blind faith in the Very Smart People at the top of corporate ladders who make the decisions that direct the robber-baron versions of the “free market” which existed before the era of “government intervention.”
Complete mischaracterization of my opinions and why you are worthy of scorn and condescension in this area. See what I mean, Michael? He spews the same garbage over and over and is unrepentant in how distorted, mangled, and untrue it is. I can’t stand it, but at least I know that it gives him ZERO credibility, and as long as this site gives him a forum, it too has ZERO credibility. -
Mule, I know I’ve revealing the weak points in your arguments and your position, when you feel it necessary to resort to substance-free insults rather than respond to the points I raised or the questions I asked. Thanks for the acknowledgement! And I accept your apology.
Complete mischaracterization of my opinion…
You’re free to show me where.
““We need some regulations, and our only disagreement is in detail, not in the substance of it. Some consumer protections are needed, and regulators need to have effective teeth.”
I’ve made this statement before, or something very simillar, on numerous occasions…Good! We’ve got a basis for agreement. I trust you’ll stop mischaracterizing my opinions now — and Keynesian economic theory, and Keynesians in general (I’m not one, but can recognize when they’re being misrepresented) — and perhaps we can have an actual conversation on the proper roles of regulation and the proper extent of what you call “government intrusion.”
-
Mule, it really takes a certain audacity to accuse someone else of misrepresenting your opinions — or of telling “lies” — when you say things like,
Some people will always insist that interventionism is a better fix than the “invisible hand” and that they (and maybe a handful of cronies) are “smarter than the market.”
This meme seem to be a common one among conservatives (and among the Austrians I’ve read) — that the people they disagree with think they are “smarter than the market.” That’s not the point, and is a complete mischaracterization. If you’re interested in reality, let me know, and we can discuss it further.
-
#586 written by Max 11 months ago
Mule,
Are you, or are you not, so ignorant of the US Constitution that you do not know that, irrespective of WHAT a Congress does, it’s the PRESIDENT who signs legislation, INCLUDING BUDGET legislation, into LAW?
I’ll answer that, myself. You are NOT that ignorant!
So don’t play the fool with me. And not need to try to get all ad hominem with me, I’ll get EXACTLY as snotty, and as deep in the gutter, as you.
Sad and pathetic and feeble minded asses as yourself, stooping to such depths because they are incapable of making a decent, logical argument, earn not a damned thing other than demonstrating that sad and pathetic lack of capability.
So back off your dumbass comments, get outta my face, and go back to making the cogent arguments you are capable of making instead of the shit-slinging! Else I might have to get all over you like a Peabody duck on a June bug!
-
#587 written by Mule Rider 11 months ago
“You’re free to show me where.“
You suggested that I trust the “robber barons” and “captains of industry” to control our fate when I’ve said repeatedly that’s not the case and that Big Business should be treated with just as much skepticism and circumspection as government.
So by saying it, you are lying and presenting a mischaracterization of my position. But you don’t care about the truth, only advancing your twisted and despicable agenda. -
#588 written by Mule Rider 11 months ago
-
Thanks for the explanation, Mule.
Perhaps now you can understand how damn offensive it is when you spout your miserable BS about “smarter than the market.” That’s a piece of right-wing propaganda, and has nothing whatever to do with anyone else’s actual opinion.
It’s not a matter of being “smarter” than anything. And I said that several times in this thread.
In point of fact, since “the market” is not a person, it is neither smart nor dumb. The need to inject stimulus spending into the economy during a recession has nothing to do with being “smarter” than anything or anyone else, anymore than putting out the fire in a house burning from a lightening strike means you think you’re “smarter” than God.
So by saying it, you are lying and presenting a mischaracterization of my position. But you don’t care about the truth, only advancing your twisted and despicable agenda.
-
-
#592 written by Mule Rider 11 months ago
“ But you don’t care about the truth, only advancing your twisted and despicable agenda.“
You don’t understand the first thing about economics or economic principles. You don’t know the lingo. You don’t have the first clue of what my “agenda” is. Your opinions are invalid and lack credibility. Period. -
AW:
Mule recognizes that I am poking holes in his belief system. He also is self-aware enough to know that he has no actual answers to those pokes. His only options are 1) to decline to respond (which allows my objections to stand) or 2) to insult (which he hopes will furnish an ad hominem argument that will prevent readers from realizing that his position has no substance).
If he has a substantial argument to present, I hope he does so. If not, I accept his surrender.
