Illegal ≠ Criminal

Not criminals, says the Supreme Court
Yesterday, the Supreme Court issued an opinion in Arizona v. United States, regarding the legality of Arizona’s SB1070 immigration law. The gist of the opinion is twofold. First, immigration law is the jurisdiction of the federal government, not the state governments. Second, the federal government does not consider being in the country illegally to be criminal activity.
The first is hardly a surprise when you think about it. How on earth can we have 51 different sets of immigration laws without returning to the issues that led to replacing the Articles of Confederation? And, in fact, the main justification to which SB1070 proponents kept returning was that the law did nothing in conflict with federal law. In that sense, the Supreme Court held them to that claim.
That’s where the claim’s fallacy became clear. While federal law criminalized the hiring of people residing in the country illegally, it did not criminalize those who attempted to fill those jobs. Nor did it choose to criminalize being in the country illegally. Merely violating a law does not make one a criminal, unless the law explicitly deems it such.
SB1070 criminalized both being in the country illegally [Section 3 of the law] and attempting to gain employment while being in the country illegally [Section 5(c)]. The Court noted that Congress appeared to take great pains to draw that distinction in federal law, and thus it is a violation of the Supremacy Clause for any state to attempt to overturn it.
This is similar to the way the Court yesterday addressed the writ of certiorari petition for American Tradition Partnership v. Montana, which involved a Montana law that attempted to limit corporate contributions to state campaigns. In denying cert, the Court deemed the Montana law a violation of the Citizens United decision, effectively extending that decision from applying merely to federal campaigns, to now applying to all political campaigns of all sorts within the United States. To this Court, the Supremacy Clause reigns supreme.

Will Sheriff Joe Arpaio test the Supremes?
But the Supremacy clause doesn’t mean that SB1070 is completely invalid. In fact, the Court allowed much of SB1070 to stand. People who are detained by the police (such as at a traffic stop) may be checked for their immigrant status by the police, per Section 2(b) of the law, but may not be arrested if their status cannot be confirmed onsite. The decision made clear that stops must be conducted in compliance with both federal immigration and civil rights laws, meaning that race or national origin may not be used as a criterion for stopping someone. This leaves the door open for further challenges if it is found that officers are routinely pulling people over for “driving while Hispanic”. Arizona law enforcement agencies (I’m looking at you, Joe Arpaio) must take great care in applying the law, then.
Finally, invalidating Section 6, those found to be in the country legally are not permitted to be arrested for probable cause of committing deportable offenses. As with Sections 3 and 5(c), the ultimate arbiter of these sorts of issues is the federal, not state, government.
Because of the civil rights question, I don’t think this is the last we’ll hear about SB1070.
In the end, the Court upheld only the status check provision [Section 2(b)], and struck down the rest. Supporters of the law will want to point to Section 2(b) and claim victory, while opponents of the law will point to the rest and similarly claim victory.
And this leaves SB1070 proponents in an interesting position. Do they consider the weakened “show your papers” portion enough — especially without the teeth of criminalization? (Unsurprisingly, Governor Jan Brewer does.) If so, will they attempt to replicate the law, ALEC-style, in other states? Or do they consider it a defeat, and would then focus their future efforts on goading Congress to criminalize the presence of foreigners in the United States who don’t have proper documentation?
How do you feel about the decision? How do you think Arizona’s law enforcement agencies will apply the law, now that it has been fully decided? And how do you think SB1070 proponents will proceed from here?
Related articles
- Supreme Court strikes down key elements of SB 1070 (azfamily.com)
- Here’s the Supreme Court’s decision on SB1070, the Arizona immigration law. Most of it was struck down, but not a key, controversial element: (shortformblog.com)
- Top Court Rules on Immigration Law (huffingtonpost.com)
- Court strikes down much of Arizona immigration law (scotusblog.com)
- NEW: Most of SB 1070 struck down (abc15.com)
- Supreme Court Rules on AZ Immigration Law SB 1070 (radio.foxnews.com)
- Supreme Court issues split decision on Arizona immigration law (latimes.com)
- SB 1070 — Section IIB Is Uphold & Three Provisions Struck Down (independentsentinel.com)
- SB 1070: Supreme Court keeps Arizona waiting (azfamily.com)
- Online symposium: Supreme Court (mostly) guts S.B. 1070 (scotusblog.com)
- Online symposium: S.B.1070 rides off into the sunset (scotusblog.com)
- Supreme Court strikes down most of Arizona immigration law, SB1070 (trailblazersblog.dallasnews.com)
- Court Throws Out Part of Arizona’s Immigration Law SB1070 (sandiego6.com)
- Supreme Court: Immigration Reform Needs to Come from Congress (cato-at-liberty.org)
- Brewer: ‘Heart of SB 1070′ upheld (abc15.com)
- S.B. 1070: In Plain English (scotusblog.com)
- Supreme Court Upholds ‘Show Me Your Papers’ in Arizona’s SB 1070 (colorlines.com)
- Legal experts weigh in on SB 1070 ruling (azfamily.com)
- Another Anticlimax for Arizona Immigration Law (newyorker.com)
- Arizona vs US: SB1070 Mostly Rejected By The Supreme Court (techfleece.com)

This entry was posted by Michael Weiss on June 26, 2012 at 3:00 am, and is filed under Supreme Court Watch. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0.You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.
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Correct, Max.
Furthermore, police cannot stop someone for the purpose of checking their papers. Nor can they hold someone while their immigration status is checked. The original law allowed the police to hold someone indefinitely if the person couldn’t produce papers on the spot; SCOTUS said the police cannot hold someone at all for not producing papers.
If someone is found to be in the country illegally, the police still cannot hold that person, and their only recourse is to inform the federal immigration people. In other words, SCOTUS allowed local and state law enforcement to coöperate with the Immigration and Naturalization Service, but no more than that.
This is a huge win for the Obama Administration, which brought suit to overturn the law. All that’s left of the law is permission to let ICE handle things, with a stern warning that says, “We’re watching how you do even that.”
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#3 written by Mule Rider 11 months ago
I don’t think the SC decision was the slam dunk win for Obama and loss for conservatives that many (mostly on the left) seem to think. I thought all along that there was a bit of overreach with SB1070, but it was a case of asking for way more than you need with the hope that, even if your request is only partially fulfilled, it’s at least enought to keep you going. Kinda like if a teenager is going out on a Friday night and wants $50 for the evening’s activities. If he asks for $50, the ‘rents might just given him $25, leaving him short. Instead, he’ll ask for $100, an absurd amount, but hoping that even if it’s pared back by half, it would still be enough. Arizona officials trying to do something — anything! — to stem illegal immigration did take a step in that direction with this ruling.
The consensus, though, seeems to be that the provisions that held will be under intense scrutiny to make sure they don’t allow for racial profiling. That’s understandable, but I can just see the complaints of “profiling” when a Hispanic man plows through a stop sign and sideswipes someone and then cannot produce identification/license, registration, or proof of insurance on request and and immigration authorities are contacted as a result. Yes, the whole “driving while Hispanic” stuff shouldn’t be tolerated, but there needs to be some common sense used here when there are legitimate cases to request immigration status.
