Threading the Needle
Ever since the Supreme Court heard oral arguments on the constitutionality of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA, “Obamacare”) individual mandate, pundits have been predicting that the mandate is dead. The remaining question would then be: will the Supreme Court find the law severable, that is, can the mandate be ruled unconstitutional but the rest of the law stands? Or does the whole thing go down because of an unacceptable mandate?
The Supreme Court finally answered today. By a five-to-four vote (Justices Breyer, Ginsburg, Kagan, and Sotomayor dissenting), the individual mandate was technically struck down as a violation of the Commerce Clause, but by a different five-to-four vote (Justices Alito, Kennedy, Scalia, and Thomas dissenting) the fine for being uninsured was not. In that regard, the Court threaded the needle, objecting to the “illegality” of being uninsured, while leaving the relevant penalty in the Act unchanged.
This decision is certainly a huge win for the Obama administration at first blush. But it may prove to be less of a win for Obama himself.
I’ll explain that in greater detail in a bit, but first let’s examine what just happened.
The mandate took on the form of revisions to section 5000A(a) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986. From Chapter 48 of PPACA (section breaks and designators removed):
If a taxpayer who is an applicable individual, or an applicable individual for whom the taxpayer is liable … fails to meet the requirement … for 1 or more months, then, [barring an acceptable exception] there is hereby imposed on the taxpayer a penalty.
Subsection (a) sets the requirements for an acceptable health plan:
The term ‘minimum essential coverage’ means any of the following:
GOVERNMENT SPONSORED PROGRAMS.—Coverage under the Medicare program … the Medicaid program … the CHIP program .… TRICARE … veteran’s health care program, or a health plan [for] Peace Corps volunteers.
EMPLOYER-SPONSORED PLAN.—Coverage under an eligible employer-sponsored plan.PLANS IN THE INDIVIDUAL MARKET.—Coverage under a health plan offered in the individual market within a State.
GRANDFATHERED HEALTH PLAN.—Coverage under a grandfathered health plan.
OTHER COVERAGE.—Such other health benefits coverage, such as a State health benefits risk pool, as the Secretary of Health and Human Services … recognizes for purposes of this subsection.
The Court concluded that the “shared responsibility payment” charged to those who do not have medical coverage does, in fact, amount to a tax. And there is a long history of taxes being attached to people’s behaviors, such that they can change behavior to avoid a tax. Since Congress has the authority to impose taxes, that makes the mandate constitutional.
The Court’s decision to not permit the law under the Commerce and Necessary & Proper Clauses lays an important precedent. It is, in essence, a shot across the bow of Congress to warn that coercion through taxation may be fine, but not mandating behavior with stronger force, such as criminality.
In any case, because the mandate-as-tax was upheld, severability became moot.
The pundits felt, based on oral arguments, that the mandate was a dead letter. This is reflected in the Intrade betting market on the death of the individual mandate, starting with oral arguments on March 27:
Before oral arguments, the consensus was that the mandate had about a 50 percent chance of survival. After the news of the oral arguments settled in, with CNN’s analyst Jeffrey Toobin making a strong case for the death of the mandate:
This still looks like a train wreck for the Obama administration, and it may also be a plane wreck. This entire law is now in serious trouble. It also seems that the individual mandate is doomed. I mean, Anthony Kennedy spent much of this morning talking about if we strike down the individual mandate, how should we handle the rest of the law? Now, it is less clear that they are going to strike down the whole law. There does seem to be some controversy in the court about that. Certainly there are some members of the court — Antonin Scalia, Justice Alito — who want to strike down the entire law, but it seemed almost a foregone conclusion today that they were going to strike down the individual mandate, and the only question is does the whole law go out the window with it?
After Toobin’s words sunk in, the markets pushed the percentage chance up to 60⁄40. The buzz around the death of the mandate meme grew, so that by the day before the decision, the chance was 80⁄20. In this case, the pundits were right.
Other court observers, such as SCOTUSblog’s Amy Howe, were more sanguine about the chances for the mandate’s survival. She wrote at the time:
With several Justices apparently dubious of the government’s arguments, two exchanges toward the end of Carvin’s argument stood out as potentially helpful to the government and may have given at least a glimmer of hope to the mandate’s supporters. The first came from Justice Elena Kagan, who asked Carvin whether he might have an easier argument if he weren’t arguing that the mandate is always unconstitutional, but instead that the mandate is at least unconstitutional as it applies to specific people (for example, Christian Scientists) who clearly were not going to be a part of the health care market and, by declining to buy insurance, would not incur health care costs that would be shifted to the rest of us. That line of reasoning might provide the Court with a way to uphold the mandate generally, while leaving open the possibility that individuals who object to the mandate could still challenge it.
The second, and possibly even more important, comment came from Justice Anthony Kennedy, a key swing vote on the Court. Justice Kennedy appeared to voice some sympathy for the government’s argument that the health care market is “unique.” Even if a healthy young person without insurance may not need health care in a particular time period, he reasoned, that young person will nonetheless be “very close” to having an effect on insurance rates – for example, on the theory that, as he ages, he will eventually need care that he can’t afford without insurance – in a way that just doesn’t happen in other markets.
In this case, Justice Kennedy came down on the side of the unconstitutionality of the mandate, which was predicted by his musings in response to Solicitor General Verrelli’s argument:
But the reason, the reason this is concerning, is because it requires the individual to do an affirmative act. In the law of torts our tradition, our law, has been that you don’t have the duty to rescue someone if that person is in danger. The blind man is walking in front of a car and you do not have a duty to stop him absent some relation between you. And there is some severe moral criticisms of that rule, but that’s generally the rule.
And here the government is saying that the Federal Government has a duty to tell the individual citizen that it must act, and that is different from what we have in previous cases and that changes the relationship of the Federal Government to the individual in the very fundamental
Yet, in a surprise move, Kennedy was not the swing vote in this decision; Roberts was.
The only restriction of substance to come out of this decision was a warning that the federal government may not withhold Medicare funds to states that are in compliance with the law as it existed prior to the PPACA.
As I said above, this decision looks like a huge win for the Obama administration, yet not necessarily for Obama.
To be sure, for those who understand what it means to be subject to annual and lifetime caps, and restrictions on coverage for preexisting conditions, this is clearly a big win for all of us. But most Americans are blithely unaware that there are issues with preexisting conditions. After all, a majority get their coverage through their employers, and employer-supplied coverage rarely excludes preexisting conditions in the first place. And for those whose policies do exclude preexisting conditions, a relatively small percentage of them ever find themselves in need of treatment for one. The same can be said for lifetime caps. Few people know that they’re there, and fewer still realize how easy it is to bump into those restrictions.
So, while it benefits those who don’t yet know they’ll need it, most Americans won’t even notice the preexisting condition and lifetime cap changes.
Furthermore, many Americans are woefully ignorant about the very existence of the law. Nearly a quarter of Americans polled in February believed that the PPACA had already been repealed. With the significant press surrounding today’s ruling, the number who today believed that it had been repealed prior to February is most likely significantly lower. Nonetheless, this points to upcoming political posturing from the Republicans.
Expect to hear for the next several months that the oh-so-unpopular Obamacare is still around, and won’t go away until Obama goes away. This will still be a somewhat difficult postition for Republican Presidential candidate Mitt Romney to take, since it will require that spend time defending his earlier actions with respect to Romneycare.
And that messaging will put Democrats on the defensive. As should be abundantly clear by now, when it comes to messaging, Democrats lose the messaging battle whenever nuance enters into the equation. Yet the response must necessarily be nuanced: “Yes, the mandate remains, but the lifetime caps and preexisting condition coverage go along with that.” Yeah, that fits on a bumper sticker just fine, doesn’t it?
