Bain Damage
This week may mark the beginning of the end of Mitt Romney’s campaign for President. If you’ve been around Logarchism a while, you know I’m not typically one to get all breathless at the barest whisper of trouble for a Republican candidate. This looks different from the typical political gaffe, though.
See, here’s the problem. Romney has an existing reputation for a lack of conviction, for changing his stance on issues more frequently than the weather changes. It’s why the Etch-a-Sketch statement was so damaging for him, despite for most candidates being merely a benign statement of fact. The expected Republican Presidential candidate has a rapidly building narrative that he is having trouble defending. Let’s start with the narrative, and then look at possible defenses and their respective pitfalls.
The narrative is that Mitt Romney did not leave Bain Capital in 1999 as he had originally claimed, but rather left years later. During the time he claims to have left, but was still the sole shareholder, chairman, president, and CEO, Bain was engaged in many practices that are not playing well with Americans, whether liberal, moderate, or conservative. Bain was responsible for offshoring numerous jobs. The investment firm purchased KB Toys, a company that failed after Bain bled it of cash. They also invested in a company that profited from disposing aborted fetuses, an activity that is particularly repulsive to Republicans.
If he did, in fact, leave in 1999, then the Bain SEC filings, which called him the sole owner, chairman, president, and CEO, look suspect. Under the most charitable light, given how much of his net worth was tied up in the firm, it would be irresponsible in the extreme for him to be entirely hands-off. This is particularly concerning when you consider that he points to his Bain experience as evidence of how well he can run the nation.
In the midst of this comes information regarding Romney’s individual retirement accounts (IRAs). Somehow, he managed to amass $102 million in his accounts. Now, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with having a large sum of money in a bank account. Where the problem arises is how one gets that much into an IRA, because there are strict laws governing one’s ability to contribute to those accounts, due to their advantageous taxation. In order for Romney’s IRAs to have reached such stratospheric levels, he would have had to not only contribute the maximum each year, but also garner a return on investment that itself is stratospheric. If we had access to his tax returns for the years he is unwilling to share, we would find out how he did this.
How might this have happened? It turns out that he could have put shares of Bain Capital into his IRA. And it just so happens that if you own a company in its entirety, you can put as many shares as you wish into your IRA account by merely valuing the shares at zero. It’s quite the tax loophole.
So how does Romney combat all of these skeletons that are rattling in his closet?
Some of the Bain activities have a modicum of defense. KB may well have failed anyway, for example. But Bain chose to take money out of the dying firm, hastening that demise, rather than work on transforming the company into something that could have survived. By analogy, instead of treating the patient, the doctor chose to harvest the organs, draw the blood, and profit from them. In other words, even the more charitable view of “it would have happened anyway” doesn’t play especially well.
Romney can provide evidence that he really did depart in February of 1999. But Romney’s aide’s statement that he retired “retroactively” from Bain has the same problem that Senator John Kerry had when he said that he voted in favor of a bill before he voted against it. To those who understand the inside intricacies, the statement makes sense, but to most voters it sounds slippery, as if they’re being lied to…even if they’re not.
If Romney packed his IRA with Bain shares at zero basis, he has yet another problem. This is the sort of behavior that gets less sophisticated Americans livid. It’s the sort of activity that makes the Occupy crowd complain bitterly…right alongside Tea Partiers.
The Bain story seems to be becoming something of a matryoshka doll. Each part of the story you open reveals another story. It’s matryoshka dolls all the way down, which may turn into a neverending story from now until November.
Related articles
- The Secret Behind Romney’s Magical IRA (bloomberg.com)
- Video: Fmr. Bain partner: ‘Legally’ Romney was CEO of Bain until 2002 (msnbc.msn.com)
- Is Mitt Romney’s Magical IRA Akin To His Magical Mormon Underwear? (dekerivers.wordpress.com)
- How Romney Never Really Left Bain (alan.com)
- Wait–Maybe THIS Is How Mitt Romney Got So Rich… (businessinsider.com)
- Bain Document Listed Romney As “Managing Memeber” In 2002 (alan.com)

This entry was posted by Michael Weiss on July 17, 2012 at 3:00 am, and is filed under Uncategorized. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0.You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.
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#102 written by mclever 10 months ago
@Michael
Good point, of course. 800% is not the same as 800X. Even if Romney had invested all of his money in Oracle back in 1992 and garnered 9000% returns, he’d still have a long way to go to get to $20M in an IRA with only $2K per year in contributions.