“And how do you think SB1070 proponents will proceed from here?”
I’ve wondered if conservatives might go back to putting more of their focus into lawsuits against the federal government, and more specifically the departments responsible for handling immigration (such as the ICE) and protect our borders (DHS) for not properly enforcing existing immigration law. Not sure how that would go down or what the “consequences” would even be if they’re found derelict.
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#4 written by rgbact 11 months ago
This is a huge win for the Obama Administration, which brought suit to overturn the law.
Beating the low expectations game isn’t a huge win. I think I actually agree with all pieces, so the ruling seems fine imo. Moreover, the controversial/most important piece that had liberals screaming “Nazi” was affirmed 8–0.…and it seems perfectly reasonable that it be reviewed later for misuse. Can’t make the feds do their job though. So in that respect, this still leaves a nice issue for the fall as its clear Obama doesn’t want to do his.
Obama better be careful about not enforcing the law. He’s setting himself up for one helluva nasty 2nd term (if he somehow wins) if he keeps playing king, as he desperately tries to run against states and not on his record.
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#5 written by mclever 11 months ago
@rgbact
No, I’m sorry, but you’re incorrect. The “piece that had liberals screaming ‘Nazi’” was not affirmed 8–0. It was struck down. Arizona police cannot stop anyone randomly on the street and demand to see papers. They cannot arrest or detain someone for failing to produce papers on the spot. Those provisions were struck down, which were the parts that liberals were most upset about.
All that was upheld was the ability for the police to check immigration status of someone arrested/detained for other reasons, and then to pass that information on to ICE. That doesn’t scream “Nazi” to anyone.
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#6 written by rgbact 11 months ago
All that was upheld was the ability for the police to check
immigration status of someone arrested/detained for other reasonsThats pretty much all we wanted.…so looks like things worked out well. I think Mule maybe right that they asked for a bit more, then ultimately got taken down to what they really wanted all along, and the other side thinks they won. Smart tactic in any negotiation.
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#7 written by mclever 11 months ago
@rgbact
I think you have a misperception of the scope difference between what the law originally did and what remains. They asked for “maybe a bit more?” They asked for a lot more! The original law gave police the right to stop anyone at any time and to detain anyone indefinitely who couldn’t provide a birth certificate and/or immigration papers on the spot. The law criminalized behavior at the state level that is not criminal at the federal level.
All they got left was the ability to verify the immigration status of people already detained for other reasons. They cannot hold someone purely for immigration issues, and can only refer questionable cases to ICE. Furthermore, even the checking of criminals’ status is on thin ice if you read the majority opinion closely. The Court said, in essence, “We’d like to strike this down, too, but can’t until someone actually implements it.”
So, enjoy that “victory,” rgbact.
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#8 written by mclever 11 months ago
@Mule
I would be curious what a lawsuit against ICE/DHS would look like for failure to enforce immigration. Who would have standing to sue and on what grounds? Not saying it’s unreasonable to think that such a case could be brought, but I’m trying to figure out who could bring it. Would a state like Arizona bring the case because the influx of illegals is harming the state social welfare infrastructure? Is that the thinking?
Not sure how successful any such case would be, but the arguments would be interesting.
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#9 written by parksie555 10 months ago
“the federal government does not consider being in the country illegally to be criminal activity”
Remarkably revealing statement in and of itself.
Obama really does seem to be making a habit of deciding which laws to enforce, doesn’t he?
Not an issue for the 40% mouthbreather contingent that breathlessly supports him no matter what he does, but hopefully an issue for the swing voters that have gotten past “Hope & Change” and “the most transparent administration in history”.
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#10 written by Max 10 months ago
rgbact,
Here’s the key point of the SCOTUS “upholding” Section 2(b):
“The Supreme Court left further decisions on this provision open depending on how it is going to be enforced. It is not the final word from the Supreme Court and has been remanded back to the Ninth Circuit for interpretation -…In fact, Justice Anthony Kennedy, who wrote the opinion for the court, said he and his colleagues want Arizona courts to specifically address some of those concerns.
He said, for example, someone might be stopped for jaywalking in Tucson and be unable to produce identification.”
So it is NOT the time to be crowing about a “win”, joining Brewer. The issue is only tolled until the 9th Circuit rules and/or someone claims profiling and brings it back for further review. The SCOTUS only said that “it’s too early” to decide, since the law has yet to be implemented and there yet has been no claim to profiling. It is a common occurrence that the constitutionality of a law will NOT be addressed by an appellate court BEFORE it is applied and some damage is claimed and relief sought.
You cannot claim a damage because of a law between the time the law is signed and before it takes effect. If it’s not in effect yet, you CAN’T be damaged!
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#11 written by mclever 10 months ago
@parksie
I’m confused. The opinion that being in the country illegally isn’t a criminal act didn’t come from the Obama administration but from the conservative Supreme Court. Therefore, I’m a little confused where the rest of your attack on Obama and the “40% mouthbreather contingent” came from, because it certainly had nothing to do with this court decision on the state enforceability of immigration laws.
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#12 written by Max 10 months ago
Yeah,
That John Roberts is, and always has been an Obama lackey!
parksie, my friend, comment #9 was just plain ignorant of reality.
Obama really does seem to be making a habit of deciding which laws to enforce, doesn’t he
Yes he does. As does EVERY LAW ENFORCER! Cops constantly do it. They don’t always give a ticket for speeding, sometimes only issuing a warning, sometimes just giving you a flash of the lights that you notice. They PRIORITIZE! Given the fact that there are not infinite resources for enforcement, prioritization is a CONSTANT.
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#13 written by parksie555 10 months ago
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#14 written by rgbact 10 months ago
since the law has yet to be implemented and there yet has been no claim to profiling
My understanding is the law is already in effect, just some pieces were blocked. Sanctuary cities were banned, hiring day laborers was made a felony,employer sanctions are in effect. Now add in the piece on verifying status of people at traffic stops.….it sounds like they ultimately got many good things and I imagine other states will follow suit. So we didn’t get the public option–big deal.
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Fascinating and really pretty funny.
There are more border guards now than ever before, roughly twice as many as under Bush (who had more than anyone previous to him).
Fewer illegal immigrants are entering the country now than under Bush.
More people have been deported in the first three and a half years of the Obama Administration than under all eight years of Bush.
And yet Republicans are complaining that Obama isn’t sufficiently executing the immigration laws.
It’s clearly just political nonsense coming from the right, simple empty rhetoric. They don’t have any valid complaints here, but htey have to find a way to criticise the President, even if they have to be dishonest (or incredibly uninformed) to do it.
rgbact opined:
the controversial/most important piece that had liberals screaming “Nazi” was affirmed 8–0
It was not. The part that we most disliked was the ability to stop anyone for any reason, demand to see their papers, and hold them indefinitely if they didn’t have any. That part’s gone. The only part that remains is the ability to check idententification if someone is alreadyin custody, and the police can already do that. Additionally, the Court said the only reason they didn’t strike that down was that since it isn’t yet in force, they can’t tell if it’s being abused.