The decision, then, hands a campaigning gift to the Republican Party, and provides to them a rallying cry of “Defeat Obama to Defeat Obamacare!”
In the end, then, we’re left with the realization that both sides got something they wanted. Democrats got the policy, and Republicans got messaging for this year’s campaigns. Just as with Arizona v. United States earlier this week, you can be sure Republicans will walk away declaring victory, even when the reality is exactly the opposite. And it seems that a substantial percentage of Americans will believe them.
Related articles
- Poll: Americans don’t like Obamacare, but love what’s in it (americablog.com)

This entry was posted by Michael Weiss on June 28, 2012 at 8:15 am, and is filed under Breaking News, Supreme Court Watch. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0.You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.
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#202 written by shortchain 10 months ago
Monotreme,
Yeah, another organization whose name was chosen to obscure their purpose, funded no doubt by donations from wealthy right-wing ideologues.Around here the “Concerned Women of America Legislative Action Committee” is showing anti-ACA advertisements. Guess who is behind that organization?
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#203 written by Max 10 months ago
This is not the case in many countries with socialized health care who have requirements regarding birth weight, body length, and gestation period before they are considered “alive”.
OK. For shits and giggles throw that one out. Although several of the articles that pose that assertion admit that, even doing so, the US will STILL have a worse record than many countries. (“Even if the counting methods were uniform, we’d still be lower than many countries. This is preventable through education of young mothers who invariably fail to get available pre-natal care.” American Thinker)
Have you a counter for life expectancy in the US lagging as well? Perhaps other countries don’t count a person being dead until they miss their next birthday party?
And STILL no counter for the costs being almost TWICE everywhere else.
Arguing over purely statistical matters appears that it may well reduce the matter to “preponderance of evidence” instead of “beyond a reasonable doubt”. But even the preponderance of evidence, hell, even a DRAW, supports single payer systems considering the costs. Unless you can come up with data to support otherwise.
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#204 written by Max 10 months ago
BTW, my girlfriends granddaughter just celebrated her 1st birthday. She was born 28 June last year at 25 1⁄2 weeks gestation, weighing 1.2 lbs (545g). Her due date had been 7 October. She had a typical incomplete closure in her heart that had to be done surgically. She did not leave did not leave NICU and the hospital until 10 November. She has had extensive follow-up care. Fortunately, she appears to be developmentally normal for a 8–9 month old. My sweet Beth teaches preschool children with disabilities, so she does a good job of tracking her own granddaughters development.
Perhaps Mono could contribute an estimation of the costs she has incurred in her first year. My guess is well in excess of a half million dollars.
Her mother had no insurance. Her father is a shit who has left the state. Guess who is paying?
Two years from now, that will not be the case. -
Max,
Her mother had no insurance. Her father is a shit who has left the state. Guess who is paying?
Two years from now, that will not be the case.Are you sure about that? What happens if she opts to pay the penalty? Who picks up the difference between her small penalty and the half-million her daughter cost?
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#206 written by rgbact 10 months ago
If it’s only a part of Medicare, what is the reason for saying “Medicare is going bust”?
Because the trust fund is the fund thats all attributable to Medicare spending—the general fund “going bust” can be blamed on Medicare.….and many other things. Its why I prefer trust funds, since then you can’t blame other areas for the fund “going bust”.
As for the DPMA, like it or not, alot of data is generated by partisan groups. I presume any data from Kaiser or FamiliesUSA would be deemed “impartial” by liberals. Hard to find a true “unbiased” source.
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#207 written by GROG 10 months ago
Max,
There are too many factors involved in life expentancy to blame it solely on health insurance. Americans are the fatest people in the world. We eat unhealthier foods. Up until the mid 80’s, we led the world in per capita smokers. We get sicker more often than Europeans. Not sure how that’s the fault of our health care system.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/22/science/22tier.html?_r=1&em -
#208 written by GROG 10 months ago
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There are too many factors involved in life expentancy to blame it solely on health insurance.
Speaking for myself, I blame the immense cost on health insurance. The point is, we’re spending far too much compared to the poor results, and we are spending too much partly because we have a for-profit insurance model. We need to do more, yes. But thankfuly, we now have PPACA which will help rein in the excesses of the insurance companies.
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rgbact said,
As for the DPMA, like it or not, alot of data is generated by partisan groups. I presume any data from Kaiser or FamiliesUSA would be deemed “impartial” by liberals. Hard to find a true “unbiased” source.In fact, by definition, there is no such thing as an unbiased human source.
Still, there’s a big difference here.
The so-called “Doctor-Patient Medical Association” (DPMA) is not well-regarded in its field. Despite 30 years in academic medical centers, I’d never heard of it before.
DPMA, ALEC, and similar organizations exist solely to promote their agitprop.
The other organizations you mention were set up for a completely different purpose and engage in what you perceive as biased communications only as a sideline, not as their raison d’être.
Frankly, I’m surprised you can’t recognize the difference. It’s the same as a real, however misguided, person commenting on a blog vs a sockpuppet squirting ink.
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#211 written by Max 10 months ago
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GROG said,
There are too many factors involved in life expentancy to blame it solely on health insurance. Americans are the fatest people in the world. We eat unhealthier foods. Up until the mid 80’s, we led the world in per capita smokers. We get sicker more often than Europeans. Not sure how that’s the fault of our health care system.You had me there until the last sentence. You’re defending a so-called “health care system” that doesn’t assume fault for this sort of outcome?
How is that “health care”? -
#213 written by Max 10 months ago
GROG,
So you are essentially saying that there is no valid frame of reference to make a comparison, right? We can look at no data, life expectancy or infant mortality or anything, most all of which show that US citizens are WORSE OFF than their counterparts, and derive a conclusion? It wouldn’t be more the fact that most all the data shows that “worse off” part, is it? Maybe we should throw geography in the invalidation mix. “They don’t live HERE, so you can’t count them”! Right?
Is there ANY data you might accept that compares the health of Americans with any other countries?
But for now, do you throw out the cost factor alone as well? Do we just dismiss the fact that we pay almost TWICE what the rest of the industrialized world pays for health care?
Otherwise, you are saying that you are willing to accept the status quo “just because”, leaving out the ideological argument.
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Is there ANY data you might accept that compares the health of Americans with any other countries?
I bet there is. There are a handful of cancers, for instance, where Americans have a longer survival rate than Europeans.
Of couse, a lot of that is because we detect them earlier. People don’t acutally live longer with the cancer, they just know about it sooner, but hey, Republicans have been using that as a valid comparison since 2009.
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#215 written by rgbact 10 months ago
We can look at no data, life expectancy or infant mortality or anything,
No, a good thing to look at would be medical results for patients with similar conditions. You want to measure the HC system—so you should pick something that measures when people actually use HC—–not measure that some people are just better at avoiding having to use HC cuz they eat right or whatever.
So add a conditional probability to your life expectancy stat (if condition X, then compare life expectancy)
Otherwise, you are saying that you are willing to accept the status quo
Once again, false argument.
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#216 written by Max 10 months ago
rgbact,
Wrong!!!!!!!! And this is for GROG’s excuses as well.
We are talking SYSTEMIC!!!!! It’s why we call it the H/C “system”. Which, by definition INCLUDES everything. All factors. We can be so exclusive as to invalidate the data. Which is what y’all are trying to do.
“so you should pick something that measures when people actually use HC”
No! Because A PART of the problem with the US SYSTEM is that people do NOT use H/C because of the barriers, such as cost, or delay going to use H/C until they are extremely ill because of barriers, etc. They do not get the prophylactic care they should because of the barriers. They do not get the information to live a healthier lifestyle because of the barriers. And so on. SYSTEMIC!
