It’s Time to Inhale

Mitt Romney in 2007 in Washington, DC at the V...
Shal­low breather

I love this coun­try. I spent my life in the pri­vate sec­tor, not in gov­ern­ment. I only spent four years as a gov­er­nor. I didn’t inhale.

—Mitt Rom­ney, Sep­tem­ber 22nd, 2011

If there was a pro­gram or agency or depart­ment that needed cut­ting, I did it… That skill I learned in the pri­vate sec­tor, and prac­ticed for four years in Mass­a­chu­setts, where by the way I served in gov­ern­ment, but I didn’t inhale. I’m still a busi­ness guy.

—Mitt Rom­ney, CPAC, Wash­ing­ton, D.C., Feb­ru­ary, 2012

Mitt Rom­ney has repeat­edly used this line. He’s still using it.

On this Memo­r­ial Day, it needs to be said. This is one of the most unpa­tri­otic things we have ever heard from the mouth of a man who wants to be America’s Commander-​​in-​​Chief.

Make no mis­take. Mitt Rom­ney is com­par­ing being a pub­lic ser­vant to being a user of ille­gal drugs. It’s a slap in the face to all ded­i­cated gov­ern­ment work­ers. On this Memo­r­ial Day, it needs to be said. Mitt Romney’s laugh line is a direct insult to our men and women in uniform.

Just as bad, he is admit­ting he learned noth­ing from his years as Gov­er­nor. Pre­vi­ous can­di­dates for the Pres­i­dent who are gov­er­nors or ex-​​governors — par­tic­u­larly Repub­li­can ones — were proud of their expe­ri­ence as the chief exec­u­tive of a state, claim­ing that it gave them valu­able knowl­edge which would be use­ful as chief exec­u­tive of the nation. That was G. W. Bush’s claim for Pres­i­dent. Not Rom­ney. He is straight­for­ward in pro­claim­ing that he took noth­ing from his expe­ri­ence as Gov­er­nor of Mass­a­chu­setts, absorbed noth­ing, changed not a bit.

Rom­ney is stand­ing the Repub­li­can argu­ment of 2008 on its head. Rather than crit­i­cize Pres­i­dent Obama for being inex­pe­ri­enced, Rom­ney is insist­ing gov­ern­ment expe­ri­ence is down­right harm­ful for a would-​​be president.

This is a man who claims to want to be in charge of the very thing he den­i­grates  — gov­ern­ment. It’s akin to a mob boss run­ning for police com­mis­sioner. Why should we elect a man to the high­est posi­tion in gov­ern­ment if that man detests government?

In mod­ern pol­i­tics, this meme began with Pres­i­dent Ronald Rea­gan, who pro­claimed, “The nine most ter­ri­fy­ing words in the Eng­lish lan­guage are, ‘I’m from the gov­ern­ment and I’m here to help.’” This is a chal­lenge, a denial, a rever­sal of the very mean­ing of the U.S. Con­sti­tu­tion, which begins with the dec­la­ra­tion that “We the Peo­ple” form and con­sti­tute the gov­ern­ing body of Amer­ica. Fol­low­ing Rea­gan, nearly every nationally-​​known Repub­li­can since has insisted that gov­ern­ment of the peo­ple, by the peo­ple, and for the peo­ple, is some­thing to be feared rather than val­ued. The con­cepts embod­ied in the Con­sti­tu­tion drove the rea­sons our coun­try was cre­ated. Rea­gan­ism is a denial of America.

The prob­lem here is that, prior to the rebel­lion of 1776, gov­ern­ments were not con­sti­tuted of the peo­ple. The most pow­er­ful slo­gan of the Boston Tea Party — “No Tax­a­tion With­out Rep­re­sen­ta­tion” — had far more to do with rep­re­sen­ta­tion than with tax­a­tion. The Amer­i­can rev­o­lu­tion­ar­ies rec­og­nized the need for tax­a­tion to fund the func­tions of gov­ern­ment. That’s why the Con­sti­tu­tion gives Con­gress the power to tax. “The func­tions of gov­ern­ment” is a phrase that prop­erly means “any­thing The Peo­ple decide it means”. The pur­pose of Amer­ica is to allow The Peo­ple to chose their own fate.

Before Amer­ica, gov­ern­ments were con­structed from the cronies of con­querors, or reli­gious zealots, or both. Kings ruled. Peas­ants obeyed. Nobles prof­ited. The Rul­ing Class ruled by divine right.

The point of Amer­ica, for bet­ter or worse, was that The Peo­ple chose to rule them­selves. Some­times The Peo­ple make mis­takes. That may not be ideal, but no God…no King…no oli­garchy should have the power to steal from The Peo­ple the right of self-​​rule. That is the mean­ing of America.