However, Max is (probably incorrectly) assuming Romney used a traditional IRA. There are other IRA options available for a sole proprietorship, such as a SIMPLE IRA which has much higher contribution limits compared to either the Traditional or ROTH IRA plans. If Romney was contributing closer to the SIMPLE limit of ~$10K for 25 years rather than the $2K that Max assumes, then he’d have $250K instead of only $50K. If we use Max’s estimation approach and take half of that, then the $125K would need to increase 160X to get to $20M (or 15,900% returns) over twenty-five years. The Smart Money article identified about 3 stocks that got over 10,000% in twenty years, including one that did better than 19,000%. So, 15,900% in twenty-five years isn’t completely out of the range of possibility. Just very, very highly improbable. I would certainly want to know how he knew to put all of his money in Kansas City Southern and Middleby.
Oh, and please do check my math on that, because I’m not really a money person, and it’s late here so my brain’s already half-asleep.
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#103 written by Armchair Warlord 10 months ago
This brings up the specter that, if Romney has actually committed perjury or tax evasion, he could be arrested and tried for felonies. Talk about creating a shambles for the Republican Party!
Having the opposition candidate thrown in prison during the campaign would probably be a new low in American politics, but, hey, you reap what you sow.
shiloh,
That was low. Like, really low. I know Mormons and they’re welcome to wear whatever underwear they please.
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#104 written by DrFunguy 10 months ago
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#105 written by mclever 10 months ago
Another issue, is that Max’s estimation approach doesn’t take into account compounding. When you say it needs to show 400,000% returns, that sounds ridiculous. But if you look at it year by year, 30% annual returns with 10K annual contributions would get to $40M after 25 years. 30% annual returns are stupendous (when the market average was closer to 7% or 8% during those 25 years), but it doesn’t sound quite as ridiculous as 400,000%. If we assume contributions of $2K per year for 25 years, we’d need 39.5% annual returns to get to $40M.
Again, feel free to check my math on that… I won’t be offended if you catch a mistake!
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Mormonism is a very secretive “religion” or so I hear, so mittens’ candidacy should shed some light on said secrecy, eh.
Lawrence O’Donnell mentioned tonight that Romney used his religion to stay out of the Vietnam War ie being a missionary in Paris!
Whereas other religions you could be a missionary and not have said exemption er deferment. One wonders how Mormons finagled such a deal. Must have been magic!Mormonism notwithstanding, conservatives despise mittens more than I despised Kerry in 2004. The big question is how many of them will stay home in Nov.
Stay tuned …
And as always, don’t get me going on religion/cults whatever.
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Bottom line, mittens has never had to work a day in his life and certainly no one has ever told him what to do. So what are the odds he releases his tax returns. My $$$ er IRA er 401k er stocks er tax shelters er Swiss bank accts. er Cayman Islands’ off shore accts. is on Romney never/ever releasing his tax returns.
Hey, that’s how mittens/Mormons roll …
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#107 written by dawolf 10 months ago
I think we are looking at a different IRA.
I think Romney invested in the Irish Republican Army. Now the IRA have in the past achieved very high results through strategic threats, essentially acting as a mafia in certain areas of Northern Ireland. Romney as a crime overlord and terrorist would give him a great reason not to release his tax returns.
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More seriously, you’d have to be 50% better than Warren Buffet to get a 30% annual return, compounded. Berkshire Hathaway have only averaged 20%.
I think it’s much much more likely that when Romney setup Bain Capital, he valued the company very lowly, which means he could put a lot of the shares into the IRA without any problems. Then Bain Capital did well, and when he sold up in 2002 the IRA was suddenly worth multi millions.
Whether that reflects deliberately low-balling the shares value, or just that Bain Capital did increase in value a couple of hundred times, I have no idea. It probably depends on your viewpoint on Romney whether you give him the benefit of the doubt or not.
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#108 written by mclever 10 months ago
@dawolf
I think it’s much much more likely that when Romney setup Bain
Capital, he valued the company very lowly, which means he could put a
lot of the shares into the IRA without any problems. Then Bain
Capital did well, and when he sold up in 2002 the IRA was suddenly
worth multi millions.That makes sense as the likely case. Only a handful of public companies (like Oracle and Qualcomm and the others on the SmartMoney list) performed that well year over year, but it’s not impossible for a small company (or a company that was very small at the beginning) to show that sort of growth, especially during the boom of the late 1990’s. My recollection of that time has a few private consulting firms showing similar growth levels, especially when they were getting bought/merging. Like you say, whether it was deliberate low-balling of his company’s value or not may depend on perspective.
My point in calculating the 30%+ annual growth required was to get a number that we could more readily understand, because we’re not accustomed to looking at growth compounded over multiple years. Most people get closer to 8% annual returns, which roughly triples their money after 25 years of constant contributions (220% returns). For comparison, 10% annual growth or 16% annual growth would garner 25-year total returns of about 333% (4.3X) and 1000% (11.5X) respectively, but those aren’t the sort of numbers that are immediately apparent to most people.
