Threading the Needle
Ever since the Supreme Court heard oral arguments on the constitutionality of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA, “Obamacare”) individual mandate, pundits have been predicting that the mandate is dead. The remaining question would then be: will the Supreme Court find the law severable, that is, can the mandate be ruled unconstitutional but the rest of the law stands? Or does the whole thing go down because of an unacceptable mandate?
The Supreme Court finally answered today. By a five-to-four vote (Justices Breyer, Ginsburg, Kagan, and Sotomayor dissenting), the individual mandate was technically struck down as a violation of the Commerce Clause, but by a different five-to-four vote (Justices Alito, Kennedy, Scalia, and Thomas dissenting) the fine for being uninsured was not. In that regard, the Court threaded the needle, objecting to the “illegality” of being uninsured, while leaving the relevant penalty in the Act unchanged.
This decision is certainly a huge win for the Obama administration at first blush. But it may prove to be less of a win for Obama himself.
I’ll explain that in greater detail in a bit, but first let’s examine what just happened.
The mandate took on the form of revisions to section 5000A(a) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986. From Chapter 48 of PPACA (section breaks and designators removed):
If a taxpayer who is an applicable individual, or an applicable individual for whom the taxpayer is liable … fails to meet the requirement … for 1 or more months, then, [barring an acceptable exception] there is hereby imposed on the taxpayer a penalty.
Subsection (a) sets the requirements for an acceptable health plan:
The term ‘minimum essential coverage’ means any of the following:
GOVERNMENT SPONSORED PROGRAMS.—Coverage under the Medicare program … the Medicaid program … the CHIP program .… TRICARE … veteran’s health care program, or a health plan [for] Peace Corps volunteers.
EMPLOYER-SPONSORED PLAN.—Coverage under an eligible employer-sponsored plan.PLANS IN THE INDIVIDUAL MARKET.—Coverage under a health plan offered in the individual market within a State.
GRANDFATHERED HEALTH PLAN.—Coverage under a grandfathered health plan.
OTHER COVERAGE.—Such other health benefits coverage, such as a State health benefits risk pool, as the Secretary of Health and Human Services … recognizes for purposes of this subsection.
The Court concluded that the “shared responsibility payment” charged to those who do not have medical coverage does, in fact, amount to a tax. And there is a long history of taxes being attached to people’s behaviors, such that they can change behavior to avoid a tax. Since Congress has the authority to impose taxes, that makes the mandate constitutional.
The Court’s decision to not permit the law under the Commerce and Necessary & Proper Clauses lays an important precedent. It is, in essence, a shot across the bow of Congress to warn that coercion through taxation may be fine, but not mandating behavior with stronger force, such as criminality.
In any case, because the mandate-as-tax was upheld, severability became moot.
The pundits felt, based on oral arguments, that the mandate was a dead letter. This is reflected in the Intrade betting market on the death of the individual mandate, starting with oral arguments on March 27:
Before oral arguments, the consensus was that the mandate had about a 50 percent chance of survival. After the news of the oral arguments settled in, with CNN’s analyst Jeffrey Toobin making a strong case for the death of the mandate:
This still looks like a train wreck for the Obama administration, and it may also be a plane wreck. This entire law is now in serious trouble. It also seems that the individual mandate is doomed. I mean, Anthony Kennedy spent much of this morning talking about if we strike down the individual mandate, how should we handle the rest of the law? Now, it is less clear that they are going to strike down the whole law. There does seem to be some controversy in the court about that. Certainly there are some members of the court — Antonin Scalia, Justice Alito — who want to strike down the entire law, but it seemed almost a foregone conclusion today that they were going to strike down the individual mandate, and the only question is does the whole law go out the window with it?
After Toobin’s words sunk in, the markets pushed the percentage chance up to 60⁄40. The buzz around the death of the mandate meme grew, so that by the day before the decision, the chance was 80⁄20. In this case, the pundits were right.
Other court observers, such as SCOTUSblog’s Amy Howe, were more sanguine about the chances for the mandate’s survival. She wrote at the time:
With several Justices apparently dubious of the government’s arguments, two exchanges toward the end of Carvin’s argument stood out as potentially helpful to the government and may have given at least a glimmer of hope to the mandate’s supporters. The first came from Justice Elena Kagan, who asked Carvin whether he might have an easier argument if he weren’t arguing that the mandate is always unconstitutional, but instead that the mandate is at least unconstitutional as it applies to specific people (for example, Christian Scientists) who clearly were not going to be a part of the health care market and, by declining to buy insurance, would not incur health care costs that would be shifted to the rest of us. That line of reasoning might provide the Court with a way to uphold the mandate generally, while leaving open the possibility that individuals who object to the mandate could still challenge it.
The second, and possibly even more important, comment came from Justice Anthony Kennedy, a key swing vote on the Court. Justice Kennedy appeared to voice some sympathy for the government’s argument that the health care market is “unique.” Even if a healthy young person without insurance may not need health care in a particular time period, he reasoned, that young person will nonetheless be “very close” to having an effect on insurance rates – for example, on the theory that, as he ages, he will eventually need care that he can’t afford without insurance – in a way that just doesn’t happen in other markets.
In this case, Justice Kennedy came down on the side of the unconstitutionality of the mandate, which was predicted by his musings in response to Solicitor General Verrelli’s argument:
But the reason, the reason this is concerning, is because it requires the individual to do an affirmative act. In the law of torts our tradition, our law, has been that you don’t have the duty to rescue someone if that person is in danger. The blind man is walking in front of a car and you do not have a duty to stop him absent some relation between you. And there is some severe moral criticisms of that rule, but that’s generally the rule.
And here the government is saying that the Federal Government has a duty to tell the individual citizen that it must act, and that is different from what we have in previous cases and that changes the relationship of the Federal Government to the individual in the very fundamental
Yet, in a surprise move, Kennedy was not the swing vote in this decision; Roberts was.
The only restriction of substance to come out of this decision was a warning that the federal government may not withhold Medicare funds to states that are in compliance with the law as it existed prior to the PPACA.
As I said above, this decision looks like a huge win for the Obama administration, yet not necessarily for Obama.
To be sure, for those who understand what it means to be subject to annual and lifetime caps, and restrictions on coverage for preexisting conditions, this is clearly a big win for all of us. But most Americans are blithely unaware that there are issues with preexisting conditions. After all, a majority get their coverage through their employers, and employer-supplied coverage rarely excludes preexisting conditions in the first place. And for those whose policies do exclude preexisting conditions, a relatively small percentage of them ever find themselves in need of treatment for one. The same can be said for lifetime caps. Few people know that they’re there, and fewer still realize how easy it is to bump into those restrictions.
So, while it benefits those who don’t yet know they’ll need it, most Americans won’t even notice the preexisting condition and lifetime cap changes.
Furthermore, many Americans are woefully ignorant about the very existence of the law. Nearly a quarter of Americans polled in February believed that the PPACA had already been repealed. With the significant press surrounding today’s ruling, the number who today believed that it had been repealed prior to February is most likely significantly lower. Nonetheless, this points to upcoming political posturing from the Republicans.
Expect to hear for the next several months that the oh-so-unpopular Obamacare is still around, and won’t go away until Obama goes away. This will still be a somewhat difficult postition for Republican Presidential candidate Mitt Romney to take, since it will require that spend time defending his earlier actions with respect to Romneycare.
And that messaging will put Democrats on the defensive. As should be abundantly clear by now, when it comes to messaging, Democrats lose the messaging battle whenever nuance enters into the equation. Yet the response must necessarily be nuanced: “Yes, the mandate remains, but the lifetime caps and preexisting condition coverage go along with that.” Yeah, that fits on a bumper sticker just fine, doesn’t it?
The decision, then, hands a campaigning gift to the Republican Party, and provides to them a rallying cry of “Defeat Obama to Defeat Obamacare!”
In the end, then, we’re left with the realization that both sides got something they wanted. Democrats got the policy, and Republicans got messaging for this year’s campaigns. Just as with Arizona v. United States earlier this week, you can be sure Republicans will walk away declaring victory, even when the reality is exactly the opposite. And it seems that a substantial percentage of Americans will believe them.