Romney’s ver­sion of Rea­gan­ism is a rever­sal of that vision. It’s under­stand­able in a way. Mitt Rom­ney was raised as a wealthy and priv­i­leged son of immensely wealthy and suc­cess­ful par­ents. The the­ory of social Dar­win­ism pro­claims that those who are suc­cess­ful deserve to be suc­cess­ful — that is appar­ent in the fact that they suc­ceeded. Those who fail and are needy deserve to starve — if they had worth, they would find a way to sur­vive. The wealthy are cho­sen by God. The poor con­demn them­selves. Amer­ica, in this view, should prop­erly be ruled by God’s chosen.

We see this idea, more sub­tly expressed, in the con­dem­na­tion of “wel­fare queens” who drive Cadil­lacs, and peo­ple who use  food stamps or draw unem­ploy­ment ben­e­fits, and even retired elders on Social Secu­rity. All of these free­load­ers should have planned for them­selves. Every human being is an island. In this way of think­ing, “We the Peo­ple” has no real mean­ing; rather, our nation is about “Me the Person”.

In his laugh line about declin­ing to “inhale,” Mitt Rom­ney is hear­ken­ing back to Pres­i­dent Bill Clin­ton, who admit­ted that he smoked mar­i­juana in col­lege, but claimed he “didn’t inhale.” Rom­ney wants to admit that he spent some time in gov­ern­ment, but deny that this time had any effect on him. Rom­ney is run­ning against the whole idea of gov­ern­ment, as if elected offi­cials should really spend their time play­ing check­ers rather than doing The People’s business.

Of all the pan­der­ing and lies and mis­rep­re­sen­ta­tions and Orwellian newspeak that Repub­li­cans com­mit, this is one that offends me most. Mitt Rom­ney wants to con­vince Amer­ica that, because he thinks gov­ern­ment is evil, he should be the high­est elected offi­cial in our  gov­ern­ment. In that posi­tion, I would rather have some­one who cares about The Peo­ple. But maybe that’s just me.

I want a Pres­i­dent who thinks that gov­ern­ing our nation is about…gov­ern­ing our nation. I don’t par­tic­u­larly want a Pres­i­dent who learned noth­ing from gov­ern­ing a state, who thinks that America’s pur­pose is pro­vid­ing prof­its to investors. That was the Bain Cap­i­tal model. Rom­ney proudly insists that he has not been pulled away from that. I will take him at his word.

We need a pres­i­dent who under­stands that gov­ern­ing has to do with gov­er­nance, not profit. It’s time to inhale.




Leave a Reply

  1. So, do you agree that reli­gious doc­trine should not drive Amer­i­can law, or do you dis­agree with that?“
     
    It’s a very sim­ple yet a very com­plex ques­tion; one I’d have to answer with both a yes and no.  I think reli­gious doc­trine is where many peo­ple derive their moral code, and it is that moral fab­ric that dri­ves so many of us to believe what are inalien­able or God-​​given rights, so it’s almost impos­si­ble at times to sep­a­rate the two and is more than just the “happy coin­ci­dence” than you sug­gest.  But I also don’t think you can leg­is­late moral­ity, either, and enforce a moral code on some­one to have them do things you want so long as they’re mind­ing their own busi­ness and not both­er­ing any­body else.
     
    Btw, DC, while I’m talk­ing to you, I owe you a more exten­sive apol­ogy.  The despicable/​wicked/​evil com­ments were way out of line and over the top, and I’m sorry for that.  I should have been shoot­ing for some­thing closer to “naïve”.….anyway, sorry for the hurt­ful and insult­ing tone.  It was uncalled for. 
     
    I don’t know what else to tell you, shiloh, other than I’m sorry you feel that way and hope you’ll accept my apol­ogy.  I echo mclever’s sen­ti­ment that you have very keep obser­va­tion skills and a com­bi­na­tion of intel­li­gence and wit that impresses me, that is, when you’re just free-​​rollin’ in “polite but witty court jester” mode and not “poke the bear” mode. 

  2. @Mule
     
    I think your point about not being able to leg­is­late moral­ity is an impor­tant one.  As men­tioned on Monotreme’s “Hemp of Your Gar­ment” arti­cle, we already know that Pro­hi­bi­tion doesn’t work, for exam­ple.  And, from a spir­i­tual per­spec­tive, since the person’s heart is more impor­tant than what they do or don’t do, leg­is­lat­ing moral­ity can have the coun­ter­in­tu­itive effect of restrict­ing “immoral” behav­ior while not improv­ing spir­i­tu­al­ity, because the immoral hearts and atti­tudes are not exposed. 
     
    For exam­ple, which shows greater spir­i­tual for­ti­tude?  Refrain­ing from “cheat­ing” on your moral code when “every­one else is doing it” OR fan­ta­siz­ing about cheat­ing and “cheat­ing in your heart” but only refrain­ing because you don’t want to face jail time?  If fac­ing crim­i­nal pun­ish­ment is your only rea­son for avoid­ing a sin, then you’re no bet­ter than a sin­ner, at least accord­ing to my under­stand­ing of Jesus’ teachings…

  3. MR, ad nau­seam apolo­gies aside :D a polit­i­cal blog’s main attrac­tion is enter­tain­ment, imo. As again, no social/​religious/​political prob­lems have ever been solved by blogging.