Your comparison to Berkshire Hathaway is very helpful in getting a perspective on just how well Romney’s IRA must have done. Better than Buffett! That’s pretty damn hard to do…
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Mac… that one’s a real killer, all right.
Interestingly, the “Firms” ad caused a significant uproar at some of the writer sites I visit where screenwriters and other Hollywood types tend to hang out. They felt the production values in this spot… particularly the sound quality, making the voice sound hollow as if resonating within in empty factory or workroom, plus the clever juxtaposition of images… pointed to the likelihood that the Obama campaign is bringing in major big-name movie experts as “ringers” to help with ad quality.
Controversy on this raged for days, until the campaign itself finally stated unequivocally that their own talent is doing all the work on ads, without assistance from Hollywood. As one of the tecchie guys said… “With all the stuff we have available to us now, it’s really not that hard to do some pretty dazzling stuff.”
But the main resource is the creativity… which the Obama campaign seems to have a lot of of this year. To say nothing of chutzpah and ruthlessness, which also help
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#115 written by mclever 10 months ago
@filistro
The screenwriters at your writer sites were being silly. All they have to do is look at the production quality of some of the YouTube mashups done by teenagers using cellphone videos and mp3s to see some pretty good shorts that would challenge Pixar… Considering the even better production tools available to any professional ad company, it’s no surprise to me that the Obama ad was so well done. What surprised me was the simplicity and effectiveness of it. Too often, political advertisers go too far with dramatic music and overdo the annoying backgrounds. But the “Firms” ad was spot on.
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#116 written by mclever 10 months ago
@DrFunguy
That ad is good, too, but it goes about 15 seconds too long, in my opinion. They spend too much time on reactions rather than just letting the awkward reading of the quote stand for itself. The one woman’s quote about “fishy” plus a couple of puzzled looks, and then close with the “Chairman, CEO, and Sole Shareholder — But Not Responsible?” line.
I will say that I appreciate that they didn’t use ominous or overly obnoxious music…
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@Mac… The screenwriters at your writer sites were being silly.
Actually, some of them are pretty big names. And a few well-known directors weighed in on the debate as well. They were talking specifically about the use of sophisticated audio techniques like really subtle reverb and echo which you can hear if you listen closely to the ad, but which aren’t available to your average you-tube home videographer.
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Speaking of Bain damage… I’ve been waiting for it to happen and it just did. In the past hour Romney has dropped below 40% at Intrade.
Treme, I know you follow the Iowa electronic markets… how is he doing there, and what is the trend line? (For some reason I find that site completely impossible to navigate.)
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@filistro
Imagination — Obama’s people got it, Romney’s don’t. I think that’s why Obama is likely to trounce Romney, and why Romney is so slow both to realize when he has a problem, and to find a way out of it.
I honestly think Romney can’t imagine why anyone would not vote for him. Nor can he imagine why he isn’t connecting to voters. Doesn’t everyone have an elevator to store his wife’s two Caddies?
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On IEM, Romney has been as high at 52% (Sept 2011) and as low as 35% (briefly, in early April) but lately has been hovering around 45%. At yesterday’s close he dipped below 40% and seems to be on a downward trend.
fili, the hard thing about IEM is choosing between VS (vote share) and WTA (winner take all). I prefer WTA since that gives me the probability of a win. Vote share is the consensus for how the voting is going to come out, and that’s bound to be a narrow band. 55% would be a landslide in the electoral college, so it’s almost certainly between 45% and 55% no matter what. But we can see looking at Michael’s maps that while it may be (say) 51⁄49 in the popular vote, the odds that President Obama will be re-elected are probably 2⁄3 (67%) and the odds that President Romney will be inaugurated are probably 1⁄3 (33%). That’s in line with what Nate is saying, too. This far out, I wouldn’t go any further than 67% anyway. -
You guys are having wayyy too much fun
at mittens’ expense. As Romney would say, now cut that out, before I cut your hair off!. Daddy, tell them to stop!Blast from the recent past …
Conservative radio host pressures Romney, then mocks him for caving
“When word got around that Republican presidential hopeful Mitt Romney had appointed an openly gay man as his Foreign Policy and National Security Spokesman, unrelenting criticism from the right soon forced the Romney campaign to let him go.
Bryan Fischer of the American Family Association was among the most prominent of those critics, suggesting that Richard Grenell’s lifestyle could make him a security risk. But having gotten his way, Fischer is now milkng Romney’s haste to accomodate the religious right as a source of doubts about the candidate’s backbone.
“If Mitt Romney can be pushed around, intimidated, coerced, coöpted by a conservative radio talk show host in Middle America,” Fischer asked, “then how is he going to stand up to the Chinese, how is he going to stand up to Putin, how is he going to stand up to North Korea, if he can be pushed around by a yokel like me?”