Related articles
- Poll: Americans don’t like Obamacare, but love what’s in it (americablog.com)

This entry was posted by Michael Weiss on June 28, 2012 at 8:15 am, and is filed under Breaking News, Supreme Court Watch. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0.You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.
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#402 written by shortchain 10 months ago
GROG,
To continue in line with Michael’s suggestion — since all the ones he mentioned are, in your words, “socialized”, by which I presume you mean “socialist”, since that was the question, what countries do not have socialist healthcare? And let’s restrict this to the developed world, where the citizens don’t have to rely on Doctors Without Borders.For example, you cited France earlier, as a country moving away from “socialist healthcare”. Does a co-pay really mean the system isn’t socialistic, if the government sets the payment for various treatments? What if Britain (which, since much of the country is served by people in the employ of the HS, is arguably the “most socialist” of the countries mentioned) implemented a co-pay? Would that make the result “less socialist”?
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shortchain,
I think you’re correct in that the changes attempted by one administration in France do not signal a “worldwide trend,” particularly since those changes seem likely to be reversed soon.
Yes, some European countries have been attempting to impose “austerity” measures, which may include shifting more of the healthcare spending from national programs to individuals. Note that this actually does nothing in the way of encouraging “austerity,” since heath care still has to be purchased and paid for by someone. All it does is increase the costs and suffering of the people who most desperately need care.
These measures are immensely unpopular, and I don’t expect them to last longer than the economic downturn lasts. (To be fair, if proponents of “austerity” have their way, the economic downturn could last a very long time. Recall the discussions we’ve previously had on this. Austerity advocates don’t see any reason for economies to actually begin recovering for decades, maybe generations.)
Anyway, on the question of whether imposing co-payments makes a “socialist” system less “socialist” — a related question is whether “socialism” has a scale of degree, whether there even are “more” and “less” socialist programs or nations. It may be that “socialism” is a binary condition — something either is or is not “socialist”, rather than one system being three-quarters socialist whereas another only has five pounds of socialism.
If indeed socialism is binary, then the presence of any socialist elements at all makes the whole thing socialist (maybe even socialistical) — provided, that is, the speaker disapproves. Conversely, the socialist elements in a system of which the speaker approves (like the socialism-for-the-rich of giving tax breaks to wealthy élites), these elements are outweighed by any hint of someone rich making a profit, and the binary meter is turned to off.
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#404 written by GROG 10 months ago
I think you’re correct in that the changes attempted by one administration in France do not signal a “worldwide trend,”
Look at reforms made in The Netherlands in 2006.
Under this system, the public health insurers have been privatized or have merged with private health insurers
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0707383
Do you want more examples?
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#405 written by GROG 10 months ago
DC,
You don’t actually expect anyone to believe that was not the intent of this offensive and sleazy political propaganda, do you? Be serious, my friend.
The intent of using the word “socialists” or “socialism” is to equate the American left and he President with western european style socialism. Not Karl Marx style socialism. That I expect you to believe.
I’m not saying no one on the planet in the past 40 years has used the term to equate Democrats to Karl Marx. But I certainly don’t.
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#407 written by shortchain 10 months ago
GROG,
All the “anti-socialist” movement you see is far more than canceled by the movement of the USA in the opposite direction.Also,
an assessment of the 2006 Dutch health insurance reforms published in Duke University’s Journal of Health Politics, Policy and Law in 2008 raised concerns. The analysis found that market-based competition in healthcare may not have the advantages over more publicly based single payer models that were originally envisioned for the reforms:
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#408 written by Max 10 months ago
From the NEJM article GROG cites:
Under this system, the public health insurers have been privatized or have merged with private health insurers, and all citizens are required to purchase a basic package of essential health care services, along with “own-risk coverage” (essentially an annual deductible) of €150 each year. The premium for this package is set by insurers in competition with one another, but they must accept all applicants without selecting risks. People with low incomes receive a subsidy for the basic insurance, and there is an option to purchase an additional package to cover nonvital extras. Long-term institutional and nursing home care is covered by mandatory special insurance, with an income-dependent premium.
Well, GDMFSOB!! WTF does THAT sound like?
Congratulations GROG, you just made Obamacare an example to be touted!
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#409 written by GROG 10 months ago
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#410 written by Max 10 months ago
GROG,
Perhaps you should dig a little deeper and see what the facts actually are:
Hospitals in the Netherlands are mostly privately run and not for profit, as are the insurance companies. Most insurance packages allow patients to choose where they want to be treated. To help patients to choose, the government gathers and discloses information about provider performance. Patients dissatisfied with their insurer can choose another one at least once a year. The regulator has sight of the claims made by policyholders and therefore can redistribute the funds its holds on the basis of relative claims made by policy holders. Thus insurers with high payouts receive more from the regulator than those with low payouts. Thus insurance companies have no incentive to deter high cost individuals from taking insurance and are compensated if they have to pay out more than a threshold.
So, the “private” insurers are non-profits and subsidized by the government regulatory funds.
Really “market-based”, aren’t they? Maybe you should quit digging while you’re at the bottom of that hole.
Je ziet, ik heb Nederlandse vrienden.
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#411 written by shortchain 10 months ago
GROG,
Please note:From 1941 to 2006, there were separate public and private systems of short-term health insurance. The public insurance system was implemented by non-profit health funds, and financed by premiums taken directly out of the wages (together with income taxes). Everyone earning less than a certain threshold qualified for the public insurance system. However, anyone with income over that threshold was obliged to have private insurance instead.
The changes made both required everyone to have private insurance and rigidly regulated what that insurance had to cover (before that, as I understand it, the particulars of the insurance were not so tightly controlled). Also, please note, the cost of that insurance has skyrocketed since then. Although the Dutch have excellent healthcare, they pay a relatively high price for it.
I would suggest that, before you crow about “movements away from socialist healthcare”, you wait a couple more years, through another election or so. (There has been only one election since the reforms were implemented. It may very well be that things will be re-reformed in a couple of years.)
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Grog, you didn’t say that the Netherlands were become more “market based”. You claimed they (along with France) were becoming “less socialist.”
If you don’t mean to connect the word “socialism” to tyrannical, authoritarian totalitarianism, well then, good for you. But please don’t pretend that the majority of Americans voters don’t think in those terms when the word “socalism” is thrown around as a form of cussing. Please don’t pretend it hasn’t ben used in the same sentence as “Nazi” or “Communist” (no, it doesn’t make sense to put any two of those words together, but don’t please pretend your team isn’t doing it).
Okay, so you hate hate hate Western Eureopan socialism. How come?
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#413 written by shortchain 10 months ago
DC,
I noticed that too. “market based” doesn’t preclude “socialist”. Socialist countries can have free markets. It’s just that the profits don’t necessarily go to the to .01 of 1 percent of the population.Just as “capitalist” doesn’t necessarily entail a free market. Nothing in capitalism prevents monopolies, for example.
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#414 written by Max 10 months ago
Which is why I “GDMFSOB’ed”! A system that is a copy of Obamacare, but for MORE regulation, government subsidized and NO profit is what GROG touts as “market based”.
But if Obamacare is a socialist takeover of one-sixth of the US economy, what the hell is the Dutch system???
Too funny!
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#415 written by GROG 10 months ago
Max,
Really “market-based”, aren’t they? Maybe you should quit digging while you’re at the bottom of that hole.
If I didn’t expect this kind of reaction, I would be laughing my ass off. But it’s become too sad and predictable to laugh at it anymore.
I made an assertion in an earlier comment that there is a worldwide trent to move towards more market based healthcare solutions. I cited the changes in the French system over the last decade. I cited changes to the Dutch system in 2006. Are you honestly trying to claim that the Dutch reforms in 2006 was not an attempt to move to a more market based system? Can you claim that with a straight face?