    Part of my enter­tain­ment the past (4) years has been speak­ing the truth about you ie “our” inter­ac­tion, such as it is. And recently, speak­ing the truth re: the pow­ers that be at this blog. Indeed, I have a keen grasp of the obvious!

    Obvi­ously “we” reached dimin­ish­ing returns some time ago lol.

    >

    btw, it’s obvi­ous to me the pow­ers that be here truly believe their shit don’t stink, which I’m sure is quite annoy­ing to the few con­ser­v­a­tive posters. Soooo they might want to work on that aspect of their per­son­al­i­ties … or not.

    Regard­less, “hope­fully” life will go on totally unaf­fected by what hap­pens here.

    >

    hmm, Maybe this blog should be renamed MeaC​ulpa​.com

  4. Actu­ally, Mule, you’ve got it exactly back­ward.  Reli­gions get their moral­ity from the in-​​built com­pas­sion and empa­thy that we are born with (except for the pathetic indi­vid­u­als who are bro­ken, either by birth or by upbring­ing), as fil­tered through the imper­fect lens of reli­gious lead­ers.
     
    Stud­ies with very young chil­dren show that these qual­i­ties of empa­thy and com­pas­sion are with us from the begin­ning.
     

  5. Mule,

    I think reli­gious doc­trine is where many peo­ple derive their moral code

    As do I. But there are plenty of peo­ple who are not reli­gious, yet have strong morals. And we’ve cer­tainly seen a whole slew of peo­ple who are (at least super­fi­cially) very reli­gious, yet are hor­rif­i­cally immoral. It is this that dri­ves state­ments such as DC’s about “happy coincidence”.

    I also don’t think you can leg­is­late moral­ity, either, and enforce a moral code on some­one to have them do things you want so long as they’re mind­ing their own busi­ness and not both­er­ing any­body else.

    That part I bolded is really the key. Regard­less of the pres­ence or absence of reli­gion in a person’s life, our nation is founded on this prin­ci­ple above all oth­ers. Inci­den­tally, though the Dec­la­ra­tion of Inde­pen­dence treats such a prin­ci­ple as “self-​​evident”, it was shock­ingly rad­i­cal for 18th-​​century Eng­land, where it was any­thing but self-​​evident. To peo­ple in Eng­land, the Dec­la­ra­tion was laugh­able, for those colonists were demand­ing some­thing that cit­i­zens of Eng­land were denied.

  6. short­chain,
    You are about to enter a cir­cu­lar rea­son­ing loop. Do reli­gions get that moral­ity from some­thing in-​​built, or does the Cre­ator build it in us?

    One par­tic­u­larly good rea­son that reli­gious dis­cus­sions don’t accom­plish much unless every­one involved is quite lit­er­ally singing from the same hymnal.

  7. As regards to reli­gion ~ Intel­li­gence leads to logic which leads to know­ing what is truly right and wrong, the Bible con­tra­dict­ing itself many times notwithstanding.

    Although a com­plete idiot can know what is morally right and wrong and intel­li­gence can lead to some­one like Hitler.

    Some­times doing the morally right thing can be quite dif­fi­cult. And again the obvi­ous, The Amer­i­can Civil War didn’t really solve a frickin’ thing, eh.

    Am I still on topic …

  8. mclever,
     
    Great post in #303, espe­cially that sec­ond para­graph.  Very good points that I agree whole­heart­edly with. 
     
    short­chain,
     
    We’ll just have to agree to dis­agree, and I think Michael at least par­tially alluded to why that is in post #307.  It ulti­mately becomes a chicken-​​and-​​egg argu­ment.  If you’re pre­dis­posed to believ­ing in a Cre­ator, you’re going to believe all moral­ity orig­i­nates with Him.  If you’re pre­dis­posed to believ­ing there isn’t one, you’re going to believe moral­ity is innate and peo­ple then pur­sue reli­gious means to express it. 

  9. Michael,
    Excuse me, but I believe that, in order for your argu­ment to have any mean­ing, we would have to assume that there is an omnipo­tent “cre­ator”.  I have some Hindu friends, and some Chi­nese friends, who would take excep­tion to that assump­tion.  Yet they are, by and large, quite moral folks.
     
    So either we have to assume that all the worlds reli­gions except the ones that posit an all-​​powerful cre­ator are wrong  (Oh, and pre­sum­ably all the remain­ing reli­gions, which do nec­es­sar­ily agree with each other, all all wrong.  All but one.) — or that the appear­ance of a cir­cu­lar­ity is an arti­fact of the assump­tion of an all-​​powerful cre­ator.
     
    I invoke the spirit of the Earl of Occam.  And now I have to go.  Some days I would set­tle for just a rea­son­ably com­pe­tent and dili­gent cre­ator, some­one who would make it a lit­tle less time-​​consuming to do what I need to do.
     

  10. shiloh, you’re often amus­ing, fre­quently insight­ful, and I love your snarky sense of humor. But mclever is cor­rect about the per­sonal stuff. As with Mule, you’re most inter­est­ing when you’re least rabid. Come back to the light, lit­tle grasshopper.