Mule suggested:
I’ve wondered if conservatives might go back to putting more of their focus into lawsuits against the federal government,
Maybe this is a good argument for “tort reform,” and the denial of frivolous lawsuits.
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#17 written by Max 10 months ago
parksie, my boy,
don’t be obtuse. The only reason it even got to the Supremes is because elected Arizona state officials had an issue with Federal “prioritization”
Incorrect.
It got to the SCOTUS because AZ state officials wrote bad law that violated the Supremacy clause of the Constitution of the United States. Not “Maxie’s” opinion, but by the opinion of one of the most conservative chief justices in modern times. Allowing Kennedy as a swing vote, Roberts is the Justice that made the majority vote 5–3. There would have been a no-decision by the SCOTUS had Roberts NOT VOTED the way he did.
Try facts, parksie, my boy. Try some fact, instead of the mindless chatter of GOP talking points.You also overlook the fact that the SCOTUS kicked Montana down on their 10th Amendment stand on the same day!
DAMN! I’d TRULY love to actually DEBATE the issues between right and left, instead of spending the time knocking down inanities, simply and oft repeated, by brain gelded lackeys.
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#18 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
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#19 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
“Fascinating and really pretty funny.
There are more border guards now.….”
What I’m having trouble comprehending is, if all you say is true, how is it that Democrats and the Obama Administration can get away with painting Republicans as xenophobic nitwits who are anti-immigrant and anti-Hispanic?
It’s very clear one of two things is happening here: either the statistics are bullshit or Obama is talking out of both sides of his mouth (see: lying, pandering, etc.) and he and the Democrats are actually the ones who are mostly anti-immigrant and anti-Hispanic.
And I’m still struggling to comprehend how so few people see what I just pionted out (and are willing to call him out for it) and that he seems to have so many millions hoodwinked.
I’ll say this about Obama; he wasn’t kidding when he said they’d be the most transparent administration in US history. My vision’s not all that great but I can see right through him and his non-stop string of bullshit.
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Let’s be honest. It’s only “frivolous” if you don’t like it. And that applies to people on all sides.
To some extent, that’s true, and I’m actually very glad you said so. I was merely parodying a common conservative talking point (I need to point out that don’t think I’ve ever heard you recommend “tort reform”). You correctly point out the flaw in the whole idea of “tort reform,” and I’m happy to find yet another area of agreement.
On a side note, what we do need to do is lean on Republicans in the Senate who are sitting on a record number of judicial appointments. Our courts are getting incredibly backed up, because the benches are going empty, simply out of political game playing.
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What I’m having trouble comprehending is, if all you say is true,
how is it that Democrats and the Obama Administration can get away
with painting Republicans as xenophobic nitwits who are
anti-immigrant and anti-Hispanic?Because 1) enforcement of immigration law is not the only area of interest to immigrants and Hispanics, and 2) no one supports the idea of illegal immigration.
It’s very clear one of two things is happening here: either the statistics are bullshit or Obama is talking out of both sides of his mouth
Actually, it’s the third possibility — that Republicans oppose a very long list of priorities that are important to Hispanics, and Democrats tend to support those priorities. Attempting to create jobs is a big one, and so are a host of issues surrounding minority rights. As one example: which party keeps wanting to declare English as the country’s official language?
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#22 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
“1) enforcement of immigration law is not the only area of interest to immigrants and Hispanics,”
True, and I agree with that on some level, but then again, the way it’s portrayed, each party’s stance on immigration seems to be the starting point, or benchmark, for their perceived interest in supporting Hispanic affairs. I think this is an area where Democrats have done better messaging (read: pandering) but, in practice, aren’t all that different from Republicans.
“and 2) no one supports the idea of illegal immigration.”
First of all, on a side note, I wouldn’t say “no one” as there’s always a fringe element out there that’ll support darn near anything. Secondly, the majority of Republicans and conservatives are simply against ILLEGAL immigration, but somehow liberals have managed to twist many of their legitimate concerns over illegal immigration into them being flat out anti-immigrant/anti-Hispanic. Somehow, if you’re a Democrat or liberal and against illegal immigration, you’re just concerned with the rule of law. If you’re a Republican or conservative, you’re a xenophobic/racist nitwit.
“As one example: which party keeps wanting to declare English as the country’s official language?”
You picked a bad example to make your point. The vast majority of centrist/moderate Democrats and independents I know support this or something close to it. Especially in the unions and vociferously pro-American labor circles.
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parksie,
“the federal government does not consider being in the country illegally to be criminal activity”
Remarkably revealing statement in and of itself.
Obama really does seem to be making a habit of deciding which laws to enforce, doesn’t he?
That last sentence is a nonsequitur. The federal government does not consider being in the country illegally to be criminal activity because Congress said so. Even if Obama wished to call it criminal activity, he doesn’t have that degree of latitude. Congress wrote the law that declared it not to be criminal, and the Justice Department would find any criminal charges filed for such activities to be summarily dismissed.
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Strange thing here…Senator Jon Kyl (R-AZ) issued a press release yesterday saying:
I note that in his response to today’s Supreme Court ruling, President Obama called on Congress to pass comprehensive immigration reform. I also note that the bipartisan comprehensive immigration reform bill I helped draft in 2007 was killed – in part – by then-Senator Obama.
But that’s simply wrong. The bipartisan comprehensive immigration reform bill that Kyl helped draft in 2007 was killed by a filibuster. Among those who joined the filibuster was none other than Senator Jon Kyl (R-AZ). Among those voting for cloture: Senator Barack Obama (D-IL). Don’t take my word for it; the record is right here. So who killed the bipartisan comprehesive immigration reform bill?
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parksie,
The only reason it even got to the Supremes is because elected Arizona state officials had an issue with Federal “prioritization” (as Maxie terms it) of immigration laws.
Perhaps you don’t understand how the judicial system works in the US. The reason it got to the Supreme Court is that the State of Arizona appealed the decision of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, and the Supreme Court agreed to hear the case. That’s how it got there.
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#26 written by rgbact 10 months ago
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rgbact,
Sanctuary cities were banned, hiring day laborers was made a felony,employer sanctions are in effect.
Those were all true prior to SB1070. What changed was the addition of state penalties to federal penalties for the same activities.
The part of the law that wasn’t under review (because of lack of standing to date) is whether citizens can bring suit against law enforcement agencies for the way they choose to prioritize their scarce resources. I hope that doesn’t end up happening, because California’s budget process highlights the dangers of such populist legislative micromanaging.
Now add in the piece on verifying status of people at traffic stops
Which does what, exactly? If it was someone who was driving without a license, they were booked already prior to SB1070. If it’s someone with an out-of-state license, they can’t be incarcerated for it now, while they could have been prior to the decision. What has de facto changed?
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Mule,
What I’m having trouble comprehending is, if all you say is true, how is it that Democrats and the Obama Administration can get away with painting Republicans as xenophobic nitwits who are anti-immigrant and anti-Hispanic?
