Threading the Needle
Ever since the Supreme Court heard oral arguments on the constitutionality of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA, “Obamacare”) individual mandate, pundits have been predicting that the mandate is dead. The remaining question would then be: will the Supreme Court find the law severable, that is, can the mandate be ruled unconstitutional but the rest of the law stands? Or does the whole thing go down because of an unacceptable mandate?
The Supreme Court finally answered today. By a five-to-four vote (Justices Breyer, Ginsburg, Kagan, and Sotomayor dissenting), the individual mandate was technically struck down as a violation of the Commerce Clause, but by a different five-to-four vote (Justices Alito, Kennedy, Scalia, and Thomas dissenting) the fine for being uninsured was not. In that regard, the Court threaded the needle, objecting to the “illegality” of being uninsured, while leaving the relevant penalty in the Act unchanged.
This decision is certainly a huge win for the Obama administration at first blush. But it may prove to be less of a win for Obama himself.
I’ll explain that in greater detail in a bit, but first let’s examine what just happened.
The mandate took on the form of revisions to section 5000A(a) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986. From Chapter 48 of PPACA (section breaks and designators removed):
If a taxpayer who is an applicable individual, or an applicable individual for whom the taxpayer is liable … fails to meet the requirement … for 1 or more months, then, [barring an acceptable exception] there is hereby imposed on the taxpayer a penalty.
Subsection (a) sets the requirements for an acceptable health plan:
The term ‘minimum essential coverage’ means any of the following:
GOVERNMENT SPONSORED PROGRAMS.—Coverage under the Medicare program … the Medicaid program … the CHIP program .… TRICARE … veteran’s health care program, or a health plan [for] Peace Corps volunteers.
EMPLOYER-SPONSORED PLAN.—Coverage under an eligible employer-sponsored plan.PLANS IN THE INDIVIDUAL MARKET.—Coverage under a health plan offered in the individual market within a State.
GRANDFATHERED HEALTH PLAN.—Coverage under a grandfathered health plan.
OTHER COVERAGE.—Such other health benefits coverage, such as a State health benefits risk pool, as the Secretary of Health and Human Services … recognizes for purposes of this subsection.
The Court concluded that the “shared responsibility payment” charged to those who do not have medical coverage does, in fact, amount to a tax. And there is a long history of taxes being attached to people’s behaviors, such that they can change behavior to avoid a tax. Since Congress has the authority to impose taxes, that makes the mandate constitutional.
The Court’s decision to not permit the law under the Commerce and Necessary & Proper Clauses lays an important precedent. It is, in essence, a shot across the bow of Congress to warn that coercion through taxation may be fine, but not mandating behavior with stronger force, such as criminality.
In any case, because the mandate-as-tax was upheld, severability became moot.
The pundits felt, based on oral arguments, that the mandate was a dead letter. This is reflected in the Intrade betting market on the death of the individual mandate, starting with oral arguments on March 27:
Before oral arguments, the consensus was that the mandate had about a 50 percent chance of survival. After the news of the oral arguments settled in, with CNN’s analyst Jeffrey Toobin making a strong case for the death of the mandate:
This still looks like a train wreck for the Obama administration, and it may also be a plane wreck. This entire law is now in serious trouble. It also seems that the individual mandate is doomed. I mean, Anthony Kennedy spent much of this morning talking about if we strike down the individual mandate, how should we handle the rest of the law? Now, it is less clear that they are going to strike down the whole law. There does seem to be some controversy in the court about that. Certainly there are some members of the court — Antonin Scalia, Justice Alito — who want to strike down the entire law, but it seemed almost a foregone conclusion today that they were going to strike down the individual mandate, and the only question is does the whole law go out the window with it?
After Toobin’s words sunk in, the markets pushed the percentage chance up to 60⁄40. The buzz around the death of the mandate meme grew, so that by the day before the decision, the chance was 80⁄20. In this case, the pundits were right.
Other court observers, such as SCOTUSblog’s Amy Howe, were more sanguine about the chances for the mandate’s survival. She wrote at the time:
With several Justices apparently dubious of the government’s arguments, two exchanges toward the end of Carvin’s argument stood out as potentially helpful to the government and may have given at least a glimmer of hope to the mandate’s supporters. The first came from Justice Elena Kagan, who asked Carvin whether he might have an easier argument if he weren’t arguing that the mandate is always unconstitutional, but instead that the mandate is at least unconstitutional as it applies to specific people (for example, Christian Scientists) who clearly were not going to be a part of the health care market and, by declining to buy insurance, would not incur health care costs that would be shifted to the rest of us. That line of reasoning might provide the Court with a way to uphold the mandate generally, while leaving open the possibility that individuals who object to the mandate could still challenge it.
The second, and possibly even more important, comment came from Justice Anthony Kennedy, a key swing vote on the Court. Justice Kennedy appeared to voice some sympathy for the government’s argument that the health care market is “unique.” Even if a healthy young person without insurance may not need health care in a particular time period, he reasoned, that young person will nonetheless be “very close” to having an effect on insurance rates – for example, on the theory that, as he ages, he will eventually need care that he can’t afford without insurance – in a way that just doesn’t happen in other markets.
In this case, Justice Kennedy came down on the side of the unconstitutionality of the mandate, which was predicted by his musings in response to Solicitor General Verrelli’s argument:
But the reason, the reason this is concerning, is because it requires the individual to do an affirmative act. In the law of torts our tradition, our law, has been that you don’t have the duty to rescue someone if that person is in danger. The blind man is walking in front of a car and you do not have a duty to stop him absent some relation between you. And there is some severe moral criticisms of that rule, but that’s generally the rule.
And here the government is saying that the Federal Government has a duty to tell the individual citizen that it must act, and that is different from what we have in previous cases and that changes the relationship of the Federal Government to the individual in the very fundamental
Yet, in a surprise move, Kennedy was not the swing vote in this decision; Roberts was.
The only restriction of substance to come out of this decision was a warning that the federal government may not withhold Medicare funds to states that are in compliance with the law as it existed prior to the PPACA.
As I said above, this decision looks like a huge win for the Obama administration, yet not necessarily for Obama.
To be sure, for those who understand what it means to be subject to annual and lifetime caps, and restrictions on coverage for preexisting conditions, this is clearly a big win for all of us. But most Americans are blithely unaware that there are issues with preexisting conditions. After all, a majority get their coverage through their employers, and employer-supplied coverage rarely excludes preexisting conditions in the first place. And for those whose policies do exclude preexisting conditions, a relatively small percentage of them ever find themselves in need of treatment for one. The same can be said for lifetime caps. Few people know that they’re there, and fewer still realize how easy it is to bump into those restrictions.
So, while it benefits those who don’t yet know they’ll need it, most Americans won’t even notice the preexisting condition and lifetime cap changes.
Furthermore, many Americans are woefully ignorant about the very existence of the law. Nearly a quarter of Americans polled in February believed that the PPACA had already been repealed. With the significant press surrounding today’s ruling, the number who today believed that it had been repealed prior to February is most likely significantly lower. Nonetheless, this points to upcoming political posturing from the Republicans.
Expect to hear for the next several months that the oh-so-unpopular Obamacare is still around, and won’t go away until Obama goes away. This will still be a somewhat difficult postition for Republican Presidential candidate Mitt Romney to take, since it will require that spend time defending his earlier actions with respect to Romneycare.