     

  11. Michael,

    My rec­ol­lec­tion is that you wish for mar­riage to be a reli­gious con­struct com­pletely sep­a­rate from the civil union. In that sense, I think you’ll find a great deal of com­raderie with the other reg­u­lar com­menters here. In the US, we con­flate the civil con­tract with the spir­i­tual join­ing under the same word.

    This sub-​​topic began with DC’s asser­tion that by deny­ing gays the right to marry, gov­ern­ment is impos­ing it’s will on the peo­ple.
     
    My argu­ment was that gov­ern­ment can­not impose it’s will on some­one by not issu­ing them a piece of paper.  How­ever, gays have every right to enter into a “spir­i­tual join­ing”.
    The counter argu­ment is that that piece of paper rep­re­sents a civil con­tract and that by deny­ing gays the right to enter into that con­tract means gov­ern­ment is impos­ing it’s will on them and deny­ing them the same rights as het­ero­sex­ual mar­riages.  I get that.
     
    But if gays can freely enter into what Michael aptly describes as a “spir­i­tual join­ing” and that arrange­ment is rec­og­nized as a legal civil union which allows the same ben­e­fits of  mar­riage, what legal rights are being denied?

  12. GROG,

    This sub-​​​​topic began with DC’s asser­tion that by deny­ing gays the right to marry, gov­ern­ment is impos­ing it’s will on the people.

    I think his asser­tion was that reli­gious peo­ple were impos­ing their will on the people.

    But if gays can freely enter into what Michael aptly describes as a “spir­i­tual join­ing” and that arrange­ment is rec­og­nized as a legal civil union which allows the same ben­e­fits of mar­riage, what legal rights are being denied?

    That sounds a lot like Plessy v. Fer­gu­son

  13. That sounds a lot like Plessy v. Fer­gu­son

    Not to me.
     
    I’ll ask again,  if gays can freely enter into what Michael aptly describes as a “spir­i­tual join­ing” and that arrange­ment is rec­og­nized as a legal civil union which allows the same ben­e­fits of mar­riage, what legal rights are being denied?

  14. Grog,I don’ tknow the answers to the fol­low­ing ques­tions. They are hon­est questions.

    If same-​​sex cou­ples get the same ben­e­fits from civil unions as from mar­riage, why not call it marriage?

    If you refuse to call it mar­riage, what is it, exactly, that you’re deny­ing to them?

    Clearly, there is some dif­fer­ence between mar­riage and civil unions. You are insist­ing that one of these terms should be used, and not the other. What is it that you wish to deny to same-​​sex couples?

     

  15. Btw, DC, while I’m talk­ing to you, I owe you a more exten­sive apology.

    Thank you Mule. Apol­ogy accepted.

    Some other day, we’ll approach the topic again. I actu­ally think I under­stand your posi­tion. With­out the harsh words, I sus­pect our posi­tions will be closer than you might think. Closer — cer­tainly not the same. But we’ll talk another day.

    Thank you again.

     

  16. GROG,
    There’s that right to refer to them­selves as mar­ried.  There’s also the threat, if there is a legal dis­tinc­tion between the two, that any future ben­e­fits allowed to mar­ried peo­ple would not be auto­mat­i­cally granted to “civil unions”, and also the threat that future leg­is­la­tion could fur­ther cir­cum­scribe the rights of those in “civil unions”.
     

  17. DC,

    If same-​​​​sex cou­ples get the same ben­e­fits from civil unions as from mar­riage, why not call it marriage?

    Who said they can’t call it mar­riage?  Remem­ber, I’m the one who argued mar­riage is not a “legal con­tract”.  You argue it is.  Every­one has a God given right to join into a spir­i­tual union and call them­selves married.

    If you refuse to call it marriage,

    I don’t.  Again, I think mar­riage is more than a gov­ern­ment issued doc­u­ment giv­ing cer­tain prop­erty rights and such.

    You are insist­ing that one of these terms should be used, and not the other.

    No, I’m not.

  18. short­chain,

    There’s that right to refer to them­selves as married.

    Don’t look now, but you guys are mak­ing the argu­ment that mar­riage is much more about a “spir­i­tual union” that it is about a “legal contract”.

  19. GROG,
    No.  Under your pro­posed “sep­a­rate but equal” civil unions, those who have made civil unions would not be able to say they were legally mar­ried.
     
    This has noth­ing to do with some “spir­i­tual union”, which exists only in the mind of the peo­ple involved.

  20. GROG,

    It’s an issue of sim­plic­ity, in part.

    At the Fed­eral level, accord­ing to a 2004 GAO let­ter to then-​​Sen. Frist, there are over 1,000 statu­tory pro­vi­sions that men­tion “mar­riage” and out­line rights and ben­e­fits (some small, some large) that accrue.