Let’s see:
Under this system, the public health insurers have been privatized or have merged with private health insurers
For general practitioners, who previously received a full capitation fee for patients registered with the public fund, a partial fee-for-service payment — €9 per consultation unit (with more intensive consultation services, such as home visits, counting for more units than less intensive ones, such as e-mail interactions) — was introduced, in addition to a still relatively substantial capitation payment for all registered patients.
Why would they want to do that, Max? Well.….…
The plan aims to make citizens aware of health care costs — and thereby encourage them to demand value for their money — and to introduce a greater market orientation.
That almost sounds like greater market oriented healtcare.
Providers, who had essentially been guaranteed contracts with health insurers under the old system, now must negotiate more extensively over price and quality of care. Accordingly, there is increasing competition among both insurers and providers, which is meant to enable consumers to make better choices.
That sounds astonishingly like a more market based approach, to me.
In the Netherlands, patients and doctors generally seem willing to accept the regulated market orientation, provided that competition leads to better health care for all.
Too funny.
Take the blinders off, Max. It’s right there in front of you.
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To be fair, what Grog said (comment 385) was:
… the worldwide trend is to move away from centralized government
controled healthcare and to introduce more market based solutions.The Netherlands approach is both government controlled and market-based — far more government controlled than the ACA, certainly.
In any case, I still don’t see this as a “worldwide trend.” YMMV. But it most certainly isn’t anything remotely similar to the for-profit unregulated system of insurance pirates that Republicans want, and there is no evidence whatever that anyone on the planet (other than Republicans) wants that.
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#417 written by shortchain 10 months ago
I’ve got to agree with GROG on this one. He said, there is no question a worldwide movement, and I quote:
“to move away from centralized government controled healthcare and toward a market-based”He didn’t say “away from socialist”. He’s right about that. There’s been another discussion about “socialist” healthcare, but that’s separate.
Of course, whether a minuscule move in Holland and what is extremely likely to be a temporary shift in France to increase co-pays is an unquestionable worldwide movement, but hey, I guess you’ve got to take your evidence where you can get it.
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#418 written by GROG 10 months ago
DC,
In any case, I still don’t see this as a “worldwide trend.”
Swiss healthcare. It’s very much a non-single payer, highly consumer driven system, which relies heavily on the private markets. Switzerland has the highest percentage of out of pocket payments as a percent of total healthcare expenditures in the world.
In Switzerland, the consumer, not employers or the government, pay for their own healthcare expenses through insurance premiums or expenses that are not covered. That’s called “market oriented”.
Ask the Swiss if they want to go to a single payer system?
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#419 written by shortchain 10 months ago
But GROG, a “trend” indicates change. Swiss healthcare hasn’t changed much since 1994, has it? And as for whether it’s “market based”,
The insurers were not allowed to earn profits from the mandated benefit package, although they have always been able to profit from the sale of actuarially priced supplementary benefits (mainly superior amenities).
Does that really sound like a “market-based” system?
Actually, the more you get me looking at these other countries, the more I wish we had something like the ones you say are trending toward “market driven”.
I’m still waiting, by the way, for you to give us an example of a developed nation which does not have something like what you would consider a “socialist” system. No hurry, but I’m curious.
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#420 written by Max 10 months ago
GROG,
Yep, it’s all right there.
Of course, I believe it to be the HEIGHT of audacity for you, as one who has bitched about Obamacare and inferring, if not saying directly, that it is a socialist tool (how we got on the subject anyway), to be holding forth as examples of “market based”, health insurance programs that are Obamacare on steroids.
Do YOU not see the hypocrisy of you doing so? Do YOU not see that you are making a point more IN FAVOR of Obamacare than not? Especially when you look at results and cost for those systems comped against the US!
It right there in front of you!
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#421 written by Max 10 months ago
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#422 written by GROG 10 months ago
sc,
Does that really sound like a “market-based” system?
Switzerland has THE most consumer driven, market based, healthcare system in the world. That’s just a fact, plain and simple.
Actually, the more you get me looking at these other countries, the more I wish we had something like the ones you say are trending toward “market driven”.
I also wish we had a more market driven healthcare system. We lack that badly in our current system.
I’m still waiting, by the way, for you to give us an example of a developed nation which does not have something like what you would consider a “socialist” system.
Switzerland.
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#423 written by shortchain 10 months ago
GROG,
Thanks. I, also would be happy to have something like Switzerland’s healthcare system, with insurance that is required, by law, to cover necessary medical care — no exceptions — and everybody, subsidies for the people who cannot afford to pay for their own insurance. Insurance companies are only allowed to offer insurance above and beyond the basic coverage to cover “amenities”, and only under tight regulation there.Unlike you, however, I don’t regard such a tightly-regulated environment “market-driven”. Frankly, I’d call that “regulation-driven”.
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@Grog
Swiss healthcare. It’s very much a non-single payer, highly
consumer driven system, which relies heavily on the private
markets. Switzerland has the highest percentage of out of pocket
payments as a percent of total healthcare expenditures in
the world.In Switzerland, the consumer, not employers or the government,
pay for their own healthcare expenses through insurance premiums or
expenses that are not covered. That’s called “market oriented”.So … Since the ACA is even less controlled by government that the Swiss system is … That means the ACA is more “market oriented” … and therefore you have no problem with the ACA, and in fact, you fully support it. Right?
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#425 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
Conversations like this seem to serve two purposes. 1) To show that conservatives aren’t as “anti-regulatory” as their rhetoric implies, and 2) To show that liberals aren’t as “anti-market” as their rhetoric implies.
Maybe if we’d stop talking past and vilifying each other with caricatures and getting overly pedantic about what exactly is meant when someone says socialist or free market, we’d find many more areas of common ground and compromise.
“Unlike you, however, I don’t regard such a tightly-regulated environment “market-driven”. Frankly, I’d call that “regulation-driven”.”
The two aren’t as mutually exclusive as you might think. There are many things about the distribution and sale of petroleum that are “tightly regulated,” if no other reason but for the combustible nature of the product, but ultimately the way it filters into consumer channels through a variety of well-distributed and competing gas stations/convenience stores, where there are relatively limited barriers to entry, is arguably very “market-driven.”
By the way, it’s not unreasonable to think Switzerland would do something more “market-driven” than here in the US. We’d do well to pattern more things after them:
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@Mule,
Conversations like this seem to serve two purposes. 1) To show
that conservatives aren’t as “anti-regulatory” as their rhetoric
implies, and 2) To show that liberals aren’t as “anti-market” as
their rhetoric implies.Maybe if we’d stop talking past and vilifying each other with
caricatures and getting overly pedantic about what exactly is meant
when someone says socialist or free market, we’d find many more areas of common ground and compromise.I think you are exactly right. In the end, our goal is the same — the betterment of ourselves, our nation, and the world.We all do tend to get caught within our own visions of what the best way is to accomplish that. We also tend to become overly enamored for certain words, either as signifying our own principles, or as hammers to beat on other people with.
Rather than labeling a policy proposal — as, say, “capitalist” or “socialist” or “free market”(or even as “liberal” or “conservative”) — and then implying someone should like or dislike it because of the label, we should, rather, discuss the impact of a given proposal or policy, and say what we like or don’t like about that.
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@Mule,
Speaking of misuse of loaded terminology (“socialism”, “free market”, etc.), I had to chuckle at the contents of the link you posted. Heritage Foundation rates nations by an “Index of Economic Freedom”? Really? (And Somalia is not at the top of the list? How did that happen?)
Reading in detail how Heritage came up with the rankings for a few selected countries, it’s clear that it’s all ideology, and nothing having to do with actual effect on an economy or on the quality of anyone’s life. For instance, they’re really really upset about the ACA and its impact on America’s “economic freedom” — even though the structure of ACA was their idea.
I can hardly think of a more effective way Heritage could telegraph the message, “Hey everyone! We’re nothing but a partisan propaganda machine!” Even though I approve of truth in advertizing, this is one more reason not to take them seriously
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#428 written by shortchain 10 months ago
If the issue is “socialism”, then it’s never been clear what that means to people who are opposed to it. If the issue is “government intrusion into private markets”, then Switzerland is arguably more in that direction than the USA, where an insurance company is perfectly free to offer what they call “health insurance” and then refuse to pay for healthcare on various grounds — which they internally decide without significant input from the government, the patient, or the patient’s doctor.