And that messaging will put Democrats on the defensive. As should be abundantly clear by now, when it comes to messaging, Democrats lose the messaging battle whenever nuance enters into the equation. Yet the response must necessarily be nuanced: “Yes, the mandate remains, but the lifetime caps and preexisting condition coverage go along with that.” Yeah, that fits on a bumper sticker just fine, doesn’t it?
The decision, then, hands a campaigning gift to the Republican Party, and provides to them a rallying cry of “Defeat Obama to Defeat Obamacare!”
In the end, then, we’re left with the realization that both sides got something they wanted. Democrats got the policy, and Republicans got messaging for this year’s campaigns. Just as with Arizona v. United States earlier this week, you can be sure Republicans will walk away declaring victory, even when the reality is exactly the opposite. And it seems that a substantial percentage of Americans will believe them.
Related articles
- Poll: Americans don’t like Obamacare, but love what’s in it (americablog.com)

This entry was posted by Michael Weiss on June 28, 2012 at 8:15 am, and is filed under Breaking News, Supreme Court Watch. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0.You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.
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Grog,
Thanks for your response. I agree that power tends to corrupt, and to the extent that unions leaders have power, that tends to lead to a desire to maintain their position.
To me, the most improtant role that unions continue to play is as a check on what I see as far greater and more corrosive corporate power. As far as union leaders getting rich while unions members are laid off — clearly, union leaders have an interest in helping union members keep their jobs. Otherwise, the dues stop coming in.
Further, unions tend to be (not always, it’s true) more interested in the welfare of the workers than corporations are. By design, unions are more democratic than corporations — unions have elections, and decide things through votes (no, the process is not perfect, and yes, it can be perverted). Corporations, on the other hand, seldom make decisions based on the desires and preferences of the workers (ask any worker who got laid off when the operation moved to China).
The purpose of corporations is to make money for the shareholders. The purpose of unions is to support the needs and well-being of wokers. No, neither is perfect. It seems to me the scales are weighted heavily in favor of corporate power, and I’m pleased that there are organizations that at least try to look out for the common people.
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GROG,
more often than not, they don’t
It’s not at all clear to me that this is the case. All I ever hear is anecdotal evidence…and, as we know, the plural of “anecdote” is not “data”.
too often use those dues to buy political power
It seems to me that, if political power is being bought by corporations, it’s pretty much a necessity for political power to similarly be bought by unions. In absence of this, you end up with events like Homestead. Am I missing something?
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cross the line into scathing, bitter retorts
Please define scathing and bitter? ie if someone responded like a like a stark raving lunatic using the “F” bomb multiple times to the point of nonsensical, childish jibberish, it “might” be considered scathing/bitter.
Again, as long as you’re payin’ attention to my every word. Consistency being such an elusive concept …
take care
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#305 written by GROG 10 months ago
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#306 written by GROG 10 months ago
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#307 written by shortchain 10 months ago
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I don’t have a problem with workers banding together to get the benefits they can. That’s the whole point of democracy. In fact, that’s the point of capitalism.
I most particularly support public sector unions. A democratic government should be formed around democratic principles (even in a democratic republic). If the government of a democracy cannot be a model of its own principles, then it has no moral authority.
The public sector should, in my opinon, stand as an example to the private sector. I see no reason to ask workers to give up their rights simply because they choose to serve the interests of The People.
The idea that “I dont ‘want my tax dollars going to someone else’s benefit package” seems, to me, shortsighted, mean-sprited, selfish, and in direct opposition to the idea of a “nation.” As citizens of the United States, we all have a vested interest in seeing to the health and well-being of other citizens. We all do better when we all do better.
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DC,
I don’t have a problem with workers banding together to get the benefits they can.
Nor do I, absent any additional information on the scenario.
In fact, that’s the point of capitalism.
Au contraire. That’s the point of corporate trusts in the Standard Oil model. Some of the key purposes of a union are to fix output, prices, and market share of labor. That’s what Standard Oil did as well, though to fix output, prices, and market share of oil, instead of labor. Monopolistic behaviors are a potential result of unfettered capitalism, but they are certainly not the point of capitalism.
And therein lies the key problem with public sector unions…and any unions that cover the labor of a monopoly. Any monopoly of a good or service without readily accessible substitutes has near absolute price control. Allow me to provide an example:
Let’s say that a city’s fire department union demanded that the firefighters work no more than one day per month, and each be paid a million dollars per year, with paid vacation days and a pension that gave them full medical and 125% of their maximum salary, plus inflation adjustments, for the rest of their lives, assuming they retired after the age of 45. And, barring the city accepting this deal, they’d cease to work. What are the city’s residents’ options? Do they go without a firefighting service? Or do they pay the protection racket? They don’t get the option of picking the firefighting company next door to the extorting ones; there is a monopoly for these services.
Compare that to goods or services for which there are substitutes. If unions demand too much of an automobile manufacturer, the labor costs render the cars too expensive, and people can opt to either buy less frequently or buy from someone else. This provides a check on unions overdemanding.
The problem with public sector unions, then, is not that they’re public sector per se, but rather that they serve monopolies.
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Michael, it is possible to create over-the-top “What If?” scenarios for any possible human activity. What you describe is not so much “a problem with public employee unions” as it is an interesting exercise in how to make something look silly.
Since no public employee union has tried such a thing, I’m not worried about it. I enjoy reading Stephen King, but I don’t confuse his horror novels with reality. The public outcry against the sort of abuses you describe would prevent it from ever happening. Cripes, look at the outcry now, the way public workers are being scapegoated simply because Republicans need someone to blame for deficits other than the wealthy élites who got tax cuts.
Again, I see no reason to ask workers to give up rights such as collective bargaining, simply because they are devoting their lives in service to the nation. Public workers need protections from predatory employers just as much as private sector workers do.
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DC,
it is possible to create over-the-top “What If?” scenarios for any possible human activity
I’m afraid you’re missing the point. Perhaps this will help you to see why.
I see no reason to ask workers to give up rights such as collective bargaining, simply because they are devoting their lives in service to the nation
You’re still missing the point there. It’s not because they’re working for the government; it’s because they’re working for a monopoly. That the monopoly happens to be government is merely a coincidence.
Public workers need protections from predatory employers
Isn’t the government “We the People”, as you keep pointing out? And thus, if these people are employed by the government, that means they are employed by “We the People”, which includes you the person. So you’re admitting to being a predatory employer now?
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It’s not because they’re working for the government; it’s because they’re working for a monopoly.
The effect is the same.
I don’t want people who work for monopolies to give up their rights, either, so I don’t find the argument convincing. Once we properly regulate businesses, we can worry about regulating unions.
Isn’t the government “We the People”, as you keep pointing out? And thus, if these people are employed by the government, that means they are employed by “We the People”, which includes you the person. So you’re admitting to being a predatory employer now?
Looking at what’s happening in Wisconsin and Michigan, yes. This is why we need strong public unions. We see what happens when we don’t have them.
We the People can be pretty stupid and short-sighted and self-centered sometimes. I never claimed We the People are all-wise. We elected Nixon and Reagan twice each — and enough of The People voted for G. W. Bush twice that he had a credible claim to being president. So clearly, The People can be pretty dumb.
Again, this is precisely why public workers need a strong union.
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Oh, to address the question of personal responsibility as part of We the People …
Yes. We each bear part of the responsibility. For me, that’s part of why I vote and why I write for a political blog — among other reasons, to do what I can to help mitigate the predatory aspects of our political system.