    If we were to define a class called “mar­riage but not really because you’re gay”, then we would have to insert that class into each and every one of those 1,000+ statutes. And that’s just at the Fed­eral level; there would, I imag­ine, be a sim­i­lar num­ber for each state. Alter­na­tively, we could go through the list and see which ones are okay and which ones are not, which is where Michael’s “sep­a­rate but equal” com­ment comes in. Miss one of these, even “ben­e­fits for cer­tain ura­nium work­ers”, and you run smack up against the 14th Amend­ment issues out­lined by Judge Walker in his Prop 8 ruling.

    You con­tinue to deny that the word “mar­riage” has a use in our sys­tem of laws, but that denial does not change the real­ity. As some­one who has recently gone through a divorce, I am keenly aware of the legal ram­i­fi­ca­tions of mar­riage and the dis­so­lu­tion of those legal rights and privileges.

  21. Then I’m con­fused. Are you for or against legal­ized same-​​​​sex marriage?

    I’m against it for this rea­son.  It strips the right of my chil­dren to some­day enter into an age old, spir­i­ti­tual and civil insti­tu­tion that has been defined as being between one man and one woman. 
     
    If you think that’s a hate filled opin­ion, then you bet­ter be able to fully sup­port a soci­ety where polyg­a­mous mar­riages and big­a­mous mar­riages (where all par­ties are con­sent­ing) is acceptable.  

  22. It strips the right of my children …

    No grog, it has no effect on your children’s right(s) re: mar­riage. And haven’t heard the Mor­mon deflec­tion for quite some time. Usu­ally it’s the San­to­rum deflec­tion ie beastiality.

    The plain fact is gays have existed since the begin­ning of civ­i­liza­tion er human evo­lu­tion. So try to deal w/​it as best you can.

    take care

  23. It strips the right of my chil­dren to some­day enter into an age old, spir­i­ti­tual and civil insti­tu­tion that has been defined as being between one man and one woman.

    How? In what way are they pre­vented from get­ting mar­ried to some­one of the oppo­site sex? What am I missing?

    Are you sad because they wouldn’t be the only ones sit­ing in the front of the bus?

     

  24. GROG,

    It strips the right of my chil­dren to some­day enter into an age old, spir­i­ti­tual and civil insti­tu­tion that has been defined as being between one man and one woman.

    It does absolutely zero to spir­i­tual insti­tu­tions. Zero.

    As for the civil insti­tu­tion, are you sim­i­larly sorry that you were stripped of the right to enter into the age old civil insti­tu­tion that was defined as being between one man of a par­tic­u­lar race, and one woman of the same race?

  25. I’m sure that what GROG means is that his descen­dants wouldn’t be able to enter into the age-​​old insti­tu­tion by a mar­riage bro­ker, and to then be unable to get out of it for the rest of their lives. That was, after all, the tra­di­tional way.

  26. Michael,

    As for the civil insti­tu­tion, are you sim­i­larly sorry that you were stripped of the right to enter into the age old civil insti­tu­tion that was defined as being between one man of a par­tic­u­lar race, and one woman of the same race?

    Nope.  Mar­riage is defined between one man and one woman.  Not one man of a par­tic­u­lar race and one woman of a par­tic­u­lar race.
     
    Are you also an ardent sup­porter of polygamy?

  27. GROG,

    Mar­riage is defined between one man and one woman. Not one man of a par­tic­u­lar race and one woman of a par­tic­u­lar race.

    Yes, the civil insti­tu­tion is today. But it hasn’t been for very long. It has changed con­sid­er­ably over the past few cen­turies. You are aware of this, aren’t you?

    Are you also an ardent sup­porter of polygamy?

    Ardent? Not really, but I also wouldn’t object if it were legal­ized. So what?

  28. grog, there have been (27) amend­ments to the U.S. Constitution …

    We the Peo­ple of the United States, in Order to form a more per­fect Union, estab­lish Jus­tice, insure domes­tic Tran­quil­ity, pro­vide for the com­mon defense, pro­mote the gen­eral Wel­fare, and secure the Bless­ings of Lib­erty to our­selves and our Posterity …

    As MW men­tioned re: your deflec­tion ~ So what?

    >

    btw, this is why many intel­li­gent folk con­sider Mor­monism et al reli­gions a cult, much like the Branch David­i­ans who were led by David Koresh.

    As your fel­low extreme con­ser­v­a­tives would say, don’t tread on me!

  29.  It strips the right of my chil­dren to some­day enter into an age old, spir­i­ti­tual and civil insti­tu­tion that has been defined as being between one man and one woman. 

    No!!!! That is flat out a piece of horse manure. For which you have nei­ther legal or Bib­li­cal source.

    Even the “spir­i­tual” part is crap and com­pletely ignores Bib­li­cal tra­di­tions the are “age-​​old”. 

    GROG, once again, I can take you BACK to school on the sub­ject and give you chap­ter and verse with a DIRECT con­tra­dic­tion to your state­ment. As I have pre­vi­ously demon­strated, there is NO, ZERO, ZILCH, NADA, NONE, Bib­li­cal jus­ti­fi­ca­tion that states that mar­riage is to be between “one man and one woman”! From Leah and Rachel on down, the truth is there is NOTHING in the Bible that for­bids plural mar­riage. I have quoted for you pre­vi­ously many of those cita­tions, includ­ing the “become one flesh” (remem­ber the whore? 1 Cor. 6: 16 ) red herring. 