To compute comparisons otherwise is unfair, unrealistic and plain damned stupid.
Like golf: Play the shot as it lies.
Otherwise, YOU ARE CHEATING!
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#217 written by shortchain 10 months ago
rgbact,
Except the value of health care isn’t merely in prolonging the life of a sick person. Isn’t it very important if it prevents people, as much as possible, from getting sick in the first place?For example, we remember a few news reports where people who lacked health care avoided going in for some fairly routine thing. They then developed a far more significant problem, which killed them. Is it really a valid measure of a health care system that a person with terminal pneumonia lived another 20 percent longer than in Europe, when the reason the pneumonia became so serious was because they didn’t go to the doctor, since they didn’t have insurance?
Of course any single statistic won’t measure the value of any complex situation. However — we in the USA are paying nearly double what every other developed nation pays. Are you really going to try and pretend that we have health care which is twice as good as that available in Canada, France, England, Holland, Switzerland, Germany, and the rest?
You can, like GROG, quibble about a couple of percent — whether we should rank 35th or 25th in infant mortality, for example — but given the amount we pay, there really should not be any comparison. We should be at the top or near the top.
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I think rgbact means this part of Obamacare:
http://www.pcori.org/Thanks for reminding us how important this part of the bill is.
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I actually like rgbact’s approach. Let’s look at people with similar conditions.
Let’s use “birth” as the “similar conditions.” Starting from birth, what is the life expectancy? People are in a pretty similar condition at birth. yes? Or are they? What is comparative health at birth? Do Europeans start out with an advantage there? If so, why?
I think that’s the place to start. From birth, what complications of living can be expected, and what is the length of the expected survival rate? (i.e., what is the life expectancy?) And what is the quality of life from this initial condition to eventual death?
Or maybe earlier, at conception. What is the comparative rate of miscarriage due to inadequate prenatal care?
And — vitally important — what are the comparative costs for achieving the various comparative outcomes?
If we don’t address the questions from this level, we can’t possibly examine the entire system. Anything other than that is inexcusable cherrypicking.
Republicans will not, will not, will not look at these questions. They will obfuscate, confuse, and outright lie rather than face these questions honestly.
The fact is, looking at the average person, America has the absolute worst medical care in the “civilized” world, at more than twice the cost of anyone else. And a great deal of the difference can be attributed to for-profit insurance companies and hospitals, and indirectly to the fact that doctors have to pay for their own education.
And those are the basic facts. All else is either elaboration or obfuscation.
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Monotreme,
I think rgbact means this part of Obamacare:
http://www.pcori.org/Thanks for reminding us how important this part of the bill is.
By sheer coincidence, this is a topic I touch on peripherally tomorrow as well.
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#221 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
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I’m always amused by someone who slams a “for-profit” business model? Makes me wonder if they’d be willing to do what they do for free?
“Non-profit” is not the same as “volunteer.” I know you know that, and you know I know you know, so there’s no advantage for you in being disingenuous.
We don’t actually have an insurance system. We have a hodgepodge of programs that developed for a variety of reasons around a variety of target customers. It’s time the system was revamped into something efficient and streamlined and created for the purpose of delivering health care to the people who need it, rather than delivering profits to shareholders.
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#223 written by rgbact 10 months ago
I’m always amused by someone who slams a “for-profit” business
model? Makes me wonder if they’d be willing to do what they do
for free?I also get confused. Whats the alternative.….charity? This just in, people work for money,even saintly govt workers and teachers. Are teacher’s salaries considered evil “for profit”, cuz they seem to be doing fairly well.
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rgbact,
Unlike with Mule, I’m not convinced you do know the difference beween “non-profit” and “volunteer.” You might want to look up the words.
Also the difference between “worker” and “shareholder.” Paying people to do the work is not the same as structuring a corporation to make profits for shareholders. You might want to learn something about economics. Talk to Mule about that.
And teachers are not doing all that well, they’ve got tough jobs and very low pay.
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#225 written by GROG 10 months ago
DC,
America has the absolute worst medical care in the “civilized” world,
How did you develop the opinion that we have the worst medical care in the civilized world? Or are you stating that as fact? If so, can you provide sources?If medical care sucks so bad in the U.S., how do we have the best hospitals in the world like the Mayo Clinic, Johns Hopkins, Mass. General, and the Cleveland Clinic? Why do the best physicians from all over the world come here to train and practice?
As discussed, infant mortality rates are not an accurate measure of health care due to they way the U.S. defines life versus other nations like Japan who don’t consider a birth one which dies in the first day. That also affects life expentancy as well many other non-medical related things like poor diet, obesity, accidental deaths like car accidents. We have the most diverse population in the world. Japanese Americans have the same life expentancy as Japanese people. White Americans have the same life expentancy as white western Europeans.
The U.S. ranks first or second in the world in liver transplants, kidney transplants, heart transplants, total knee replacements, and coronary bypass.
We have the most costly health care in the world but we also easy access to MRI’s, and CAT scans compared to the rest of the world. We have the shortest waiting times in the world for elective surgeries. Widest choice of doctors and hospitals. Easy access to cancer screening.
Is it great? No, but certainly not “worst in the civilized world”. That’s untruthful propaganda at it’s most dangerous.
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#226 written by GROG 10 months ago
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GROG,
It’s really a bit of meaningless fluff for anyone to trot out “worst” or “best” on anything without an associated metric. The one thing we can all agree upon is that we have the most expensive healthcare in the world. And it seems pretty clear that we’re nowhere near the top in terms of value (defined as bang for the buck). That is, we spend twice as much as Canadians do, but I can’t imagine how one would conclude that we’re getting results that are twice as good. Surely you can agree with this, yes? -
FWIW, many of the Blue Cross/Blue Shield companies are nonprofit. That doesn’t seem to have had an appreciable impact on the cost of medical care.
Yet Medicare has far lower overhead. So does VA. So maybe it’s just that government-run is more efficient, and we need to scrap all the private insurance companies. I’ll accept that.
My point about Mule and rgbact not acknowledging the difference between “non-profit” and “volunteer” still stands, however.
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How did you develop the opinion that we have the worst medical care in the civilized world?
By examining the whole panoply of outcomes, not just the cherry-picked metrics from right-wing blogs. Life expenctancy, quality of life, infant mortality, heart disease, cancer rates, quality-of-life, you name it. Yeah, you can find cherry-picked tiny metrics where we’re better. Taken holistically, we suck.
If medical care sucks so bad in the U.S., how do we have the best hospitals in the world like the Mayo Clinic, Johns Hopkins, Mass. General, and the Cleveland Clinic? Why do the best physicians from all over the world come here to train and practice?
If you’re obscenely wealthy, you can afford good healthcare. If you’re not obscenely wealthy, a major disease or accident will make you go broke, and you’ll still die sooner than if you lived anywhere in Europe or Canada. 55% of middle-class bankruptsies are due to medical issues, and in 75% of those cases, the victims had insurance. We suck at providing medical care.
You’ve already said that no metrics are valid other than your right-wing cherry-picked metrics for teeny slices of the question. Looking at the whole question of providing adequate health care, we suck.
We have the most costly health care in the world but we also easy access to MRI’s, and CAT scans compared to the rest of the world. We have the shortest waiting times in the world for elective surgeries. Widest choice of doctors and hospitals. Easy access to cancer screening.
Since most people can’t afford most of that, it doesn’t matter. Having the best in the world, and still letting people die if they don’t have insurance — or, worse, if they do — means the things you list might as well not exist. (We build the bestest sportcars in the world, for only $250,000 each — that doesn’t mean the average American drives one.) We suck at providing medical care.