“I don’t think Romney’s realizing kind of the doubts that this begins to raise about his leadership,” he added.”
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Did I mention the campaign hasn’t really begun yet.
Duck and cover …
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#123 written by mclever 10 months ago
It was bugging me, so I went and looked it up. It’s quite likely that Romney’s IRA is a SEP-IRA rather than a Traditional IRA. The SEP-IRA is intended for business owners and allows for much higher contributions than a Traditional or Roth IRA. If someone is self-employed, they can contribute up to 18.9% of their wages up to $200K (or 25% of total earnings up to $250K, inclusive of IRA contributions) or $50K for 2012, compared to ~$5K for a “normal” IRA. If you’re starting out contributing ten times as much as an ordinary Joe, then he’s already well ahead.
If we assume Romney contributed something like $35K (rather than $50K) for those 25 years, then he’d “only” need ~20% annual gains to get to the millions that he has now. That still is quite remarkable, but not as crazy as what it would take to get $2K contributions to $40M. So, it’s probably a combination of being able to invest in his own company’s (undervalued) stock and being able to contribute much more than a normal worker due to being the business owner.
Hey, that’s another reason for him to stay on the books as the business owner through 2002, so that he could continue contributing higher amounts to his IRA!
Go figure…
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#124 written by dawolf 10 months ago
It could be a risk thing.
Company I’ve setup — I can buy shares at whatever price I want. However, I pay some form of fair market value due to having some other minor shareholders.
However, even this fair market value is currently about 10% of the value the shares will realise if we are successful in our pilot project. And that pilot project price could be 10% (or lower) of the final share price, if we manage to do another 9 projects after this one.
So in simple terms, I could multiple my investment a hundred fold in the next ~4 years. Or lose the lot
But it’s this massive multiple, based on risk, that I expect Romney used. -
#125 written by parksie555 10 months ago
Looks like the Bain attacks may not be helping as much as you guys think it is…
Americans don’t typically care what the other guy makes. And they really don’t care about the other guy’s tax returns.
But this is exactly what was expected for this campaign. An incumbent with a brutal record trying to do everything he can to change the subject.
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Hi parksie! Nice to see a fellow cellar-dweller. It really sucks when your team is playing .400 ball, doesn’t it?
I think you’re right that nobody cares what the other guy makes… but they do care A LOT about the tax returns. For one thing, lively curiosity about other people is a deeply American attribute … hence the massive popularity of reality TV. And Americans can’t stand having something kept from them that they think they should be allowed to see. They’re going to keep pounding at Mitt’s closed box until they manage to pry the lid off, just because they hate the fact that he refuses to open it voluntarily.
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Parksie, good to see you. I wish you’d come around here more often to keep us honest.
About the CBS/NY Times poll and the Fox poll the same day, Nate Silver says in a new column:
Over all, the FiveThirtyEight model has shown an extremely flat race
for the past month or so. There is little in the way of persuasive
evidence that the race is moving much in one direction or another.…
So it’s at least plausible that Mr. Obama is being weighted down by the economic news, that Mr. Romney is being weighted down by the negative coverage
surrounding Bain Capital, and that these effects are roughly canceling each other out.It’s also plausible that all of this is just statistical noise. Furthermore, it’s plausible that, within a week or two, we will seem to see some clearer sign of a trend toward one or another of the candidates.
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#132 written by mclever 10 months ago
Hey, parksie! Good to see you around!
I think the current polling situation is too noisy to know whether Bain is hurting Romney or the economy is hurting Obama more. The only thing clear is that neither is being helped much by either…
You may be right that Americans don’t care much what the other guy makes — we like to all think we could be that rich some day, too. But we do care about fair play and level playing fields, and we don’t like to think that he got all that money without paying taxes or that he had options available to him that we ordinary Americans are barred from. Right now, Romney’s problem has become that the longer he holds out on releasing his financial information, the more it looks like he’s hiding something.
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#133 written by parksie555 10 months ago
I’ve been a little busy, traveling a fair amount for work.
Yes filly, it is disappointing how rapid the Phillie collapse has been — including Doc missing a few turns.
I think the tax story may have some legs, but I think that they may have made a tactical error in bringing this attack up a little early.
The media won’t keep hammering Romney on his tax returns (except for the Maddow crew of pseudo journalists at MSNBC) because if he doesn’t release them it’s a pretty boring story and they will soon turn to other shiny objects.
I would have thought the tax angle might be a little more effective closer to the election, at some point after Labor Day when normal people start to tune in.
I think this will be an old story by then.
Lever makes a good point about the polls, similar to Nate’s take. I still think it’s a very close election. If the economy had continued on the Jan-Feb-Mar ’12 trajectory, Obama wins going away.
