Threading the Needle
Ever since the Supreme Court heard oral arguments on the constitutionality of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA, “Obamacare”) individual mandate, pundits have been predicting that the mandate is dead. The remaining question would then be: will the Supreme Court find the law severable, that is, can the mandate be ruled unconstitutional but the rest of the law stands? Or does the whole thing go down because of an unacceptable mandate?
The Supreme Court finally answered today. By a five-to-four vote (Justices Breyer, Ginsburg, Kagan, and Sotomayor dissenting), the individual mandate was technically struck down as a violation of the Commerce Clause, but by a different five-to-four vote (Justices Alito, Kennedy, Scalia, and Thomas dissenting) the fine for being uninsured was not. In that regard, the Court threaded the needle, objecting to the “illegality” of being uninsured, while leaving the relevant penalty in the Act unchanged.
This decision is certainly a huge win for the Obama administration at first blush. But it may prove to be less of a win for Obama himself.
I’ll explain that in greater detail in a bit, but first let’s examine what just happened.
The mandate took on the form of revisions to section 5000A(a) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986. From Chapter 48 of PPACA (section breaks and designators removed):
If a taxpayer who is an applicable individual, or an applicable individual for whom the taxpayer is liable … fails to meet the requirement … for 1 or more months, then, [barring an acceptable exception] there is hereby imposed on the taxpayer a penalty.
Subsection (a) sets the requirements for an acceptable health plan:
The term ‘minimum essential coverage’ means any of the following:
GOVERNMENT SPONSORED PROGRAMS.—Coverage under the Medicare program … the Medicaid program … the CHIP program .… TRICARE … veteran’s health care program, or a health plan [for] Peace Corps volunteers.
EMPLOYER-SPONSORED PLAN.—Coverage under an eligible employer-sponsored plan.PLANS IN THE INDIVIDUAL MARKET.—Coverage under a health plan offered in the individual market within a State.
GRANDFATHERED HEALTH PLAN.—Coverage under a grandfathered health plan.
OTHER COVERAGE.—Such other health benefits coverage, such as a State health benefits risk pool, as the Secretary of Health and Human Services … recognizes for purposes of this subsection.
The Court concluded that the “shared responsibility payment” charged to those who do not have medical coverage does, in fact, amount to a tax. And there is a long history of taxes being attached to people’s behaviors, such that they can change behavior to avoid a tax. Since Congress has the authority to impose taxes, that makes the mandate constitutional.
The Court’s decision to not permit the law under the Commerce and Necessary & Proper Clauses lays an important precedent. It is, in essence, a shot across the bow of Congress to warn that coercion through taxation may be fine, but not mandating behavior with stronger force, such as criminality.
In any case, because the mandate-as-tax was upheld, severability became moot.
The pundits felt, based on oral arguments, that the mandate was a dead letter. This is reflected in the Intrade betting market on the death of the individual mandate, starting with oral arguments on March 27:
Before oral arguments, the consensus was that the mandate had about a 50 percent chance of survival. After the news of the oral arguments settled in, with CNN’s analyst Jeffrey Toobin making a strong case for the death of the mandate:
This still looks like a train wreck for the Obama administration, and it may also be a plane wreck. This entire law is now in serious trouble. It also seems that the individual mandate is doomed. I mean, Anthony Kennedy spent much of this morning talking about if we strike down the individual mandate, how should we handle the rest of the law? Now, it is less clear that they are going to strike down the whole law. There does seem to be some controversy in the court about that. Certainly there are some members of the court — Antonin Scalia, Justice Alito — who want to strike down the entire law, but it seemed almost a foregone conclusion today that they were going to strike down the individual mandate, and the only question is does the whole law go out the window with it?
After Toobin’s words sunk in, the markets pushed the percentage chance up to 60⁄40. The buzz around the death of the mandate meme grew, so that by the day before the decision, the chance was 80⁄20. In this case, the pundits were right.
Other court observers, such as SCOTUSblog’s Amy Howe, were more sanguine about the chances for the mandate’s survival. She wrote at the time:
With several Justices apparently dubious of the government’s arguments, two exchanges toward the end of Carvin’s argument stood out as potentially helpful to the government and may have given at least a glimmer of hope to the mandate’s supporters. The first came from Justice Elena Kagan, who asked Carvin whether he might have an easier argument if he weren’t arguing that the mandate is always unconstitutional, but instead that the mandate is at least unconstitutional as it applies to specific people (for example, Christian Scientists) who clearly were not going to be a part of the health care market and, by declining to buy insurance, would not incur health care costs that would be shifted to the rest of us. That line of reasoning might provide the Court with a way to uphold the mandate generally, while leaving open the possibility that individuals who object to the mandate could still challenge it.
The second, and possibly even more important, comment came from Justice Anthony Kennedy, a key swing vote on the Court. Justice Kennedy appeared to voice some sympathy for the government’s argument that the health care market is “unique.” Even if a healthy young person without insurance may not need health care in a particular time period, he reasoned, that young person will nonetheless be “very close” to having an effect on insurance rates – for example, on the theory that, as he ages, he will eventually need care that he can’t afford without insurance – in a way that just doesn’t happen in other markets.
In this case, Justice Kennedy came down on the side of the unconstitutionality of the mandate, which was predicted by his musings in response to Solicitor General Verrelli’s argument:
But the reason, the reason this is concerning, is because it requires the individual to do an affirmative act. In the law of torts our tradition, our law, has been that you don’t have the duty to rescue someone if that person is in danger. The blind man is walking in front of a car and you do not have a duty to stop him absent some relation between you. And there is some severe moral criticisms of that rule, but that’s generally the rule.
And here the government is saying that the Federal Government has a duty to tell the individual citizen that it must act, and that is different from what we have in previous cases and that changes the relationship of the Federal Government to the individual in the very fundamental
Yet, in a surprise move, Kennedy was not the swing vote in this decision; Roberts was.
The only restriction of substance to come out of this decision was a warning that the federal government may not withhold Medicare funds to states that are in compliance with the law as it existed prior to the PPACA.
As I said above, this decision looks like a huge win for the Obama administration, yet not necessarily for Obama.
To be sure, for those who understand what it means to be subject to annual and lifetime caps, and restrictions on coverage for preexisting conditions, this is clearly a big win for all of us. But most Americans are blithely unaware that there are issues with preexisting conditions. After all, a majority get their coverage through their employers, and employer-supplied coverage rarely excludes preexisting conditions in the first place. And for those whose policies do exclude preexisting conditions, a relatively small percentage of them ever find themselves in need of treatment for one. The same can be said for lifetime caps. Few people know that they’re there, and fewer still realize how easy it is to bump into those restrictions.
So, while it benefits those who don’t yet know they’ll need it, most Americans won’t even notice the preexisting condition and lifetime cap changes.
Furthermore, many Americans are woefully ignorant about the very existence of the law. Nearly a quarter of Americans polled in February believed that the PPACA had already been repealed. With the significant press surrounding today’s ruling, the number who today believed that it had been repealed prior to February is most likely significantly lower. Nonetheless, this points to upcoming political posturing from the Republicans.
Expect to hear for the next several months that the oh-so-unpopular Obamacare is still around, and won’t go away until Obama goes away. This will still be a somewhat difficult postition for Republican Presidential candidate Mitt Romney to take, since it will require that spend time defending his earlier actions with respect to Romneycare.
And that messaging will put Democrats on the defensive. As should be abundantly clear by now, when it comes to messaging, Democrats lose the messaging battle whenever nuance enters into the equation. Yet the response must necessarily be nuanced: “Yes, the mandate remains, but the lifetime caps and preexisting condition coverage go along with that.” Yeah, that fits on a bumper sticker just fine, doesn’t it?
The decision, then, hands a campaigning gift to the Republican Party, and provides to them a rallying cry of “Defeat Obama to Defeat Obamacare!”
In the end, then, we’re left with the realization that both sides got something they wanted. Democrats got the policy, and Republicans got messaging for this year’s campaigns. Just as with Arizona v. United States earlier this week, you can be sure Republicans will walk away declaring victory, even when the reality is exactly the opposite. And it seems that a substantial percentage of Americans will believe them.