I merely point this out in passing. Given the history of Heritage, anyone who is citing it is merely indulging in bias confirmation, so what they say does not matter.
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#429 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
” If the issue is “government intrusion into private markets”, then Switzerland is arguably more in that direction than the USA.…”
If you believe this (erroneous statement), I suggest you do more research on the economy of Switzerland then.
“Given the history of Heritage, anyone who is citing it is merely indulging in bias confirmation, so what they say does not matter.”
And given your blithe dismissals of anything/everything not über-left wing, NOTHING YOU SAY MATTERS!!
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#430 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
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#431 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
I’m sorry, DC, but if you think Somalia should be anywhere near the top of that list, you grossly misunderstand what constitutees economic freedom. And you’re guilty of using the very caricatures I mentioned above. The lawlessness and anarchy that makes up Somalia does not equal economic freedom.
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#432 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
“Reading in detail how Heritage came up with the rankings for a few selected countries, it’s clear that it’s all ideology, and nothing having to do with actual effect on an economy or on the quality of anyone’s life.”
Their results vary little from similar indices produced elsewhere that consistently show countries like Hong Kong, Singapore, and Switzerland as having among the freest markets in the world.
Sorry, you’ll have to do a better job, either quantitatively or qualitatively, making your case as to why their figures should be discredited. Your post comes across as little more than an ad hominem cross-bred with a partisan rant.
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#433 written by shortchain 10 months ago
“similar indices produced elsewhere” — yeah, there’s a whole industry producing bias confirmation and pseudo-education for people who need it. Heritage, Hoover, the fake universities like Liberty U. It’s an indication of the vast amount of money to be made in that business, if you have a strong stomach.
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#434 written by shortchain 10 months ago
A thing I’ve wondered about — do the people who think significant co-pay matters, and who take them into consideration consider the ex-post-facto co-pays? See, in Switzerland, you pay your co-pay, and you are done. In our glorious, market-based system, you pay your co-pay, you get your treatment, and, if my experience is anything to go by, you later get a bill for about 15–30 percent on the grounds that the insurance company refused payment.
This happens to everybody I know (except for a brother who is on the government VA insurance as a disabled veteran). In my case, it’s every single bill.
I’m thinking that a study that doesn’t consider this very significant payment percentage in American healthcare isn’t going to accurately reflect the facts on the ground.
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Mule,
Conversations like this seem to serve two purposes. 1) To show that conservatives aren’t as “anti-regulatory” as their rhetoric implies, and 2) To show that liberals aren’t as “anti-market” as their rhetoric implies.
In many respects that’s true. A rhetoric that is built on absolutes cannot allow for nuance.
Maybe if we’d stop talking past and vilifying each other with caricatures and getting overly pedantic about what exactly is meant when someone says socialist or free market, we’d find many more areas of common ground and compromise.
Sure. And perhaps it would be better if those terms were avoided altogether for the time being, given how loaded they have become.
There are many things about the distribution and sale of petroleum that are “tightly regulated,” if no other reason but for the combustible nature of the product, but ultimately the way it filters into consumer channels through a variety of well-distributed and competing gas stations/convenience stores, where there are relatively limited barriers to entry, is arguably very “market-driven.”
It’s interesting hearing you, as an avowed libertarian, make this observation. I have long been under the impression that your view is such regulations necessarily become crony capitalism. And I’ve long wished you would counter that impression.
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Mule,
Their results vary little from similar indices produced elsewhere that consistently show countries like Hong Kong, Singapore, and Switzerland as having among the freest markets in the world.
That may well be, but when someone uses Heritage as a source for economic information, they should immediately be considered suspect. It’s the same as using the NRA as a source for gun statistics. Whether they’re correct or not, I don’t trust them to accurately portray what’s really happening.
It’s why I avoid using TalkingPointsMemo as a source of data in opposition to Mitt Romney, for example. I might find a story there, but I always trace it back to the source, because it often turns out that the source has something quite different to say about it. And if I can’t trace it back to the source, I don’t use it for anything serious.
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#437 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
““similar indices produced elsewhere” — yeah, there’s a whole industry producing bias confirmation and pseudo-education for people who need it.”
As long as you continue to eschew a fact/logic/evidence-based argument/critique of what Heritage produced and continue to bad mouth constantly over past or current perceived biases, your opinion on the matter is rather obsolete.
If DailyKos came out this afternoon with an index of the shittiest states to live in, in the US and it came out: 1) Mississippi, 2) Arkansas, 3) Tennessee, 4) Alabama, and 5) Louisisana — and they made an attempt at using facts/figures to justify their rankings - and my only response was, “Those left wing maggots obviously don’t know what they’re talking and are just trying to tear down conservative-leaning parts of the country.” but offered nothing of substance in my rebuttal to their methodology, I doubt seriously anyone here would take my critique of their bias seriously.
Either man up and point out flaws in their methodology or keep your mouth shut on the matter. I get ABSOLUTELY SICK AND TIRED of the hypocrisy of many liberals who decry conservatives who try and shout down logical arguments based on facts/evidence with empty ad hominems and hollow accusations of bias but then turn around and DO THE EXACT SAME THING.
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#438 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
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I’m sorry, DC, but if you think Somalia should be anywhere near the
top of that list, you grossly misunderstand what constitutees
economic freedom. And you’re guilty of using the very caricatures I
mentioned above.Heritage Foundation invites caricature, because they are the very epitome of the word.
Of course Somalia is mere lawlessness rather than freedom. My representation of Somalia makes as much sense — and stands on ground just as firm — as does Heritage, where the word “freedom” is tossed around like a sledgehammer, and without any semblance of understanding of what the word actually means.
If Heritage can define “freedom” as “lack of consumer protections,” then I can define it as Somalian-style deregulation. It’s all in how you Rove your boat.
Better: let’s avoid the word in these discussions, for the same reason we want to avoid “socialism” or “free market”. It’s used merely as a weapon in modern politics, not as a term with an actual, you know, meaning.
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#440 written by shortchain 10 months ago
My standard reply to those who suggest that I should deconstruct some POS from Heritage still stands: pay me what the guy at Heritage got, and I’ll gladly study the same topic. Lacking that, there’s nothing in it for me to demonstrate, yet again (how many times is it necessary?) that Heritage:
a) uses cherry-picked data and
b) carefully crafts their metrics so as to reach the conclusions they have been paid for.In short, they’re intellectually dishonest.
Anyone who accepts Heritage results without critical thought is lacking the facility for critical thought or is merely seeking bias confirmation. Sure, there are other organizations which do the same, and not all are on the right — but that’s where the big money is to be made, and, in our mammon-worshiping society, the people who are prone to sell their intellectual honesty for a sou (or a billion) tend to gravitate toward where the money is.
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#441 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
Here’s a challenge. Rather than “shoot the messenger” and keep flinging mud at me, if anyone here has a problem with Heritage’s index on economic freedom, why don’t you put together an evidence-based critique of why the numbers are suspect or go out and find the work of another think tank that comes up with drastically different results.
Until then, your criticism is all but completely invalid.
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I have a problem with the whole idea of an “index of economic freedom.” The phrase itself is mere partisan propagandistic political posturing, not an actual metric that one can critique on “the numbers”. It’s a preposterous idea. What are your units of freedom? Does England measure in metric? Does Switzerland have 4.8 freedoms for every 3.7 of ours?
There is no way to put a decimal number on freedom. That Heritage pretends otherwise is justification for any level of ridicule.
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#443 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
”
“If Heritage can define “freedom” as “lack of consumer protections,” then I can define it as Somalian-style deregulation. It’s all in how you Rove your boat.
Better: let’s avoid the word in these discussions, for the same reason we want to avoid “socialism” or “free market”. It’s used merely as a weapon in modern politics, not as a term with an actual, you know, meaning.”