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#315 written by shortchain 10 months ago
Michael,
So — it’s unheard-of that a majority of people might oppress a minority?Seems to me there’s an obvious set of solutions to the problems with public-sector unions:
1. Strikes of workers in areas of public safety (as determined by a process subject to judicial review) are carefully regulated.
2. Public unions are forbidden from campaign activities as unions. (You shouldn’t prevent individuals from donating or going door-to-door.)As for me, I’d require the same for any corporation doing business with the government — which would include essentially all businesses, foreign and domestic. In fact, I’d forbid corporations from giving money to any “advocacy” organization. This would require a lot of organizations to split out their advocacy division as a separate organization, which IMO, would be a good thing. You’d know where your money is going when you give them some.
I don’t know why we have to forbid collective bargaining when what we really want is to prevent organizations from engaging in political activity.
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#316 written by mclever 10 months ago
I agree with shortchain in #315.
Forbidding advocacy by corporations or unions would solve a lot of the concerns about unions engaging in political activity as unions, which seems to be the real concern of most objections to unions.
Requiring groups to split advocacy into a separate organization would also help remove some of the obfuscation of where donations to organizations really go.
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DC,
The effect is the same.
Sure, but motive is important, as one can clearly see from the myriad laws regarding death at the hands of another. You ascribing to me a particular motive that I don’t possess becomes a strawman argument then, and a waste of everyone’s time.
I don’t want people who work for monopolies to give up their rights
“Rights” in this case is an overloaded term, and one that can imply that the right to collectively bargain is on par with the right to peaceably assemble. Given that only one of those two is contained within the Constitution, I caution you not to conflate rights with RIGHTS.
I don’t want employees of monopolies to be punished for working for monopolies, but businesses take the path of least resistance in the same way that people do, because the businesses are run by people. It takes far less effort to demand more money from the customers than to demand concessions from employees. What holds the price increases back in most markets is competition. In a monopoly, the lack of competition means that the path of least resistance is higher prices, not lower wages. For this reason, the need for unions as protection becomes substantially reduced in a monopoly.
Yet, at the same time, a union in a monopoly can take advantage of that same low-resistance path to demand significantly higher compensation than they would receive in a competitive sector. The employer has less incentive to fight it, since it’s easier to merely pass those higher costs onto the consumers. This is what happens in regulated monopolies today.
In other words, the conditions of monopolies are different, and so the rest of the rules governing monopolies must also be different.
Once we properly regulate businesses, we can worry about regulating unions.
This is a tremendous copout. It allows you to spend the rest of your days claiming that businesses aren’t properly regulated, and therefore unions should remain unregulated. Why not also suggest that law enforcement shouldn’t bother enforcing a single law other than murder until every unsolved murder case is solved? A balanced approach is appropriate; regulate both.
Looking at what’s happening in Wisconsin and Michigan, yes. This is why we need strong public unions. We see what happens when we don’t have them.
You mean, we end up with public compensation packages looking more like their private counterparts? Perish the thought! My objection to what happened in Wisconsin and Michigan is not about weakening public sector unions, but about how it was done. If the legislature can’t get it done by following the law, then the legislature shouldn’t do it at all.
We the People can be pretty stupid and short-sighted and self-centered sometimes.
And We the Unions (who, as you noted, are merely a subset of We the People) can’t? I fail to see how that follows.
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shortchain,
it’s unheard-of that a majority of people might oppress a minority?
Not at all. I merely wanted to understand if DC was claiming that government employees need to be protected from DC.
I don’t know why we have to forbid collective bargaining when what we really want is to prevent organizations from engaging in political activity.
I explained it above with respect to monopolies. That’s really the only place where I see collective bargaining as something that can be unbalanced with respect to the parties involved. My motivation there has nothing to do with political activity (though that’s an interesting discussion to have). Rather, it has everything to do with the balance between employer and employee.
In regulated monopolies (the only kind that’s legal in the US), we could easily have the FTC regulate employer behavior as a sort of neutral arbitrator, which would likely be a more efficient approach than the adversarial system of unions we have in place today.
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#319 written by shortchain 10 months ago
Michael,
I don’t share your trust that, if public unions were totally abolished, the FTC would be useful in protecting the workers. I look at what’s happened to the FEC, the FCC, and other commissions which supposedly act in the public interest, and just don’t see why it would not be child’s play for the leviathan of modern business to co-opt the FTC and make it a kind of external “human resources” department. -
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#321 written by shortchain 10 months ago
Michael,
Excuse me, but you may be forgetting the “revolving door” which separates modern industry and government. I used to work for a government contractor, and they hired most of their project managers from the military. They also had a Political Action Committee, which they called the “Good Government Fund” which was dedicated to supporting candidates who would throw money in their direction and which anybody wishing to rise through the company ranks had to donate to (irony suffered a mortal wound the day they named the PAC).
In the case of the Bush Interior Department, you are right, the government employees weren’t like fellow employees of their private industry fellows — most companies have rules against people sleeping with people they have to do business with…
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#323 written by shortchain 10 months ago
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#324 written by Max 10 months ago
Has ANYBODY read through Ginsburg’s opinion? It is an excellent counter to some of the rather wishy washy Robert’s opinion.
All y’all may have noticed that I have not participated in the last 80 or so comments over the past 2–3 days. Since about #238, when GROG drove off into the weeds with his comment about teachers (WTF has teachers salary’s to do with the PPACA?), this thread has had NOTHING to do with the SCOTUS decision.
It is what it is, I guess.
But the empirical evidence is that any discussion of healthcare, the validity of segments of a national healthcare policy, was ran off the rails
Thread the needle? Hell, we’re no longer even in the sewing room!
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#325 written by GROG 10 months ago
Max,
Since about #238, when GROG drove off into the weeds with his comment about teachers (WTF has teachers salary’s to do with the PPACA?)
If you go back and follow the thread with an open mind, you should notice that it was not me who first brought up teachers’ pay. My comment in 238 was a response to a question posed to me about teachers’ pay.
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#326 written by Max 10 months ago
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#327 written by GROG 10 months ago
Max,
But the empirical evidence is that any discussion of healthcare, the validity of segments of a national healthcare policy, was ran off the rails
I stated earlier that I reject your claim that Canada’s single payer system is superior to our American system. You have evidenced your statement by citing infant mortality, life expentancy, and cost.
As I’ve stated repeatedly, infant mortality and life expentancy are poor measures of the quality of a nation’s health care system. Life expentancy include factors such as violent crime, automobile accidents, obesity, diet, and drug, alcohol, and tobacco use which are unrelated to health care.
The U.S. measures infant mortality differently than any other country who claims lower infant death rates making that statistic highly problematic. Micheal Moore enjoys citing Cuba’s low infant mortality rate as proof that Cuba has a better health care systme than the U.S., but he fails to acknowledge that Cuba has one of the world’s highest abortion rates. More babies in Cuba with health problems are aborted before ever being brought to term.
In the United States, low birth weight babies have a greater chance of being brought to term, but many alos die before their first birthday, increasing our infant mortality rate.
Let’s stop with those stats as evidence that our health care system sucks.
The United States has 3 times more MRI’s and CT scanners per capita than Canada. Canada constantly battles wait times for medical procedures due to socialized healthcare. http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/peter-roff/2009/07/28/statistics-show-canada-healthcare-is-inferior-to-american-system
The United States beats Europe and Canada soundly in cancer survial rates, according the the British journal Lancet Oncology.…
- American women have a 63 percent chance of living at least five years after a cancer diagnosis, compared to 56 percent for European women. [See Figure I.]