Related articles
- Poll: Americans don’t like Obamacare, but love what’s in it (americablog.com)

This entry was posted by Michael Weiss on June 28, 2012 at 8:15 am, and is filed under Breaking News, Supreme Court Watch. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0.You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.
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#103 written by shortchain 10 months ago
“This changed nothing …” — yeah, except to provide the possibility of getting health insurance for a few dozen millions of Americans, make it illegal to dump people when they get sick, etc, etc. It changes the entire face of the medical insurance business, starting next year (the stuff that kicked in already is relatively minor), but apparently that doesn’t matter. Even if we restrict ourselves to only the political ramifications of this result, it gives Obama a huge win, creates yet more headaches for Romney, and changes the shape of the playing field (it removes one side, if you will — the recourse through the courts direction is closed for now).
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Contrast Sen. Rand Paul’s anti-Federalist rantings to Arizona senatorial candidate Richard Carmona (a former Bush Administration Surgeon General) on Obamacare:
The Affordable Care Act does contain laudable first steps that help
address health disparities and the access inequities of the current
system but it also has major flaws. Until we have leaders courageous
enough to deal seriously and apolitically with a costly and ineffective
business model, we won’t make the reforms needed to cut costs, encourage
prevention and adopt healthier lifestyles. -
Rachel and Buchanan good friends ?!? cordial at best.
Re: rgbact, Logarchism’s nonsensical court jester, sayin’ Olbermann/O’Donnell are my faves ie putting words in my mouth, I’ll just repeat my accurate pithy comment from yesterday …
rgbact’s deflections are duly noted as it’s also nice some at this site continue to “try” to engage rgbact … my compliments regarding their infinite patience/fortitude.
Apologies to court jesters!
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btw, re: Obama’s/America’s victory today, the lunatic fringe conservative right er extremists, continuing to look and act like lunatic fringe conservative extremists is good news for Obama/Dems regarding Independent voters.
ie Obama continues to act like an adult and flip/flopping fool mittens is still in search of a cohesive/intelligent/logical political message.
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Speaking of Matthews, Tweety mentioned yesterday all of Romney’s policy plans er lack thereof compare favorably w/Nixon’s secret plan to end the Vietnam War, which remains secret to this day lol.
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And speaking of snarky/smarmy, Cleveland used to have a sarcastic news reporter, Joel Rose, who when the Nixon SC decision re: the secret White House tapes was announced said quite eloquently …
Latest score from the SC: Supreme Court 8 ~ Nixon 0.
I digress.
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dc
We’re not gonna sit here and listen to you bad mouth the United States of America! … Gentlemen
The Dems are on double secret probation!
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shiloh —
Yeah, the effect of this Republican BS is mostly going to be to rouse the more rabid part of their base — as if they weren’t already going to vote against President Obama in November. Other than that, it won’t do much. Maybe help re-motivate black voters, who are convinced (not without cause) that this vote is at least partially racist.
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#109 written by shortchain 10 months ago
A local TV political commentator stated, unequivocally, that this would help Romney, because now his position on the ACA, is simpler, just “repeal it”.
Does anyone here think he’s right? My analysis goes like this:
1. The only people who want just a simple “repeal” are the diehard right, which won’t get Romney more than about 32 percent.
2. The independent voters don’t want just “repeal”, which is why, long ago, the song and dance was “repeal and replace”. Simple repeal will actually repel independents.
3. Repeal is popular among a lot of folks, not just on the right. Many on the left were hopeful the SCOTUS would overturn the thing and bring about single-payer as the only alternative, for example. Now that courts are not a viable venue for overturning the package, Romney cannot escape two questions:a) “Why don’t you want the rest of us to get what you got for Massachusetts, governor?” and
b) “What will you replace this bill with?”There are no good answers to either question, as will become obvious shortly. Romney put a brave face on it today, but I wonder if he’ll be smiling come November. I’m guessing he’ll do the best he can, which is to stop talking about healthcare at all. Watch and see.
By the way, aren’t all you folks in Republican states happy with all the money your governors and AG’s wasted?
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shortchain,
I don’t think he’s right, but not for the reasons you outlined.As I said before, a majority of Americans believe that the ACA is bad. Some of them believe so because they don’t like the mandate, which has now been upheld. Some believe so because they are convinced that it authorizes death panels, and they don’t want government bureaucracy deciding when it’s time for them to die. Some believe so because they are convinced that it has raised their insurance rates more than they would have been, absent the Act. And some just don’t like anything that Obama likes. That makes the messaging a little slipperier. It’s hard to overcome a big disinformation campaign.
The only people who want just a simple “repeal” are the diehard right, which won’t get Romney more than about 32 percent.
Not the only people, but there is a significant intersection in the Venn diagram between the “repeal” crowd and those who would have voted Republican anyway (though perhaps are sufficiently unenthused by Romney that he needs to compel them not to stay home).
The independent voters don’t want just “repeal”, which is why, long ago, the song and dance was “repeal and replace”. Simple repeal will actually repel independents.
That’s true for many, but they may believe that “replace” is implicit. And so…
Romney cannot escape two questions:
a) “Why don’t you want the rest of us to get what you got for Massachusetts, governor?” and
b) “What will you replace this bill with?”It will be up to Obama’s crew to push for a more definitive response than “anything but what Obama wants”, which has been Romney’s stance on immigration policy thus far. But that’s where the conversation must go in order to give Obama an advantage over Romney.
I’m guessing he’ll do the best he can, which is to stop talking about healthcare at all. Watch and see.
He will want to focus on the economy, because it’s the one place where his advantage is clearest (though even there he’s having trouble in some states, such as Florida).
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Again, as mentioned before according to exit polls in both 2004⁄2008 presidential elections conservatives comprised 34% of actual voters.
Romney not having a rational/doable alternative plan to replace ACA notwithstanding, mittens is on video tape as a staunch supporter of the personal mandate and did an op-ed a couple years ago supporting the personal mandate for the entire country!
that is all …
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I just keep wondering how long Republicans can keep going with meaningless partisan posturing instead of addressing substantive issues.
For eighteen months, they’ve avoided doing a single thin to create jobs. They’ve even blocked the President’s effort to create jobs, the American Jobs Act.
Today, instead of doing anything to create jobs, they voted in a meaningless petty partisan political stunt to hold Eric Holder in contempt of Congress.
Eric Cantor said that he’s scheduling a vote on July 11 in the House to repeal the Affordable Care Act. Instead of creating jobs. And forgetting that the House already held a vote last year to repeal ACA — instead of doing anything to create jobs.
Republicans know the ACA will never be repealed. They have the votes in the House, yeah, but it’ll die without being mentioned in the Senate. Even if they win the Senate and the Presidency in November, they won’t have 60 votes in the Senate. Of course, they can then cut off funding, but they can’t repeal it.
So this nonsense about “Repeal Obamacare!” is just more meaningless theater. Somehow, Republican voters seem to fall for it. Or else, they pretend to, just because they want to oppose Obama — hard to tell if anyone actually believes it, or if they know it’s nonsense and go along with it anyway.
Meanwhile, Republicans don’t do anything to create jobs.
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#114 written by shortchain 10 months ago
Michael,
Do you have any evidence for a significant number of people outside the diehard right wing holding a belief in “death panels”? Or that the ACA has caused an increase in health insurance rates beyond what they would already have risen?
The mandate I’ll give you. Nobody wants to have to do anything.
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As I said before, a majority of Americans believe that the ACA is bad.
Yes and no. Stating it that way is, I think, overly simplistic, and therefore misleading.
There is a hostile caricature of ACA floating around, a bit of ugly and utterly false propaganda, that was intentionally constructed by Republicans. Lots of low-information Americans believe that non-existent phantasm is bad. These are the people who believe it is “death panels” or “socialized medicine” or “a gubmint takeover.”
There also are a number of more informed people, who would rather have had a single-payer system, or a system that didn’t rely on private insurance companies. Some of those think ACA is an uncomfortable compromise, and there is a continuüm from there to a few who think it is outright bad. How many of these are on the bad extreme, I don’t know.
Less thank 40% of the public wants the ACA completely repealed. roughly 55% want it either left as-is, or repealed only in part (usually the “individual mandate”).
Nearly everyone actually likes most of the things ACA does — guaranteed issue, kinds on parents’ insurance until age 26, no annual or lifetime limits, more equal rates for women and the elderly, etc., etc. Many of the low-information voters are unaware these things are in the ACA, but they love them.