And to get sucky care, we charge twice as much as anyone else.
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#232 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
“That is, we spend twice as much as Canadians do, but I can’t imagine how one would conclude that we’re getting results that are twice as good. Surely you can agree with this, yes?”
Just throwing this out there, but has anyone ever considered the “elasticity” of health care costs? I mean, we discuss regularly and, for the most part, understand the impact of demand (in-)elasticity for everyday goods and commodities and how only marginal changes in supply can lead to significant changes in price (take petroleum, for example).
Could the same not be true for health care? So, to use your example Michael, maybe we’re getting results that are only 10% better than Canadians (completely arbitrary estimate and one that would be highly subjective anyway), but that extra 10% in results may come at a 100% increase in costs.
But I think this leads us into another discussion we should be having.…and that’s about providing the transparency to individual heatlh care consumers to make informed decisions about whether or not the cost/benefit ratio works for them or not. Arguably, to some it’s worth it to pay double for only a 10% increase in the results, and for others it’s not. But I think consumers should have more of a choice in the matter, and those who are willing and able to pay 100% more for only a 10% average increase in the result should be given that opportunity. Likewise, someone content with the lesser result and paying half should have that opportunity as well. Just food for thought.
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#233 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
“My point about Mule and rgbact not acknowledging the difference between “non-profit” and “volunteer” still stands, however.”
Maybe drawing comparisons to volunteering was a bit of a straw man, but my point still stands that not everyone who’s chomping at the bits to make the health insurance industry “non-profit” would be so happy if their line of work were also made “non-profit.”
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#234 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
“By examining the whole panoply of outcomes, not just the cherry-picked metrics from right-wing blogs. Life expenctancy, quality of life, infant mortality, heart disease, cancer rates, quality-of-life, you name it. Yeah, you can find cherry-picked tiny metrics where we’re better. Taken holistically, we suck.”
Yet people keep beating down the door to try and come (immigrate) here, though you don’t see that same kind of enthusiasm by people trying to immigrate to Canada, the UK, Norway, Sweden, France, Italy, Japan, etc.
Which actually makes for a good point as to why the US might lag behind some of those other countries in terms of health outcomes. We “import” far more poverty than they do, and poor heatlh outcomes associate closely with poverty. How many millions of poor people have immigrated here from Latin American countries the past few decades? It’s safe to say that most of them had health outcomes that were below average, bringing the average throughout the US down. Do you think this has been much of a problem in the countries I listed above?
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I think this leads us into another discussion we should be having.…and that’s about providing the transparency to individual heatlh care consumers to make informed decisions about whether or not the cost/benefit ratio works for them or not.
The problem here is that after you get hit by a car while on vacation in Colorado, you’re not going to be doing much comparison shopping while in a coma. The whole “comparison shopping” idea just doesn’t work for the actual expensive part of health care.
Maybe drawing comparisons to volunteering was a bit of a straw man, but my point still stands that not everyone who’s chomping at the bits to make the health insurance industry “non-profit” would be so happy if their line of work were also made “non-profit.”
True enough. But health care is not the same as, say, cigarette production or haircuts. The former deals with staying alive, and really shouldn’t be treated as a commodity or as a manufactured luxury good.
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Yet people keep beating down the door to try and come (immigrate) here, though you don’t see that same kind of enthusiasm by people trying to immigrate to Canada, the UK, Norway, Sweden, France, Italy, Japan, etc.
Health care is not the only reason, is it?
But hey, maybe people from Latin America are only stopping here on the way to Canada.
Actually, I’d think health care is probably the reason for a tiny fraction, if anyone at all. (I’ve never seen stats on that. I don’t know if any exist.) I’d bet it has more to do with economic possiblities and constitutional protections, and the fact that traditionally we have accepted and embraced immigrants, but that’s just a guess. Have you any evidence one way or another?
Which actually makes for a good point as to why the US might lag behind some of those other countries in terms of health outcomes. We “import” far more poverty than they do, and poor heatlh outcomes associate closely with poverty.
Interesting theory, but healthcare-wise we don’t actually treat immigrants anywhere near as good as say, Canada or France. Even tourists; if you get sick or injured while visiting France, your medical costs are simply covered. That’s pretty much true for vitually all of Europe.
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#237 written by Max 10 months ago
CIA (American) World Factbook:
Life expectancy at birth:Canada — 12thUS — 50th
Infant mortality:Canada — 182US — 174
Crude Death Rate:Canada — 96US — 87
Health care costs per capita:Canada — ~$5000/yrUS — ~$8000/yr
Again I ask the original question:
Other than ideology, how do you justify NOT going to a single-payer system versus the current US health insurance system?
And I note (AGAIN) that no one has even tried!
If it’s only ideology, JUST SAY SO!
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#238 written by GROG 10 months ago
DC,
Have you got any idea how many hours teachers work, or how much of their own pay goes to clasroom supplies?
In Ohio, the average teacher salary is $50K per year, which does not include the very best benefit package available. They enjoy an unbelievable retirment package. This includes pay for the 12 weeks during the summer that they do not work. They work much less than 40 per week on average.
Teachers do not have “very low pay”, nor do they work excessive hours.
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#239 written by GROG 10 months ago
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#240 written by rgbact 10 months ago
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#241 written by shortchain 10 months ago
GROG,
It’s a bit odd that you want to simply state a single number and then claim that it’s “high” for teacher salaries. After all, if one compares like to like, as you want to do for some things, such as medical care, then you should, to be consistent, compare teacher salaries to the salaries of other people with bachelor’s (or more in many cases) degrees.
What’s the average salary for a college graduate in Ohio? From what I’ve understood, the average salary for a recent college graduate is on the order of about 43K, and, if you include all workers with college educations, nationally it’s close to 60K. So saying the average salary of teachers in Ohio is 50K means you are saying they are paid less by about 17 percent than the other college grauates. Which understates the actuality, because many senior teachers have masters degrees.
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#242 written by Max 10 months ago
Well, GROG, it seems pretty self evident that 1) the chances that an infant will survive it’s first year, and 2) the expectation of longevity when one is born, are pretty good indicators of the GENERAL health of a citizenry. It may not be perfect, but it’s the best we have as a GUIDELINE, especially compared with costs to reach those results. And they are generally accepted as reasonable comparisons since OUR Central Intelligence Agency publishes the comparative data.
Since neither you, nor anyone else, has even ATTEMPTED to provide ANY other general indicators, or to provide ANY comparisons using “like kind” massaged data with these factors that might address any concerns you may have concerning fairness, you have ABSOLUTELY nothing to show to make your “status quo” argument valid.
Begs the question: When are YOU going to make your argument using facts instead of simply sniping around the edges of generally accepted data. We’re going on 4 or 5 days since I originally asked the question on single payer comparisons and STILL no arguments AGAINST.
So I say (AGAIN), since it does NOT appear the “anti” side has any logical arguments, why can’t you just say “We got nothing. We just are ideologically opposed.”
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#243 written by Max 10 months ago
rgbact,
And again I reply.….we already have a single payer program. Its called Medicare.
Actually we have two PROGRAMS. Medicare and the VA. Both of which deliver care at AT LEAST the quality of the system as a whole and at LOWER COST. I will concede that the VA has issues, but those issues are DIRECTLY related to the overwhelming of the system by two wars, high number of traumatized patients and lack of funding by predominately GOP led budget shortfalls. You are welcome to demonstrate otherwise if you feel me to be incorrect in that statement. I’m in a highly veteran populated area and and close by Brooks Army Medical Center where a great many of those traumatized soldiers are treated, so you better be ready to have a good case! Wanna show us some polls of how many veterans are willing to ditch their VA care? Or answer the challenge “Keep your government paws off my Medicare!”?