- American men have a five-year survival rate of 66 percent — compared to only 47 percent for European men.
- Among European countries, only Sweden has an overall survival rate for men of more than 60 percent.
- For women, only three European countries (Sweden, Belgium and Switzerland) have an overall survival rate of more than 60 percent.
These figures reflect the care available to all Americans, not just those with private health coverage. Great Britain, known for its 50-year-old government-run, universal health care system, fares worse than the European average: British men have a five-year survival rate of only 45 percent; women, only 53 percent.
Results for Canada. Canada’s system of national health insurance is often cited as a model for the United States. But an analysis of 2001 to 2003 data by June O’Neill, former director of the Congressional Budget Office, and economist David O’Neill, found that overall cancer survival rates are higher in the United States than in Canada: 3
- For women, the average survival rate for all cancers is 61 percent in the United States, compared to 58 percent in Canada.
- For men, the average survival rate for all cancers is 57 percent in the United States, compared to 53 percent in Canada.
I reject this notion that our health care system is in any way inferior to that of Canada or Europe.
- American women have a 63 percent chance of living at least five years after a cancer diagnosis, compared to 56 percent for European women. [See Figure I.]
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#328 written by Max 10 months ago
GROG,
You are simply repeating your earlier assertions. I summarily reject your “US News” source as valid. As it contains in the first paragraph a condition not true (government subsidized). Numerous polls of Canadians show an approval rate in excess of 90% of their own system, more than that of US citizens. And I’ll repeat: of the MANY Canadians with whom I have spoken directly, NOT ONE would trade theirs for ours.
I have stated why infant mortality and life expectancy are valid measuring sticks. You are saying “no” because one country uses English units and some others use metric, so to speak. If you wish to challenge, then you should be able to find data that would allow for proper adjustments (unit conversions, so to speak.).
Then we can talk again.
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GROG,
There’s a key flaw in the NCPA argument, and it’s one that Monotreme can probably discuss better than I can. The “five year survival rate” statistic covers the time from diagnosis to death, not from cancer onset to death. This means that earlier diagnosis with zero change in the time from onset to death would make for a better five year survival rate, but wouldn’t change outcomes in a way that would be meaningful to any human with the disease. -
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MW,
A couple days late, I missed the earlier comment.
Sure, but motive is important, as one can clearly see from the myriad laws regarding death at the hands of another. You ascribing to me a particular motive that I don’t possess becomes a strawman argument then, and a waste of everyone’s time.
I’m not assigning any motive to you. I’m saying that taking away the right of collective bargaining harms the people who keep things running. I don’t care what the motive is.
In other words, the conditions of monopolies are different, and so the rest of the rules governing monopolies must also be different.
Yes, I understood your point. I disagree. The rights of the workers are more important, and so is the symbolism of government repressing those rights for the workers it hires. This establishes a very bad precident for the private sector to follow.
It allows you to spend the rest of your days claiming that businesses aren’t properly regulated, and therefore unions should remain unregulated
Yout argument allows you to do the opposite. Don’t assign motive to me either.
My objection to what happened in Wisconsin and Michigan is not about weakening public sector unions, but about how it was done.
My objection is for both reasons. After all it was done the way it was because they wanted to accomplish something unsavory,and this was the only way they could do it.
We’ll just have to disagree.
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#332 written by GROG 10 months ago
Max,
You are simply repeating your earlier assertions.
Because you keep repeating your assertion that no one is willing to discuss single payer versus the U.S. system.
I have stated why infant mortality and life expectancy are valid measuring sticks.
They are not valid measuring sticks.
You are saying “no” because one country uses English units and some others use metric, so to speak.
No, I’m saying “no” because one country says a foot equals 12 inches and some others say a foot equals 16 inches.
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Grog,
Do you suppose there is a reason why every other industrialized nation has gone from a system of for-profit health care and for-profit insurance to a system of more-or-less (some more, some less) universal-single-payer? Is there a reason why not one industrialized nation has gone the other way, from a system unlike ours to a system approaching ours?
Is it because we are wealthier and can therefore afford the best, whereas everyone else must be satisfied with reasonable-quality universal care that everyone can actually afford?
Why does no other industrialized nation on Earth try to be more like us in regards to delivering and paying for health care? Why, in fact, do they all try to be less like us? Do you suppose there’s a reason for that?
Is it because no one else wants health care as good as ours?
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#334 written by GROG 10 months ago
DC,
I don’t know. But perhaps you should ask Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi why he went to the Cleveland Clinic for heart surgery. Or why Canadian Human Resources Minister Belinda Stronach went to California for breast cancer treatment. Or why Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams went to Mount Sanai in Florida to have a heart valve repaired.
I don’t want to speak for them, but I would guess it’s because the U.S. provides the best medical care in the world.
Perhaps no other country wants our system because they would rather ride our coattails. Who else would produce 18 of the past 25 Nobel Peace winners in medicine in not for the U.S.? Who else would develop the majority of all new medicines in the world as well as non-pharma medical advances in the world?
Sure it costs a lot of money. Let the country with those evil profit seeking capitalists worry about that stuff while the rest of the world benefits. Makes sense to me.
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#335 written by Max 10 months ago
GROG,
Once again I must tell you that I don’t like it when people restate my comments differently from what I said, particularly so they can avoid my argument.
I NEVER said “discuss” single payer. Look it up and come back when you are ready to deal with the argument as stated.
No, I’m saying “no” because one country says a foot equals 12 inches and some others say a foot equals 16 inches.
OK, then. The conversion factor is that 48″ in one country is 4′ and 3′ in another. Now we can deal with any distance and length question and the solutions are simple. Thanks for admitting that.
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Grog, you’re evading the question, and you’re repeating a false and useless meme. How many American citizens can afford to go to Cleveland Clinic for heart surgery? It doesn’t matter how good they are, if Silvio Berlusconi and his friends are the only one who can afford them. Your argument is senseless.
I bet Silvio Berlusconi drives a Porche, too. That doesn’t mean everyone can get one.
It doesn’t matter if there are élite hospitals here that no one except the super-wealthy can afford. That doesn’t mean we’ve got “the best health care.” It means the super-wealthy get anything they want. (And notice: Silvio Berlusconi did NOT pay for his trip with an American insurance policy.)
The question is — why aren’t Italian citizens insisting on American-style health care and health insurance? The answer is pretty clear. We suck at it.
I ask you again. Why are the citizens of no other nation on earth clamoring to get American-style insurance companies and American-style health care delivery?
Perhaps no other country wants our system because they would rather ride our coattails.
Really? Common citizens would rather pay thousands of dollars to travel here than to have their own doctors do everyday medical care? Nonsense. I’ve never seen someone from Germany or France or Sweden or Japan come here for their annual checkup. And the only people who come here for heart surgery don’t use HealthPartners.
You’ll have to do better than that. No one wants American-style insurance or everyday health care, or even emergency health care. Yeah, we got some good facilities for specialized chronic treatment — but that’s not the same thing, and you know it.
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#337 written by GROG 10 months ago
Why are the citizens of no other nation on earth clamoring to get American-style insurance companies and American-style health care delivery?More medical and parmaceutical innovation occurs in the United States than the entire world combined. We’ve produced more Nobel Peace prize winners over the past 25 years than the rest of the world combined.