So the reality is a lot more complex than “lots of people think it’s bad”. The challenge for the President is navigating the truth of it. Romney will rely on maintaining the confusion and dishonesty of his party.
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#116 written by Max 10 months ago
Addendum:
When I made the call last night I said that the AZ 1070 decision played a role in y willingness to go out on that limb. The article above mentioned Jeffery Toobin’s argument earlier on why the mandate would be thrown out. Also last night I heard Lawrence Tribe’s argument FOR why the mandate would stand. That argument was the final straw for me.
So, Tribe over Toobin going forward for me!
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shortchain,
Do you have any evidence for a significant number of people outside the diehard right wing holding a belief in “death panels”?
No. Just a sense.
Or that the ACA has caused an increase in health insurance rates beyond what they would already have risen?
It’s merely the increases’ existence at all. Most Americans were under the impression that their rates would drop.
And it appears that the Republican line will be “Obamacare = Tax Increase” and “Tax Increase = Bad”, therefore “Obamacare = Bad”.
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As I said before, a majority of Americans believe that the ACA is bad.
Yes and no. Stating it that way is, I think, overly simplistic, and therefore misleading.
The latest Kaiser poll shows more Americans opposed to it than in favor of it. I believe Gallup shows the same thing, though I don’t have the link to that one.
There is a hostile caricature of ACA floating around, a bit of ugly and utterly false propaganda, that was intentionally constructed by Republicans. Lots of low-information Americans believe that non-existent phantasm is bad.
In other words…“a majority of Americans believe that the ACA is bad.”
So the reality is a lot more complex than “lots of people think it’s bad”. The challenge for the President is navigating the truth of it.
Uh huh…didn’t I mention something toward the end of the above article about what happens in such situations?
You can go around and around with the “wouldn’t it be great if all voters were well-informed” ideal, but eventually you have to wake up and see what happens in the real world.
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In other words…“a majority of Americans believe that the ACA is bad.”
But does “bad” mean “get rid of it”? or “over the next few years, let’s continue to improve it”?
Does it mean “vote against Obama”? or “make damn sure Obama gets reëlected, so we don’t lose the great parts of it I like”?
eventually you have to wake up and see what happens in the real world.
Yes, and in the Real World (tm), Republicans have been blatantly lying about it, and creating a boogeyman image that doesn’t exist.
We make the world better by admitting that fact, and dealing with the lies, not by sighing and saying “people don’t like it.”
We deal with the Real World by recognizing that a lot of people who don’t like it are upset because it doesn’t go far enough, not because they want to go back to what we had — and letting Romney get ahead on this is very bad.
We deal with the Real World by pointing out that the alternative to ACA — instead of preventing insurance companies from dropping you when you need them, or raising their rates whenever they want — the Republican alternative is to dismantle Medicare in favor of drug-store coupons.
The Real World is a lot more complex than “a lot of people don’t like it,” and dealing with the Real World means taking advantage of that complexity.
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Re: well-informed, turdblossom et al have an expensive ad buy in Ohio the past 3⁄4 weeks running Obama’s the private sector is doing fine on an endless loop ad nauseam, much like fixednoise ran Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright’s god damn America! continuously lol. Anyhoo, it doesn’t seem to be doing mittens much good as regards to polls.
Remember how mittens barely won Ohio 38⁄37 vs. (2) train wrecks Santo/Newt even though he outspent his opposition exponentially ie even cons don’t like mittens much in Ohio.
Nothing kills a bad product faster than good advertising …
carry on
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DC,
But does “bad” mean “get rid of it”? or “over the next few years, let’s continue to improve it”?
Depends on who you ask.
Does it mean “vote against Obama”? or “make damn sure Obama gets reëlected, so we don’t lose the great parts of it I like”?
Depends on who you ask.
in the Real World (tm), Republicans have been blatantly lying about it, and creating a boogeyman image that doesn’t exist.
And they do this because it works.
dealing with the Real World means taking advantage of that complexity.
Complexity doesn’t work with most voters…and this is why Republicans have been so much better at getting their messaging to stick.
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#123 written by Max 10 months ago
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Michael,
Depends on who you ask.
Yes. That’s my point. And that’s the reason why saying “people don’t like it” is overly simplistic. I think we’re actually agreeing on this.
I pointed out Republicans have been lying…
And they do this because it works.
Yes. And part of why its been working is that Democrats haven’t been effectively responding. Call a lie a lie. Tell the truth instead. We need a massive advertizing effort. That’s how Romney sold Romneycare in Massachusetts. They spent a full year after the bill passed blanketing the airwaves with simple, straightforward ads telling how and why the new health care reform would work. Democrats need to do that NOW with the ACA, instead of letting Republicans keep telling answered lies.
Complexity doesn’t work with most voters…and this is why Republicans
have been so much better at getting their messaging to stick.Right. Which is why the Democratic message needs to be simple:
* Republicans want to keep insurance execs between you and your doctor.
* The Romney/Ryan scheme will kill Medicare.
* Romney wants insurance companies to control whether you have health care.
* Romney wants seniors to pay more for prescription drugs.
* Romney will deny you health care when you get sick.
* Romney will deny health care to your kid
* Romney wants to raise your rates.
* Repealing Obamacare will add $1 trillion to the national debt.… and so on. Each one is a simple 15-second commercial. Message: Romney wants his corporate buddies to control your health.
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And by the way, on the idea that American voters are too stupid to handle complexity … if that was true, then Obama would not be President.
Remember Reverend Wright? The simple ad was him standing behind a podium screaming, “God damn America!” It played on news channels and the Internet 24–7 for weeks. The story rapidly developed that Obama’s minister hated America — therefore, so does Obama.
How did he handle it? By throwing up his hands and saying, “There’s no way to deal with simple lies!”?
No, he gave a powerful and nuanced and complex speech. He started a conversation on the meaning of being Black in America. He faced the complexity head-on, and talked to Americans as if we are adults.
And it worked.
There’s stupid. And then there is respecting the intelligence of America. Many voters find that refreshing — enough to combat what could have been the most devastating political attack we’ve seen in decades.
We need to treat America like adults.
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DC,
Right. Which is why the Democratic message needs to be simple:
Sure, I agree with that.
Republicans want to keep insurance execs between you and your doctor.
Romney wants insurance companies to control whether you have health care.
Romney will deny you health care when you get sick.
Romney will deny health care to your kidThe thing you need to understand is that the vast majority of Americans didn’t see these things happening before the ACA was passed. When they do happen to people, it’s really awful, but it’s easy for people to believe “it happens to someone else”.
The Romney/Ryan scheme will kill Medicare.
Yes, that’s one of the few messages that would probably play well. And it has thus far.
Romney wants seniors to pay more for prescription drugs.
That might play well, except that the with/without ACA story is pretty complicated there. Both sides could claim that the other wants seniors to pay more for prescription drugs.
Romney wants to raise your rates.
This one won’t play. Rates went up after the ACA was passed. What makes you think people concluded that the rates went up in spite rather than because of the ACA?
Repealing Obamacare will add $1 trillion to the national debt.
This one also won’t play. The story behind it is too complicated, and allows for both sides to claim that the other side will increase the debt.
Message: Romney wants his corporate buddies to control your health.
Like I said above, this one’s a loser…even if it’s true.
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DC,
And by the way, on the idea that American voters are too stupid to handle complexity … if that was true, then Obama would not be President.
Not so. He’s eloquent, charismatic, and youthful. Sort of a modern, black JFK. His opponent was, in comparison, awkward, tired, and old (part of the reason behind Palin)…and easy to tie to Bush, who was easy to blame for the meltdown. Nuance wasn’t necessary.
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MW
That awkward, tired, and old person defeated flip/flopping mittens quite easily in 2008. Solo estoy diciendo.
The pundits keep trying to compare this year to 1980⁄1992. hmm, except Dutch and Clinton had/have personalities, were believable, could speak in coherent sentences and didn’t totally avoid the press.
I’m not familiar with precisely what I said, but I stand by what I said, whatever it was, notwithstanding.