This post proves that #426 above, where you appear conciliatory and warm to compromising, is nothing but a pantload and your ADDICTED to the same mind-numbing partisan games.
You’re not serious. Never have been. Never will be.
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#444 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
“The phrase itself is mere partisan propagandistic political posturing, not an actual metric that one can critique on “the numbers”. It’s a preposterous idea. What are your units of freedom? Does England measure in metric? Does Switzerland have 4.8 freedoms for every 3.7 of ours?
There is no way to put a decimal number on freedom. That Heritage pretends otherwise is justification for any level of ridicule.”
This is just a cover for ideological willful ignorance. Why don’t you read just how the survey is built and maybe you’ll come away with a more enlightened impression.…not saying you’ll agree with everything. All they’re trying to do is quantify an answer to a question that is constantly being asked.
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#445 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
“It’s a preposterous idea. What are your units of freedom? Does England measure in metric? Does Switzerland have 4.8 freedoms for every 3.7 of ours?”
I think you’re missing the point. It’s not a matter of saying such-and-such country has a measure of 72.9.…now what does that mean? Just how much “freedom” does that represent?
That’s not the general point. Of course it’s not a perfect measure of how “free” a country’s economy is and, being survey-based, there’s an element of sujectivity to it. But you can make some rational observations about where different countries fall in the pecking order. If you have a score of 75–80, that country is probably doing a lot of things right in protecting people’s rights and the free flow of capital throughout the economy. If you have a score of less than 40, such as Cuba, Venezuela, Zimbabwe, and North Korea, arguably you have an economy that’s very restrictive/oppressive.
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#446 written by Max 10 months ago
Maybe if we’d stop talking past and vilifying each other with caricatures and getting overly pedantic about what exactly is meant when someone says socialist or free market, we’d find many more areas of common ground and compromise.
That is kinda hard to do when I picture you barefoot, with a straw hat, flannel shirt and Oshkosh (b’gosh) overalls, astride the back of a long-eared, equine crossbreed, toting a cane pole and a Mississippi mudcat!
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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#447 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
Michael,
You’re band of hooligans are at it again. Keep in mind how this last round of arguments unfolded and how it was ignited. Let’s look very closely at what I tried to use the Heritage information for.…I didn’t come in here making some bold claim like, “See, look, the US has fallen to 10th in economic freedom!! OMG!!! We’re socialist and this proves it!!! Increasing number of countries more FREE than we are!!!! OMG we’re doomed!!!”
No, not even close. Just posted something that shows — and, again, you can do your own independent research of the Swiss economy, and you’re going to find much the same thing — that in terms of being a “market-driven” and/or “free” economy, Switzerland receives some pretty high marks. Nothing crazy. Nothing fancy. Yet all hell breaks loose with a truckload of ideological BULLSHIT.
You wanna know why this site is absolute ****ing trash. Look no further than the past 20 posts and one simple statement and link turned into a mud-slinging, condescending ideological affair.
This is beyond exhausting, and I don’t have time for it. You can sit on it and spin for all I care.
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That’s not the general point.
I disagree. If Heritage is going to put a number on it — to the nearest tenth for godssake! — then they need to define units. A Freedom Index of 75.2 is 75.2 what? Pounds? Inches? Watts? Does Freedom of Speech weigh more or less than Freedom to Sell Botulism?
If you have a score of 75–80, that country is probably doing a lot of
things right in protecting people’s rights and the free flow of
capital throughout the economy.No, if a country has a score of 75–80, then Heritage likes their politics, or wants to use their politics to make a political point.
The “people’s rights” Heritage is talking about apparently don’t include such things as the right to not be taken advantage of by usurious bankers, or the right to have insured pensions, or the right to universal health care. By “people’s rights”, Heritage mostly means oligarchs get to do pretty much whatever they want, and the rest of us have to let them do it. The “rights” Heritage tends to like don’t include many of the rights that I value.
So I find their argument laughable and their numbers meaningless, except as a rather transparent propaganda tool.
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Just posted something that shows — and, again, you can do your own
independent research of the Swiss economy, and you’re going to find
much the same thing — that in terms of being a “market-driven” and/or
“free” economy, Switzerland receives some pretty high marks.I understand that. But see, Switzerland has “pretty high marks” according to an ill-defined scale from a source that is simply making political arguments, not any sort of objective study. I could rejuggle the thigns I personally think are important, and give them really low marks — like taking lots of points off for being a tax haven where megabillionairs can park their ass(ets) and avoid their responsibilities as citizens of other nations. That’s not “economic freedom.” It’s thievery. And it’s typical of Heritage.
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Mule, what happened is that you made a very reasonable point about avoiding charged terminology that obfuscates, rather than clarifies, a discussion — words like “socialism” and “free market”. Then you ended the comment with a link to a place that does nothing but obfuscate conversations with charged terminology — and, specifically, you linked to a page that is the very epitome of the concept of political obfuscation.
Don’t you see the dichotomy?
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#451 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
“No, if a country has a score of 75–80, then Heritage likes their politics, or wants to use their politics to make a political point. ”
Fair enough. I take it, then, that if it’s a country that Heritage likes their politics, it’s one you’re probably not fond of.…ergo, you’re probably more fond of countries/economies that Heritage isn’t fond of.…okay, let’s look towards the bottom and see what we have. Okay, we have North Korea and Zimbabwe ranked at the bottom. It’s my assumption, then, that you would prefer our economy more closely resemble those two’s.
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#452 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
“Then you ended the comment with a link to a place that does nothing but obfuscate conversations with charged terminology — and, specifically, you linked to a page that is the very epitome of the concept of political obfuscation.”
My only mistake was forgetting what a bunch of mind-numbing partisan asshats you all are and how quickly you’d start foaming at the mouth the second you saw the word “heritage.”
This has been an all-out assault on me for ABSOLUTELY NO REASON. I made a very simple point about the Swiss being a very market-driven economy, and all hell has needlessly broken loose.
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#453 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
“.…not any sort of objective study. I could rejuggle the thigns I personally think are important.….”
The difference is that you are an ECONOMIC ILLITERATE and your opinions of objective measures that are important to consider in determining whether a country’s economy is “free” or not is practically irrelevant.
I don’t give two shits what you think. Neither does anyone else.
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#454 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
Alll I know is that if I made this statement —
By the way, it’s not unreasonable to think Switzerland would do something more “market-driven” than here in the US. We’d do well to pattern more things after them
- and left it right there, this thread doesn’t come close to devolving the way it has, and that’s an indictment of just how big of a shithole this is. It’s nothing more than a safe haven for mouth-breathing leftist extremists to vent paranoia and IDEOLOGICAL BULLSHIT. It has ZERO credibility as a forum for honest and logical discussion of the issues.
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Mule,
This has been an all-out assault on me for ABSOLUTELY NO REASON.
Not at all. The assault, such as it is, has been directed at the use of Heritage as a resource. I explained to you already why it’s not a particularly good choice. You then asked for critiques of their analysis, and you got literally exactly what you asked for. The critiques basically boil down to the subjective nature of the data provided.
It doesn’t mean that Heritage is wrong; it merely means that they’re suspect. But don’t turn those critiques into personal attacks on you. They’re not.
I made a very simple point about the Swiss being a very market-driven economy
And that may well be the case. I don’t know enough to assess it. I just wouldn’t trust the Heritage Foundation to tell me, regardless. And I believe I explained why in pretty good detail. Do you disagree with my motivation?
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Mule, I haven’t been assaulting you. I’ve been describing why I don’t find Heritage worthwhile. You needn’t take it personally. I don’t mind that you dislike some of the writers and analysts I find convincing (want to take a few shots at Krugman?)
I take it, then, that if it’s a country that Heritage likes their politics, it’s one you’re probably not fond of…
You’re making a false assumption. My point is that I wouldn’t be dishonest enough to assign numerical values to fuzzy concepts for the sake of making a political point, just so I could proclaim how important “freedom” is to me.
There’s a secondary point that Heritage is trying to make, that people who value other sorts of economic metrics don’t approve of “freedom”. That’s the political hammer I was talking about, and that’s precisely why Heritage uses the word.