Why would a European want to pay health insurance when they can get free shit from their government? Those people are entrenched in their socialism, while our free market, profit based health care is the world’s leading medical innovator. What happens when we go to socialized medicine (which we will) like Canada and Europe? Who will lead the in pharmaceutical and medical innovation then?
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#338 written by Max 10 months ago
“… when they can get free shit from their government? Those people are entrenched in their socialism,. . .“
Ahhhh, now the truth comes out at last! With NO fact based argument, the only thing remaining is to admit it’s ideological! Thanks GROG for your admission.
Because a citizen pays TAXES instead of PREMIUMS in MOST countries of the world does not make that country “socialist”. And paying TAXES instead of PREMIUMS means it ain’t FREE SHIT! One is STILL paying for their medical care! Just EXACTLY like paying TAXES instead of TOLLS for driving on a road does not mean one gets a free ride!
Damn it! This ain’t rocket science! If GROG (et al.) would quit hiding behind their lack of facts with ideology, they would begin to understand that simple concept.
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More medical and parmaceutical innovation occurs in the United
States than the entire world combined. We’ve produced more Nobel
Peace prize winners over the past 25 years than the rest of the world
combined.Which means exactly what for whether people can afford good health care?
Why would a European want to pay health insurance when they can get free shit from their government?
Because they can’t “get free shit from their government”. Who do you think pays for that “shit”? Where does the money come from?
I’ll tell you where. No, the Republican Party will tell you where. Conservatives keep complaining that everyone’s taxes will go up if we have universal health care. Are they right? Do citizens actually pay for universal health care? Or do they get “free shit”?
Make an argument one way or the other. Either they pay for it and they like it — or they get “free shit” that Republicans are denying to Americans. Which is it?
Those people are entrenched in their socialism, while our free market, profit based health care is the world’s leading medical innovator.
… while making Americans go broke and pay more than anyone else pays, for less desirable outcomes. I’m not impressed. If we’re so damn good, why doesn’t anyone else want to be like us?
What happens when we go to socialized medicine (which we will) like Canada and Europe?
Americans get healthier and it costs less.
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#340 written by Max 10 months ago
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#342 written by Max 10 months ago
Sorry, dc, but, with respect, you seem to be confused on the matter.
The 2nd Amendment cannot be “repealed”. It DOES NOT grant rights.
“the right of the people, to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed”The right to bear arms is one preceding the Constitution, and the 2nd recognizes that fact. As such, it goes on to state, that preexisting right shall not be infringed.
Do you truly wish to go on the record as supporting abolition of a natural right. Do you wish to step foot on THAT slippery slope? What would be next? Press? Speech? Jury trial? Assembly? Look at the times that efforts in that direction have been attempted.
I do NOT want that. I have no problem with reasonable regulations, just as we have with the others. To be able to carry a weapon outside my “castle”, I have no problem with being required to demonstrate proficiency and to be trained in the laws concerning the legal uses and the consequences. I have no problem with restricting the KINDS of weapons above those needed for reasonable self defense. But to try to abolish a Constitutionally recognized natural right that preceded the Constitution itself? No way, no how, ain’t happening.
And just as with any of our rights recognized by the Constitution, you, as a free citizen, can choose for yourself, how, and even if, you wish to utilize that right.
Which is why I believe that you are completely wrong on that position of “repeal”.
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Max,
The 2nd Amendment cannot be “repealed”.
Of course it can. It is an amendment (i.e., a “change”) to the Constitution. It can be repealed, in the same way the 18th was repealed by the 21st. All it would take is an additional Amendment that says, “Militias being no longer necessary to the security of free states, the Second Amendment is hereby repealed. Congress may make any law necessary to regulate deadly arms in any way it deems proper.”
It’s not a problem in any respect.
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By the way, Max — “natural right”? Really? No one missed that, in quoting only part of the Second Amendment, you left out the portion that explains why the right to bear arms was granted to the people.
Was there a reason you left out the justification for this artificial right to be granted? Do you really think that justification still holds?
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#345 written by GROG 10 months ago
Max,
Ahhhh, now the truth comes out at last! With NO fact based argument, the only thing remaining is to admit it’s ideological! Thanks GROG for your admission.
I’m afraid you missed my point and I’m sorry you missed all the facts I’ve provided. My point about being entrenched in socialism refers to the ideology of Europeans, not mine. It’s not surprising that a European prefers a system in which their government takes care of their needs versus our market based system where individuals are responsible for their own health care needs. It’s how Europeans have been conditioned for generations.
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#346 written by Max 10 months ago
It can be repealed, in the same way the 18th was repealed by the 21st.
No, my friend. First, the 18th TOOK AWAY a “privilege”, not a natural right. Then the 21st reëstablished that privilege. So, I ask you once again, once you step foot on that slippery slope, once you set that precedent because there has NEVER been a natural right confirmed by the Constitution removed, what is going to be your argument when your political opponents decide they will use the same path you have just blazed to remove your right to free speech, or to vote, or …?
Your opinion is that this is a “granted” right”. Again, I challenge that position. There is NOTHING in the language of the 2nd that says the Constitution GRANTS that right. Compare the language of the 2nd with that of the 6th, or the 14th, for example.
And I did purposely leave out the first clauses of the 2nd, as they had no bearing. Again, the relevant words are “the right of the people”. When one includes the first clauses, then one has the legal justification for the reasonable regulations as I mentioned above in #342, as the clause affirmatively states that the right is not absolute. Something the NRA does not seem to recognize.
But we digress once again from the basis of this thread. Perhaps you would write an article that would give your full justification for such an unprecedented infringement on basic American rights. Then we could debate in full the issue.
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GROG,
Sadly, you are conflating several different things.
The minor error is that the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine is distinct from the Nobel Peace Prize. Still, we all knew what you meant and the rest of what you say is correct.
The United States has been (note use of perfect past tense) a world leader in innovation in the basic sciences underlying medicine. This is primarily because of the National Institutes of Health and National Science Foundation, two governmental entities who grant Federal discretionary money to scientists willing to compete for the pool of money in a peer-reviewed process. This was set up by Vannevar Bush in the immediate post-war era and is probably a socialist system by your definition.
This money has been subjected to two stressors which will likely kill future innovations.
1) The pool of scientists has expanded exponentially while the money has increased geometrically. At the present time, less than 1 in 10 grants submitted to the National Institutes of Health is being funded. As every single one of these grants requires significant person-hours to prepare, and is vetted by the host institution’s scientists, virtually every single one of the 91% that don’t get funded is meritorious (I know, because I used to write, and review, them.) More and more scientists are discouraged and just giving up. (I know, because after producing dozens of papers and book chapters, and struggling to get funding for my work, I was one of those who gave up.)
2) The country is out of discretionary funds. NIH and NSF will likely be cut in any permutation of fiscal responsibility we can imagine.
Big-name individuals go to the United States for health care for the same reason they buy Hermes scarves and Gucci bags. Check your Thorstein Veblen. A Gucci bag is only slightly better than a Wal-Mart bag, but it costs several hundred times more because you’re paying a premium for conspicuous consumption.
Arguing that the popularity of consumer goods = quality is inaccurate. Even arguing that popularity α quality is inaccurate. What Max, I, and others have been arguing is that the 18% of GDP we spend on health care is only marginally better (if that) than the 9% Canadians spend on health care. A marginal increase in quality (and a huge increase in prestige, like the Gucci bag) for a doubling of price is no bargain.