    Your chil­dren, your nieces and nephews, your neigh­bors chil­dren, any­one, may marry a per­son of the oppo­site sex, if same sex mar­riage is legal­ized, with all the spir­i­tual fer­vor as you say you and you wife have for one another.

    But for all the “reli­gious” blovi­at­ing on the sub­ject, one thing is absolutely cer­tain: Whomever I marry, whomever your neigh­bor mar­ries, whomever ANYONE else mar­ries, is NONE OF YOUR GODDAMNED BUSINESS! And you have no more right in that deci­sion than I should have in YOUR deci­sion to have mar­ried your wife!


    NONE!
     
    So keep your quasi-​​gnostic, self-​​serving, prej­u­diced, igno­rant nose out of other people’s busi­ness when it comes to the civil law and con­tracts, under which civil mar­riage def­i­nitely falls.

  30. GROG,
     
    Since you are not from the South and you are not old enough to remem­ber Jim Crow and the con­cur­rent days, I will expand:
     
    In the 50’s and 60’s, dur­ing the argu­ments (and polit­i­cal rev­o­lu­tion and blood­shed) over civil rights, vot­ing rights, and “sep­a­rate but equal” laws in schools, restrooms, water foun­tains wait­ing rooms (yes, ALL these things I have first hand remem­brance), one of the lead­ing argu­ments the pro­po­nents of the sta­tus quo was from Gen­e­sis, Chap­ter 6, verses 22–25. The “sin” of Ham in see­ing his Noah’s naked­ness and God’s “pun­ish­ment” of Canaan, Ham’s descen­dants such that would be slaves was used time and time again to jus­tify, Bib­li­cally, the sub­ju­ga­tion of blacks. Good peo­ple. Well mean­ing peo­ple. Chris­t­ian peo­ple. They used reli­gious and spir­i­tual jus­ti­fi­ca­tion for their rea­son­ing for civil law main­tain­ing that sta­tus quo.
     
    Now you can sit there now, in a dif­fer­ent time and place, and say “They were wrong. They took it out of con­text. Their rea­son­ing was faulty.” But IT HAPPENED. And FOR OVER A CENTURY their “reli­gious” and “spir­i­tual” jus­ti­fi­ca­tion influ­enced civil law. And they held an entire race of peo­ple in sub­ju­ga­tion and WITHOUT EQUAL CIVIL RIGHTS UNDER THE LAW!!!
     
    All based on their right­eous belief.
     
    And
    you (and the peo­ple mak­ing the argu­ment you are mak­ing)
    sound
    EXACTLY
    like 
    those
    peo­ple
    did
    50 years ago,

    The same cer­tainty, the same fervor.

    And as THEY were WRONG, so are YOU.

  31. Max, Michael,Mono,DC,
     
    The more I think about this issue, the more I think you are prob­a­bly right.  My views on home­sex­u­al­ity have changed a lot over the years over­all.
     
    My first cousin is a les­bian who has been in a rela­tion­ship with the same woman for 10 years.  They have 2 chil­dren con­ceived by in vitro.  They are both won­der­ful par­ents and we couldn’t imag­ine our lives with­out the two kids and her part­ner. 
     
    They are both rather apo­lit­i­cal peo­ple and have no desire to get mar­ried although they both sup­port legal civil unions.   Nat­u­rally, they have many gay friends and many of those feel the same way towards mar­riage, for what­ever that’s worth. 
     
    But I under­stand I shouldn’t stand in the way of peo­ple who do wish to join into the same insti­tu­tion of mar­riage that I have.

  32. GROG,
     
    May I be the first to con­grat­u­late you for that state­ment.
     
    As hard as you have advo­cated your posi­tion, against with­er­ing and sus­tained attack, it takes a lot of courage to “come out” with a dif­fer­ing view.
     
    Thank you, and, again, congratulations.

  33. Let the record show grog is now inel­i­gi­ble for the pres­i­den­tial nom­i­na­tion of the Repub­li­can party.

    ok, ok, mit­tens once upon a time said I’ll be bet­ter than Ted Kennedy on gay rights!

    Rom­ney also said in 2006 re: mar­riage I agree with 3000 years of recorded history.

    hmm, maybe mit­tens should re-​​check the his­tory of the Mor­mon reli­gion. Oops!

    >

    ok, ok, thru the years Rom­ney has so many con­tra­dic­tory posi­tions on every major polit­i­cal issue it’s hard to keep track …

    >

    And yes, since the evo­lu­tion of gays comin’ out of the closet, just about every­one has a relative/​friend who is gay. And most appear to be as threat­en­ing as Ellen Degeneres! :)

    For the record voted against Ohio Issue 1 in 2004 ~ a bal­lot mea­sure that amended the Ohio Con­sti­tu­tion to make it uncon­sti­tu­tional for the state to rec­og­nize or per­form same-​​sex mar­riages or civil unions. The ref­er­en­dum was approved by 62% of the vot­ers. btw, Kerry lost Ohio by 2.11% er 119k votes.