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One must remember that Reagan came extremely close to defeating an incumbent president in 1976. One suspects Obama’s campaign has enough negative info on mittens that he’ll be pleading
for retractions 24⁄7. -
The thing you need to understand is that the vast majority of Americans didn’t see these things happening before the ACA was passed. When they do happen to people, it’s really awful, but it’s easy for people to believe “it happens to someone else”.
Doesn’t matter. There’s no evidence of vote fraud either. Or of gubmint officials between you and your doctor. Or of “death panels.” But in this case, lots of people know someone who has been screwed by the insurance companies.
That might play well, except that the with/without ACA story is pretty complicated there.
No it isn’t. That’s the point. Seniors have the benefit of lower drug prices NOW. Romney wants to take that away. Simple.
This one won’t play. Rates went up after the ACA was passed. What makes you think people concluded that the rates went up in spite rather than because of the ACA?
Advertising. Why does anyone think rates went up because of ACA in the first place? Advertising. Tell the truth for a change. Without ACA, rates will go up. A lot. Immediately. Uncontrolled. Romney wants that to happen.
This one also won’t play.
You seem to think that simplistic messages need to explain themselves. They don’t. No one explained what “socialism” means or why they tried to stick that label on ACA. They just repeated it, over and over and over. It’s time to repeat over and over that the Romney/Ryan plan will increase the deficit. It will cost us more. It is bad for America.
Message: Romney wants his corporate buddies to control your health.
Like I said above, this one’s a loser…even if it’s true
Like I said above … no it’s not. It’s precisely what has worked for the liars. No reason it can’t work when it’s true. Repetition is the key. Repetition creates memory patterns and thought patterns. Romney wants corporations to control your health care. Romney wants corporations to control your health care. Romney wants corporations to control your health care.
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Not so. He’s eloquent, charismatic, and youthful. Sort of a modern,
black JFK. His opponent was, in comparison, awkward, tired, and old
(part of the reason behind Palin)…and easy to tie to Bush, who was
easy to blame for the meltdown. Nuance wasn’t necessary.Interesting interpretation. I’ll stick with mine. Because Obama wasn’t running against McCain yet when the Wright story broke. That was during the primaries, and he was still running against Hillary.
So, public opinion about ACA can’t be saved (in your view) with a barrage of simple messages, nor can it be saved with telling people the details and the truth. Is it your view that ACA (at least, public perception of it) is doomed, and that it will always be toxic to anyone who supports it in public?
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Just to add in fairness lol Ford wasn’t your typical incumbent, being appointed v-p and president after Agnew/Nixon both resigned in disgrace!
Bottom line, there’s absolutely nothing Romney can do to increase his likability short of handing out $100 to every voter. And one of Obama’s several themes will be why mittens didn’t run for re-election as his job approval rating in MA was 35% and had no chance for re-election after MA voters got to know him for (4) years.
Again, why did Kerry lose Ohio against a war-time incumbent president, other than the fact he was a god awful candidate/campaigner? The gay marriage hate referendum turdblossom put on the ballot in (8) states and disenfranchisement by Ken Blackwell, Ohio’s Sec. of State. Although Republican disenfranchisement may still be in play a tad, the gay marriage issue is moot, but the Obama saving the auto industry theme and crushing defeat of kasich’s anti-union referendum are still fresh memories in Ohio.
Did I mention Romney is just not likable ie the antithesis of Dutch/Clinton … and Obama.
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Good points, shiloh. When Obama easily wins reëlection (by “easily”< I mean in electoral vote count), the pundits will wonder whether it was “in spite of” ACA, and will be terribly confused because “lots of people think it’s bad.” Opinion on ACA is being used as proxy for opinion on Obama, and it’s just not a good proxy, for all the reasons we’ve discussed.
As for the power of advertizing — throughout the 2008 campaign, nearly everyone favored one form or another or health care reform. It was a Big Deal in both the Republican and Democratic primaries. Obama and McCain had competing plans in the general campaign. The eventual form of the ACA was actually very close to McCain’s plan.
And yet, Republican voters were made to forget all that, and oppose the ACA because it is a “socialite gubmint takeover of my Medicare!”
How did this happen? Unrelenting advertising, a lot of it masked as “news” reports on the FOX Propaganda Channel. Corporate sponsorship of Teaper Astroturf Theater. A drumbeat repetition of paranoid soundbites.
It’s true that fear motivates people more easily than does hope. It’s also true that Democrats are reluctant to go there. But the situation now is that Romney wants to take away benefits people already are getting (or have the right to) under ACA. Democrats need to drum that into the national consciousness.
Under Romney/Ryan, your health care will cost you more and give you less. You can be dropped any time for any reason — especially for getting sick or injured. It will raise the deficit by a trillion dollars over the next ten years. Soulless corporations will control your health care decisions.
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#133 written by rgbact 10 months ago
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DC,
Doesn’t matter. There’s no evidence of vote fraud either. Or of gubmint officials between you and your doctor. Or of “death panels.” But in this case, lots of people know someone who has been screwed by the insurance companies.
It matters a great deal. To many Republicans, the evidence of vote fraud is that they lose some elections. With respect to government officials between people and their doctors, and “death panels”, those are used to illustrate the possibilities if we change. In that case, the fear of change only works if most people are satisfied with the current system. And, while “lots of people know someone who has been screwed by the insurance companies”, it’s not yet enough of them to garner the level of support necessary.
Seniors have the benefit of lower drug prices NOW.
Do they? Those on Part D aren’t seeing an appreciable difference between their costs now and their costs three years ago.
Why does anyone think rates went up because of ACA in the first place? Advertising. Tell the truth for a change. Without ACA, rates will go up. A lot. Immediately. Uncontrolled.
I just don’t see that argument as being credible. At best, you could claim that rates will go up at the same pace that they did before, because that’s what the visceral evidence shows.
You seem to think that simplistic messages need to explain themselves.
Nope. They need to be viscerally credible. You do that by attaching it to something that the recipient already “knows” (even if what they already “know” is false). Telling a falsehood and repeating it over and over again isn’t enough by itself, something I’m afraid you have yet to recognize.
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#137 written by shortchain 10 months ago
DC,
I agree with Michael. It’s not enough to simply repeat a lie, over and over. You have to do one of three things:
1. Make it something the hearers want to believe. (“We can reduce healthcare expenses through the invisible hand of the market without any cost to you!”)
2. Play on the fears of the hearers. (“Welfare cheats are using the money you pay in taxes to live a life of ease!”)
3. Get everybody to say it, so that it just gets embedded in the human consciousness. (“Social Security is a Ponzi scheme!”) (I expect a resurgence of the attempt to legitimize “tax is theft!” again.)If you can’t use one of these methods, I really don’t think you’ll get your lie believed.
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Michael,
Do they? Those on Part D aren’t seeing an appreciable difference between their costs now and their costs three years ago.
They saved $400 to $600 just in the last year.
shortchain,
You are correct about getting lies believed. In your opinion, is it easier or more difficult to get the truth believed? Or are the requirements the same?
Open question:
If short, repeated memes won’t work, and neither will laying out the truth in detail, is the ACA destined to remain toxic forever? Do we throw up our hands at the destructive propaganda campaign against it and say, “Oh well, Republicans won. Again. *sigh* On to the next issue we can lose because we won’t fight.”?
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By the way, shortchain, the methods you suggest — 1) play on wants, 2) play on fears, 3) get everyone saying it — were exactly the sorts of things I was suggesting. From what I understand of Michael’s responses, I think he’s saying (you can correct me if I’m wrong) that neither the 1) hopes nor the 2) fears are (in his opinion) visceral enough, and 3) no one will repeat anything other than Republican talking points.
I think we’re getting to the point of saying “I think it’ll work”, “I think it won’t”, and none of us have empirical data because it hasn’t been tried. We’ll talk again in mid-November.
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#140 written by shortchain 10 months ago
DC,
Oh, I think we’ll know well before November. The shape of the campaign will become obvious about the time of the GOP convention. I expected the bump in the polls for Obama after the ruling, since it came back positive for Obama. Now we’ll see how long that lasts — but Romney is behind the 8-ball, in my opinion. -
Summing up: Dems are too nice and Reps are relentless w/their misinformation.
Cons always utter … How’s that hope and change thing working out for ‘ya!
After Obama buries mittens by relentlessly speaking the truth about charlatan/discombobulated Romney in the presidential campaign, “we” can say it’s working out pretty good actually, ie finally a Dem who’s driven to destroy the opposition as well.