-
#595 written by Mule Rider 11 months ago
“If he has a substantial argument to present, I hope he does so. If not, I accept his surrender.“
Funny how it’s defensible for Krugman to ignore having a debate with Murphy — evidently because Murphy is a know-nothing stooge who’s already discredited and whose ideas are unworthy of further discussion — but I hold your inane rants in the same regard and I’m the one who’s surrendering?
I’ll gladly accept that surrender to you if it means acknowledging Krugman’s ignoring of Murphy means the same thing.….that Murphy has poked holes in and eviscerated Krugman’s entire argument. So the ball’s in your court. Be consistent for a change and tell me what you prefer. Either I surrender to you — which is pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things — and you acknowledge Krugman has surrendered the argument to Murphy.…or ignoring opposing opinions is a legitimate out? I eagerly await your weaselly answer explaining how it’s okay for Krugman to ignore Murphy but not for me to keep ignoring you. -
#596 written by Mule Rider 11 months ago
-
#597 written by shortchain 11 months ago
-
-
#599 written by Mule Rider 11 months ago
“False equivalence. You can assume the position Krugman takes vis a vis Murphy at exactly the moment you win a Nobel prize. (Or any other prize, for that matter.) I won’t be holding my breath, so take your time.“
Wrong. You are correct in noting that I have not won a Nobel Prize in economics, but I hold the same credential advantage, if not a significantly larger one than, in the field over DC as Krugman holds over Murphy. Both Krugman and Murphy hold PhD’s in economics. Yes, Krugman has won an adward, but that doesn’t mean Murphy isn’t essentially his equal in terms of academic accomplishment.
I hold a graduate degree in economics and have 5+ years of professional experience in the field. DC neither has the academic studies nor professional experience to justify his economic chops. He merely regurgitates mangled versions of what he reads elsewhere, which last I checked, doesn’t county for diddly in terms of learning or experience in a field.
So the more I think about it, the more I think you’re right. There is a false equivalence. Given the even broader degree in separation between myself and DC versus Krugman and Murphy, I have even more leverage than I realized to dismiss/ignore his vacuous opinions as irrelevant. -
#600 written by Mule Rider 11 months ago
-
You must be logged in to post a comment. - Comment Feed for this Post
- The First Scandal of 2016
- Math Beat Ideology
- Poopyheads!
- Election Watch: Election Day
- Romney’s Tax Plan: You Can’t Get There from Here
- The Romney Plan: Winners and Losers
- Reëlection Watch: October 27, 2012
- Faith, Hope and Charity
- October Surprise: Romney Endorses Obama!
- Reëlection Watch: October 20, 2012
About Michael Weiss (322 posts)
Michael is a jack of many trades, and master of a few. His varied background includes government and private businesses, both large and small. His experience in the financial services and computer industries has led him to computer security.






“The first shot of the Civil War was fired on Fort Sumter by Confederate troops. Abe Lincoln wasn’t even holding a gun at the time.“
This kind of garbage almost makes me laugh uncontrollably until I remember a living, breathing, and supposedly intellectual human is actually making this statement and spewing hypocrisy in unrepentant fashion.
So you want to heap tons of credit/praise on Obama for the “bin Laden decision” when he was nowhere around (and certainly not with a gun in his hand) but Lincoln, in the EXACT SAME position as Obama as Commander-in-Chief, is free of guilt (of being associated as the aggressor in the Civil War) because he wasn’t physically there? You’re a lunatic.
By the way, the whole “first shot” crap is a complete misdirection. The Union military was encroaching on Southern interests. You wax poetic about the recent Iraq blunder and decry conservatives who would talk about al-Qaeda in Iraq by reminding us all that al-Qaeda wasn’t in Iraq being bloody/violent until the US came and set up shop. Well, same applies here. The South had no vested interest in engaging the Union militarily, but a conflict became unavoidable once Lincoln ordered military units to encroach on Southern interests.
Maybe a mental midget like you can understand an analogy. Four guys walk into a bar, decide to act a little tough, and back this stranger into a corner while talking a bit of smack and pounding their fists as if they’re going to hurt him. They haven’t done anything physically yet, but they’ve got him cornered and are scowling at him. The cornered man, feeling very threatened, seizes an opportunity and takes a swipe at one of the men, hoping to create a temporary disctration until he can either find a bar stool to keep fending them off or run elsewhere for safety. Yes, he made the first “move” but it’s clear the four men who cornered him were the aggressors. Unlike the revisionist history you’ve been led to believe, the Union was a bully and aggressor and waged an unnecessary war against the South. Period.