But we aren’t discussing PROGRAMS, we are discussing an entire SYSTEM. Perhaps you would be in favor of simply saying “Medicare for all”?
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Mule,
has anyone ever considered the “elasticity” of health care costs?
Sure. I know I’ve brought it up before. For over two-thirds of Americans, the bulk of the cost of healthcare is borne by somebody else. In that regard, it’s much like how gasoline is heavily subsidized in several countries in the Middle East, so people consume far more per capita than they would absent those subsidies.
Arguably, to some it’s worth it to pay double for only a 10% increase in the results, and for others it’s not.
Naturally, but that leaves us with an uncomfortable discussion that we as a nation don’t appear to be ready to have. That is, we will end up with “death panels” of one sort or another. We may have it be an equal distribution of healthcare resources to everyone. Or we may have it concentrated in the hands of the wealthy, and allow those in the bottom quintiles to have shorter lives. Or we may subsidize those at the bottom, make the wealthy pay their own way, and squeeze those in the middle. But all of those options require that we stop pretending the “preserve life at any cost” model makes sense.
I also suspect that few Americans are sufficiently well informed to be able to recognize the connection between the money and the services received. How much does a round of chemotherapy cost? How much does an emergency surgery to fix a burst aneurysm cost? Do you know? I’m far better informed than the average American, and I don’t know the answer to those questions. And those are but two treatments out of literally tens of thousands of possibilities. How are we supposed to know what we need?
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They work much less than 40 per week on average.
You are including lesson plans, grading papers, meeting with students after class, etc., etc? Bullshit. They work at least 60 hrs/week. Ask any teacher.
Compare the salary to the average engineer with equal education. Subtract out how much teachers spend on classroom activities out of their own pockets.
They derserve the retirment packages. You try to teach a couple of hundred kids each day (5 — 8 periods of class times 30 or 40 kids per class for the average high school teacher, for example).
Teachers should be driving Cadillacs. And we need at least twice as many of them. Schools should be cathedrals. We need to stop skimping on educating our children. No wonder we’ve got so many adults who can’t think.
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#247 written by rgbact 10 months ago
Teachers should be driving Cadillacs. And we need at least twice as many of them.
Yes, we rank badly in education as we do in healthcare.…..but that only means we need to spend more money on the govt education system, right? Unionized teachers are never accountable for their results, unlike evil insurance company employees. Maybe single payer education will solve all our probelms? Single payer solves all problems.
And it works pretty damn well.
Yes, the HC system underperforms.….but none of its due to Medicare or Medicaid or the VA or Tricare or Federal employees system. Its all the evil private sectors fault! Govt healthcare rocks!
Btw, this post contains some sarcasm.
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Btw, this post contains some sarcasm.
Too bad. I was going to agree with you. Guess not, huh?
You were actually correct in nearly everything, if a bit hyperbolic, although unionized teachers (like any other employees) really are accountable for their performance (again, you really need to talk to a teacher. I guess you don’t know much about how the education system works).
I understand you don’t like gubmint. Is there a reason you live here instead of Somalia? Just curious. Seriously, I really am. And no, I’m not being sarcastic. I truly want to know.
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#249 written by GROG 10 months ago
So saying the average salary of teachers in Ohio is 50K means you are saying they are paid less by about 17 percent than the other college grauates. Which understates the actuality, because many senior teachers have masters degrees.
They also work about 17% less, so it all equals out. Also, $50k is an average including first year teachers. Most teachers with advanced degrees earn more than $50k.DC,
My Mom was a teacher and I have several aunts who are retired teachers. They’ll be the first to tell you they didn’t avergage 60 hours per week. No way, no how. They get every holiday off. Extended Christmas vacation. Twelve weeks off in the summer. Absolutely no way they average 60 hour work weeks.
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#250 written by shortchain 10 months ago
GROG,
Sorry, but you speak from ignorance. Teachers typically work as many hours, or more, as other people.What part of “average” do you not understand? Since 50K is an average including first-year teachers, and, as you point out, most teachers with advanced degrees (senior teachers, that is) earn more than 50K, first-year teachers must therefore earn much less than 50K.
You are displaying a quantum leap in willful selective perception.
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#251 written by shortchain 10 months ago
GROG,
Teachers don’t need to work 60 hour weeks, on average, to make up for their “extra time off” in the summer. The average work-week is 45 hours (and is it that much for folks with college degrees, we ask?). 60 hours would be, let’s see now, a 33 percent increase. So they would only have to put in an average of 52 hours a week. Which is pretty common for teachers these days.What your mother did or didn’t do makes no difference, unless you are prepared to generalize to an entire profession based on a few examples. Which, of course, you may be prepared to do — just don’t expect others to follow.
Here’s the thing: the size of classes has grown over the years. When you have a class of 35, it’s a huge bump in the amount of work compared with a class of 20. All that grading of papers adds up. And as state and local support for public schools has dropped, teachers have increasingly been called on to make up the difference.
Are there teachers who put in a lot less time? Of course. There are teachers who don’t care, who just mark down whether a student turned in a paper, who make up grades based on whether they like the student, who are best friends with the superintendent of schools (I’m think of the bozo who taught “Modern Problems” when I was in school, blathered right-wing nonsense continually, threw me out of class for making it obvious that I was bored, and embezzled money from the school paper fund).
But it would be a mistake to generalize from the relatively few bad apples to the whole barrel.
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#253 written by Max 10 months ago
Well, I guess it’s a default settlement. The needle has been threaded.
No conservative has given ANY factual data concerning the general health of the citizenry of industrialized countries that show that single payer health care systems do not deliver better results and at lower cost than the US hodgepodge.
Their objections are NOT fact based, but are strictly ideological.
Thank you for your participation.
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#254 written by Max 10 months ago
dc,
That is not correct.
60*39=2340
2340/52=45Beth has 25 years in teaching and holds a Masters in Special Ed. She make a tad over $60k. She goes in at 0730 and leaves at 1700 most every day. Plus she does an hour or more at home in the evening doing her lesson plans for the following day. A couple time a week she has after hours meeting with parents of her students that last an hour or two. So, we are at ((9.5 + 1)*5) + 3= 58 hours/week. Plus 3–5 days inservice training and certification in the summer. 8*4=32.
Now 39*58=2262, 2262 + 32= 2294, 2294/52= 44+ hrs/wk average.
And this does not account for the several hundred dollars she spends out of pocket each year in supplies for her classroom.
$60k/2294= $26/hr.
For a Masters degree and 25 years experience.Please, stop with the pure ideology and no thoughtfulness.
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The problem with the “teacher’s are paid too much/little” memes is that it depends on one’s yardstick. Compared against other people with masters degrees, teachers aren’t paid that much. I made more without a masters degree than most teachers make with one. And with a masters degree I make far more than any teacher I know…in base salary, anyway. The picture becomes muddier when including the benefits packages.
On the other hand, teachers make more than most working professionals. Even after deducting the several hundred dollars per year in classroom supplies. That is particularly true when the total compensation package is included.
And it doesn’t help teachers’ cause when teachers’ unions focus on preserving their jobs, even if it comes at the expense of quality improvement programs such as merit-based pay or results-based tenure.
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#256 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
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So, we are at ((9.5 + 1)*5) + 3= 58 hours/week.
As I said, around 60 hrs / week.
I understand many people want to average that over the whole year, including the months of summer vacation (during which time many teachers attend classes or take part-time jobs).