Messaging. Obama isn’t pushing for English-only education, or denying services to those who are here, or rounding people up based on their skin’s melanin content. He’s getting the results without the “those people come to the country and refuse to assimilate” xenophobic rhetoric.
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by brain gelded lackeys.
Max, that’s the reality as evidenced by this thread ie if you’re looking for knowledgeable conservatives, how shall I say, you may have to broaden your search …
If it’s any solace lol I visited Nate’s site the other day and knowledgeable liberals are still treating Bartles like the blithering fool he is! Although knowledgeable conservatives are annoyed by Bart as well.
And speaking of Bartles, his demigod, Dutch, signed the Immigration Reform and Control Act in 1986, legalizing close to 3 million undocumented immigrants.
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Mule,
I think this is an area where Democrats have done better messaging (read: pandering) but, in practice, aren’t all that different from Republicans.
The messaging is better, but there’s a broader issue of underlying intent. Intent matters a great deal when looking at multiple scenarios with identical results. The example I often point to, in order to demonstrate the point, is the way we handle criminal law in the event of someone dying.
At the highest extreme is first-degree murder. It requires a person intended to cause the death of another in a premeditated fashion.
At the other extreme is no-charges-filed. Sometimes, without any negligence on the part of the acting person, someone else dies.In both cases, the victim is dead. The only difference is the intent of the acting person.
What does that mean in terms of immigration policy? One party’s rhetoric says that the intent is to address the “horror” of Caucasians no longer being a majority in the United States. The other party’s rhetoric says that the intent is to keep immigrants on a level playing field, so that people who come into the country legally, following the rules and process, aren’t disadvantaged by those who come in illegally.
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rgbact,
So he filibustered a bill he helped draft? Seems odd.
Not really. He was initially torn between two different forces within the Republican Party. One is the xenophobic part, and the other is the business part. He opposed the final legislation because along the way language allowing farms (of which Arizona has many) to hire illegals was removed; that no longer left him torn, since both forces were then pushing in the same direction.
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You picked a bad example to make your point. The vast majority of
centrist/moderate Democrats and independents I know support this or
something close to it. Especially in the unions and vociferously
pro-American labor circles.Actually, it was an excellent example, and you helped to point out why.
The Republican Party, through its high-ranking elected officials,keeps calling for English-only laws or an Official Language Constitutional Amendment (and, as Michael points out, tends to engage in jingoistic rhetoric when it does so).
The Democratic Party, through its high-ranking elected officials, keeps opposing these things, sometimes despite the desires of some of the party’s members.
The question was, Why do Hispanics and many other recent immigrants seem to prefer the Democratic Party over the Republican Party? The position of the parties on the question of “Official English” partly answers that.
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There’s an important distinction being lost here.
Crossing the border without valid papers is, has been, and probably always will be against Federal law. Not very many are opposed to this law, and that’s what increasing border guards is meant to enforce.Being in the country without valid papers is not the focus of law enforcement, is controversial, and enforcing such a law would result in so many “false positives” it’s almost certainly not worth the effort. Sort of like conservative darling Gov. Rick Scott found out with both drug testing welfare applicants and removing illegals from voter rolls.SB1070 was aimed at rounding up people who are in the country illegally. The Supreme Court — the conservative Supreme Court — said you can’t do that. It would have almost certainly been a 6–3 decision had Justice Kagan not recused herself. And Justice Scalia’s dissent makes it clear what the three dissenters were thinking, and should strike fear in the hearts of Americans who love Liberty. -
#34 written by rgbact 10 months ago
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Monotreme,
It would have almost certainly been a 6–3 decision had Justice Kagan not recused herself.
Not necessarily. Roberts was obligated to join those who became the majority, simply because to stay on the other side would have rendered a “no decision”, leaving the Ninth Circuit decision standing. That would have been (in the Conservative Justices’ minds, anyway) a worse outcome. Had Kagan not recused herself, it could have easily ended up 5–4, though with ultimately the same outcome as we got.
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For illegal immigration? Could they have been deported? Even if they
were busted for jaywalking?Yes. If a police officer discovers you are in the country illegally, while doing any other sort of normal police work, said officer can notify ICE, and ICE can take whatever action is appropriate. This has always been the case.
If so, not sure why we’ve been fighting
this case then.Because Republicans wanted to go much, much, much farther. They wanted 1) the police to be able to stop anyone who looked Hispanic, and hold them indefinitely, and 2) to usurp Federal authority on detaining undocumented aliens.
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#38 written by Max 10 months ago
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#39 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
One party’s rhetoric says that the intent is to address the “horror” of Caucasians no longer being a majority in the United States.
This makes a very big, and cynical, assumption about the intentions of the majority of that party’s members, while this —The other party’s rhetoric says that the intent is to keep immigrants on a level playing field, so that people who come into the country legally, following the rules and process, aren’t disadvantaged by those who come in illegally.
- makes a very big assumption about the supposed altruistic intentions of a majority of the other party’s members.
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#41 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
“Why do Hispanics and many other recent immigrants seem to prefer the Democratic Party of the Republican Party? The position of the parties on the question of “Official English” partly answers that.”
Yes, and Democrats’ naïveté and unwillingness to stand for American culture and language is partly what gives power/voice to outfits like La Raza. They can spew their anti-Caucasian, anti-English rhetoric because they know one of the major political parties won’t say jack squat to them.
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Mule,
I don’t think Michael’s comment made “assumptions” about the “intentions” of either party’s members. At least, I didn’t read it that way. Rather, he talked about the “rhetoric” of each party, the language they use and the message that language conveys. Whatever the “intentions” are behind that rhetoric is a different topic altogether.
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Yes, and Democrats’ naïveté and unwillingness to stand for American
culture and language is partly what gives power/voice to outfits
like La Raza. They can spew their anti-Caucasian, anti-English
rhetoric because they know one of the major political parties won’t
say jack squat to them.Yes, and Republicans’ cynicism and jingoistic attitudes about American
culture and language is partly what gives incentive/purpose to outfits
like La Raza. They respond to anti-immigrant, anti-furriner
rhetoric because they know one of the major political parties won’t
say jack squat to bigots. -
#45 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
“Yes, and Republicans’ cynicism and jingoistic attitudes about American culture and language is partly what gives incentive/purpose to outfits like La Raza. They respond to anti-immigrant, anti-furriner rhetoric because they know one of the major political parties won’t say jack squat to bigots.”
I guess one opinion in response to another is fair, but all I know is, if thinking we should conduct all public affairs in the English language and being skeptical of people overly sensitive and nationalistic of their Mexican/Hispanic heritage on American soil (http://articles.nydailynews.com/2010–05-06/news/27063738_1_american-flag-shirts-mexican-americans), or those who so far as to make blatantly anti-Caucasian statements and insinuate they should “take back” the Southwestern United States, makes one a “bigot,” then I’m guilty as charged.
I’m sure shiloh will have a field day with that one.
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Mule, my larger point is that extremists (of either stripe) are not the only ones interested in the issue of English-only, and the attempt to paint those opposed to an official national language as being anti-American is as silly as the attempt to paint all who want an official language as being racist.