Unfortunately for the kiddie corps in the White House, it isn’t working out that way. They’ll have to earn their win this time, despite Romney’s weaknesses as a candidate.
I like Romney but I have to admit his version of “America the Beautiful” is possibly the most excruciating rendition of a patriotic song I have ever heard.
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Parksie,
I think you misunderstand the strategy. The tactic is being deployed early, to be sure, but this is the time you define your opponent in the public imagination. John Kerry’s reputation, deserved or not, as a flip-flopper or Michael Dukakis’ reputation as an out-of-touch Massachusetts liberal were already well-established by the opposition by this point in the election cycle.Once that groundwork is laid, then your opponent will say something stupid (“I was for the bill before I was against it”) or do something amusing (like riding around in a tank like Dondi) and it’s Game Over.I predict that moment will come at the Republican convention. Something will happen that will cement the image of a stiff, out-of-touch Romney in the public imagination. Something like him singing “America the Beautiful”. -
Monotreme,
I think you’re exactly right about the “defining the opposition” thing. The point here isn’t so much to make news which will hurt Romney, as it is to create a lasting image of Romney as a sneak who hides how he earned his money and what he does with it.
This is a particularly good time to do it, because Romney is hindered by the fact that he is still restricted to using money from the primary campaign. He can’t use general election funds yet, because he’s not yet officially the Republican nominee, and he won’t be until the convention. His primary campaign war chest has been sorely depleted, so he can’t mount much of a defense against the onslaught of ads from Obama.
This is thus the perfect time to create a lasting image of Romney, and Romney seems to be helping by doing exactly the worst things he can.
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#136 written by mclever 10 months ago
@Monotreme
Good point. The goal of the Bain gambit isn’t necessarily to get Romney to release his tax returns or even to have the Bain argument carry through to November, but rather to cement the image in the American psyche (those persuadable moderates) of Romney as someone who made his money off misfortune of the American worker while shipping jobs overseas and piling up millions in his tax-sheltered accounts, including his dubious IRA balance. Whether any of it’s true or not is almost irrelevant when you have quotes from him saying things like, “I like firing people.” It just cements the image of him as being oblivious to the concerns of ordinary Americans.
That is the sort of lasting impression that can carry through to November as different issues rise between now and then to reinforce it.
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#137 written by mclever 10 months ago
@DC
I keep hearing the depleted war chest meme, but I can tell you anecdotally based on the commercials I have to keep muting on the TV here, that Romney seems to be matching Obama ad for ad on the Iowa airwaves. There’ve been a few stretches during the past month or so when I felt like I was seeing two Romney ads for each Obama ad. When I was in Ohio for part of July, I got much the same impression from the local Columbus area TV stations. So, if Romney is currently being stifled by campaign finance rules, his friendly PACs are picking up the slack and then some.
I think it’s a bit of wishful thinking to think that Romney isn’t able to strike back at the Obama accusations right now. Admittedly, for most of the month I saw a lot of the Better Day and First 100 Days upbeat ads, but now I’m seeing more What Happened? and other similar “Obama sux and he’s a liar” ads.
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#138 written by parksie555 10 months ago
I understand the strategy, I just don’t think it’s a valid strategy.
The utter failure of the whole Occupy movement and the continuing lack of traction with income inequality as an issue shows that middle class Americans aren’t generally concerned with the other guy’s slice of the pie or how he got that piece of pie. They are primarily concerned with how big their slice is. And under Obama it is as small as it has been for a while.
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Tthis morning on GMA, Ann Romney said, “We’ve given you all people need to know and understand about our financial situation and how we live our life,”
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0712/78711.html#ixzz215RVwfz4Note:.. my quote above is verbatim, and it’s bad enough. But in the first reports of Ann Romney’s quote (including this one form Politico) her statement was incorrectly reported with the “all” and the “you” reversed. Imagine how that sounds… “We’ve given all you people need to know…”
And I suspect that is the one that will take hold in the national consciousness.
OUCH.
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#140 written by turrboenvy 10 months ago
I consider “you didn’t build that” a gaffe. He made it way too easy. From a reading of the context, it’s clear to an impartial reader that “that” refers to the roads, bridges, etc your business depends on. But when you say something that your opponent can just pluck and use — a direct quote — then you’ve screwed up.
He should’ve said “You’ve built the small business, but your taxes built the roads.”
I agree with his overall sentiment — “we’re all in this together.” -
parksie… it’s increasingly depressing to me just how important pitching is in baseball. These guys are performing like never before… outstanding unbelievable defensive plays, awesome hitting (even without steroids) but if they don’t have pitching, they can’t win… and good pitching is so hard to find, and so expensive to buy if you do find it.
I’d love to see some kind of rule change to make pitching less vital, but I don’t know what that would look like.