My point is that while they are working, they work long hours. Thank you for confirming that.
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And it doesn’t help teachers’ cause when teachers’ unions focus on preserving their jobs,
That’s one of the things a union is supposed to do. I wish all workers had that kind of aggressive union supporting them. I suspect most of the animus against teachers’ unions is just the politics of envy.
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#259 written by shortchain 10 months ago
I agree that it’s difficult to find a good yardstick to measure whether teacher’s pay is high or low. Just another failure of the “money/hr is the measure of a man” philosophy of the market fundamentalists, because, as has been clear for centuries, a teacher’s mark on the world, for good or ill, is far greater than that of almost any other profession.
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#260 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
“That’s one of the things a union is supposed to do.”
The second part of his sentence is what’s key and is what underscores the bulk of negative sentiment towards unions. It’s not the job-preserving function of the unions that people loathe, it’s preserving jobs at any and all costs and at the expense of a better way of doing things. My dad was in a union, but he shudders when he hears stories of unions betraying their intended function of making a legitimate defense of workers’ collective and individual rights to protecting people and processes that do not deserve defending and are destructive, costly, and regressive for society.
“I wish all workers had that kind of aggressive union supporting them.”
No thanks. I’m doing just fine without a union. And I know that millions more are in the same boat.
“I suspect most of the animus against teachers’ unions is just the politics of envy.”
This is rich. Especially since it’s typically liberals who play the, “Hey, YOU deserve this because look at all the things THAT GUY has that you don’t!” card to drum up support. Democrats/liberals have helped create an embittered class of American people who have more than enough house/apartment to live in, more than enough food to eat, more than enough clothes to wear, more than enough entertainment to enjoy, etc. all because there are a handful of schmoes out there with 8-figure mansions by the coast who roll around in their Bentleys and Ferraris and spend time at their highfalutin country clubs or out on the yacht. Seriously, why should I give a shit?
There are legitimate concerns about unions and their effect on society, and to blithely dismiss them (not saying you do but you’re a pretty staunch defender) is tone-deaf, at best. Next time you wax poetic about how great unions have been for protecting workers, I want you to think about the times there have been weather events that have caused emergencies by knocking out power to hundreds of thousands to millions of people and how, in some of those instances, many of those people were without power for a longer period than necessary because unionized labor was given monopoly rights to the cleanup and restoration and non-union labor was forced to stay out and not help, even though they would’ve been vital in helping with timely repairs.
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#261 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
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#263 written by shortchain 10 months ago
@Mule,
Hmm. I wonder what the person who said: “Makes me wonder if they’d be willing to do what they do for free?” meant, other than “money is the reason people do what they do”?I’m not in the mood to explain the obvious to someone incapable and undesirous of seeing it, and I have work to do, so you’ll get nothing more from me today.
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#264 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
“Hmm. I wonder what the person who said: “Makes me wonder if they’d be willing to do what they do for free?” meant, other than “money is the reason people do what they do”?”
It’s a pretty big leap to take an offhand comment (that I made) about an economic concept such as the profit motive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profit_motive) and make a sweeping conclusion that market fundamentalists rely heavily on the philosophy of “money/hr is the measure of a man.”
…”
I take your inability to respond with citations backing your original assertion, your condescending and defensive attitude, and reluctance to speak any further on the subject as acknowledgement that you don’t have anything substantive to offer on this matter and were just spouting off at the mouth above, conflating statements made in separate arguments that were addressing separate issues in order to defend your ideological drivel and paranoia.
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#265 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
“I disagree, but I will defend your right to be wrong.”
I’m not surprised that you would disagree with such facts as unions occasionally defending people/processes that are destructive, inefficient, and regressive for society or the fact that we haven’t had a timely response to some emergency situations because unionized labor was given privilege/priority over non-union labor.
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#266 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
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#267 written by Max 10 months ago
Acually, Mule, you are “doing alright” BECAUSE OF what the union movement did over the course of maybe 50 years. You absolutely can NOT ignore the number of things that are current practice, versus what they were PRIOR to the period commencing in the early 20th century, that benefit workers now. Health and safety, hours and pay scales, even in industries that have NEVER been unionized, directly reflect the competition for employees. That “market” is just as valid as any other. Given a choice, the potential worker will choose a company with better benefits, pay and working conditions. Plus the laws that provide employee protection in areas of health and safety, working hours and overtime all had their genesis in the labor movement.
So don’t pretend otherwise. It isn’t becoming of some who know as much about the subject as you do.
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#268 written by Max 10 months ago
In the early 90’s, when BMW came to South Carolina with their payscales, other existing companies (and NOT just manufacturing) commissioned a study that showed that their compensation packages would have to increase by $2/hr to retain (and recruit in the future) employees against the BMW competition.
And why did BMW HAVE such high payscales? To circumvent union organizing. Even in a right to work state.
So, workers benefited from the labor movement, though indirectly.
And similar occurrences happen around the country.
And you know this. -
… such facts as unions occasionally defending people/processes that are destructive, inefficient, and regressive for society or the fact that we haven’t had a timely response to some emergency situations because unionized labor was given privilege/priority over non-union labor.
Let’s turn that around. Are you claiming that corporate employers never “defend people/processes that are destructive, inefficient, and regressive for society”?
Are you claiming that corporate employers have not ever contributed to the reason why “we haven’t had a timely response to some emergency situations”?
No one ever claimed any interest group was entirely pure and innocent and perfect. But I’m happy to have one that looks out for the interests of the Common Folk over those of the monied élites.
America was founded on the principle that feudalism isn’t good for the common man, and that democracy, while not perfect, is a damn sight better than oligarchy. The point of unions is to advance the voice of The People, and democracy (by definition) is rule by The People. Unionism = democracy.
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My word, we’re all working harder. For example, one study (released Tuesday) says we’re putting in an average of 365 hours per year of overtime just answering work calls and emails from home.
So can we just knock it off with statements of the form, “[Profession X] works harder than [Profession Y]”? In any case, the statements are not defensible without cherry-picking data and scapegoating an entire class.In my view, that’s the major problem with Scott Walker’s rhetoric, as well as much of the rhetoric from both right and left. We can’t get to where we need to go by pointing fingers at each other. -
#271 written by Max 10 months ago
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#272 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
“So don’t pretend otherwise.…”
I wasn’t. And don’t talk past me as if that’s the case. That’s a real problem with you — and occasionally others — on this site, but this is one area where you might be the worst offender. You make big assumptions based on legitimate critiques that myself and guys like rgbact and GROG make. We’re not trying to deny/ignore the positives but get you guys to acknowledge there are some negatives. So maybe get off your high horse and look at the mirror when it comes to “pretending otherwise.”
Maybe a baseball analogy will put it in perspective. You (left-leaning) guys and gals keep touting this up-and-coming slugger who, in his rookie year, hit .325 with 35 home runs, 100 runs scored, and 100 runs batted in (all good full season hitting stats for those who don’t follow baseball). I come along, fully acknowledging the young hitter’s prowess, but point out that he struck out 150 times (a very high total over the course of a season) during the year, and that is a concern going forward. Rather than acknowledge the 150 strikeouts, you keep beating the hammer that I’m deny/ignoring/“pretending otherwise” about the .325/35/100/100 stat line. No, I’m not. I see it and fully acknowledge it, but it makes it seem like you guys are the ones who have a problem with denying/ignoring/pretending when you go out of your way to not talk about the 150 strikeouts.
Look at post 269 by DC. Perfect example of this. He’s merely putting up a deflection of my critique. Per the analogy, he wants to bring up why the veteran struck out 150 times last year. Look, we’re not talking about the veteran. We’re talking about the up-and-coming slugger.