The form of oligarchy that Heritage likes is not synonymous with “economic freedom.” The social programs that Heritage dislikes are not necessarily in opposition to “economic freedom”. The freedom for the average person to have a dignified retirement is something I see a far more important than the freedom from subsidized health care that Heritage is currently pushing.
My point is that Heritage is not a good source here.
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#458 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
“See, that’s what a personal attack looks like.”
No shit, Sherlock. When the argument from the left side boils down to litlte more than a personal attack amounting to “Heritage is nothing but biased bullshit/propaganda” bereft of a logic-based argument to provide an alternative way of looking at things, then I figure what’s good for the goose is good for the gander and have taken the liberty of firing a few pot-shots of my own.
Like I said above, if I make the statement about Switzerland and leave it at that, I highly doubt much extra is said on the matter. But once the word “heritage” entered the dialogue — catnip for liberals — it unnecessarily devolved into a pissing contest.
But, Michael, since you’ve sanctioned and presumably endorsed how this has gone down, then you’re no better than the rest of the pigs here more interested in wallowing in the mud rather than making a reasonable attempt at honest/logical debate.
Peace out, then. I’ve got nothing mroe for you guys. On this or anything else.
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#459 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
“The freedom for the average person to have a dignified retirement is something I see a far more important than the freedom from subsidized health care that Heritage is currently pushing.”
HITF do you even know that plays ANY significant role in the index?????
You’re just projecting your own ridiculous suspicions and paranoia onto it to cast doubt!!
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#460 written by Max 10 months ago
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I’m sorry, but as long as someone like shortchain is allowed regular participation here, I don’t think there’s much room for me to hang around.
Sorry, been nice knowin’ you all, but I’ve got bigger fish to fry.
2 1⁄2 hours later …
Peace out, then. I’ve got nothing mroe for you guys. On this or anything else.
We’ve seen this movie before.
And almost word for word lol to previous disingenuous, childish rants. Maybe a little creativity next time … never mind.I’m sorry shortchain. You’re just gonna have to go as shilohbuster cannot co-exist w/you anymore.
Personal attacks aside, fili returned just in time as MR needs another hug …
>
btw, shilohbuster is still participating in this thread ?!? His fish must not be so big.
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#462 written by GROG 10 months ago
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#463 written by GROG 10 months ago
DC,
That means the ACA is more “market oriented” … and therefore you have no problem with the ACA, and in fact, you fully support it. Right?
No. ACA is not at all more “market oriented”. In Switzerland, everyone buys insurance for himself. That is not the case in the U.S. where most everyone (around 90% anyway) receives coverage through their employer or the government. I don’t see that ACA does anything to change that.
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#464 written by Max 9 months ago
In Switzerland, everyone buys insurance for himself. That is not the case in the U.S. where most everyone (around 90% anyway) receives coverage through their employer or the government.
You know that the Swiss have a statutory REQUIREMENT so stating, don’t you?
Since you hold forth the Dutch and Swiss models as “market based”, then you have no qualms about going on the record that you support those same models being used as the basis of US health insurance.
Right?
And in answer to your question to shortchain: No, I would not prefer it over single payer. But I would be willing to accept it in the meantime.
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#466 written by shortchain 9 months ago
GROG,
I want quality health care for the lowest cost, I’m not ideological (no matter what you may have heard). As I’ve already said, I like the Swiss solution.The only problem we have in this country with implementing something like it is the work connection, where people here get their insurance through work, it would be necessary to first wean the populace away from that. I’m not going to predict future events with any great hope of being accurate, but it seems to me that this neither-fish-nor-flesh-nor-fowl system we’re putting into place at present will not be stable and sustainable. It will either evolve into single-payer or it will evolve in the direction of a Swiss-like system. Maybe it will go single-payer first, and then, if it doesn’t work out, toward the other way.
I think the most ridiculous position to take would be to assume we can, at present, create a solution to the problem that will be forever ideal as time goes by.
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But once the word “heritage” entered the dialogue — catnip for liberals —
I don’t care who tries to assign a numerical value to an “index of freedom”. It’s a stupid idea. It’s stupid on its own — it isn’t Heritage that does it which makes it stupid. That Heritage does it says something about Heritage, not about the dumb idea.
HITF do you even know that [ACA] plays ANY significant role in the index?????
I read what the site said, that’s HITF. I checked what Heritage said about their score for the United States. As part of their score for “rule of law”, which includes a worsening score for “Freedom From Corruption”, they said, in part,
Serious constitutional questions related to government-mandated health insurance have been under consideration in the courts.
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ACA is not at all more “market oriented”. In Switzerland,
everyone buys insurance for himself. That is not the case in the U.S.
where most everyone (around 90% anyway) receives coverage through
their employer or the government. I don’t see that ACA does anything
to change that.Employers don’t buy insurance on the open market?
Switzerland doesn’t regulate the market to enforce minimum coverages and maximum rates?
I think you’re concentrating on meaningless detail.
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#469 written by GROG 9 months ago
Max,
You know that the Swiss have a statutory REQUIREMENT so stating, don’t you?
Yes.
Michael,
Does that mean you would support a prohibition against employers providing health care coverage?
That’s a tough one. I don’t like the word “prohibition”, but I think our employer providing healthcare system needs to go.
shorthchain,
I agree with you in 466. I think if you look at healthcare systems around the world, the most consumer based systems work the best, but from what I read and hear, the progressive left will not be satisfied without an eventual single payer system in the U.S.
DC,
Employers don’t buy insurance on the open market?
Yes, they do, but employers are not the consumer of health insurance. They are the provider.
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#470 written by Max 9 months ago
GROG,
Since you refuse to answer the question I’ve posed twice, maybe you’ll answer this:
Since you say the Swiss system is “market based” and Obamacare is “socialist”, please explain exactly HOW and WHY you come to those conclusions, and which system, given only a choice of the two, YOU would prefer.
Thanks
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#471 written by shortchain 9 months ago
GROG,
The Netherlands has, according to polls, the best healthcare in Europe — but they pay a premium for it. The Swiss have good healthcare, but not as good as some others. Cuba has superb healthcare, but I don’t care for the side-effects.Thanks for the conversation. I take away some more understanding of some systems that I hadn’t looked at before. By the way, 40 percent of the Swiss population gets subsidies to pay for their healthcare. Just an interesting little factoid. And another: it’s left unsaid, but people in Switzerland who don’t buy health insurance cannot be refused treatment — but it appears the penalties for not buying can include criminal penalties.
Does anyone else suspect that, if Obama and the Democrats proposed a Swiss-like system, the GOP would come out violently opposed to it?
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employers are not the consumer of health insurance. They are the provider.
No. Employers are the buyers. As you say, they buy insurance on the market. So we have market-based insurance.
If I bought insurance for my family, and my kid got injured, he wouldn’t be the buyer either. Does that mean his insurance wasn’t bought on the market?
By the way, there is no “consumer” of insurance. There is a “consumer” for health care. For insurance, there are purchasers (i.e., “buyers”) and providers (who are the insurance companies, not the purchasers).
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Does anyone else suspect that, if Obama and the Democrats proposed a
Swiss-like system, the GOP would come out violently opposed to it?There’s no question of that.
Or if we already had a Canadian-type system, and Obama proposed a system such as we have right now (well, such as we had in 2008), Republicans would oppose that, too.
Or if the Republicans proposed some system, and Obama said, “Hey, that’s a good idea! Let’s do that!” the Republicans would also oppose it. (this is what happened, by the way.)
It doesn’t matter. Republicans would oppose any Obama proposal.
Oh, and no matter what it was, they’d call it “socialist” and an “attack on freedom.” (Even if it was their idea.) Which is why I don’t take anyone seriously who says such things.
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GROG,
I don’t like the word “prohibition”, but I think our employer providing healthcare system needs to go.