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#142 written by mclever 10 months ago
@filistro
I’d love to see some kind of rule change to make pitching less vital, but I don’t know what that would look like.
But you’d take the best part out of the game! I used to love watching the way a masterful pitcher like Greg Maddux could out-think the batters over the course of a season. He used placement and spin rather than speed to outfox his opponents, and he’d do things like pitch a guy inside all through the regular season and then pitch him outside in the playoffs so that batters never really knew what to expect.
I think the problem may be more that developmental pitchers (and coaches) today are so obsessed with speed rather than variety, that you’re not seeing as many of those guys like a Maddux who never had a 95 mph fast ball (more like 85 mph, but it was more effective than most 100 mph pitches) but who have an intrinsic understanding for how to make a batter miss by just enough to get a grounder or popup rather than a liner to the wall. Batters’ hands and eyes are getting quicker, and if you’re just chucking 100 mph balls over the plate, when they do connect they’re more likely to get that big home run. Just ask the Yankees…
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parksie,
middle class Americans aren’t generally concerned with the other guy’s slice of the pie or how he got that piece of pie.
Really? So you’re saying they think Madoff was unjustly vilified? I mean, sure, I don’t think most Americans feel bad when someone succeeds through their own hard work. But I have a hard time believing that they don’t care if someone gets rich by, say, committing fraud. Perhaps I’m mistaken, though.
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@mclever
So, if Romney is currently being stifled by campaign finance
rules, his friendly PACs are picking up the slack and then some.Yes, I was referring specifically to Romney’s campaign money, not the PAC money. And the situation is different in states that Romney considers “battleground”, because that’s where he and his surrogates are spending what they’ve got.
You certainly make a good point about the availability of the PAC money.
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#145 written by mclever 10 months ago
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I just don’t see where all this money is changing people’s minds. I could be wrong, but I think the effective use of advertising was earlier in the campaign.
Now after four years as President, everyone knows what Barack Obama stands for, and who he is, so I can’t see someone saying, “Oh, gosh, he’s not going to come and take away my assault rifle so I can vote for him now.”There may be a few independents who don’t know Romney well enough, and the Obama campaign has done a really good job of setting boundaries on the public’s conception of him. Now as they learn about him, it will be in the framework of the Obama campaign’s definition, not as a fresh unbiased look.If money alone could advance a candidate to office, then we’d be discussing President Phil Gramm (1997–2005). -
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@turrboenvy
I consider “you didn’t build that” a gaffe.
I agree, first that it was a gaffe, and second with your interpretation of what was intended, and third with the idea that Republicans will lie about what he said.
However, I don’t think it does damage, because it will only gain traction with the people who weren’t going to vote for President Obama anyway. No sane person will believe the meme Republicans are trying to build, that the President is anti-business or anti-capitalist or something like that. It’s just a variation on the inane “socialist” poo flinging.
Yeah, Romney’s been harping from the beginning that he (Romney) has a better understanding of business (and, therefore, of the economy) than the President does. But this is where the Bain discussion and the tax discussion undermine Romney’s rhetoric. Bain makes him into the guy who fired you or your dad, and his refusal to come clean makes him look like a crook on top of it.
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#149 written by mclever 10 months ago
@Monotreme
I just don’t see where all this money is changing people’s minds.
To some extent, you are right. In any advertising, there is a point of diminishing returns where market saturation is such that each additional dollar spent has negligible impact. There is also a point of over-saturation which can even create backlash, especially if an ad is perceived as annoying.
I disagree that the highest efficacy in advertising spending was earlier in the campaign. People are only just starting to really pay attention, and the majority won’t be paying attention until the conventions. It’s getting closer to crunch-time, but not quite there yet. The biggest bang for the advertising dollar is probably in October…
However, you are absolutely right that there are valuable returns in setting the boundaries of the debate now, as the Obama campaign is doing with its advertising. You are absolutely right about the importance of defining the opponent early, but that’s only the first stage of the battle, like setting the pieces on the chessboard for a particular chess puzzle. Each move between now and the election will be costly, and they still have to have enough to play out the game…
Also, when comparing war chests, remember that campaign money is spent on many things other than just blanketing the airwaves with annoying ads that most people mute as fast as they can. Things like campaign offices, paid organizing staff, maintaining data on voters and volunteers, consultants and pollsters, etc. In those categories, I would venture that beyond a certain minimum threshold of viability, it’s more important to spend the money wisely than just to pour money in. And, there is where I think Obama For America is currently doing a good job of spending wisely to create an active, motivated, and engaged campaign effort on the ground rather than the airwaves.
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#150 written by mclever 10 months ago
@DC
No sane person will believe the meme Republicans are trying to
build, that the President is anti-business or anti-capitalist or something like that. It’s just a variation on the inane “socialist” poo flinging.I wish I shared your optimistic view of what the average “sane” American might be willing to believe.