I’m ready, willing, and able to admit that unions have done much good for society; now, will you guys admit there have been instances where they’ve done much harm?
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#273 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
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#274 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
I’m content that my view aligned very closely with Michaels’ on the matter. Not sure if that would be the case if we opened up a more detailed look at unions and delved into the subject from multiple directions, but he’s a voice of reason, and I liked what he said in post 255. Feel free to continue on with your far left rantings and paranoia and talking past me if you like.
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That may be the “point” but I often find it’s far away from what’s put into “practice.” Reality doesn’t always match intent, and I know you know that.
Absolutely true. Unions (like any other human institution) sometimes fall short of the ideal.
So, let’s go back — were you intenting to particularly single out teachers’ unions as causing problems (more than, say, corporate interests do)? Or was it your point that all human organizations sometimes cause problems?
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#276 written by Max 10 months ago
I wasn’t. And don’t talk past me as if that’s the case. That’s a real problem with you — and occasionally others — on this site, but this is one area where you might be the worst offender. You make big assumptions based on legitimate critiques that myself and guys like rgbact and GROG make. We’re not trying to deny/ignore the positives but get you guys to acknowledge there are some negatives. So maybe get off your high horse and look at the mirror when it comes to “pretending otherwise.”
Don’t try crying these crocodile tears! This paragraph is so much bull and pure excuse, my friend.
First sentence: “I wasn’t”. Bull!! You did and you were! YOUR exact quote: “No thanks. I’m doing just fine without a union. And I know that millions more are in the same boat.” Absolutely NOTHING COMPARATIVE in that. I am assuming nothing, just taking you at face value.And don’t hand me bullshit, because that is what it is, about trying “legitimate critiques” and tossing in a baseball analogy that WOULD APPLY if it were ever actually used, while FOR A WEEK, on THIS very thread, I asked for a data based rational challenge to the single payer system with NOTHING in response other than to essentially try to claim “no data exists”, even adjusted data. Go back and look! I’ll gladly reopen the floor for you. Give it your best shot to do what you have just now claimed you and GROG and rgbact do so well. Or simply say: irrespective of the data, my ideology is so strong on the matter that that is sufficient for me.
And I’ll challenge you to show ONE SINGLE instance that I have denied a valid comparison. Show one! The failure of your baseball analogy is that the “strike-outs” in addition to the balance of the stats line IS NOT what is given. (See GROG’s efforts to give anecdotal instances of particular heart illness, versus a general metric of overall population health.) Had he produced a rational need for adjustment to a given datum, then the adjusted data comparison, it would have been a valid challenge if it had then shown a different result. But with the “comparison” he DID use, NO ONE said his data was wrong. In fact, it was admitted his statement was correct. But it did NOT apply. Any more than telling us how much the ballplayer contributed to charity has to do with his stats line!
I WELCOME any challenge to data I present. If you challenge anything I present, I may then challenge the validity of your data, but if it survives, I’m MORE than glad to admit mistake or defeat. I’ve done it on these pages multiple times.
Batter UP!
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#277 written by GROG 10 months ago
At least union dues are going to support the U.S. tourism industry. I’m sure this is what union bosses had in mind back in the 20’s and 30’s. http://www.foxbusiness.com/government/2012/07/05/union-bling-union-junkets-1969452526/?test=latestnews
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#278 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
Whatever, Max. I don’t have time to engage you in that pedantic nonsense. Like shortchain above, you’re taking an offhand comment and interpreting far more than was ever intended. Just to spew partisan, ideological, and condescending bile, I’m assuming. It’s obvious you’re not interested in an open and honest discussion. Otherwise your demeanor would more closely resemble that of Michael’s, mclever’s, or Monotreme’s. Heck, even though we’re often miles apart, DC is good about politely agreeing to disagree without all the pedantic BS. Just knock it off or I will find even fewer reasons to engage you in a discussion.
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Grog, is it your contention that “fancy union junkets” signifiy the totality of union acheivements?
Or perhaps that unions have not been the reason we have a 40-hour work week, overtime pay, paid vacations and holidays, and workplace safety laws?
Or is it your contention that the things I specified above are bad things?
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#280 written by Max 10 months ago
Mule,
“pedantic” indeed. Considering your post.
“ It’s obvious you’re not interested in an open and honest discussion.”, indeed. Considering that you are not, and have not, on this thread, “discussed” anything other than lame excuses, nothing on topic.
“ Otherwise your demeanor would more closely resemble . . .”, indeed. Again, considering you history of “demeanor”, a diversion. My demeanor will improve once y’all actually provoke honest debate. IE: prove my statements incorrect.
IOW: Quit whining and contribute some facts to the discussion.
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#281 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
Thanks for proving my point, Max. And it really takes the cake when you go off on an extended rant about things in extreme detail that are far removed from the comments I made initially and then start badgering someone to prove you wrong like you did with this little gem — “My demeanor will improve once y’all actually provoke honest debate. IE: prove my statements incorrect.”
I’ve determined this is a tact you employ because you rarely have anything substantive to say. You come in, blow up the parameters of the discussion, move the goalposts around, go on extended and detailed rants with “facts” supporting your position and make bold assumptions of others’ positions and rail about the “facts” missing from their argument, bellowing out demands that people play by YOUR rules and YOURS only, obfuscating the whole time so that when the dust finally settles after posts, anyone trying to participate and make an honest attempt at defending their position is so confused that they really don’t know what’s being discussed anymore.
I find it especially amusing that you lambast me for spouting opinions and whatnot and not having “facts” to back up the things I said above, yet you dogmatically declare that you KNOW for a FACT just how unions have influenced me and my life, even though you have never met me and have virtually ZERO knowledge about me except what I’ve shared on this board. Don’t ever preach to me about bringing facts to the table when you’re gonna start spouting some whopper-ass assertions about me and my life when you know NOTHING about me.
In any event, I’ve had it with that game. It’s tiresome and immature and not worthy of my time, so I won’t play it. You know, the whole wrestling with a pig proverb.
Save yourself some time in the future and steer very clear of me. I plan on giving you a wide berth as well. I will not respond to anything you say to me or about me, so feel free to waste keystrokes. It’s your life and your time. Spend it how you choose.
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#282 written by Max 10 months ago
Whine, whine whine. You do realize that is how you are coming across?
Perhaps you SHOULD pay attention when being preached to. That way you would understand that you may well be affected, even indirectly, in ways that you may not recognize.
Now, again, whenever you wish to get of your pedantic gig and return to the issues on the thread, I’ll be more than glad to as well.
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#283 written by GROG 10 months ago
DC,
Or is it your contention that the things I specified above are bad things?
No. My contention is to point out what Big Union stands for today, which is big money for the élites, power, and influence. They had a very important function at one time, but no longer. They’re a relic. A dinosaur. Today, the far left is just trying to cling to them for political positioning.
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#284 written by GROG 10 months ago
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@GROG… That’s not how Mule is coming across at all.
I agree. It seems to me that Muley is making an honest attempt to explain himself and his feelings about the issue. And when people do that, whether or not we agree with what they’re saying, I think they earn the right to be listened to with respect.Of course people on this boards have long, colorful histories with each other, making that a lot harder to do.
But still… GROG’s right.. Fair is fair.
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GROG,
My contention is to point out what Big Union stands for today, which is big money for the élites, power, and influence.
I’m personally acquainted with quite a few union officials at the local levels. While I can’t speak much to those at the national level, I can assure you that those at the local level care about none of those three things. They may well be misguided (they’re typically elected, and those that elect them look for ideological purity…sound familiar?), but their intentions are legitimate. I’m afraid you’re seeing a caricature, not the reality.