    >

    Also inter­est­ing Kerry’s cam­paign out­spent Bush in 2004 by a tad, but Bush was an incum­bent, wartime pres­i­dent ie a big advan­tage. I digress.

  34. GROG,

    Thanks for your thoughts. For what it’s worth, I came to the same con­clu­sion through the same route. I think it’s how the major­ity of Amer­i­cans have come to sup­port at least some form of legal pro­tec­tion for same-​​sex unions.

  35. Grog,

    I com­mend you for think­ing seri­ously about this issue.

    I have always known you as a stand-​​up guy, which is why your stand on homo­sex­ual rela­tion­ships both­ered me. I hope that I remain polite and con­sid­er­ate when I speak with you, since you have been one of the most even-​​tempered peo­ple I know.

     

  36. So grog is sayin’ Obama is a leader, Rom­ney not so much. But again, since mit­tens has so many posi­tions on so many polit­i­cal issues, he’s a cer­tain kinda leader er char­la­tan also lol.

  37. @GROG
     
    I’ll just echo what oth­ers have already said. Kudos for giv­ing the issue seri­ous thought, and for being able to admit you’ve changed your mind.  The path you describe towards famil­iar­ity and accep­tance is one that mil­lions of Amer­i­cans (includ­ing myself) have fol­lowed over the past sev­eral years, though our start­ing and end­ing points may be a lit­tle dif­fer­ent.
     
    To every­one else, if we think about it, con­ser­v­a­tives admit­ting that civil unions are OK or desir­able is a tremen­dous change from 25 years ago when only fringe left­ies sup­ported such “extrem­ist gay-​​agenda non­sense.”  (Note: I’m not quot­ing any­one spe­cific here.)  Accord­ing to Gallup, just 25 years ago, only 32% of Amer­i­cans polled thought gay rela­tions should be legal at all, while today that num­ber is 64%.  I may agree with the “sep­a­rate but equal” issues with regard to Civil Unions, but some­times it’s worth­while to step back and look at how far we’ve come just in my lifetime.

  38. shiloh,
     
    Not really. GROG only com­pared him­self with the Pres­i­dent as two peo­ple who changed their posi­tions on this one sub­ject. (As have mil­lions of other Amer­i­cans have done. Includ­ing myself.)
     
    GROG,
     
    In a word, what you were try­ing to describe of the rela­tion­ship between your­self and your wife was “love”. A deep and abid­ing love between two peo­ple who wished only to share that love with one another for the rest of their lives. Not just lust. Not just infat­u­a­tion. Although those are inte­gral to the con­cept. Real love.
     
    It’s that sim­ple, really.
     
    And when two peo­ple find that, in this world with all it’s issues, and want to share each other’s dreams, bod­ies and lives, it should not be dis­cour­aged, but accepted and rewarded.
     
    For all peo­ple.
     
    I have moved my posi­tion on plural mar­riages in the recent past. (Hein­lein got the ball started down that hill years ago) I couldn’t do it, but I have watched Sis­ter Wives the past sea­son, and, even tak­ing the edit­ing that occurs into account, see­ing the inter­ac­tions and the ups and downs, but mostly the love. The final episode last sea­son, the birth of Solomon, was the most enlight­en­ing. The reac­tions of the other sis­ter wives, but mostly those of the other chil­dren, con­vinced me. It’s nobody’s busi­ness but their own, and where love like that exists, it takes really self­ish, igno­rant ass­holes to try to deny them that love.
     
     

  39. I guess I’m the odd­ball. I don’t think my posi­tion has evolved much (if at all) since I hit puberty and so began to gt a grasp on the issues. It’s always been my thought that con­sent­ing adults should be allowed to do what­ev­er­the­hell they wanted, and that love is too rare to stand in any­one else’s way.

    My stand on polygamy (or polyandry) is that it looks like too much work to be prac­ti­cal for very many peo­ple. With a cou­ple, there is one rela­tion­ship (that between the two peo­ple). With three indi­vid­u­als, there are four rela­tion­ship (three rela­tion­ships pairs — A/​B, B/​C, and C/​A — plus the rela­tion­ship that includes all three of them) so the com­pli­ca­tions and oppor­tu­ni­ties for game­play­ing (inten­tional or not) rise expo­nen­tially. With four peo­ple, the num­ber of per­mu­ta­tions gets down­right unwieldy. I leave the equa­tion for the gen­eral case as an exer­cise for the reader.

    If three or more peo­ple want to get mar­ried, I don’t have a prob­lem with that. Why should I care? I just can’t see it work­ing well very often. I also don’t get to decide who has a divorce, or who cosigns for some­one else’s car. Mar­riage is a legal con­tract, and I don’t have the right to inter­fere with some­one else’s legal rela­tion­ships. Mar­riage is also a join­ing of love, and I have no place get­ting involved in that, either.

