Who Knows?
I had an interesting experience late last week. It taught me some things about where the “average voter” might stand.
Those who frequent Logarchism pay attention to this stuff all the time. Some of us seem to have intravenous feeds of CNN and CSPAN while we sleep. We assume the rest of the electorate is plugged in, too — maybe not to the extent we are, but enough to know the players and the issues, the names and the costs.
Maybe that’s not true.
When we read polls, we assume people are making judgements based on their knowledge of facts, their awareness of history, their concern for the possible effects of policy, and of what the politicians are saying about all that. In point of fact, polls may be telling us something altogether different.
I recently had some work done on my house. The building is older than I am, and that’s saying something. I do most of the repairs myself, but this time, we hired a contracting company to replace the soffits and fascia. (If you don’t know what that means, consider yourself fortunate.)
The two guys doing it were very pleasant young men in their early thirties. They’d been there for most of a week, and I frequently chatted with them after I got home from work and while they were packing up for the day. On the last day of their project, we took a walk around the house for an inspection, then completed the paperwork while standing by their truck.
I think one of them noticed the “Obama 2012″ bumper stickers my wife and I have on the backs of our cars. He asked, “So, do you think Romney or Obama is going to win?”
I didn’t know where these young guys stood in a political sense, and I’d been extremely happy with their work, so I didn’t want to get into a potential argument. I diplomatically said that I didn’t think Romney was a very good campaigner, and that he hadn’t been responding effectively to some of the ads Obama had been putting out. So, I concluded, I thought it was likely Obama would get reëlected.
The two of them looked at each other. One said, “Well, I haven’t been paying much attention yet. Still a while ’till the election, right?”
I nodded. “Not until November.”
“Plenty of time to worry about it then.” He looked thoughtful. “Hey, didn’t Hillary take Obama’s old seat in Chicago? Obama used to be a senator there, right?”
I was confused for a moment. “No, Hillary is now Secretary of State.”
I couldn’t be sure, but I’m not certain either of them knew what “Secretary of State” means. Now, these are very bright guys. I’d spoken with them before. I’d seen them work out some really challenging aspects of the repair job they did around my home. It’s a strange old house, with some odd corners and unusual landscaping. These are really smart guys.
He answered, “I’m sure someone went to Chicago.”
A light dawned. He wasn’t talking about Hillary, and he wasn’t talking about Obama’s senate seat. “Oh! You mean Rahm Emmanuel.”
Both the young guys gave me totally blank faces. Maybe they thought Rahm Emmanuel was a character from Star Wars.
I elaborated. “He used to be Obama’s Chief of Staff.” Still no recognition. I tried again. “Now he’s Mayor of Chicago.”
One of them brightened. “Yeah, like I said. I knew someone took Obama’s old seat. Obama used to be a senator there, right?”
I’m not certain, but he seemed to see no real difference between Senator from Illinois and Mayor of Chicago. After all, Chicago has something to do with Illinois. Right?
So we started joking about Chicago. A few days before, I’d told them that I grew up there. One of them had a stopover at O’Hare field a few years back, and he wanted to visit the city again some day. He asked if I knew any good restaurants. I advised him check out the observation deck at the top of Willis Tower (formerly Sears Tower).
They’d heard of Rod Blagojevich and knew he’d given Obama’s old seat to someone. They’d thought it had been Hillary. I suspect, thanks to me, they now understand it was Rahm. We agreed we all missed seeing Rod on the news. He’d been great fun.
Why am I telling this story? Those of us here who write articles, and those of us who comment on them, and our Gentle Readers who lurk and seldom (if ever) comment — we’re all political wonks. We love this stuff, and we pay attention all the time. We’ve read the Constitution, and I bet most of us could quote passages from it. We (most of us, I bet) know what the Federalist Papers are, and the Articles of Confederation. If we can’t name the first thirteen states when asked, we’d at least have the good sense to be embarrassed by it.
More: We can find Syria on a map. China, too. We at least know the order of magnitude of annual federal spending, the national debt, probably the GDP. We know what “NASA” stands for, and that more American soldiers were killed in Iraq than the number of civilians who died in the attack on the World Trade Center. We can probably name the last six presidents (probably the last ten or fifteen), in order, backwards, without even thinking about it. I admitted to these two pleasant young men that I’d been born while Eisenhower was president, and proceeded to name all the American heads of state since then — and it was quite a while before I chanced on a name they knew. They certainly couldn’t name the guys who’d held that office since their births. They didn’t even know for sure who’d held the office in the early 1980s when they were born.