And even that is embedded in a point larger still, which was that this is but one example of the sort of issue that plays in Democrats’ favor when it comes to immigrant communities or minority communities. Arguing the merits of English-only, or defending the idea as not being bigoted, or attacking a fringe group that opposes it, doesn’t change the fact that such a policy would make life harder for recent immigrants (or even not-so-recent immigrants who value their heritage), which makes the party that supports such a policy less attractive.
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#47 written by rgbact 10 months ago
If a police officer discovers you are in the country illegally,
while doing any other sort of normal police work, said officer can
notify ICE, and ICE can take whatever action is appropriate.I think the issue is that typically they don’t and now its required. Its basically the 2nd item in the entire bill, so it probably fairly important. But I’m confused—you say its standard procedure, then you say there’s a chance the SC will still overturn it.
no one supports the idea of illegal immigration.Thats damn hard to believe considering the giddiness liberals show when they talk about the “browning of America”. I strongly suspect, if you’re a liberal politician in the Northeast—you don’t care a whit if half of Mexico moved to AZ tomorrow.
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#48 written by Max 10 months ago
Mule,
Do you believe, speaking from an American cultural standpoint, that the descendants of Pocahontas and Pontiac and Sitting Bull and Geronimo should have a significant say in US immigration and language policy?
You do know also that St Augustine, founded by the Spanish, is the longest continually existing city, and Santa Fe, also founded by the Spanish, is the oldest capital city, in the United States? Right?
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#49 written by Max 10 months ago
rgbact,
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/11-182b5e1.pdf
It’s the SCOTUS decision, with the concurring and dissenting opinions. Why don’t YOU read it. Then YOU will KNOW what the legal impact and the expected results actually are.
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Max,
Undiluted legalese can be harmful. I strongly recommend this most excellent SCOTUSblog post by Amy Howe, in their “Plain English” series:http://www.scotusblog.com/2012/06/s-b-1070-in-plain-english/
No word on whether it will be translated into Plain Spanish so that Mule can enjoy it. -
Thats damn hard to believe considering the giddiness liberals
show when they talk about the “browning of America”. I strongly
suspect, if you’re a liberal politician in the Northeast—you don’t
care a whit if half of Mexico moved to AZ tomorrow.rgbact, you’re allowed to believe any stupid thing your little heart desires. They even let you vote, despite believing stupid things. That’s the beauty of America.
As for the SCOTUS decision, I agree with Max and Mono. Read a little. Learn something. Wasn’t it you who said it was okay to prevent uneducated people from voting?
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#52 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
Max,
What happened with the indigenous population, while regrettable, doesn’t really apply in this context. And I’m well aware of Spanish influence (not to mention French and a few others) in grafting the country as it exists today. But Spain (nor France) doesn’t own or have any part of the USA now, does it? You guys crow pretty loudly about keeping the United States of America intact as it stands currently and scoff at my quasi-secessionist talk by saying you don’t get to just up and leave and take part of the country with you. Well, if that’s the case, I think it should be perfectly fair that if you come here, you don’t get to bring that country with you in such a way as to supplant the American way of life, and that includes our language and culture. By all means, be proud to be of Mexican, Polish, or whatever heritage, but don’t let it trump your American values.
“No word on whether it will be translated into Plain Spanish so that Mule can enjoy it.”
Admittedly, I don’t understand this little dig at me and am a little confused. Maybe I’m missing something.
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#53 written by shortchain 10 months ago
Actually, if you are of Mexican descent, you have a genetic heritage with more ancient American in it than if you are of American descent. (Studies have shown that, depending on where in Mexico you are from, you may have a majority Amerindian background.)
I’ve heard it often said that “what goes around comes around”. In any case, I find it extremely difficult to understand Americans who get up on their high horse about Mexican immigration.
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Don’t tell conservatives there are American states named California, New Mexico, Colorado, Arizona, Nevada, Florida … speaking of Colorado, if said conservatives find out some states have Spanish origins, their faces may turn rojo!
hmm, maybe this is why Republicans have a San Francisco fetish …
And maybe cons are just pissed NM/CO/AZ/NV/FL are turning more blue daily!
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Mule,
I’m curious. Where, within the 50 states, does “the American culture” exist? I must confess, it seems to me that Americans are rather different from each other, and that there is no one, true, monolithic American culture. Am I wrong? If so, where might I find it, and how many people actually engage in that culture?
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#56 written by Max 10 months ago
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#57 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
“I’ve heard it often said that “what goes around comes around”. In any case, I find it extremely difficult to understand Americans who get up on their high horse about Mexican immigration.”
“I’m curious. Where, within the 50 states, does “the American culture” exist? I must confess, it seems to me that Americans are rather different from each other, and that there is no one, true, monolithic American culture. Am I wrong? If so, where might I find it, and how many people actually engage in that culture?“Surveying both of these comments, it seems like both of you are making the case that there’s nothing sacred about the United States of America as it exists presently. Nothing sacred about the language, the culture, etc. as it all just ebbs and flows throughout time. By extension, if language and culture are so unimportant (at least, a culturally unified America under one language), then by extension, you’re arguing that there’s nothing really that important about the geography.
So what pisses me off nine ways to Sunday are people that get on their high horse about the sanctity and unity of the USA as it exists presently when a few “ignorant rednecks/hillbillies from the South and parts of Appalachia” or “lunatic anarchists from some of the Mountain States” talk about drifting in their own direction when they don’t give two shits about standing up for that sanctity/unity when people immigrate here but aren’t necessarily on board with moving forward in a unified direction. Just gotta love the unending hypocrisy of the left.
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#58 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
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#59 written by dawolf 10 months ago
@MR
“Surveying both of these comments, it seems like both of you are making the case that there’s nothing sacred about the United States of America as it exists presently. Nothing sacred about the language, the culture, etc. as it all just ebbs and flows throughout time. “
Newsflash: there isn’t anything sacred about the USA, including language or culture. Neither is there anything sacred about the UK btw. -
#60 written by Max 10 months ago
Mule,
“Just gotta love the unending hypocrisy of the left.”
Coming from one who has argued IN FAVOR of separation, I’d be careful throwing around that “hypocrisy” handle.
The biggest difference is that many find that there is nothing inherently wrong with the diverse American culture! That the inherent diversity is WHAT MAKES American culture unique among most every other nation. Japan can’t claim that. Nor China. Nor Germany. Nor France. And on and on. In fact, we should be celebrating that diversity, Northeast and South and Appalachia, and Upper Midwest and Texas and Southwest and California and Northwest; and all the immigrants from all over the world that have made this country what it is today. Not pissing and moaning because it is not unichromatic. It is what gives us out strength. The times we have denied that have usually been our weakest.
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#61 written by shortchain 10 months ago
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Mule,
Democrats’ naïveté and unwillingness to stand for American culture and language
This “stand for American culture and language” is the same line that has been spoken for well over a century. It was used in defense against the influx of Italians, Irish, Germans, Ashkenazi Jews, Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, and many, many others, in addition to those from Mexico, Central America, and South America.