    Notice, the key is “con­sent­ing adults” — the peo­ple who our soci­ety allows to sign legal con­tracts. What right has any­one else got to intrude either into legal mat­ters, or mat­ters of the heart, that don’t involve them personally?

     

  40. Max,
    My only objec­tion to plural mar­riages is one of how to deal with the over­whelm­ing amount of leg­is­la­tion nec­es­sary to make it hap­pen. The easy part is say­ing that it’s an OK thing to do, but here are some com­pli­cat­ing questions:

    • Let’s say it’s one man and two women. Are the women also mar­ried to each other? Or just both to the same man? This mat­ters because of:
    • Prop­erty rights: if it’s two women mar­ried to the same man, then one of them dying with­out a will would result in all of her prop­erty becom­ing the man’s. If not, then her prop­erty would be equally divided between the man and the other woman.
    • It’s even more com­pli­cated when chil­dren enter into the equa­tion. Say the first woman dies…do the chil­dren of the other woman have any will-​​less inher­i­tance rights?
    • Sim­i­lar ques­tions arise with respect to divorce.

    And tax law would need to change as well, since sud­denly the mar­ried tax law becomes a much more involved process.

    In other words, plural mar­riage is logis­ti­cally a much harder change to make than merely degen­der­ing the titles of the two spouses.

  41. @DC
     
    I’m guess­ing you weren’t raised in an ultra-​​conservative, ultra-​​religious home where homo­sex­u­al­ity wasn’t even admit­ted to exist…  I think I was in col­lege before I real­ized it wasn’t just a lie that some peo­ple made up to dis­credit other peo­ple they didn’t like. Since then my own opin­ions have “evolved” rather dramatically.

  42. @Michael
     
    Trust you to bring up the prac­ti­cal con­cerns. ;-)   Of course, you’re absolutely right about the legal com­plex­i­ties of plural mar­riage in com­par­i­son to two-​​person marriages.

  43. MW,
     
    Not really. And cer­tainly no more com­pli­cated than exist­ing con­tract law applied to con­tracts involv­ing more than two par­ties.
     
    In many cases sim­ply insert­ing terms as “pro-​​rata share”, or “pro­por­tional as to num­ber of prin­ci­ples” in exist­ing law would resolve most of the issues you raise, in terms of dis­so­lu­tion or an intes­tate death.
     
    I believe that, yes, in plural mar­riage (line, as well as polyan­dries and poligamies), all par­ties are mar­ried to each other. In the case of one spouse pass­ing the other two (3, 4, 12) could “divorce” if they wished, or stay together for what­ever rea­sons. Again, pro-​​rata would apply, just as com­mu­nity prop­erty does now at 5050. Same as now with prior sep­a­rate prop­erty. Same as now with chil­dren of a pre­vi­ous mar­riage brought into the new fam­ily.
     
    All chil­dren of the mar­riage are con­sid­ered equally, regard­less. In the case of dis­so­lu­tion, the nat­ural mother of minor chil­dren would have prece­dent over the other wives as to cus­tody, but as now, the court would have final say in the case of con­flict.
     
    I don’t believe it would be any­where near as dif­fi­cult as you imagine. 

  44. I’m guess­ing you weren’t raised in an ultra-​​​​conservative, ultra-​​​​religious home where homo­sex­u­al­ity wasn’t even admit­ted to exist…

    You’re guess­ing cor­rectly. Though I think my par­ents were both as straight as they come, nei­ther had par­tic­u­lar hangups about it.

    My mom, bless her heart, now in her 80’s, gets more rad­i­caly left­ist the more she ages, rather putting the screws to the idea that peo­ple invari­ably get more conservative.

     

  45. Abra­ham hav­ing (3) wives and Moses hav­ing at least two com­pan­ions ;) notwith­stand­ing … accord­ing to the Bible, re: Obama’s lead­er­ship again, what can sway pub­lic opin­ion (36) pts. in two mos. in the African/​American com­mu­nity as to Maryland’s gay mar­riage referendum?

    Obama comin’ out in favor of gay marriage.

    And Max was being face­tious con­cern­ing lead­er­ship, as noth­ing will sway blog con­ser­v­a­tives to say any­thing good about Obama regard­less. It’s how they roll …

    >

    dc, my mom just turned 90 and the more con­ser­v­a­tives hate Obama the more she likes him lol as again, that’s how she rolls. :) btw, she always had the hots for Rock Hud­son and also liked Mont­gomery Clift, I digress.

  46. Max,

    In a word, what you were try­ing to describe of the rela­tion­ship between your­self and your wife was “love”. A deep and abid­ing love between two peo­ple who wished only to share that love with one another for the rest of their lives. Not just lust. Not just infat­u­a­tion. Although those are inte­gral to the con­cept. Real love.
     
    It’s that sim­ple, really.
     
    And when two peo­ple find that, in this world with all it’s issues, and want to share each other’s dreams, bod­ies and lives, it should not be dis­cour­aged, but accepted and rewarded.

    Well said.  It really is that sim­ple and I think that’s the most impor­tant point you made.  Thanks.

  47. Pingback: Logarchism » The Eighth Word?