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No, my friend. First, the 18th TOOK AWAY a “privilege”, not a natural right.
I don’t see it as a “natural right.” The wording of the Second clearly states the reason for the right being granted. If that reason no longer applies, the right is unneeded.
And I did purposely leave out the first clauses of the 2nd, as they had no bearing.
Of course they have a bearing, otherwise they wouldn’t be there.
But you’re right, we’re drifting way off-topic.
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Mono,
I was trying to think of a good way to make the argument, that much of American innovation is (or rather, has been) due to government investment in research, rather than due to the absurd system of for-profit health insurance and for-profit health care delivery. I’m glad you picked up the thread, because you’re in a much better position to make that argument than I am.
The innovation that America is known for is another argument in favor of heavier federal investment in research — it is not an argument that furnishes support for our ridiculous heath care system.
Again I ask Grog — if our methods of paying for and delivering health care are so good, why is the rest of the world moving away from those methods rather than toward them? Why is it that not a single industrialized nation on the planet wants to do things the way we do?
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It’s not surprising that a European prefers a system in which their government takes care of their needs versus our market based system where individuals are responsible for their own health care needs.
But the point of insurance is that individuals cannot pay for their own heath care. If individuals could afford to “pay their own way,” there would be no need for insurance. The point of insurance is that healthy people pay for the care of people who are sick or injured, with the understanding that their own needs will also be met some other year. Insurance is “socialist”, by definition.
This idea that Europeans like socialism whereas Americans are individualistic is a false meme. Americans can no more afford to “pay their own way” than Europeans can. The difference is that Europeans admit it, rather than allow themselves to be suckered by this propaganda into making insurance companies richer, with no improvement in care or outcomes (only an unnecessary and inefficient increase in cost).
I wonder if there is something gravely insecure about the American psyche, that we seem to so crave reassurance by powerful corporations that yes, we really are independent and self-supporting, even while the CEOs of those corporations enrich themselves by making us ever-more dependent on them.
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#351 written by GROG 10 months ago
Mono,
If I understand you correctly, you’re saying that the U.S. has been the leader in medical innovation due to federal programs.
Does France or Germany or Japan or Italy or Canada not have federal health and science foundations? Why aren’t they the world leaders? Why has the U.S., free market (sort of) economy and all, had more medical and pharma innovation over the past 20 years than the rest of the world combined?
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#352 written by Max 10 months ago
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If I understand you correctly, you’re saying that the U.S. has
been the leader in medical innovation due to federal programs.Does France or Germany or Japan or Italy or Canada not have federal health and science foundations?
I’m not Mono, but yes, these countries have various publicly-funded science foundations. CERN is one example. There are also examples in medical-related fields. In recent decades, American public science and research funding has been drying up, whereas European funding has been continuing. That’s why CERN is now the world’s leader in physics research rather than Fermilab or the cancelled Superconducting Supercollider.
America used to invest heavily in this sort of research, a lot of it thorough universities. America was the leader, because we had the most money to invest, and we did it. The money has been drying up, and we’re falling behind.
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#354 written by GROG 10 months ago
Are you a socialist getting “free shit” because you pay taxes instead of exclusively using private toll roads?
No. Public road infrastructure is necessary even under some of the most capitalistic economies, but as soon as I become enslaved to my government when they control 20% of our economy, then I will consider myself a socialist.
If government should be the provider of healthcare to all, why not food? Why not energy? Why not housing?
BTW, please name the pharma companies that are American owned exclusively. Perhaps you should look before you leap.
I can tell you that 6 of the top 12 healthcare companies are American companies. None are Canadian. I can tell you that 6 of the top 12 involved in the pharma and biotech industry are American companies. None of the top 49 are Canadian. None. Zero.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pharmaceutical_companies
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#355 written by Max 10 months ago
GROG,
The US Government is NOT a “provider” of healthcare, except in the case of the VA or local health departments. Neither is Aetna or BC/BS or Cigna or United or any other insurance company. I don’t believe that you are confused on the issue! We are NOT discussing the UK system in comparison! BUT, shall I mention that MUCH of the food you chow down on comes to you via those government provided roads, AND much of the energy you consume comes to you via government provide rights-of-way, hydro plants and let’s not forget TVA and the whole original REA system.
And, btw, healthcare IS a necessity, by definition and by law. Certainly, one could theoretically choose NOT to use doctors and hospitals, but one could also choose NOT to drive and use the roads. Thus your answer is worthless as a practical matter and I ask you to try again on that subject.
You list the “top” companies only by revenue. So why would it be surprising that, since the US has the costliest system in the world, that half are US? You are readily admitting, though, that at least half of the top 12 are NOT American-owned. Maybe you should compare companies on patents received over the past 25 years, or some other qualitative metric?
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GROG,
Does France or Germany or Japan or Italy or Canada not have federal health and science foundations? Why aren’t they the world leaders? Why has the U.S., free market (sort of) economy and all, had more medical and pharma innovation over the past 20 years than the rest of the world combined?
Because these things have very long horizons on them. The United States became the world leader in science in no small part because we were terrified of the Soviets. We poured money into scientific research in everything that could be used in weaponry. This included a space program that came from a desire to prove to the Soviets that we could deliver ICBMs with pinpoint accuracy…but prove it in a way that didn’t require that we actually deliver an ICBM with pinpoint accuracy. It also included research into biology in order to figure out how to deal with bioweapons, chemical weapons, nuclear weapons, and antidotes to all of those. Baby boomers were inundated with propoganda designed to encourage them to go into the sciences, so that we could be better than the Soviets at that stuff.
Naturally, the things we learned paid dividends far beyond merely figuring out how to kill Commies and prevent Commies from killing us. But the 1950s were all about Commies.
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GROG,
In addition to what Michael and DC and Max have said above, also remember that “innovation” (however you define it) is a lagging indicator. Except in all but the rarest circumstances, the Nobel is awarded at least a dozen years, and typically two dozen years, after the work is done. (I could argue about using the Nobel as a relevant metric, but still.)The work was done by a team of individuals who had already been trained for 20 or 30 years at that point.As we embark on the experiment of dismantling the U.S. postwar investment in foundational R&D, then we will not fully realize the results of doing so until mid-century.For example, look at the nationalities of winners of the Nobel Prizes in research fields here, recalling that it was about 1945–1965 when the greatest infusion of capital came to the American research enterprise.For example, in Physiology & Medicine, Americans won at least a share of the prize every year from 1958 to 1981, with the exception of 1962. By the 1980s, Americans were winning a share of the prize about two out of every three years (23 of the last 32 years). -
#358 written by GROG 10 months ago
Michael,
So the deficits Reagan ran up to defeat the Soviets wasn’t a complete waste.
I have a serious question though. Do you think any good in this country has been a result of our unique free market (at least relative to Europe and Canda) system?
Max,
Do you think we should have a single payer food provider system? Why or why not?
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#359 written by Max 10 months ago
GROG,
Your question is irrelevant, a diversion and beneath answering. I’ll leave it to MW to address you ridiculous (not truly serious) question to him. You perhaps should clarify if you are speaking exclusively to health insurance.
But then again, you have admitted that you have only ideology to oppose a single payer health insurance system, as you have no ability to provide generalized data otherwise.