Every single time, the first generation speaks primarily their native language, the second generation speaks the native language at home and English outside the home, and the third generation rarely knows more than a few words of the language spoken by their grandparents. Their cultural affinities have also always evolved in the same sort of way.
Yet we see Chinatown in San Francisco, and hear Cantonese spoken on its streets (for those of us who can discern the difference, anyway). And we see the Hispanic districts of Los Angeles, and hear Spanish spoken on the streets. But those who do are the new generation of immigrants. They move to those districts, speak the language of the “old country”, and their children move elsewhere, speaking English. And so it goes.
And those whose families have been in the United States for longer periods of time look at those districts, the places that never seem to go away, and conclude that they don’t go away because people live there and refuse to assimilate, rather than recognizing that it’s a waypoint for families on the path of assimilation, that it’s a constant backfill of new people from foreign lands.
Meanwhile, as part of the assimilation, we adopt some of their linguistic tics, and much of their food. Where would American cuisine be without pizza, a food that came from Italy, went through the grinder of American civilization, and then was exported back to Italy in a new form…one that many Italians today recognize as their own? Where would Italian cuisine be without the tomato, an American plant? Where would Irish cuisine have been without the potato, also an American plant? How is it that General Tso’s Chicken, a “Chinese” dish invented in New Jersey, can now be found on the menus of Chinese restaurants in Beijing? How has the Mexican tortilla gone from being a side dish to the wrapper for food—at first Mexican (in the American invention of the burrito), but later nearly anything someone could imagine eating (as “wraps”)? Why do Americans say “hasta la vista”, “ciao”, “papier-mâché”, and “Schadenfreude”…and American children happily watch Japanese cartoons on Saturday mornings?
American culture, and its English language, absorb so much from the rest of the world. And Americans process it, assimilate it, and export it back to those countries. It’s one of the things that makes our nation what it is. Rather than fight it, why not embrace it? It’s not going to change either way, but at least it is less painful…and, frankly, a lot more fun (to me, anyway).
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#63 written by WA7th 10 months ago
Re: English-only, I think those laws get pushed in Congress for the sole purpose of stirring the pot to provoke the “racist” accusations in response, and to purposely waste time so nothing else more important can get done. Those who aren’t fond of creeping bilingualism and outfits like La Raza, at least those who actually want something done about it, have better luck attacking it through education bills and curriculum committees at the state level, where they’re more likely to own the balance of power anyway and are more likely to find a few sympathetic ears on the other side.
No matter how ones feels about it, it’s simply an economic fact that anyone who doesn’t know Spanish can’t do business in certain parts of the U.S.
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#64 written by Max 10 months ago
New Braunfels, Texas
Founded by Germans in 1845 (177 years ago). Home to Gruene and Gruene Hall, the paper is the Zeitung, you can find opa’s and oma’s here who can speak German, we celebrate Wuerstfest in November. The good Prince Solms founded the city with plans to establish a German feudal state by secretly bringing in immigrants and placing them in military fortresses.
Wanna talk about diversity hanging around? -
No matter how ones feels about it, it’s simply an economic fact that anyone who doesn’t know Spanish can’t do business in certain parts of the U.S.
I think that’s one of the reasons conservatives are upset about the issue. They can’t be bothered with learning Spanish. They are guitly of precisely the laziness they accused Hispanics of.
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Every single time, the first generation speaks primarily their native language, the second generation speaks the native language at home and English outside the home, and the third generation rarely knows more than a few words of the language spoken by their grandparents.
This precisely describes my family. It’s kind of spooky.
The whole “English-only”, “American culture” crowd are expressing a thinly-veiled racism and jingoism, which masks an underlying fear of The Other and insecurity about one’s own abilities. There is no reason to fear “immigrants” who don’t speak-a de English if you are secure in your own ability to make a living and to make life even better for your children.
This is one of the reasons the 1% likes to keep middle-class Americans insecure. It divides us against each other, and leaves Them in charge.
This may require a full article some day.…
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#69 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
“I think that’s one of the reasons conservatives are upset about the issue. They can’t be bothered with learning Spanish. They are guitly of precisely the laziness they accused Hispanics of.“
First of all, it’s more than just conservatives that have a problem with it. Secondly, why should a native-born United States citizen, when raised in an English-speaking home and surrounded by and English-speaking community, feel the need to learn Spanish, other than just educational purposes or to seek out a specific profession where speaking Spanish is necessary? And lastly, why should someone who doesn’t pursue learning Spanish be considered lazy? Name one good reason, and one of your fluffy answers about having a well-rounded education that embraces diversity is an inadequate response.
I’m sorry, but i can’t let this kind of thinking pass. You make such a big deal in decrying secessionism by saying, “You don’t just get to leave and take a part of this country with you.” Well listen here, you don’t just get to come into this country and expect the native-born population to accommodate you, from a language standpoint. It’s beyond sickening that you would even suggest any American, conservative or otherwise, is “lazy” for not putting forth the effort to learn Spanish when it should be completely unnecessary. Shame on you.
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Name one good reason,
Because, as WA7th said, and as I quoted in the comment of my you responded to,
No matter how one feels about it, it’s simply an economic fact that
anyone who doesn’t know Spanish can’t do business in certain parts
of the U.S.Why learn Spanish? Because a large and growing percentage of the US population speaks Spanish. If you want to communicate with them on a positive way, it’s a useful and respectful (and likely profitable) thing to do.
Ridicule it all you want. Contemn it all you want. Rail about it all you want. That doesn’t make it less useful or valuable or respectful or profitable.
If those are not good reasons for you, that’s cool. I’ll personally gain from the contact, and you won’t. That’s okay too.
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Mule,
Secondly, why should a native-born United States citizen, when raised in an English-speaking home and surrounded by and English-speaking community, feel the need to learn Spanish
Why should someone raised in a family with uneducated parents feel the need to obtain professional degrees? Every additional skill you obtain increases your potential value. You can rest upon your laurels, or you can grow.
But, moreover, learning foreign languages does remarkable things for cultural empathy. That is, by learning foreign languages, one develops the ability to understand how other cultures view the world. And, in doing so, one gains insights into the difference between “wrong” and merely “different”.
I, for one, am pleased to have been able to pick up a little Mandarin, Japanese, Spanish, and French. Plus the Korean phonetic alphabet. It has allowed me to see how different cultures have used different techniques to arrive at similar conclusions.
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Mule said:
Secondly, why should a native-born United States citizen, when raised in an English-speaking home and surrounded by and English-speaking community, feel the need to learn Spanish, other than just educational purposes or to seek out a specific profession where speaking Spanish is necessary?
Why should a native-born United States citizen, when raised in a home with calculators and surrounded by computers with spreadsheets, feel the need to learn mathematics, other than just educational purposes or to seek out a specific profession where learning mathematics is necessary?
Why should anyone learn economics, for that matter? -
Juro lealtad à la bandera de los Estados Unidos de Ame’rica y la repu’blica la cual representa, una nacion bajo Dios, indivisible, con libertad y justicia para todos.
The 1st couple days in Spanish I “we” learned the pledge. But instead of lealtad we used fidelidad and que simboliza instead of la cual representa.