I suspect most Americans don’t care all that much about any of this. It’s not that they’re uneducated, or stupid. I don’t want to give a false impression. These two guys were really bright. Really, really smart. I’d chatted with them about a whole range of things. They are funny, clever, sharp, and — it must be said — pretty damn good looking, too (and I don’t even swing that way).
They just were a lot more interested in football than in politics. (Since I’d grown up in Chicago, one of them went on about wanting to visit Soldier Field some day.) I would have been in a comparable position if they’d started talking about, say, hockey, or nearly anything connected with horseracing. Not my area, and I’m not really all that interested in it.
They didn’t really seem to care much about the upcoming election. Plenty of time to think about it later. If a pollster had asked them who they were going to vote for, their preference clearly would not have been based on any in-depth knowledge of the issues. It would have been like asking my opinion on the upcoming curling tourney. (Does curling have tourneys?)
I suspect, for most people, an opinion on, say, Obamacare is not based on any knowledge of what’s in the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, but only on a distant awareness of the term “Obamacare” having been been used as a swear word. They follow current events no more closely than they follow a TV show they don’t watch. We who follow this stuff think that polls for or against something mean that Americans have an opinion about what’s in the thing, an opinion about the issues and the politics and the arguments and facts that have been presented for and against.
It isn’t that Americans are unintelligent. They are uninformed. And, increasingly, they are disinformed. They don’t much care about politics, because they don’t see how it affects their daily lives.
Okay, I know that a single encounter with one pair of construction contractors can’t — or at least, shouldn’t — be generalized to America at large. But it brought me up short. People tend to hang with other people who have similar interests, if not similar opinions. We who care about politics might think that others who vote are also at least marginally informed concerning the issues.
I’m not sure that’s true. If I suddenly was asked to vote for a finalist on American Idol, and if I felt it was kind of my civic duty to do so, I might pick a name I’d heard. Or imagined I’d heard. Or one that sounded sexy. Or one the guys at work mentioned. I don’t know anything about American Idol. I suspect a lot of voters don’t know anything more about Afghanistan or the economy or the debt ceiling or tax rates or health care.
Do politicians count on this lack of interest and lack of information? If you were a political strategist, what would you do with this apathy? Would you try to inform people — or try to simply build an image that would make Your Guy look good, and The Other Guy look bad? Do any actual facts matter, given that a significant percentage of your consumers neither know nor care about facts?
I recall hearing Everett Dirksen when I saw him in person, running for re-election to the Senate back in the 1960s — “I don’t talk about issues. Voters don’t understand issues.” (He had a thick accent. It wasn’t “issues”. It was ishahs. It was also unnerrstan’.)
I’m voting Ashton Kirtchly off the Island. Wait — didn’t she go to Chicago?
Related articles
- Rahm Emanuel to Mitt Romney: ‘Stop Whining’ (abcnews.go.com)
- Where is Penny Pritzker? Too much of an embarrassment for Obama but not for Rahm. (preaprez.wordpress.com)
- Never let a crisis go to waste: Obama makes Aurora pit stop on West Coast fund-raising swing (twitchy.com)
- Hollywood Producer: Obama Campaign Threatened To Murder Clintons (judgementofamerica.wordpress.com)

This entry was posted by dcpetterson on July 25, 2012 at 3:00 am, and is filed under Uncategorized. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0.You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.
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Obama has made the eoncomy worse than it should be this many years removed from the recession.
Prove it. I can prove that the economy is better than it was 30 months ago. You prove it is worse than it would have been under Romney. You’re just offering opinion. I’m offering fact.
But that’s not the question. Romney said Obama made the economy worse. That is a lie. It is better. Romney lies. He told a lie here. Don’t excuse it. Don’t move the goalposts. Romney is lying. That’s just a fact.
Someone else? If successful, tax paying individuals didn’t build the roads and infrastructure, then who did?
That’s the point. Tax payers build the roads, not the “self-made millionaire.” We all did, though the tool of our government. Our roads would not exist without government. Thank you for agreeing that Romney lied about Obama’s point, and that, without government, no business succeeds.
Let’s go back to this point–
He believes government is the heartbeat and the driving force of the country, especially the economy.