And again the irony that it took a bi-racial African/American for the Dems to find someone w/a backbone and killer instinct! bin Laden can attest in the hereafter.
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Rhetorical question for cons: Did you really think Obama was never gonna use the truthful info about mittens’ record ie Bain/Massachusetts governor, etc. to totally annihilate his opponent?
And the fact that he can do all this and still be likable lol is damn impressive. mittens’ puppeteers feverishly working behind the scenes trying to make lemonade out of a lemon, notwithstanding.
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#142 written by GROG 10 months ago
Micheal,
“As I said before, a majority of Americans believe that the ACA is bad. Some of them believe so because they don’t like the mandate, which has now been upheld. Some believe so because they are convinced that it authorizes death panels, and they don’t want government bureaucracy deciding when it’s time for them to die. Some believe so because they are convinced that it has raised their insurance rates more than they would have been, absent the Act. And some just don’t like anything that Obama likes. That makes the messaging a little slipperier.”
What about the reasons you didn’t list? What about the poeple who think it’s bad because it does nothing to address rising health care costs? What about the people who think it’s bad because of the main intent of the act, which is get as many people off employer based insurance plans and get them onto government exchange plans? What about the people who see this as what it is, an effort to end private health insurance as we know it and fulfill Obama’s pledge to enact a universal single payer system? What about the people who see this as an assault on indiviual freedom? What about the people who see it as an assault on free enterprise?
It’s easy and simpleminded to simply conclude “some people are against it because they don’t like anything Obama likes”. Of course “some” feel that way but “some” liberals were against things for the mere reason Bush was for it, too. Let’s stop with that nonsense. It’s not worthy of this discussion unless you have figures to back that claim up.
I also find it interesting that the court ruled that the individual mandate is not valid under the commerce clause. I’ve been hearing for 2 years from the left, including just about everyone on this site, that the mandate is constitutional under the commerce clause. As I and others have argued, the mandate is not constitutional under the commerce clause.
The law had to be rewritten making it a “tax”, even though Obama and the left have argued since it’s inception that the mandate was not a tax.
So my question is, were they lying? Have they been intentionally misleading the people from the beginning? Or are they just plain stupid?
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What about the poeple who think it’s bad because it does nothing to
address rising health care costs? What about the people who think
it’s bad because of the main intent of the act, which is get as many
people off employer based insurance plans and get them onto
government exchange plans? What about the people who see this as
what it is, an effort to end private health insurance as we know
it and fulfill Obama’s pledge to enact a universal single payer
system? What about the people who see this as an assault on
indiviual freedom? What about the people who see it as an assault on
free enterprise?These are covered under the category of “people who believe in death panels,” or “people who think zombies are out to get them.”
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Of course “some” feel that way but “some” liberals were against things
for the mere reason Bush was for it, too. Let’s stop with that
nonsense.Yes, let’s. You can’t name a single person who was “against things for the mere reason Bush was for it”. We can name Mitch McConnell who stated that making President Obama a one-term president was the primary Republican goal. We can point to any number of Republican politicians who supported various programs (Romney and the individual mandate, for example — in fact, the Heritage Foundation and the individual mandate) until Obama offered to do it their way, then decided to oppose them.
It’s not worthy of this discussion unless you have
figures to back that claim up.Do you have figures to back up your end of this? We can point to dozens of elected Republicans, so it clearly is a credible possibility on our side. The Obama Derangement Syndrome is a definite reality. Please don’t create another one of these false equivalences in an effort to deny reality.
The law had to be rewritten making it a “tax”, even though Obama and
the left have argued since it’s inception that the mandate was not
a tax.No. The law was not “rewritten.” It still is exactly as it was when it was enacted two years ago.
It is not a “tax”. The penalty for not purchasing insurance is constitutional because of Congress’ taxing authority. It’s a subtle difference, perhaps, but it’s real, and Republicans are intentionally smudging it.
In the same way, a “user fee” is not a “tax”, even though Congress can levy “user fees” under its taxing authority. Republicans raise “user fees” all the time, and then insist they haven’t raised “taxes”. I’ll see you as consistent when you start complaining about that, too. (You’d still be wrong, but at least you’d be consistent.)
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#145 written by shortchain 10 months ago
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Gallup poll ~ 46% favor SC decision/46% oppose.
hmm, what a difference a day makes!
“Gallup also polled people on what ought to happen next — now that the court has found it constitutional, where should the law go from here? The responses were somewhat polarized, with the majority of respondents split between upholding the law, expanding it, and getting rid of it all together. Twenty-five percent of adults said that they would like Congress to “keep the law in place and pass further legislation to expand the government’s role in healthcare beyond what the law currently does,” while 31 percent responded that they would like Congress to “repeal the law entirely.”
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So if mittens wants to campaign against ACA and for total repeal, he will be preaching to the (((31%))) choir. Again, this must be turdblossom’s 2006 math lol. Go for it Willard!
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Re: the why’s and wherefore’s of Robert’s decision, going out of his way to save ACA ie his legacy, doing the right thing, the common good, etc. Maybe he just doesn’t like Romney and sees him as the charlatan/shyster he truly is and doesn’t want him to become C-in-C. Or not.
Just a thought.
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#147 written by dawolf 10 months ago
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GROG,
My point was not to outline an exhaustive list of reasons why people dislike the ACA.I also find it interesting that the court ruled that the individual mandate is not valid under the commerce clause. I’ve been hearing for 2 years from the left, including just about everyone on this site, that the mandate is constitutional under the commerce clause. As I and others have argued, the mandate is not constitutional under the commerce clause.
It certainly wasn’t a slam-dunk on either side, which is why it was a 5–4 decision. Nonetheless, the Court has spoken, and it is henceforth not supported by the Commerce Clause.
The law had to be rewritten making it a “tax”, even though Obama and the left have argued since it’s inception that the mandate was not a tax.
Not rewritten. The judicial branch is not authorized to write laws. It has been interpreted by the court to be within Congress’s taxing authority. As you may recall, that was my interpretation for pretty much the entire time, though I wasn’t sure the Supreme Court would agree, given the design as a penalty.
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#149 written by Max 10 months ago
“single payer system” used as a dirty word.
Bullshit.
Other than the ideological, please give rational reasons AGAINST the single payer system. Give us some “Cons”. Cause the “Pros” sure seem to beat the current fuck-up we have now!
Cost: EVERY country with a single payer system has lower per capita health care costs.
Efficacy: Almost every country with a single payer system is rated with BETTER health care results. Life expectancy, infant mortality. And on and on.Now if lower costs and better results are not a damned sight better than ideology, something is pure T wrong with the logic!
So please, give me some rational reasons.
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#151 written by GROG 10 months ago
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#152 written by Max 10 months ago
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#153 written by GROG 10 months ago
Michael,
“Not rewritten. The judicial branch is not authorized to write laws.”
Yes, I know. I was being a bit facetious. My point is that Congress and the President has said all along that “It is not a tax!! It is not a tax!!”. SCOTUS said “Yes, it is a tax!!. And that, not the commerce clause which the left has been crowing about for 2 years, is what allowed it to survive. -
#154 written by GROG 10 months ago
Max,
I would refer you to this Canadian study regarding waiting lists for cardiac catheterization .
http://www.cmaj.ca/content/167/11/1233.fullOr this article on waiting lists in the UK.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10942328Or this piece by Canada’s Frasier Institute.
a profusion of research reveals that cardiovascular surgery queues are routinely jumped by the famous and politically-connected, that suburban and rural residents confront barriers to access not encountered by their urban counterparts, and that low-income Canadians have less access to specialists, particularly cardiovascular ones, are less likely to utilize diagnostic imaging, and have lower cardiovascular and cancer survival rates than their higher-income neighbours.
http://www.fraserinstitute.com/Or this study:
Our results suggest, for the first time, that the more conservative pattern of care with regard to early revascularization in Canada for ST-segment elevation acute myocardial infarction may have a detrimental effect on long-term survival. Our results have important policy implications for cardiac care in countries and healthcare systems wherein use of invasive procedures is similarly conservative. http://www.circ.ahajournals.org/content/110/13/1754.abstract
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GROG,
SCOTUS said “Yes, it is a tax!