As always, America the melting pot. Next thing you know, gays will be serving in the military and conservatives will return to being logical human beings …
It could happen!
>
And the mirage which is the individual mandate will be approved by the activist conservative SC on Thursday.
Again, it could happen!
ie the mandate which really isn’t a mandate.
I digress. ¡Adiós!
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#75 written by rgbact 10 months ago
It was used in defense against the influx of Italians, Irish, Germans,
Ashkenazi Jews, Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Chinese, Japanese,
Vietnamese, and many, many
The big differnce today being 1) None of those countries have a border with us 2) We’ve become a far more advanced economy-not in desperate need of low skilled labor and struggling with income inequality. 3) There are more “special rights” of being an American than there have been in the past. It makes sense to have an immigration system built for the 21st century, not the 19th. Aren’t liberals always saying we need to evolve?Most of the points you made basically make a case for immigration, and don’t address illegal immigration. Some of us see a difference between the two. As the son of immigrants, I get how assimilation works—most conservatives do too. We also understand how assimilation can become takeover fairly easily.
Every additional skill you obtain increases your potential value.
Yes, and some skills aren’t worth taking the time to learn. There is an opportunity cost to learning after all. Math or Spanish-not hard to figure out cost/benefit difference there.
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#76 written by Max 10 months ago
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The big differnce today being…
rgbact, I can’t think why any of your reasons matter. You’re just saying, “Yeah, we tried to keep people out before, but this time I’m really scared!” Guess what? Bigots felt that same way every single time.
I’m curious to know if your immigrant parents were part of one of the groups that America once tried to keep out. I can just hear it — “Our family has had trouble with furriners ever since we came to this country!“
We also understand how assimilation can become takeover fairly easily.
And there it is in a nutcase. It’s all about paranoia and fearmongering. One of the reasons I really like you is that at least you’re honest — admitting that voter ID is really about voter suppression, that you have no interest in actually learning about the things you have opinons about (read the decision fer crissake!), or this comment here, that the only reason to keep Those People out is because you’re afraid.
Yes, and some skills aren’t worth taking the time to learn. There is an opportunity cost to learning after all. Math or Spanish-not hard to figure out cost/benefit difference there.
Apparently, yes it is.
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#78 written by rgbact 10 months ago
(read the decision fer crissake!)
Right after you read PPACA.I’m not a lawyer, I rely on experts (and you’re not one). I also don’t plan on learning the laws of every state Obama plans on suing. Its hard to keep up with it and is about as useful as learning Spanish.
rgbact, I can’t think why any of your reasons matter.
The first 4 words are the key part of that sentence.
Just gotta love the unending hypocrisy of the left.
I prefer the term “logical inconsistencies”. And yes, its becoming breathtaking.
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rgbact’s deflections in #78 are duly noted as it’s also nice some at this site continue to “try” to engage you … my compliments regarding their infinite patience/fortitude.
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Quinnipiac has Obama up by (9) and Sherrod Brown up by (16) in Ohio despite Brown being turdblossom’s #1 target! Ohio~Ohio~Ohio
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By the way, rg … as for “every state Obama plans on suing”… do you know how many states Obama has sued so far? (I’ll give you a hint. Zero.)
Now, do you know how many states the Justice Department has brought suit against? (I won’t gve any hints there, but I’ll gently suggest you check the history of the US for the frequency of this event.)
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The Executive suing states over immigration enforcement? Totally and completely unheard of.
http://articles.latimes.com/2007/sep/25/nation/na-immig25
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rgbact,
Let’s go over these points in turn, shall we?None of those countries have a border with us
So your issue is limited to Mexicans and Canadians? No trouble with an influx of Hondurans, or Guatamalans?
We’ve become a far more advanced economy-not in desperate need of low skilled labor and struggling with income inequality
Really? Tell that to the farmers who have become so dependent upon the very low skilled labor you claim we don’t need. Perhaps you don’t hear about it, being in the midwest and all, but out on the west coast it’s become an evergreen story in the press.
There are more “special rights” of being an American than there have been in the past.
Funny how that is another evergreen that’s been used against whomever make up the latest immigrant group. It’s not evolution; it’s the same old stuff.
Most of the points you made basically make a case for immigration, and don’t address illegal immigration.
That’s because when one talks about preserving American culture (as Mule did), there is no distinction between legal and illegal immigrants. It’s not as if the legal ones arrive looking, acting, and speaking like native Americans (and certainly not like Native Americans). Arguments about preserving American culture are about stopping all immigration, without a distinction of legality.
Math or Spanish-not hard to figure out cost/benefit difference there.
And so I presume you have a PhD in mathematics, yes?
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#85 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
“Really? Tell that to the farmers who have become so dependent upon the very low skilled labor you claim we don’t need.”
They’re not dependent so much on low-skilled labor as they are on low-cost labor. And that’s not a distinction without a difference.
“And so I presume you have a PhD in mathematics, yes?”
Sorry, that’s a straw man.
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Mule,
They’re not dependent so much on low-skilled labor as they are on low-cost labor. And that’s not a distinction without a difference.
Perhaps not, but that same distinction/difference has existed throughout our nation’s history of immigrants. Well-educated Irish arrived on our nation’s shores and found themselves performing menial labor at relatively low wages. The same happened with the Germans, and the Chinese, and the Ashkenazi Jews, and so on.
“And so I presume you have a PhD in mathematics, yes?”
Sorry, that’s a straw man.
Not really. It was to prove a point. It’s not that one should learn how to speak a foreign language as fluently as a native. Take a couple of classes in high school. Hell, just spend a little time watching Univision instead of ESPN or whatever. The opportunity cost is not significant enough to bring up. And the benefits extend far beyond merely being able to say “Comment allez-vous?”
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#87 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
“Perhaps not, but that same distinction/difference has existed throughout our nation’s history of immigrants.”
As liberals so often like to argue on issues that evolve, just because it’s been the case historically doesn’t mean it’s right or needs to continue. Personally, I’m disgusted by distortions in the labor market for many of those jobs because of immigration policy. I’d like to see exploitation of low-wage labor evaporate. Then these immigrants would get paid fairly for extremely hard work, and the higher wages it would take to entice workers would possibly attract many domestic workers with nothing else to do as well. There are other “low-skilled” jobs in America where the pay is decent-to-good, simply because it’s something not many people care to do.
“Take a couple of classes in high school. Hell, just spend a little time watching Univision instead of ESPN or whatever.”
For the record, I took a couple of Spanish classes in high school. I can still read it okay at times. The skills diminish quickly when speaking it, and especially when listening to (and translating) it.
“The opportunity cost is not significant enough to bring up.”
I disagree. But since we’re on the subject, why don’t we ask what the cost to society has been in having a portion of the population reluctant to adopt the English language for public use and not forcing them (not literally but by being less accommodating in their native tongue) to do so?
“And the benefits extend far beyond merely being able to say “Comment allez-vous?””
Sorry, the “benefits” are highly subjective, and honestly, for the vast majority of the population, it would be a waste of time.
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I’d like to see exploitation of low-wage labor evaporate.