And you know this is true … how? Maybe because Obama has never said any such thing,
nor has he instituted any policies that support this idea. By that argument, this is also Romney’s position, because Romney has also never said such a thing — and, in fact, this is then the position of nearly every politician America has seen. (I say “nearly” because there have in fact been a handful of socialists. Obama, of course, is not one.)When you project a policy onto someone, and that policy is contradicted by both the things that person has said, and the things that person has done, perhaps the desire for that policy is not coming from that person.
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#103 written by Max 9 months ago
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#104 written by GROG 9 months ago
DC,
I can prove that the economy is better than it was 30 months ago.
That’s not what you need to prove. You need to prove that Romney said the economy is worse now than it was 30 months ago. Since your narrative is that his campaign is based primarily on that statement, it should be very easy for you to do.
Tax payers build the roads, not the “self-made millionaire.”
“Self-made millionaires” are not tax payers?
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#105 written by rgbact 9 months ago
You’re just offering opinion. I’m offering fact.
Nah, you’re both offering opinions, you just think yours is a fact. Max actually posted some decent statements by Mitt a few weeks ago that I thought actually qualified as lies. None of yours do, I’m afraid to say. Grog did a nice job of proving that. The tax thing is close though—although I don’t count a tax holiday as a tax cut and I haven’t done the math on the cost of ACA tax hikes to the middle class.
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#106 written by Max 9 months ago
GROG,
““Self-made millionaires” are not tax payers? ”
Yes they are, but they ALONE did not build the roads. You are deliberately miscasting the point. YOU put up money for that road, as did I, as did dc, as did Joe and Bob and Bill and Sally and Jane and Sue, etc. etc. etc.. It was a GROUP EFFORT made by ALL taxpayers!! Which is Obama’s point.
So stop degrading yourself by pretending otherwise to score a cheap, intellectually dishonest, partisan point.
rgbact,
If you don’t count a tax holiday as a tax cut, then you cannot count restoring tax rates after a TEMPORARY reduction as a tax increase!
At least if you wish to be intellectually honest.
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@Grog,
You need to prove that Romney said the economy is worse now than it was 30 months ago.
Here you go. (sorry for the commercial.) There’s at least a half-dozen videos like this. Romney repeatedly claims that President Obama “made the recession worse.”
He didn’t. He has made the economy better. Romney lies.
@rgbact,
Nah, you’re both offering opinions, you just think yours is a fact.
No. Wrong. By any objective measure you wish to mention, the economy has improved since its bottom sometime in 2009. That is not opinion. That is fact. Prove me wrong.
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Grog, rgbact,
Romney has repeatedly claimed that Obama’s policies “made the recession worse.”
However, since Obama’s policies took effect, the economy has gotten better.
You are free to argue that the economy improved despite Obama’s policies, or that some other set of policies would have improved the economy faster. But to claim that Obama’s policies made things “worse” is a lie, because things got better.
Claiming things “got worse” is a lie. Plain and simple. It is a lie.
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““Self-made millionaires” are not tax payers? ”
They are, yes.
Did they build the roads all by themselves?
Did they even pay for the roads all by themselves?
Those are yes-or-no questions.
If the answer to either question is “no,” then they are not “self-made millionaires.”
Oh, and did they buy their own products? Is that where their money came from? Or did consumers (who work for other people) buy their products, and so make them rich?
Did these “self-made millionaires” sit in their parents’ basements (who bought those basements?) and make themselves into millionaires by their own hard work and force of will with no other input from anyone else?
Really?
Who paid for their school? Who paid for the church they went to? Who printed the money that people used to buy their products? Who paid for the centuries of previous technology that formed the basis for the products? Who created the radio and TV stations for them to advertize? Who invented radio? -
#110 written by GROG 9 months ago
There’s at least a half-dozen videos like this. Romney repeatedly claims that President Obama “made the recession worse.”
Obama did make the recession worse than it should have been. It’s not a lie. I notice you couldn’t find any videos where Romney said the economy is worse now than it was 30 months ago.
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#111 written by GROG 9 months ago
DC,
Sure, successful people rely on other people and other things. They wouldn’t have done it without oxygen. Their mother had to give birth to them. They consume food that a farmer may have grown.
I think this a theme that Obama really needs to push. This idea that individuals in America become successful because of other people. That individuals must rely on others, especially government, in order to become successful. I think this will really resonate with the American people.