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#360 written by shortchain 10 months ago
Max,
If GROG asks, we should try to help. Since you won’t, let me point out to GROG that, when you need an appendectomy, you probably won’t be happy if the only thing you can afford is a tonsillectomy.On the other hand, if you want meat, and the beef is too expensive, you can probably get chicken and at least survive.
And if you need treatment for a broken back in Pennsylvania, an orthopedist in Vancouver won’t help you much. But if we have a corn crop failure in Indiana, it may raise the price of corn, but we can import wheat from Canada.
Thus, since food is fungible, whereas healthcare isn’t, the two cases are not interchangeable. Personally, I think that a regulated free market is a fine solution for food. Not so much for healthcare. This has been born out by the experience in the USA, where a (massively federally subsidized food production industry) has provided food at very low prices, but healthcare costs have grown disproportionately over the same period.
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GROG,
So the deficits Reagan ran up to defeat the Soviets wasn’t a complete waste.
I know you said this in jest, but let’s be clear about something. Seven Presidents before Reagan managed to invest in that research without running up huge deficits. Most of them ran surpluses, which were used to pay off the WWII debt. And Reagan’s expenditures were focused on production, not research, though SDI did provide some innovations.
Do you think any good in this country has been a result of our unique free market (at least relative to Europe and Canda) system?
Directly, no. Indirectly, yes. The most valuable unique contribution was a lack of aristocracy.
Do you think we should have a single payer food provider system?
Since Max didn’t want to answer this…
No, we shouldn’t. The reason for having a single-payer medical system is that, unlike food or shelter, the cost of healthcare for any given person varies widely over time. It’s the unpredictability that makes healthcare unique, and uniquely suited to a single-payer system. -
So the deficits Reagan ran up to defeat the Soviets wasn’t a complete waste.
Whether it was a “complete waste” or not, it was a bad idea, and any positive results could have been (and should have been) obtained without the massive Reagan deficits. (But thanks for acknowledging that Reagan was responsible for the Reagan deficits.)
At any rate, most of the investment in research that Michael spoke about happened long before Reagan, going back to the 1950’s. Reagan can’t tke the credit for it.
Do you think any good in this
country has been a result of our unique free market (at least
relative to Europe and Canda) system?I don’t know about “relative to.” Both Europe and Canada have a mix of free market and socialized elements, just as we do. In fact, that is true of nearly every nation on Earth. They just have unique mixes. Certainly health care certainly has suffered from being a for-profit industry rather than considered to be a public good and run as a public program for the good of The People.
Do you think we should have a single payer food provider system? Why or why not?
I think a mix of for-profit and public elements is good. That’s what we’ve got, and it works well for food production. One of the big differences here is that no one will ever show up at an emergency broccoli clinic, needing emergency broccolicare to prevent death. We will never feel it necessary for the public to provide emergency broccolicare to people who show up at broccoli clinics, at a cost to the people who have broccoli insurance.
We do have public elements to food production, certainly — meat inspections, label requirements, assistance programs for poor children, and so on. And that makes sense, too.
It’s a matter of doing what makes sense. Our current health care delivery and financing systems don’t. The rest of the world does that a lot better than we do.
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The Golden Era of research funding ended in 1973, with the so-called Nixon Rescission.
Reagan was no friend of research funding, either.
See
Historically, as I’ve written before, Republican Presidents have tended to favor “research” projects that agree with their preconceived notions, while Democratic Presidents have supported basic research in its purest form.
GROG, you’ll have to forgive me, but I lived through these times and still am fairly bitter about the disconnect between what I was told to do and what Congress actually supported. There has been for over 30 years a pervasive theme (“we are falling behind in science, technology, engineering and math [STEM] fields”; “there is a coming shortage of scientists”) and that disconnect between what we’re being told and the reality on the ground was called The Myth by young scientists in the 1980s.
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#365 written by shortchain 10 months ago
To underpin what Monotreme just said — In the years from about 1965 up to 1973 the NSF had a funding base that allowed them to continue sponsoring — and funding — new research projects. With Nixon’s slashing of their budget, it was announced that they would continue to fund existing projects but not solicit or accept new ones. Instead, they shifted some funding to DARPA. Which disappeared into the maw of the military-industrial complex, producing a lot of sinecures for military folks who wanted to retire and make a lot of money, but did very little for research.
In 1976 Bell Labs, which had been a frequent recipient of NSF funding (and gave us a few goodies along the way), hired, as I recall, somewhere on the order of about 30 new PhD’s. In 1977 they had 1 (one!) opening.
I later spent some time at NASA. The place was a mausoleum by 1980. What little was being done was being done by corporations, in a pretty obvious effort at keeping them alive long enough for funding to return (it never did).
I also lived through that era, and I, also have bad feelings about what the GOP, in the person of RMN, did to our research.
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#366 written by Max 10 months ago
GROG,
“My point about being entrenched in socialism refers to the ideology of Europeans, not mine. It’s not surprising that a European prefers a system in which their government takes care of their needs versus our market based system where individuals are responsible for their own health care needs. It’s how Europeans have been conditioned for generations.“
Ummmm, one SLIGHT problem with that assertion.
Ain’t just them damned Europeans. Wanna look at the systems in Japan and Australia and New Zealand.
Wanna tell us WHICH countries, anywhere else in the whole wide world, have a system pretty much like the US?
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#368 written by GROG 10 months ago
DC,
On June 16, 2012, the Socialist Party of France won an absolute majority in the French Parliament. The Socialist Party of France is a member of The Party of European Socialists and the Socialist International.
Are those people also idiots? Are they using stupid-hate words that are meaningless and dumb?
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#369 written by shortchain 10 months ago
GROG,
So — the fact that these people have “socialist” in their name, and are a member of a largely meaningless umbrella organization means they have called for the abolition of private ownership of all factories, mines, farms, banks, oil companies, etc?This illustrates the purpose of demonizing the word “socialist” — so that people cannot evaluate, on the merits, the proposals and aims the party actually supports. They see “socialist” and look no further.
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#370 written by Max 10 months ago
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#371 written by GROG 10 months ago
shortchain,
Why would they call themselves Socialists if they are not really socialists and don’t wish to be associated with socialists? I wouldn’t name my party the Racist Party if I don’t want people to think I’m a racist.
So — the fact that these people have “socialist” in their name, and are a member of a largely meaningless umbrella organization means they have called for the abolition of private ownership of all factories, mines, farms, banks, oil companies, etc?
Do you think perhaps their idea of socialism does not match your idea of socialism?
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#372 written by GROG 10 months ago
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#373 written by Max 10 months ago
GROG,
Does that make those countries “socialist” as well? What about Japan? What are the other countries world-wide who have a US style system?
BTW, my “point” is that you seem to have a hard-on about Europeans and you ignore facts about the rest of the world and even your own complicity in “socialist” behavior.
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#374 written by shortchain 10 months ago
GROG,
Your question as to why would they call themselves socialist or associate with socialists indicates that you think that socialist is an innately bad thing to be. That’s a reflection yourself, not on them, or on “socialism”.As to what I consider “socialist” — that’s not the issue, is it? No more than what you consider “socialist”. Perhaps what they consider “socialist” doesn’t line up with what you think is “socialist”, eh?