Not exactly. Per Justice Roberts:
It is of course true that the Act describes the payment as a “penalty,” not a “tax.” … That choice does not, however, control whether an exaction is within Congress’s constitutional power to tax. … In the License Tax Cases, for example, we held that federal licenses to sell liquor and lottery tickets—for which the licensee had to pay a fee—could be sustained as exercises of the taxing power.
In other words, it’s a tax in the same way that licensing fees or national park entry fees are taxes.
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#156 written by GROG 10 months ago
“instead of preventing insurance companies from dropping you when you need them”
This type of misinformation from the left, that insurance companies can just drop you when you get sick, is dangerous theater. Insurance companies cannot legally drop someone when they get sick, unless their policy says “we can drop you when you get sick”. Nor can they reject you for a pre-esisting condition, unless you’ve had a lapse in coverage. ACA allows you to not have coverage, pay a “tax”, and then sign up for insurance when you get sick.
When you make up things like “insurance companies can drop you when you get sick”, low information people may actually believe it.
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GROG,
a profusion of research reveals that cardiovascular surgery queues are routinely jumped by the famous and politically-connected, that suburban and rural residents confront barriers to access not encountered by their urban counterparts, and that low-income Canadians have less access to specialists, particularly cardiovascular ones, are less likely to utilize diagnostic imaging, and have lower cardiovascular and cancer survival rates than their higher-income neighbours.
Drop the “u” in “neighbours”, replace “queues” with “waiting lists” or “lines”, and change Canadians to Americans, and you’d find the sentence is still true. So it merely says that a change to the Canadian model won’t affect that aspect of healthcare.
Believe it or not, there are an awful lot of people in the US who also have to wait for care. I know, because I know some of them.
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#158 written by Max 10 months ago
GROG,
OK
Now, how does overall health of Canadians compare with US citizens in such areas as life expectancy, infant mortality, etc??? Let us know using the CIA Fact Sheet for the most recent year, or other substantive source. Because I am not claiming that there are not ANY areas where a given country is worse than the US, just overall.
What is the average per capita cost for health care in Canada versus the US? -
Again grog, as mentioned to rgbact, mittens/Ryan do not have an alternative health care plan, so yes, one shouldn’t say what imaginary criteria/implementation/specification exists in said non-existent plan.
One thing ACA does eliminate is/are HMO personnel who used to determine who was eligible to receive life saving operations, others may call that medical position god!
hmm, HMO death panels …
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GROG,
Tell the AARP, that evil socialist organization. See p. 6.
http://assets.aarp.org/www.aarp.org/articles/health/207993_hcr_ed_booklet_6-8–10.pdfIn reality, the insurance company finds a technical error in your application, so they’re not dropping you when you get sick — they’re finding an error in your application so they can drop you when you get sick.
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GROG,
Our results suggest, for the first time, that the more conservative pattern of care with regard to early revascularization in Canada for ST-segment elevation acute myocardial infarction
The article you cite refers to a very small number of people with a specific type of heart attack. I’m not sure it has broad applicability.
You say,
When you make up things like “insurance companies can drop you when
you get sick”, low information people may actually believe it.This from Rep. Michael Burgess MD (R-Denton, Texas) says that it happens:
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jun/17/business/fi-rescind17
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GROG,
This type of misinformation from the left, that insurance companies can just drop you when you get sick, is dangerous theater. Insurance companies cannot legally drop someone when they get sick, unless their policy says “we can drop you when you get sick”.
No, the way it works is that insurance companies look at those who are seriously ill, and then attempt to find some instance of “fraud” in the insurance application, in order to find a technicality upon which they can deny the coverage.
Nor can they reject you for a pre-esisting condition, unless you’ve had a lapse in coverage.
They could, however, refuse to cover anything that they deem to have been preexisting. Even if you didn’t have a lapse in coverage.
ACA allows you to not have coverage, pay a “tax”, and then sign up for insurance when you get sick.
Yes, it does. Well, it allows you to not have coverage, pay a fine, and then sign up for insurance when you get sick. Not what I’d consider to be an optimal arrangement, that’s for sure.
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Grog, Michael pointed out:
They could, however, refuse to cover anything that they deem to have
been preexisting. Even if you didn’t have a lapse in coverage.They also could (before the ACA) agree to take you, but only if you pay an outrageous amount of money for premiums that you cannot possibly afford — which is the same as refusing to cover you.
And as for cancelling you when you get sick or injured — insurance companies used to (before the ACA) have departments whose job it was to find the sorts of excuses Michael mentions to deny coverage. They would even give bonuses to the people who work there for finding the most ways to deny coverage. In essence, they had “death panels” whose purpose was to find ways to let you die instead of receiving benefits. ACA makes the practice illegal. Repeal ACA, and we see the return of death panels.
As far as ACA allowing you to pay a fine rather than have insurance coverage — those fines are used to pay the costs of people without insurance who show up at emergency rooms and receive care. Currently the care is paid for by those of us who have insurance, in the form of higher premiums. ACA makes the people without insurance pay for it themselves, which seems like a perfectly conservative and Republican thing to do, don’t you agree? Demanding that they take personal responsibility?
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#166 written by mclever 10 months ago
@GROG
Regarding getting dropped by insurance companies when you get sick, prior to PPACA it can and did happen. Often. I know, because it happened to me. I got a nice letter from BCBS saying that they were “restructuring their plans” and I’d need to reapply. Considering that I’d never gone a day in my life without coverage, I thought nothing of it until they rejected my reapplication. And then 20 other applications were rejected by their competition because of my “pre-existing condition(s)”. I’ve mentioned this on this blog before, several times, because the shocking thing is that my pre-existing conditions are things like infrequent migraines and a sprained ankle.
When I called my doctor to cancel my annual checkup appointment due to being dropped, she was surprised. When I told her I couldn’t get new coverage because of alleged pre-existing conditions, she was doubly surprised. She said, “Why not? You’re healthy!”
So, when a healthy (as per my doctor) person like me could get dropped and then have such difficulty getting replacement coverage despite never having a lapse in coverage, I can only imagine what it was like for people who actually had serious medical conditions with huge costs associated. Oh wait, I don’t have to imagine, because I saw what my aunt has gone through, too. The same as me, only add on bankruptcy due to medical costs that her expensive insurance refused to cover because they deemed her current problems to all be associated with a pre-existing condition. Then, they found an excuse to terminate her policy based on a flaw in her application paperwork.
So, it may have been “illegal” to drop someone when they get sick, but trust me when I say that the insurance companies found plenty of ways to get around that.
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On the topic of whether the fine associated with not buying insurance is a “tax” –
Personally, I don’t care what it’s called. I’m not afraid of the word “tax”. Republicans have been spreading this idea, since Reagan, that Americans don’t have to actually pay for anything, and that Taxes Iz Evul. I don’t buy it, and I don’t think any thinking person should. It’s a truly, monumentally stupid idea. If we have to call something other than a “tax” in order to pay for it, I’m all for that.
The question comes down to this: is the payment levied in a reasonable fashion, at a reasonable rate, and targeted to a reasonable group of payers? In the case of charging the people who refuse to get insurance a token amount to pay for their own emergency care, yes, I think that’s entirely reasonable. Especially when the payment is on a sliding scale based upon their ability to pay.
Republicans are pretending to be all aghast that SCOTUS said this fine is a “tax” (which SCOTUS actually didn’t say — SCOTUS said it is allowed under the taxing authority of Congress, which is altogether different, but put that aside. Republicans are mounting this silly faux outrage at being taxed to promote the sort of personal responsibility they insist we should all have, and to fulfill the design that the freaking Heritage Foundation created. I don’t buy this unconvincing act of pretended outrage and heart-attack level shock at being “taxed” (especially because only something like 2% of Americans are going to be subject to the fine). I have no patience for that sort of silliness.
As a nation, we’ve decided not to let people die when they show up at the emergency room without insurance. You tell me a better way to pay for it, and maybe we’ll do that.
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#168 written by mclever 10 months ago
@DC
I agree with what you’re saying on the topic of whether the fine associated with not buying insurance is a “tax.” However, I think you err when you assume that the average American is a “thinking person.” That may be a bit harsh. I actually think most Americans are just thinking about other things and won’t be bothered to learn more beyond the talking points on a topic like this, because they’ve got much more important things to worry about rather than the semantics of whether a fine or a fee is a tax or not.