When Obama said “If you’ve got a business. you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.”, why did he single out business owners? He believes that everyone “built that” except business owners?
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Obama did make the recession worse than it should have been.
You are entitled to that (unprovable) opinion, but that’s not what Romney said. Romney repeatedly says that President Obama inherited a recession and “made it worse.” This can only be interpreted as saying that Obama made the recession “worse,” which he did not do, and which it can be proven he did not do (the recession got better).
Sure, successful people rely on other people and other things.
And that’s what Obama said. So you and he are in agreement.
When Obama said “If you’ve got a business. you didn’t build that [bridges and roads]. Somebody else made that happen.”, why did he single out business owners?
(I added the clarification which I took directly from the previous and following sentences of the President’s remarks.) He “singled out” business owners because he was countering a specific Republican meme. Republicans are pushing the false notion that businesspeople succeed without the assistance of the rest of us (through the tool called “government” which We the People use to build infrastructure). Republicans are pushing the false idea that government stands in the way of business. President Obama was reminding us that We the People, through government investment, make business success possible.
Republicans have been advancing the ridiculous notion that “government is the enemy,” and particularly that government is the enemy of successful businesses. President Obama was countering that odd idea.
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#113 written by rgbact 9 months ago
This can only be interpreted as saying that Obama made the recession
“worse,” which he did not do, and which it can be proven he did not do
(the recession got better).
As an example–pretend your car dies out and you have it towed to the mechanic. The mechanic tells you he will fix your car but he does a crappy job, so your car will only run a few miles–then die out again.He charges you for a top job though, Meanwhile, he also pokes tiny holes in each of your tires. So, your car runs andyou are able to drive home, but the problem wasn’t really fixed and now you have other problems. So…the mechanic really made things worse.…although things seem better in the short term.
President Obama was reminding us that We the People, through government investment, make business success possible.
I think you just confirmed Grog’s whole point. Its just a different philosophy. Liberals think govt makes business possible.…conservatives think business makes govt possible. The former is essentially socialist. -
@rgbact
…your car will only run a few miles–then die out again.
So, you’re predicting disaster somewhere down the road. You’re entitled to that opinion. Meanwhile, the economy has gotten better. So, apparently you know the economy will get worse, because it is currently getting better.
This is similar to the gun lobbyists’ idea that you can tell President Obama will take our guns away in his second term, because he’s made no move to do so yet.
That’s not a convincing argument, and it doesn’t fix the false statements that Romney makes.
Liberals think govt makes business possible.…conservatives think
business makes govt possible. The former is essentially socialist.(You left out that the latter is essentially fascist.)
You are doing what Romney does, which is reading only the portion of a statement that you want to read. Examine once more what I said, which was:
President Obama was reminding us that We the People, through government investment, make business success possible.
“We the People” do this. We use government to do it, but it is We the People who do it.
Do you deny that businesses use the roads and bridges and internet and sewer systems and police protections and air traffic control — the infrastructure that we all pay for? Do you imagine a modern business could exist without these things? Do you pretend that a company could create these things themselves, without the help of We the People? Who built those roads and bridges and internet backbone and sewer systems and police departments and air traffic control systems?
Those are honest questions. I suspect you won’t bother to answer them.
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#115 written by GROG 9 months ago
You are entitled to that (unprovable) opinion, but that’s not what Romney said. Romney repeatedly says that President Obama inherited a recession and “made it worse.” This can only be interpreted as saying that Obama made the recession “worse,” which he did not do, and which it can be proven he did not do (the recession got better).
You’re really stretching things here. Obama has made the economy worse it should have been. That’s an opinion. No matter how hard you try to rationalize it, it cannot be reasonably construed as a lie. Not to mention the fact that his campaign is not primarily based on that narrative anyway. I’ll grant you that it’s based on the fact that Romney would be better for economy than Obama has been, but that certainly is not a lie either.
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#116 written by Mule Rider 9 months ago
I’m extremely reluctant to make this post, namely because I’m working hard to avoid this site at all costs. But, admittedly, like a cigarette-addiction, you people really hard to quit.
I just wanted to share this as it appears to help make both GROG’s and DC’s point. The attached chart seems to indicate that we are still lagging behind where we “should be” (how much of this you want to blame on Obama and his policies is up to you) but that we are better off, economically speaking, now than ~30 months ago.
Don’t expect any further posts from me on this matter, however. And my participation going forward will continue to be minimal, bordering on non-existent.