Me, too. Put people who employ workers below minimum wage, without benefits, and pay cash — put the employers in prison, maybe a year for each violation (employ 10 low-wage workers with no benefits, spend a decade in a federal pen). That would make these jobs evaporate, and would raise benefits and wages for everyone.
why don’t we ask what the cost to society has been in having a
portion of the population reluctant to adopt the English language
for public use and not forcing them (not literally but by being
less accommodating in their native tongue) to do so?Personally, I have no idea what the cost is. Perhaps you would write an article on the topic. I think it would be a great conversation to have.
But since we have no official language, what excuse is there for singling out English in this way? What’s the cost to society for not requiring everyone to learn Spanish? What’s the cost for not requiring everyone to learn Mandarin? Is there any language which would be of more benefit than English? Again, I don’t know. It might be interesting to consider.
Conversely, what are the costs of suddenly making it pretty much impossible to function in America without English? What do we give up by abandoning this element of our treasured diversity? What does it do to our foreign partners? Once more, I have no idea. Let’s think about that, too, if we are going to seriously consider an official language.
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#89 written by Max 10 months ago
Jail the CEO’s (owners of S-corps, partnerships, and proprietorships) and directors of corporations and fine the company 6-figure fines for EACH hire.
Illegal immigration issue will be solved overnight.
But the Democrats will lose a political lever as will the GOP, who also will not buck their corporate masters.
Both parties collude in this mess. -
Mule,
As liberals so often like to argue on issues that evolve, just because it’s been the case historically doesn’t mean it’s right or needs to continue.
Of course. I’m happy to see it evolve. But things shouldn’t change merely for the sake of changing. There should be a compelling reason for the change. Perhaps you could outline the compelling reason why this should have changed now.
Personally, I’m disgusted by distortions in the labor market for many of those jobs because of immigration policy. I’d like to see exploitation of low-wage labor evaporate.
I would, too. But surely you’re aware that these things don’t happen in a vacuum. If labor costs rise in one geographical area, it applies pressure for the work to be done elsewhere, where the costs are lower. This is why the newer automobile factories in the US are in the “right to work” states. Increase the farm labor costs in the US, and the pressure rises for the work to be performed outside the US. Would it be enough to maim or even kill the industry in high-labor crops (e.g., cherries)? I don’t know. I want the answer to be “no”, but I don’t have sufficient information to back it up.
the higher wages it would take to entice workers would possibly attract many domestic workers with nothing else to do as well
For the record, I took a couple of Spanish classes in high school. I can still read it okay at times.
Good. I wish more people did.But since we’re on the subject, why don’t we ask what the cost to society has been in having a portion of the population reluctant to adopt the English language for public use and not forcing them (not literally but by being less accommodating in their native tongue) to do so?
Yesterday, I described how it has long worked in practice. The first generation, who typically arrive old enough that their brains are far less suited to learning another language, speak a little English, but not enough to be particularly successful in American society. Those who enter the country prior to puberty do very well, and are typically bilingual between their parents’ native tongue and American English. And their children will speak English exclusively, though they may learn a few words of their grandparents’ native tongue.
That cycle occurs regardless of what happens in terms of “accomodation”, because of the changing plasticity of the human brain. You can no more change that than you can prevent your hair from going gray.
Amercans have had this discussion for well over a century…and the integrative behavior continues to happen in the same way, regardless of attempts to force more rapid integration, because it’s the way human beings work. It happens in every single country in which people migrate from a place with one language to a place with another. The only exceptions, where they exist, is in instances where the host country prevents integration (e.g., Ashkenazi Jews in much of Eastern Europe in the early 20th century). Absent that prevention, integration occurrs naturally over the course of one to two generations for any given family. So, again I ask, why try to fight it?
Sorry, the “benefits” are highly subjective, and honestly, for the vast majority of the population, it would be a waste of time.
I suspect we’d find ourselves spending a lot less on the military if we did a better job at exposure. Absent a control, I can’t prove it, though.
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Mule, since you were concerned —
There is a report on the Fast and Furious program available today, by an objective investigative reporter, Katherine Eban. You can find it here.
To summarize, everything that Republicans are saying about the program is misleading, deceptive, or is an outright lie. Everything. It is total political bullshit. All of it.
And it’s going to get worse, because the Republican-controlled House tomorrow is going to vote the Attorney General in contempt of Congress, for the first time in American history — and all the AG has done is to obey the law.
This is the most blatant and odious piece of stinking political crap I have seen in my life.
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#92 written by Mainer 10 months ago
It would seem that any one living in an area that abuts another land and that has strong cultural and or business ties with that area would find having at least some level of proficiency in the language of that other area to be a net plus.Up here French can come in pretty handy at times. Hell DownEast being able to understand Clam Flat English can be pretty good.
It is interesting that you mention right to work for less states. Many of them flat out gutted Northern business but we have actually seen some of those jobs creeping back. I can’t really say if we even have much of an issue up here with illegals or with them depressing wages. We have a bigger issue with bonded wood cutters from Canada.
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#93 written by mclever 10 months ago
With regard to the benefits of learning another language, there are significant advantages beyond merely being able to understand and converse with someone from another country or region.
Language and thought are inextricably linked. We use language to frame our thoughts, and different languages require different ways of thinking. By learning another language, you are literally broadening your mind and expanding your ability to think about things in new and different ways. This is part of the reason why educational theorists push for early learning of a second language for children, because learning a second language–particularly if it isn’t too closely related to one’s primary language–enhances critical thinking skills and problem solving capabilities because the brain that knows two (or more) languages is better able to make cross-wise connections and see associations and process patterns.
So, do yourselves a favor and learn another lingo. It’ll make you smarter, and may even improve your ability to do higher-order math.
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#94 written by rgbact 10 months ago
But the Democrats will lose a political lever as will the GOP, who also will not buck their corporate masters.
Both parties collude in this mess.
Wow, we agree on something.To summarize, everything that Republicans are saying about the program is misleading, deceptive, or is an outright lie. Everything. It is total political bullshit. All of it.
You certainly summarized it as simply as possible. Any actual facts to share, besides “Republicans are evil”? I admit, the “scandal” makes my eyes glaze over so far.
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You certainly summarized it as simply as possible. Any actual facts to share, besides “Republicans are evil”?
rgbact, the article I linked has everything. Take a read.
I’ll start you out. Fast & Furious was not a program intended to buy guns and sell them to Mexican cartels. The Feds bought no guns and didn’t sell any. ATF saw suspicious sales going on and tried to track them. ATF wanted to arrest the people involved, but were prevetned from doing so by various laws that allow people to buy guns.
Read the damn article.
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About Michael Weiss (325 posts)
Michael is a jack of many trades, and master of a few. His varied background includes government and private businesses, both large and small. His experience in the financial services and computer industries has led him to computer security.





Correction:
Section 2(b) stands for now.
SCOTUS allowed that, since it contains the revised provision against profiling and has not yet been implemented, they could not determine if it is unconstitutional in application. Should, once implemented, the law is challenged with evidence that it does de facto profile, SCOTUS can revisit and possibly throw that out as well.