I do, too. It’s probably the single greatest cause of our healthcare being so expensive. So…how do you propose we get there? Nothing that has been seriously proposed to date other than single payer would do it. A prohibition on employer-supplied coverage would do it too, but you don’t like that one, either. So…how do you propose we get there?
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#476 written by GROG 9 months ago
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#477 written by GROG 9 months ago
sc,
The Netherlands has, according to polls, the best healthcare in Europe — but they pay a premium for it. The Swiss have good healthcare, but not as good as some others.
The Netherlands and Switzerland are 2 of the richest nations in the world, so naturally they are going to spend more on their healthcare relative to other nations.
Thanks for the conversation. I take away some more understanding of some systems that I hadn’t looked at before.
Me as well. Thank you.
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#478 written by mclever 9 months ago
@GROG
I have never said Obamacare is “socialist”, not [sic] do I think it is “socialist”.
This comment illustrates why it’s important to actually listen to what someone else is saying rather than making assumptions based on the similarity of their words to the perceived “talking points” of the political opposition. (I’m saying that as a criticism of myself and others here, not as a criticism of you.)
My impression from the tenor of the conversation has been that you did consider Obamacare to be more socialist than not. Looking back over your comments and in complete fairness to you, you have used “socialist” in the healthcare conversation, but you certainly have not ever said anything remotely equating Obamacare to a “socialist takeover of healthcare” as many of us have heard from other conservative sources. Liberals are supposed to be good at distinguishing shades of gray. If we’re not careful about distinguishing between something being “more socialist” and something being a “socialist takeover”, then we end up arguing with a moderate as if they were an extremist.
Not that I’m saying you’re necessarily a moderate, but your views on healthcare coverage and the pursuit of a better solution are at least as nuanced and varied as are my own. And I consider that a good thing, because it means we might be able to find common ground from which we can begin to build something.
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#480 written by GROG 9 months ago
Michael,
So…how do you propose we get there?
Regulate insurance companies so that they would have to charge the same rate regardless of health status, age, gender, etc. That would, in essence, make one large “group”. Employers would no longer be needed for group ratings. I think that would wean us off the employer based provider system. Insurance companies could compete on price, quality, and service. Consumers could shop based on price, quality, and service, etc.
Michael, I’m curious. Do you favor a single payer system over a consumer driven health care system like that of Switzerland?
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#481 written by rgbact 9 months ago
Regulate insurance companies so that they would have to charge the
same rate regardless of health status, age, gender, etc.
Clearly you would need a mandate then. You appear to be proposing Obamacare Plus, minus the Medicaid expansion.
Can we do the same for auto insurance? Everyone pays the same. Might as well, huh? -
#482 written by GROG 9 months ago
mclever,
Thanks for the comments.
This comment illustrates why it’s important to actually listen to what someone else is saying rather than making assumptions based on the similarity of their words to the perceived “talking points” of the political opposition.
Well said and I’m guilty of not doing that as well.
My use of “socialism” on this thread was in response to a question posed to me regarding why I think citizens of countries with single payer systems would not trade their system for ours. Michael later listed certain countries and asked if I thought those healtcare systems are “socialist”.
Never did I infer that I believe PPACA is socialist. To answer Max’s question, it appears to me that it will still be a market based system, but not nearly to the extent that it should be or to what The Netherlands or Switzerland has in place.
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#483 written by GROG 9 months ago
Clearly you would need a mandate then. You appear to be proposing Obamacare Plus, minus the Medicaid expansion.
My proposal would be much different and much more market and consumer driven than Obamare would ever come close to.
Can we do the same for auto insurance? Everyone pays the same. Might as well, huh?
Auto insurance is not group rated the same way the health insurance industry is. If you have employer provided health insurance, everyone pays the same. Why should it be any different if all citizens are essentially in the same group?
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#484 written by mclever 9 months ago
@GROG
Am I to understand that you consider the Swiss and Dutch systems to be “more market based” than the PPACA/Obamacare will be in the USA because those systems do not tie health coverage to the employer?
As with the spat over the Heritage Foundation’s ranking of “economic freedom,” I think that the criteria for deciding whether something is more or less market-based may be in the eye of the beholder. The Swiss, Dutch, and German systems are all much more regulated than what Obamacare will be in terms of what coverage plans may be offered and the limiting of profits for coverage providers. They aren’t true single-payer systems, but they are similar in the way they operate by ensuring that everyone gets the same coverage and same care for the same price (with significant subsidies for as much as 40% of the population and criminal penalties rather than negligible fines for failure to purchase coverage), regardless of which company they actually use as the actuarial middle-man. From my perspective, Obamacare is a step in the direction of the Swiss system, which would definitely be an improvement over where things have been for us here.
If your goal is the elimination of the tie between the employer and the health coverage provider, then I agree with you. I think Obamacare was trying to split the baby, so to speak, and was afraid to make so much of a drastic change all at once, which is why the changes in Obamacare are mostly tweaks rather than a true overhaul of our healthcare system.
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#485 written by rgbact 9 months ago
Auto insurance is not group rated the same way the health insurance
industry is.Thats only cause no employer I know of offers auto insurance and employers choose to subsidize their older employees and not make them pay more than other employees.
If you have employer provided health insurance, everyone pays the same. Why should it be any different if all citizens are essentially in the same group?
Not sure what your goal is. “Purchasing as a group” could be called “socialistic” and is what alot of people don’t like about the current system. You want more group purchasing.….yet think its “consumerism”? Seems conflicted. Shall we all be mandated to buy grocery store coupons and pay the same amount for them no matter how much we each eat? Would that be market based? Please explain where the consumerism takes place. -
GROG,
Regulate insurance companies so that they would have to charge the same rate regardless of health status, age, gender, etc.
Really? You’d support this? I must say that comes as a surprise to me.
In any case, I don’t think that’d do much for eliminating company-provided coverage. For white– and blue-collar workers, it’s too deeply ingrained for this to be enough, near as I can tell. For Wal-collar workers, it wouldn’t change a thing about their employer-provided coverage, since they don’t get any now.
One thing that would probably push the white-collar employers to drop it, though, would be eliminating the tax deduction they currently receive for providing the coverage. That wouldn’t be as effective as prohibition, but it would take care of the bulk of the current white-collars. I suspect it would still be demanded by executives, though.
Michael, I’m curious. Do you favor a single payer system over a consumer driven health care system like that of Switzerland?
I’m not sure. I don’t think the bulk of healthcare is well-suited to comparison shopping, because of the infrequency of purchase decisions, coupled with the relative urgency of the most expensive and serious claims. That makes the market forces a lot weaker than they would be for many other purchases.
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#487 written by GROG 9 months ago
mclever,
Am I to understand that you consider the Swiss and Dutch systems to be “more market based” than the PPACA/Obamacare will be in the USA because those systems do not tie health coverage to the employer?
I think one thing that makes the Swiss to be so consumer driven is the percent of out of pocket payments as a percentage of total expenditures. The Swiss pay 30% of total health expenditures out of pocket. The most in the world by far. In the U.S., we pay 13%. That has to change.
http://www.kff.org/insurance/upload/7852.pdfWe need more Health Savings Accounts, higher copayments, and more high deductible plans if we want to lower health care costs.
Several years ago, I tore ligaments in my ankle. At work, we had a rather low deductible, something like $1500, plan. My injury occured in Novemer and I had already met my deductible. My doctors gave me all the bells and whistles. I had an MRI, a ridiculously expensive boot, the nicest set of crutches I had ever seen (I could have gone to Walgreens and bought a pair for 20 bucks), weeks worth of physical therapy at a top of the line clinic with hours of one on one time with a physicla therapists. I basically did stretching excercises with a rubber band. It cost my insurance company tens of thousands of dollars. I paid a $20 copay.
Because my company could no longer afford to offer that type of plan, we now offer a high deductible, HSA for our employees. We help them fund it every year and every employee voluntarily has a portion of their paycheck payroll deducted into the account.
If we had that plan when I tore up my ankle, I promise you I would have gone to Walgreens for those crutches, I would have checked out different physical therapy clinics, and I would have shopped MRI rates. That’s what I mean by consumer driven healthcare.