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@DC… No sane person will believe the meme Republicans are trying to
build, that the President is anti-business or anti-capitalist or
something like that. It’s just a variation on the inane “socialist”
poo flinging.If I were advising the Obama campaign, I would tell them this:
***The public in general looks on Barack Obama as a likeable guy, a dedicated family man, a big basketball fan and a moderate politician who was dealt a pretty bad hand and has been trying hard to make things better.
Republicans look on him as something close to the Antichrist, or (in Newt Gingrich’s words) “the most radical, leftist president in the history of the United States.” Anything Obama says to feed into this image drives them into an absolute frenzy, and they can’t keep themselves from overplaying it.
So it’s not a bad idea for Obama to occasionally feed them a bit of this catnip, let them go way over the top with it for a while, and then quietly, humorously mock their frothing anger. “Now, these guys are gonna tell you I’m anti-business, that I don’t believe Gerald, here, built his furniture business all on his own.” (Smiles at the burly guy on stage beside him.)“They’ll even say I believe it takes a village to raise a business!” (Pause for appreciative laughter from crowd.) “But let me tell you, folks, I believe in the awesome power of the American spirit! I believe all of us together are stronger than any of us alone! And I believe…” (Crowd begins to roar in response as the cadence rises…)
Every single time this happens, sane ordinary people like him a little better, and the Republicans look a little crazier.******
And as I watch the arc of this campaign, even now in the summer doldrums while polls are stagnating, it looks to me like somebody is giving the Obama campaign the same advice I would
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@Mac… The Obama campaign has some smart folks, eh?
It looks to me like they’re smart enough to have studied “The Art of War” by Sun Tzu, and internalized the fact that it’s vital to know your enemy as well as you know yourself.
Plouffe and Axelrod are diabolically skilled at pushing Republican buttons. It’s like they have electrodes strategically planted in the collective Republican brain, and any time they want to, they can flip a little switch and make the Republican “body politic” flail around and foam at the mouth.
It’s a very valuable skill.
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#154 written by mclever 10 months ago
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@filistro,
I think you’re right. And I said only a couple days ago that I’m not convinced any of the “gaffes” that Obama or his surrogates have made are actual gaffes. You put your finger precisely on how it has played out, every single time.
Either the Obama team is comprised of incredibly brilliant puppet masters (who can make Republicans dance to any tune the Obama campaign cares to play), or incredibly brilliant responders (who can turn lemons into a champagne breakfast).
The nimbleness with which the Obama campaign not only capitalizes on the hysterical Republican arm-waving, but utilizes it to let the Republicans raise issues that Democrats want to talk about, is truly a thing of beauty.
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#157 written by Mainer 10 months ago
While I do think the Obama team is pretty good I think we need to look at the other team and see how really inept they appear. I know Mitt won out but my word look at who his competition was and at times he even sucked against them. Today Mitt is just going off the rails over the latest Obama comment once again losing message control. And we have the Ann moment of the week that does not appear to be playing well in some circles. For many reasons I want the Olympics to start not the least of which will be what will be made of a certain Romney horse, tax deductions around it and more opportunities for Ann moments. Then there will be the Mitt trip to Israel which will probably result in a Mitt trip in Israel and what could well become the convention from hell with visuals and audios that will most likely leave sane Americans shaking their collective heads in disbeliefe at terminal levels of nastiness, lieing and divisivness. Ah and here because of a drought we may be on the verge of a popcorn shortage. Life is just not fair.
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p555 was wayyy past due for a meaningless negative Obama fly-by lol. And it’s not a total loss as p and fili got to discuss baseball … oh wait!
And p555 knows I don’t miss him, but I wish him well regardless.
>
btw, fili is makin’ me a tad nervous w/her overconfident presidential analysis. IIRC she was wayyy overconfident about Dem’s chances in the 2010 mid-terms. Indeed, as I must give Bartles his due re: the congressional Rep tsunami.
Breakin’ …
Ann Romney is just as phoney as mittens. Who knew!
carry on
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filistro,
So it’s not a bad idea for Obama to occasionally feed them a bit of this catnip, let them go way over the top with it for a while, and then quietly, humorously mock their frothing anger. “Now, these guys are gonna tell you I’m anti-business, that I don’t believe Gerald, here, built his furniture business all on his own.” (Smiles at the burly guy on stage beside him.) “They’ll even say I believe it takes a village to raise a business!” (Pause for appreciative laughter from crowd.) “But let me tell you, folks, I believe in the awesome power of the American spirit! I believe all of us together are stronger than any of us alone! And I believe…” (Crowd begins to roar in response as the cadence rises…)
Your talent for writing fiction certainly shows here. It’s so spot on I can imagine exactly how it would look on YouTube. That’s exactly what his playbook looks like. What I’m interested in seeing is how that will play once we hit Labor Day and those Americans who don’t watch this stuff every day start to pay attention.