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Obama has made the economy worse it should have been. That’s an
opinion. No matter how hard you try to rationalize it, it cannot
be reasonably construed as a lie.But Romney did not say Obama made the recession “worse than it should have been.” He said Obama “made the recession worse.”
The first statement is an opinion (and it is your opinion). The second is a lie (and it is Romney’s lie).
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#119 written by GROG 9 months ago
DC,
But Romney did not say Obama made the recession “worse than it should have been.”
Romney did not say the economy is worse now than it was 30 months ago either. That is evidenced by your inability to find a quote where he said that.He said Obama has made the economy worse. That can be interpreted in a number of different ways. You have chose to interpret that as meaning “worse today than 30 months ago”. Just because you decide to interpret it a certain way, doesn’t translate into Romney being a liar.
When Obama said “If you’ve got a business. you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.”.…..was he lying?
Because clearly, business owners pay taxes like everyone else.
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#120 written by Max 9 months ago
GROG,
By leaving out the preceding sentences when you say “When Obama said “If you’ve got a business. you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.”.” YOU are telling HALF the truth, which, as we ALL know, so much so that it has become a cliché, is the BEST way to TELL A LIE.
So, by doing so, ANYONE, including YOU or Romney or Rush, that does that is telling a lie. Pure and simple.
You might pour a glass of water on your pants!
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Grog,
Romney said that President Obama “inherited a bad economy, and made it worse.” He said that many times. According to Romney, Obama made the economy “worse” than what Bush handed him (an economy in freefall, losing nearly 800,000 jobs every month, destined to bottom out in mid-2009) — not “worse than it could have been under someone else,” which is what you are claiming.
As for Obama’s statement that you are quoting out of context in your tu quoque response — Obama’s point was that we all pitch in to create the infrastructure that businesses need in order to be successful. (Obama even clearly said this was his point — he said, “the point is…” and then explained it — in the next few sentences after the one you are pulling out of context). His point is that businesses do not, all on their own, create the infrastructure that they need in order to thrive. And you have said you agree with that point.
We’ve been through this many times, and not adding anything new with each go-round. I think your position is clear, and I hope mine is as well. Unless you have something new to add, I invite you to have the last word, and then let’s move on to something else.
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If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The point is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together.
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Romney himself admitted that my interpretation of his statements is the correct one, and he has been forced to backtrack from that position. See here.
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#124 written by shortchain 9 months ago
Ah, but you see, a lot of people are simultaneously certain they know both what Romney meant but didn’t say and what Obama meant but didn’t say.
Personally, I think anybody who thinks they know what either Romney or Obama really believes and how they would govern as a result are fooling themselves.
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#125 written by GROG 9 months ago
As for Obama’s statement that you are quoting out of context in your tu quoque response
Call it what you want. My point was to call out your hypocrisy. You can take Romney’s statements out of context, claim you know what he meant, and no one has a problem with it.
I point out that Obama says to business owners “You didn’t build that. Someone else did”, you scream he really didn’t mean that. I took him out of context.
Tu quoque…whatever. I just find it humorous.
Here’s the full context:
We’ve already made a trillion dollars’ worth of cuts. We can make some more cuts in programs that don’t work, and make government work more efficiently…We can make another trillion or trillion-two, and what we then do is ask for the wealthy to pay a little bit more …
There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me, because they want to give something back. They know they didn’t –look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something – there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.
If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business. you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.
The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don’t do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.
So we say to ourselves, ever since the founding of this country, you know what, there are some things we do better together. That’s how we funded the GI Bill. That’s how we created the middle class. That’s how we built the Golden Gate Bridge or the Hoover Dam. That’s how we invented the Internet. That’s how we sent a man to the moon. We rise or fall together as one nation and as one people, and that’s the reason I’m running for president – because I still believe in that idea. You’re not on your own, we’re in this together.”
Like shortchain pointed out the other day, a gaffe in politics is when you accidentally tell the truth. The teleprompterless Obama accidentally let the truth slip out on this one.
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#126 written by GROG 9 months ago
Romney himself admitted that my interpretation of his statements is the correct one, and he has been forced to backtrack from that position.
First of all, these quotes you’re referencing are from over a year ago, yet you claim his campaign is based primarily on that statement. Has he not campaigned since last June or something?