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#288 written by Max 10 months ago
Aww, hell y’all.
Enough with this mutual admiration society silliness!
Mule and I are like Ronnie and Tip: We’ll flog the hell outta each oter during the day, but he’s gonna take me to them Memphis blues clubs and I’m buying when ever I get over there.
It ain’t business after 5:00!
I’d even do the same for GROG, but they don’t have any decent clubs in Ohio! What DO they have in Ohio? -
What DO they have in Ohio?
Today “we” had Barack Hussein Obama on the stump. And not to brag
but turdblossom et al has made Ohio his/their ground zero in conservative billionaire undisclosed campaign $$$ hence, therefore, ergo ad nauseam campaign ads in Ohio.Hope “they” aren’t too disappointed when Obama wins Ohio and Sherrod Brown is re-elected.
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Speaking of unions, kasich got his butt kicked re: his union busting referendum.
btw, we used to have Lebron James before he took his talents to South Beach.
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Bottom line, I’m just “trying” to dig Max out of a deep hole!
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Oh yea, we also have a thriving auto industry thanx to Barack Hussein Obama!
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Mule, I was serious about the questions I asked in #269.
Putting aside the poison of croney capitalism (which we both agree is a bad thing), taking corporate interest purely as they are, dealing with unrestrained capitalism in its pure and most ideological (or idealistic, whichever you prefer) form:
Are you claiming that corporate employers never “defend people/processes that are destructive, inefficient, and regressive for society”?
Are you claiming that corporate employers have not ever contributed to the reason why “we haven’t had a timely response to some emergency situations”?
If these Bad Things are reason enough to oppose unions, are they not also reason enough to oppose corporate power?
Or is it only unions that do Bad Things?
I’m asking seriously. You took me to task for defending unions. Can you admit that corporations (and corporate interests and the monied élites and shareholders that support them) can be at least as destructive as unions — indeed, since they have more money to throw around to advance their interests (FAR more money, a couple of orders of magnitude more), they can more a great deal more destructive than unions?
Or are corporate interests All-Good?
I am serious about these questions. Have you an answer?
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DC,
I think the problem here is that you’re asking a series of questions as absolute. Mule doesn’t seem to treat much as absolutes, yet you’re treating the discussion as if he did. Or as if the questions raised by unions are answerable in absolute form.As a general rule, if you treat things as absolutes, there’s no room for nuance or moderation.
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#292 written by Max 10 months ago
Michael,
You may say that about dc’s questions, and that may absolve folks in that case. But can you say the same about the challenge I posed on single-payer, asking for any rational data based opposition, even if some data needed to be adjusted to be more equitable, all to no real response?
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As a general rule, if you treat things as absolutes, there’s no room for nuance or moderation.
I am challenging the absolutism that Mule and Grog have displayed in their attack on unions as being Bad Things, and their defense of corporate interests as being unreservedly Forces for Good.
I agree, an absolutist position is indefensible. Mule and Grog took me to task for defending unions. I agreed with them that unions are sometimes less than ideal. I am inviting them to do the same as regards corporate interests. Then, we can progress to underlining the things we agree are desirable in both unions and corporations.
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On a related note, Nixon and cheney/Bush also did bad things, so just like grog wants to get rid of unions, “we’ll” also have to get rid of the Republican party.
It’s a most equatable trade-off and would be totally in favor!
A+B=C
Yea, sayin’ someone or something did bad things is a very slippery slope indeed. Although absolutes do serve a purpose ie teabaggers and unfettered/inane hyperbole. And unfettered hyperbole leads us back to rgbact/shilohbuster et al.
>
ok, ok, since Eve forced Adam to eat that damn apple, god’s children have been doing some truly god awful things as related to the Bible and included in the Bible lol.
Hence, therefore, ergo the human race should be abolished! ie no more Higgs Boson particles.
Simple solution to every problem …
Unless one prefers to use nuance or as shilohbuster would say, weasel-worded.
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#295 written by Mule Rider 10 months ago
“I am challenging the absolutism that Mule and Grog have displayed in their attack on unions as being Bad Things, and their defense of corporate interests as being unreservedly Forces for Good.”
Sorry to give that impression, DC. I don’t mean to lambast unions as Bad Things, just point out that they do some bad things that are occasionally indefensible. And you’re absolutely right that corporate interests have serious flaws, at times, as well. I sure don’t mean to hold Corporate America up as a beacon of what’s good/right in this country.
I just want to note that this brouhaha took on new life after I essentially said I agreed with something Michael said. Granted, I made a follow-up post expounding on my thoughts a little bit, but iI find it odd that, as the rhetoric escalated, I became the main target of holding an “anti-union position” yet Michael’s original post was seemingly ignored. Sorry, but to me, it makes it seem like some of you are more interested in just having a mud-slinging, male anatomy-measuring contest across partisan lines than be reasonable and civil. I do appreciate your patience and respectfulness, though, DC. You’ve kept a cool head about you, and I appreciate that.
“Unless one prefers to use nuance or as shilohbuster would say, weasel-worded.
”I LOLed when I read this.….shiloh, you’re really an asset around here and I can appreciate your intelligence and wit.….but when you cross the line into scathing, bitter retorts, it’s much harder to appreciate what you write. Anyway, have a good day.
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#298 written by GROG 10 months ago
Max,
My opposition to single payer health care is based on the fact that, in the United States of America, I don’t believe it’s the role of the federal government to control an industry that makes up 20% of our economy. Perhaps it works in
Europe and Canada. I don’t believe it will work here.We spend way too much on health care for many reasons that can (and must) be fixed without socializing the entire industry. I don’t believe your two cherry picked metrics, infant mortality and life expectancy, are the two tell all signs that health care is the worst in the civilized world in the U.S. We have an outstanding health care system that costs way too much money. We can do better and we don’t need to socialize it to fix it.
Call that ideology if you like.
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@Michael,
You’re seeing something that’s not there. They have called unions “bad things” on balance, but I have yet to hear either of them say that unions provide nothing of value.
Then my questions about the comparative impact of unions and corporations should be easy for them to answer. (Though from what I’ve seen, both Mule and Grog seem to think the value of unions has pretty much expired. I don’t recall seeing either of them saying anything positive about the current incarnation of unions. They are free to correct me if I have a false impression.)
If indeed both unions and corporations both have good as well as bad aspects (which is how I feel about it), then let’s consider, on balance, how they rate relative to each other. Seeing as corporations have (as I pointed out) a great deal more money to use in influencing society, do unions or corporations pose a greater threat to our well-being or to the economic health of our nation? Which is in more need of adequate regulation?
I wonder too if Grog and Mule are content to let you answer for them. If so, you and I can have a conversation another day (Michael, I“ll let you have the last word here, if you want it). I want to see what Grog and Mule think.
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#300 written by GROG 10 months ago
I think unions were an important part of American history and they helped make this country what it is today. I don’t think they’re a bad thing at all. I still believe they can play an important role today, but more often than not, they don’t. I think members pay dues that go to make a small number of union bosses very, very rich while members are getting laid off, and too often use those dues to buy political power.
And like Mule, I certainly don’t hold up corporations as being a beacon of all that’s good. They have serious flaws at times, as do unions.
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About Michael Weiss (323 posts)
Michael is a jack of many trades, and master of a few. His varied background includes government and private businesses, both large and small. His experience in the financial services and computer industries has led him to computer security.







Shortchain,
Maybe this will give you some insight.
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Kathryn_Serkes
From this information, and the lack of any open study methodology or a look at the questions or study population, I think the phrase res ipsa loquitur applies.