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mclever,
But I’m not as certain how the flailing and foaming is playing out with the undecided/moderate voters. That’s what troubles me.
What troubles me is that it comes to this at all. All but the abject partisans should be keenly aware that the economy has been slow to improve in no small part because Congress hasn’t passed legislation necessary to help it along. And they should similarly be keenly aware that Congress hasn’t passed that legislation because, save for about six months of Obama’s term, Democrats haven’t had a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate. And they should similarly be keenly aware that the Republican strategy has been to prevent the passage of anything that might result in Obama looking good, even (especially?) if it would have helped the economy and the lives of the American public.
That should be the narrative to which voters pay attention, because the economy is the single most important issue on Americans’ mind. Instead, it’s all about the sideshow. That’s what troubles me.
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#161 written by parksie555 10 months ago
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btw, you people don’t know what the hell you’re talkin’ about.
And would you please leave us alone!
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@shiloh.. btw, fili is makin’ me a tad nervous w/her overconfident presidential analysis.
Oh, c’mon. Despite polls, pols and right-wing freakouts, both Intrade and IEM (which the echidna has taught me to navigate
) now have the race at about 60–40. Romney is soon to name Pawlenty as his running mate, so we will have a Romney/Pawlenty ticket. Eeee Eeee. Even phonetically, it just screams “wishy-washy,” doesn’t it?But most important of all… if Romney doesn’t release a significant number of tax returns, he’s toast becase of the secrecy. OTOH, if he releases a significant number of tax returns, he’s toast becase of their contents.
So yeah… I’m pretty confident on this one. Buy stock in Obama.
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#164 written by parksie555 10 months ago
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MWeiss — Bill Clinton didn’t need a filibuster proof majority to
achieve some pretty solid economic growth. Nor did Ronald Reagan.Don’t be disingenuous, my friend. The opposition party that controlled Congress during Clinton’s term, and more so during Reagan’s, didn’t feel it necessary to destroy the country in order to bring down the sitting president.
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#167 written by mclever 10 months ago
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Buy stock in Obama.
Whereas it is true my ROI on the $75 I donated to Obama’s campaign in 2008, my 1st political donation ever, was huge! Again, driving conservatives bat shit crazy 24⁄7 the past (4) years alone
was easily worth $125 lol. Anyway, it’s also true Intrade got the ACA SC decision wrong!Will probably be a tad more generous this go ’round ’cause hey, I was raised a Christian!
Ohio~Ohio~Ohio
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parksie,
Bill Clinton didn’t need a filibuster proof majority to achieve some pretty solid economic growth. Nor did Ronald Reagan.
It was a different time with both of them. While Clinton was certainly loathed by Republicans, they weren’t willing at the time to sink the economy in order to prevent his reëlection. But, with my hindsight glasses on, I think it’s because they didn’t think they had to in order to prevent his reëlection. And with the comfortable margin he achieved in the 1996 election, I believe it’s a lesson they learned…never again give a Democrat the chance to have a healthy economy at the end of his first term. Partisanship in the Reagan years was kindergarten compared to now; there’s no point in even bringing it up in this context.
Don’t you think the voters would have punished the Reps in the 2010 election if they were really upset about their interference with Obama’s agenda?
Sure. I said what the narrative should be, not what it is. My point is, in fact, that the 2010 election describes exactly why we’re in the sad situation we’re in. I can still lament that, can’t I?
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#170 written by Mainer 10 months ago
Oh I have a bucket list and it does not contain just anti American Rebublicns. Number one on the list is Evan Bymeout and make me a lobyest dirt bag blue dog. So Parksie you are comfortable with a candidate that thinks partial disclosure of financial dealings are ok and according to his wife this day “you folks” have seen all you will see?
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#171 written by DrFunguy 10 months ago
A new hypothesis re. the refusal to release more tax returns. Perhaps Mr. Romney took advantage of the IRS amnesty program in 2009 for fraudulent nondisclosure of offshore income… Watch for him to release earlier returns but not 2009
the original article from Slate is http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2012/07/17/romney_s_tax_returns_is_the_2009_swiss_bank_account_amnesty_what_he_doesn_t_want_us_to_see_.html
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About Michael Weiss (325 posts)
Michael is a jack of many trades, and master of a few. His varied background includes government and private businesses, both large and small. His experience in the financial services and computer industries has led him to computer security.





Turns out you can add share of stock to your IRA. If they are added to the account while low and then gain value, voila’! If you contribute them at well-below par…
Could that be what he’s hiding???