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#488 written by GROG 9 months ago
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#489 written by rgbact 9 months ago
That’s what insurance is. In health insurance, the healthy subsidize the sick.
Not really. At least not at purchase. In theory, lottery losers subsidize those that win. However, that doesn’t mean people will happily buy their “lottery ticket” if they know the game is stacked against them ever winning.
My injury occured in November and I had already met my deductible. My doctors gave me all the bells and whistles. I had an MRI, a ridiculously expensive boot, the nicest set of crutches I had ever seen
Yep, I had something similar few years ago. Then I had a similar injury recently while self insured. Never went to the doctor and bought a boot/splint for cheap off Amazon. Seems OK. I don’t know why there aren’t super cut rate providers for stuff like this.…so I totally agree with you on this stuff. -
#490 written by mclever 9 months ago
@GROG
Thanks for your explanation of what you think it means to be market-driven, and your example of the sprained ankle. I think the problem with “consumer-driven” healthcare (as noted by Michael) is that the most expensive things are also often the most urgent with the fewest choices, especially in some parts of the country where the number of clinics offering a particular service might be limited. When you’re unconscious in the back of the ambulance, there’s not usually an opportunity to check which hospital is likely to be the cheapest for the treatments that you might need, assuming the EMTs even know what your problem might be.
Also, I worry about expecting a middle class blue-collar worker to pony up 30% of the costs for a prolonged cancer treatment, for example. I know my aunt’s bills this spring were over a million dollars, but she was covered (thankfully) by the insurance plan at the university where she’d worked as a nurse for forty years. Even so, the family had to take out loans against their home to cover some of the costs which stretched into the tens of thousands. They certainly couldn’t have afforded $300,000 out of pocket, and neither could most of the 99% of Americans. How does Switzerland handle cases like that? If you can’t pay the 30%, what do they do, stop treating you? Do they expect you to reach bankruptcy before they decide the costs are too high for you? Are you supposed to drain your retirement funds to pay for a medical emergency? What if 30% of the costs are more than all of your total savings combined?
One of my big problems with our current system is that I don’t believe someone should ever go bankrupt due to medical costs that are (or should be) covered by insurance, yet that happens to thousands of Americans every year. It happened over a decade ago to another cousin in Seattle when her broken back maxed out two separate coverage plans (both the one provided by her employer and the one from her husband’s employer that only kicked in after the first one was maxed). She ended up suing and settling for a third of the total costs after lawyers’ fees were deducted, and the money immediately went to her outstanding medical bills. Which still left her bankrupt, but not in quite as big of a hole. But her problem wasn’t that she couldn’t shop around. Her problem was that surgery and prolonged hospital stays even at the cheapest hospital in the area and ongoing physical therapy even from the cheapest clinic in the area are expensive, and the insurance companies reneged on covering everything when there were complications.
Also, the current healthcare system makes it difficult to shop for different services, because the insurance companies are rarely up front about what the costs will be, so the consumer is left with guessing and then getting hit with a surprise price-tag later. This has happened to me multiple times where I later found out that another option would have been cheaper despite my attempts to research my choices in advance. “Is this covered?” “Yes.” “How much will it cost me?” “We can’t tell you that until we get the bill from the provider.” “Well, what’s my co-pay?” “$10, plus 20% if the bill exceeds our guidelines.” “Well, what are your guidelines?” “I’m sorry, that’s proprietary.” So then you call the doctor to ask what they’ll charge the insurance company, and they’ll only quote you the uninsured price and not the price they’ve negotiated with your insurer, because that information is confidential. So, you’re left guessing…
If that’s what “market-driven” means, then it sucks.
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rgbact,
that doesn’t mean people will happily buy their “lottery ticket” if they know the game is stacked against them ever winning.
And yet they do, don’t they?
GROG,
We need more Health Savings Accounts, higher copayments, and more high deductible plans if we want to lower health care costs.
Not necessarily. Yes, it can help reduce some unnecessary expenses, but it has the side effect of also creating some unnecessary expenses. People often choose the path of a cheaper short term at the expense of a much greater long term cost. The system you describe is likely to push things in that very direction.
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#492 written by mclever 9 months ago
@GROG
Another thing that your sprained ankle example illustrates is the corrupting influence of doctors/hospitals who get paid per treatment rather than a salary. If the doctors were going to get a flat amount regardless of what treatment(s) they recommended to you, then they probably would have followed the minimum guidelines rather than splurging, so to speak. That’s one of the issues that the model at the Mayo Clinic attempts to address while still maintaining a very high quality of patient care yet at 1⁄3 the cost of the typical Texas hospital.
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Don’t forget that the average salary for an orthopedic surgeon in the US is $413K. A neurologist friend of mine used to say that “when you’re a hammer, everything looks like a nail” and my experience has been that when you’re an orthopedic surgeon everything looks like an income opportunity.
You could’ve gotten the same standard of care from a PT making $75K. The PT would’ve had to hire someone to read the MRI scan but that wouldn’t have cost as much.What I am trying to say is that the system is broken at a lot of levels, and will not be easy to fix. -
#495 written by mclever 9 months ago
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#496 written by GROG 9 months ago
mclever,
Also, I worry about expecting a middle class blue-collar worker to pony up 30% of the costs for a prolonged cancer treatment, for example.….. They certainly couldn’t have afforded $300,000 out of pocket, and neither could most of the 99% of Americans.
Keep in mind that the 30% is not a percent that individuals pay out of pocket, “but the aggregate percent of country-wide expenditures paid by out-of-pocket household spending”. A Swiss patient doesn’t pay $300,000 for a million dollars worth of caner treatment. It goes back to the healthy subsidizing the sick with premiums, deductibles, copays, etc.
Also, the current healthcare system makes it difficult to shop for different services, because the insurance companies are rarely up front about what the costs will be, so the consumer is left with guessing and then getting hit with a surprise price-tag later.
I believe competition would solve many of those problems when consumers begin shopping for the best rates and service and stop relying on employer provided plans.
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#497 written by mclever 9 months ago
@GROG
It’s nice to think that competing insurers would solve all the problems, but there are too many systemic issues for that alone to solve everything. I just gave you an example of how trying to shop around doesn’t work, and not just because of the insurance company, but because of the opacity and confusion in how medical procedures are billed at all. The medical care providers are just as much at fault for the way they price things as the insurance companies are for clouding how they’ll pay for it. That’s not something that competition alone will cure.
Nevermind that “competition” is only useful for routine, non-emergency treatments that make up only a fraction of medical costs. Competition simply isn’t feasible for many of the most expensive elements of patient care.
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GROG,
I believe competition would solve many of those problems when consumers begin shopping for the best rates and service and stop relying on employer provided plans.
It sounds good at a topline view, but when you dig into it, the details make it fall apart. For example, if someone changes companies/policies, is the new company/policy obligated to cover treatments that the new policy would ordinarily cover, even if the previous policy did not cover it? All possible answers to that question are rife with trouble.
But the biggest issue is that, while we all consume medical care, we don’t do it often. This makes us far less able to make intelligent decisions about who to choose for coverage. Not to pat myself on the back, but I think I’m far better informed than the average American…and yet when I had to buy my own medical insurance I was unable to determine what would be the best policy for me. If it was so hard for me, I can’t imagine it would be a cakewalk for the majority of Americans.
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About Michael Weiss (322 posts)
Michael is a jack of many trades, and master of a few. His varied background includes government and private businesses, both large and small. His experience in the financial services and computer industries has led him to computer security.







Michael,
What are the differences between the Canadian, UK, and German healthcare systems? Are all three socialist systems?
UK — Highly centralized single payer system. The British government pays directly for healthcare out of general tax revenues. Most physicians and nurses are government employees. Socialized? Yes.
Germany — They have a national insurance system. All citizens under a certain income are required to enroll in a “sickness fund” which are paid for by payroll taxes split between the employee and employer. Socialized? Yes.
Canada — Single payer system paid for with income taxes. No deductibles for most care and co-pays are very low. Socialized? Yes.