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#375 written by GROG 10 months ago
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#376 written by shortchain 10 months ago
GROG,
Let’s see now, you claim that Europeans are “socialists” because they elected (this year) a person who calls himself a “socialist”. And you say the leaders are “socialists” because they say they are. That makes China a republic, and North Korea a democracy, by your rules.And of course, nearer to home, we have Massachusetts, which elected a Mormon as governor, which, by your rules, makes that a Mormon state. Don’t tell Utah.
Whether this is idiotic I don’t care to opine, but I question its validity.
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GROG,
The Christian Democrats in Germany are not all Christians.The Democratic Party in the U.S. sends representatives to Congress, which is a republican institution. (That is, we live in a representative democracy, but they’re not called the “Representative Democracy Party”, are they?)The Whigs in 19th Century U.S. politics did not oppose the Tories or the Royalists, but rather opposed Andrew Jackson.There are parties called Communist or Socialist for historical reasons that retain the name of the party, even though that’s no longer what the party stands for.This should not be news to you. -
#378 written by GROG 10 months ago
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#379 written by Max 10 months ago
Oh, GROG, just give it a rest. This is the “weeds” that I talk about. You play around with truly irrelevant silliness to deflect from the fact that you don’t have facts to back up your ORIGINAL position, or from the REAL question on the table. Because you have NEVER addressed the fact that practically EVERY country in the world has rejected the US health insurance system. Guess that make the US the ONLY non-socialist country on the face of the planet!
How about dealing with THOSE things FIRST, then we can get to the basis of your paranoid delusions.
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Are those people also idiots? Are they using stupid-hate words that are meaningless and dumb?
The idiots are the American conservatives who intentionally confuse Western-European socialism with Eastern-European Communism and pretend it’s the same thing.
The idiots are the American conservatives who use “socialism” as a four-letter word and as a billy club to hit American on-conservatives with.
The idiots are the American conservatives who called Obama a “socialist.”
Go read the Milos Forman piece and come back.
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#381 written by GROG 10 months ago
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#382 written by GROG 10 months ago
DC,
The idiots are the American conservatives who intentionally confuse Western-European socialism with Eastern-European Communism and pretend it’s the same thing.
Please provide something to back up that assertion.
Go read the Milos Forman piece and come back.
I already did.
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#384 written by Max 10 months ago
GROG,
Did you observe how dc and I agreed to drop the 2nd Amendment thing? So that we could return to the subject of the thread?
Again, I note that you AVOID any discussion of the issue on the table: Is Australia and NZ and Japan and ALL the rest of the world socialist because they have not got a “free market” health insurance system like the US? IS there ANY factual proof, that can be agreed upon by most parties, that demonstrate that single payer systems DO NOT provide for healthcare results AT LEAST as good as that in the US and for LESS money? Why are NO countries, anywhere in the world, moving TOWARDS the US system?
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#385 written by GROG 10 months ago
Again, I note that you AVOID any discussion of the issue on the table:
You can note that all you want, but that doesn’t make it true.
Is Australia and NZ and Japan and ALL the rest of the world socialist because they have not got a “free market” health insurance system like the US?
The way they deliver healthcare is socialistic, yes.
IS there ANY factual proof, that can be agreed upon by most parties, that demonstrate that single payer systems DO NOT provide for healthcare results AT LEAST as good as that in the US and for LESS money?
That depends on how “good” is determined. Is it based on choice? Is it based on wait times? Is it based on medical and pharmaceutical innovation? Is it based on quick access to primary care physicians? Is it based on access to prescription drugs? The U.S. drives most of the innovation and research on healthcare in the world. Is it based on that?
Why are NO countries, anywhere in the world, moving TOWARDS the US system?
They may not be considering abandoning their nationlized systems, but there is no question that the worldwide trend is to move away from centralized government controled healthcare and to introduce more market based solutions.
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#386 written by shortchain 10 months ago
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The idiots are the American conservatives who
intentionally confuse Western-European socialism with
Eastern-European Communism and pretend it’s the same thing.Please provide something to back up that assertion.
Do I take it that you disagree? Do you feel it is not idiotic to confuse totalitarianism with something that is not totalitarianism? Perhaps you think it is wise to misrepresent the truth, or to pretend something is what it is not?
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#388 written by GROG 10 months ago
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The
thing I’m asking you to back up is the assertion that when
conservatives refer to “socialism”, they are refering to
Eastern-European Communism and not Western-European Socialism.
Thanks.The assertion I made is that they are intentionally conflating the two. You’re welcome.
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Every time they use the word “socialism.”
You are not going to pretend they use it in a positive sense, are you? They are not using it to emphasize how western European socialism has made people more free, more secure, healthier, safer, and more wealthy, correct? Are they not instead using the word to imply something sinister?
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#392 written by GROG 10 months ago
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#393 written by shortchain 10 months ago
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#394 written by GROG 10 months ago
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#395 written by shortchain 10 months ago
GROG,
If we go by your comments here, we cannot demonstrate that you have anything but a vague notion as to what a “socialist” is. You seem to believe that, if someone has a “socialist” somewhere in the name of their organization, they must be, therefore, a socialist. Sorry to confuse you, but lots of people lay claims to all kinds of descriptions, yet have no real association with the ideology involved… -
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Grog,
Are you seriously arguing that no Republican who used the word “socialism” in connection with Democrats in the last 40 years (and, specifically, in conjunction with President Obama) intended for the listeners to think of Eastern-European-style totalitarian repression? You don’t actually expect anyone to believe that was not the intent of this offensive and sleazy political propaganda, do you? Be serious, my friend.
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#399 written by GROG 10 months ago
sc,
GROG,
You pulled this out: “there is no question that the worldwide trend is to move away from centralized government controled healthcare…” — Really? I question that assertion, because I don’t see that movement.France is one example. France has institued co-pays ranging from 10 to 40 percent which has led to consumers paying 13% of their heealtcare out of pocket, about the same as US consumers.
http://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/80694/E83126.pdfAlso, because many doctors in France refuse the fee schedules imposed on them, 92% of the French purchase private insurance and private insurance makes up 13% of healthcare spending. It’s an old paper, but see page 5. Particularly this statement:
“Another change that may be on the horizon is in the relationship between private complementary insurance and the statutory public system. The public system is facing chronic deficits and recent costcontainment policies have not proved very successful. The government has signalled an interest in reforms that would redefine the role of public and private insurance, shifting some responsibilities from the former to the latter.“
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/35/11/30455292.pdfTo my knowledge, the OECD is not some kind of a radical, far right organization.
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#400 written by shortchain 10 months ago
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About Michael Weiss (322 posts)
Michael is a jack of many trades, and master of a few. His varied background includes government and private businesses, both large and small. His experience in the financial services and computer industries has led him to computer security.







@Mule,
Very cool. We may be closer than some of our rhetoric might seem. Perhaps we both look toward the middle, while standing on different sides of the arena (not necessarily opposite sides — any boxing ring has at least 4 sides
).
By the way, I also appreciate how you have kept your cool as well. Thanks for that.
Perhaps we can move to more productive aspects of the questions, and consider how various segments of society interact, what are their goals (stated and unstated), what are the strengths and weaknesses — private sector, public sector, corporations, unions, non-unionized workers, small businesses, foreign interests, younger consumers, older consumers, medical industry, energy industry, etc.
I think a healthy economy needs interaction of all these segments. I suspect you see less of a role for regulation than I do, but that may be not so much because of a difference in whether a give course of action is “bad”, as it is whether we trust this or that segment to do things in a “reasonable” way without oversight.