And the “taxez iz bad” meme works, because nobody likes having money taken from their paycheck.
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I take your points, mclever.
Yes, the “taxes iz bad” works because people like getting things for free. But they need to grow up, and stop maxing out their credit cards. (I’ve been there, so it’s not like I pretend to have always been all-wise either. Maybe we have to learn it the hard way. I just wish America didn’t have to do that as a nation.) Yes, I’m in a harsh mood tonight. I apologize for that, except that I don’t, because I’m in a harsh mood.
By the way, totally unrelated, anyone who has HBO should watch “The Newsroom”. It’s incredibly good.
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In other words, it’s a tax in the same way that licensing fees or national park entry fees are taxes.
… and Republicans have, for years, been insisting these are not taxes. Our own Governor Tim “Skippy the Wondergov” Pawlenty raised all sorts of fees, including the cigarette tax, and got away with claiming that he never once raised taxes.
For Republicans to complain about the fine for not paying your own medical costs — and I don’t care what you call it, a tax, a penalty, a fee, an amusement-park ticket to ride the hospital beds — for Republicans to gripe about this being a “tax” is the height of hypocrisy. And for them to complain about it now, after two years, is nothing more than sour grapes at once more losing.
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#171 written by rgbact 10 months ago
This type of misinformation from the left, that insurance
companies can just drop you when you get sick, is dangerous
theater. Insurance companies cannot legally drop someone when
they get sickIts part of the reason Obamacare remains unpopular–people know when they’re being lied to. The other reason is while these anecdotes are nice–many people get coverage from A) Medicare B) Medicaid C) Their employer—so all these horror stories aren’t so relevant to their lives and they are more concerned about other issues.
insurance companies used to (before the ACA) have departments whose
job it was to find the sorts of excuses Michael mentions to deny
coverage.Unless you actually worked in the underwriting department of an insurance company, its a safe bet, you don’t have a clue of what actually goes on and are just repeating stuff from lefty blogs.
So, it may have been “illegal” to drop someone when they get sick, but
trust me when I say that the insurance companies found plenty of
ways to get around that.
And you think they still won’t? -
#172 written by Max 10 months ago
In #144 and #155, dc and Michael point out the issue of why the mandate is not a tax.
In the opening sentences of his opinion Roberts concurs, that the mandate is NOT A TAX, because it is defined as a penalty under the law and thus it does not violate the Anti-Injunction Law. IOW, if it WERE a tax, under that Law, it could NOT BE REVIEWED until AFTER it were implemented.
He then goes on, in concurrence with other justices, that the Congress did NOT have the power to levy the penalty under the Commerce or Necessary and Proper clauses, BUT DID under it’s taxing power. Note that the Constitution allows that Congress has multiple ways to “raise revenue” (7.1) OTHER than taxes, specifically: “duties, imposts and excises” (8.1).
Another example of a penalty under the taxing authority that every self-employed person and most investors earning income, know and well understand:
When I earn money not covered under a W-4 through an employer, during the year I must file quarterly returns, with estimated taxes, and pay those taxes at that time. I can chose NOT TO FILE those quarterly returns, not paying the estimated taxes. (parallel: choose NOT to buy H/C insurance). April 15th comes around next year and I file my taxes. I will pay a penalty for underpayment of taxes for not filing and paying quarterly.
That penalty is NOT a TAX, but it is defined as a penalty under the law, and is collected by the IRS. (parallel: As is the penalty for not buying H/C insurance)
Understand? It’s really very simple.
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Again, rgbact’s deflections are duly noted and bottom line …
rgbact’s beloved conservative party ie mittens/ryan, still do not have an alternate logical/fair/comprehensive/doable health care plan.
As they still try to pick apart Obama/Dem’s health care plan ad nauseam.
Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way !!! ~ Thomas Paine
The hilarity/irony of Obama’s plan being almost identical to Dem’s legislation in MA when mittens just happened to be governor …
Oops! much like Jindal sayin’ ObomneyCare.
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rgbact said:
Unless you actually worked in the underwriting department of an
insurance company, its a safe bet, you don’t have a clue of what
actually goes on and are just repeating stuff from lefty blogs.Here’s the link in my comment #161 for your information. You must’ve missed it.
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jun/17/business/fi-rescind17
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This faux-flap about “tax” is nonsense. Republicans are being dishonest and disingenuous. Here’s why. Let’s pretend Republicans are right, and SCOTUS really did reclassify the penalty for not buying insurance as a “tax”. We’ll give them that. So what?
When I was growing up, we were taught in school that there are nine planets: Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune,and Pluto. In August of 2006, the International Astronomical Union (IAU, the international body that names things in space) got together and decided to reclassify Pluto. It is no longer considered a planet. (Basically, it’s too small, and it is one of an enormous number of similar bodies called Kuiper Belt Objects, much like icy asteroids.)
Were my teachers lying to me when I was in school? All those years, when they said Pluto is a planet, were those “lies”?
Did Pluto suddenly change? Did it shrink or move to a different orbit or something?
The answer to all that is No. The solar system in general, and Pluto in particular, were exactly the same before the reclassification as they were after. What changed was a name.
Other than a minor provision dealing with Medicare, the ACA is exactly the same today as it was last Wednesday. Republicans are trying to convince America that there is some mysterious “tax” that is going to be assessed on All Americans, and that somehow, someone was “lying” about it for the last two years.
Bullshit. Nothing changed. Republicans are simply scared to freaking death by the word “tax”, which is why no one used it two years ago. Didn’t want them to get the vapours and faint.
There is a fine that a tiny percentage of deadbeats are going to have to pay, freeloaders who can afford insurance but don’t want to buy it because they want the rest of us to pay for their medical care when they get sick.
Republicans are trying to make it look the other way around — that suddenly SCOTUS discovered this hidden “tax” that is going to be assessed on everyone to pay for someone else’s healthcare. That’s exactly freaking backwards.
It’s important to not let Republicans get away with yet another layer of lies about the ACA.
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Here is how you handle the Republicans on health care.
Harry Truman. “I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it’s hell.”
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Michael,
Are you saying that Floridians should not be putting pressure on Scott to do what ACA says he should do? Are you saying they should meekly and quietly sit by and let him destroy health care in the state, refuse to coöperate with ACA, and turn down hundreds of millions in federal funds? Should the citizens of Florida do nothing about it until he comes up for re-election?
More, are you saying it is proper for the citizens of Florida to not answer the lies about ACA coming out of the mouth of their Governor?
Personally, I think it’s entirely proper for the citizens of Florida to pressure Scott to do what’s right, and to call him on his lies.
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DC,
Are you saying that Floridians should not be putting pressure on Scott to do what ACA says he should do?
Nope. But the pressure they put on him amounts to “we’ll throw you out in two years”. And if it’s not important enough to enough Floridians, then they will end up with the government they deserve.
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Nope. But the pressure they put on him amounts to “we’ll throw you out
in two years”.And, possibly, “We’ll elect a state and federal legislature hostile to you in November.” And definitely, “We’ll combat your lies so perhaps fewer people will be taken in by them now and in the future.”
But I do take your point that if Scott wants to act as a petty dictator who will impoverish and kill (through malicious neglect) his own peasants just because he can, there may be little his victims can do about it.
And if it’s not important enough to enough Floridians,
then they will end up with the government they deserve.Again, true. The purpose of fighting back is to help underline the issues to more Floridians, so perhaps more will care. The question is not “how many Floridians care about it now?” but “how many more will be taken in by Republican propaganda — and how many can be prevented from being taken in?”
I’m not a supporter of the Federation’s Prime Directive that disallows interfering in the development of primitive cultures.
Is your point that Floridians should not take public stances against Scott’s cruel and destructive policies, but should allow Republican propaganda to proceed unanswered?
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#184 written by Max 10 months ago
I know “absence of evidence …”. That said, it’s been two days since I respectfully and honestly asked for anyone to provide evidence, other than ideological, that a single payer health insurance system was worse than the current system in the US.
GROG did provide a little something that was, in fact, a non sequitur, easily demonstrated to be common, though rare, to both systems.
But no one has yet to provide any argument that shows any evidence that the current system in the US is more cost effective, less costly, and delivers better results than a single payer system would.
That being the case and until such argument is made, one has to conclude that, for those people against single payer, they prefer MORE COSTLY healthcare and WORSE RESULTS healthwise, in favor of an ideology.
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#185 written by Max 10 months ago
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#186 written by rgbact 10 months ago
it’s been two days since I respectfully and honestly asked for anyone
to provide evidence, other than ideological, that a single payer
health insurance system was worse than the current system in
the US.
Medicare is single payer and it’ll likely go bust in 5 years, is bankrupting the federal government, and has had cost trends far higher than inflation since it was implemented.On top of that, physicians are increasingly limiting Medicare patients, especially for primary care, due to much lower reimbursements. So,its unlikely the Feds will be able to squeeze them without affecting quality or wait times–which is why politicians can’t even avoid the annual doc fix—which is single payer cost control at work.
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#187 written by shortchain 10 months ago
rgbact,
Is it true that all of Medicare is going bust, or is that only true of the portion tacked on by the drug benefit, which is not paid for by the Medicare tax?
Is it still true? After all, that report is more than two years old now. Things change. Doctors get paid by people seeking treatment, and, as things went south and continued bad, people put off treatments. I wonder if doctors will still turn down Medicare patients. As for me, I know what I’d do if my doctor turned down Medicare patients. I’d get myself another doctor, because I don’t want to go to one whose only goal is to make the most money they can.
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#188 written by Max 10 months ago
rgbact,
I appreciate your comment, but that is a telling story simply about the bastardized US system and politics. It in no way compares single payer costs and outcomes in countries that have it versus the US mess, and the real comparability of one over the other using factual data.
Ex: Canada has a current cost per capita of around $5000/yr., versus $8000/yr in the US AND has equal or better outcomes. Germany has a primarily publicly financed system (>15% through private insurance) and ranks 18 positions ahead of the US in life expectancy and 30 positions ahead of the US in infant mortality at a cost per capita of about $4000.
These numbers are hard to justify keeping the status quo here. Please show otherwise.
But if anyone wants to simply go on the record as saying they don’t care about cost or results as long as their ideological beliefs remain secure, that’s fine. Just be honest and say so.
Data from CIA World Fact Sheet
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#189 written by Max 10 months ago
Total Health Expenditure per Capita and GDP per Capita, US and Selected Countries, 2008

Source: Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (2010), “OECD Health Data”, OECD Health Statistics (database). doi: 10.1787/data-00350-en (Accessed on 14 February 2011).
Notes: Data from Australia and Japan are 2007 data. Figures for Belgium, Canada, Netherlands, Norway and Switzerland, are OECD estimates.One glance and you see that EVERYBODY else is closely clustered around about $4000/yr. But the US is almost TWICE that!
As a percent of GDP, the other 14 countries average 9.7%, while the US spends 16%. And gets worse overall results!
I mean, really, what is the logic for paying MORE and getting LESS?? I truly want to know in an attempt to know and understand why one feels that way.
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#191 written by Max 10 months ago
I mean, if I HAVE to buy a new car, and I go to two dealerships to shop.
One dealer will sell me a fully equipped mid-size car for $20k. I must finance the car by paying more in taxes to cover the principle and interest.
The other offers me a base model compact that gets lower gas mileage for $40k. I must finance the car through a bank at the same rate as the other one.
Would anyone let their ideology cause them to choose the second car?
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#192 written by rgbact 10 months ago
Is it true that all of Medicare is going bust, or is that only
true of the portion tacked on by the drug benefit, which is not paid
for by the Medicare tax?Just Part A technically. Its a complicated accounting shell game—but overall its hard to argue that health costs aren’t burying the govt.
Here’s a more current survey. Not sure if its partisan, but findings are 1)49% of docs plan to stop accepting new Medicaid patients 2) 74% will stop accepting new Medicare patients
These numbers are hard to justify keeping the status quo here. Please show otherwise.
No one is arguing for the status quo—so its another false argument. The Ryan plan is hardly “status quo”—else liberals wouldn’t be going bonkers.
But you fail to address whether we just aren’t capable of the same results as other countries. Our military is single payer—yet it is far more costly than other countries military. Maybe there’s something besides “single payer” that accounts for why we blow so much money here?
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#193 written by shortchain 10 months ago
rgbact,
If it’s only a part of Medicare, what is the reason for saying “Medicare is going bust”? After all, a part of it can fail, but that doesn’t bring down the whole thing, and to argue otherwise is simply an attempt at guilt by association.
The “Ryan plan” — which isn’t so much as a plan to reform health care as it is a plan to eliminate any government healthcare and throw the burden of healthcare for the elderly and the poor onto the backs of the elderly and the poor — isn’t a step in the direction of cheaper healthcare. It’s a step in the direction of lowering the governmental cost of healthcare. And the only people it benefits are those who pay the majority of the taxes, viz the wealthiest Americans. The rest of us would see our costs sky-rocket or the availability of care disappear from our price range.
I don’t know who the “DPMA” is, who funds it, what its study methodology was, how it chose its sample, and why we should take its word for anything. I would rather see a study in which Medicare patients were surveyed to see if they had been turned away, and even then I would want a crosscheck of the data with the doctors in question.
As for the idea that we in this country are not capable of the same, or essentially the same, results as other countries — sorry, but Occam’s razor says that we should assume that we are capable of the same unless you can supply compelling evidence to the contrary.
And as for the cost of our military — yeah, sure, it’s just completely inconceivable why a country which has basically been fighting huge wars for the last 60 years has a lot higher medical costs than other countries whose participation in the military and in combat is far lower.
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#194 written by GROG 10 months ago
Max,
Infant mortality rates is an example of how statistics can be very misleading
In the US any baby born alive is considered…well… alive. . This is not the case in many countries with socialized health care who have requirements regarding birth weight, body length, and gestation period before they are considered “alive”.
In some countries deaths within 24 hours are considered still births. Not so in the US. We consider all live births a life and that greatly skews infant mortality rates.
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#195 written by shortchain 10 months ago
GROG,
Do, please, provide some citations to back up your assertion here. I doubt very much that the considerations you mention are significant. Any child born alive in this country has an excellent chance of living. Where the country suffers is in pre-natal care, not in post-natal care.Oh, wait — a search for “infant mortality rates misleading” pulls up links that refer to the Heritage foundation. Never mind.
And, when you look at the links, you find that there’s a lot of attempting to obfuscate, not give actual statistics. For example, one link says that, “when corrected for birth weight, the USA doesn’t have a higher infant mortality…”
And what causes lower birth weight, pray tell? The author doesn’t hint at what that might be, but we know already: a lack of prenatal care.
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Max,
Without looking at the data, I have to take GROG’s side on this one point. I could hypothesize that in the United States, a higher proportion of babies are born at 23–40 weeks gestation and therefore are at higher risk of infant mortality. Birth weight is one way of correcting the data to reflect this.Still, just as Michael consistently (and accurately) argues for a “market-basket” of many different polls in interpreting polling data, I’d urge GROG to look not just at one statistic (which can, of course, be manipulated or cherry-picked) but rather at a “market-basket” of health related statistics. That gives one a much more accurate view of what’s going on with health care in the United States.
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#198 written by shortchain 10 months ago
Monotreme,
Yes, “DPMA” is the “Doctor-Patient Medical Association” — that much we know. But that doesn’t tell us who they are. Hey, I’m a patient, occasionally, but I don’t recall them asking me about my opinion. Nor does it illuminate their study methodology, how they chose their sample population, etc, etc. -
#199 written by GROG 10 months ago
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Opponents of ACA like to cherry-pick specific polls and datasets and then generalize from them. Look at the general case instead of carefully-chosen specifics. If you look at total per-capita spending on healthcare and total quality of life, the USA is absolutely the worst in the civilized world. The primary difference is our for-profit insurance system. It’s really that simple.
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About Michael Weiss (323 posts)
Michael is a jack of many trades, and master of a few. His varied background includes government and private businesses, both large and small. His experience in the financial services and computer industries has led him to computer security.







rgbact, you missed my point. Republicans have been insisting that ACA is not only unconstitutional, but also is a socialist assault on our liberty. You may not agree with that, and may object to ACA on other grounds. But for those who do think that ACA is socialist, what are they now to think of Justice Roberts?