Secondly, Ms. Kroll was doing the same thing you’re doing. She was trying to define for Romney that his statement compared the present economy to the one of the day Obama took office. Romney explained that he meant the economy is (was) doing very badly, much worse than it should have been doing that far removed from the recession. Like you, Ms. Kroll took him out of context and Romney explained that it’s not worse compared to early 2009, but worse than it should be due to Obama’s policies.
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On a different but related topic, Romney managed to tick off both a bunch of Palestinians and a bunch of Israelis.
I expect a president to be able to visit other nations, conduct international diplomacy, have an understanding of constitutional issues, confront international politics, be the Commander-in-Chief, know something about climate science, be credible on American interracial relations — in addition to knowing something about economics.
As far as Romney’s economics credentials, which appear to be his primary argument for himself, he doesn’t want us to look at his record at Bain, nor does he want us to see his tax returns, nor does he want us to consider his tenure as Governor (where he didn’t inhale). His economics argument appears to be I made a lot of money for myself as a venture capitalist. Therefore, I know how to run a nation’s economy. Frankly, I don’t see any particular connection between those two statements. Most particularly, I see no reason to think he’d be better at any of the tasks a president needs to do than is Barack Obama.
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#129 written by GROG 9 months ago
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#130 written by mclever 9 months ago
@dc
When I read articles like this, it makes me wonder what Republicans actually see in Romney.
The whole point of the article is that Obama is the pragmatic, moderate conservative that “conservative” voters claim they’ve wanted. Perhaps if voters were more aware of how Obama has accomplished things through moderately conservative approaches, rather than the false characterization of him as a socialist/fascist/liberal/extremist, then our campaigns could actually be adult discussions of issues rather than food fights and name-calling.
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#131 written by shortchain 9 months ago
GROG,
So, if “business makes government possible”, why hasn’t Somalia, with its thriving pirate business, a strong government? Why aren’t businesses lining up to start branches there?On the other hand, businesses have been falling all over themselves to start branches in China, which is not exactly a “weak government” nation.
Frankly, the idea that you can have business (or even private property) without a government to guarantee property rights and enforce contractual agreements is ridiculous. And the founders of this country, for example, knew that.
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#132 written by mclever 9 months ago
Can I just add that with the whole government vs. business thing, Obama is about as socialist as the Sahara is wet. Almost all of his policies as implemented have been aimed at creating a pro-business, pro-capitalist economic atmosphere, and suggesting otherwise is either ideologically blind or willfully ignorant.
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#133 written by mclever 9 months ago
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#135 written by Max 9 months ago
Yeah, about those “last two sentences in #113″ …
“The business of government is to keep the government out of business — that is, unless business needs government aid” — Will Rogers. And that was SEVENTY years ago!But seriously, folks.
“After all, the chief business of the American people (the government) is business.” by that famous liberal, Calvin Coolidge, 1st socialist President of the United States. But then Coolidge went on to say in the same speech “Of course the accumulation of wealth cannot be justified as the chief end of existence.”
So, factually, rgbact’s pigeonholing of what’s “liberal” and what’s “conservative” is off the mark, as well as his sillyassed use of “socialist”.
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#137 written by GROG 9 months ago
I must make a retraction. I did not mean the last two sentences in #113. I was referring to these two sentences:
Its just a different philosophy. Liberals think govt makes business possible.…conservatives think business makes govt possible.
I do not think Obama is a socialist. I do, however, think Obama believes government is the engine that drives America.
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#138 written by shortchain 9 months ago
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#139 written by Max 9 months ago
GROG,
Here is an example of what you and the right-wing echo chamber have been doing:
I do not think Obama is a socialist. I do, however, think Obama believes government is the engine that drives America.
I do not thinkObama is a socialist. Ido, however,think Obamabelieves governmentis the engine that drives America.Obama is a socialist. I think Obama is the engine that drives America.
In fact, YOU SAID the latter. By leaving out the relevant words that gave your statement full meaning, though, the difference between the first, TRUE statement and the latter, FALSE statement is as night and day. That is how one LIES using half the truth.
You did your credibility much harm in repeating, numerous times, your equivalent of the latter statement on this thread.
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#140 written by GROG 9 months ago
sc,
“So, if “business makes government possible”, why hasn’t Somalia, with its thriving pirate business, a strong government? Why aren’t businesses lining up to start branches there?”
It probably has to do with civil war and violence in the country. I’m not a proponent of having no central government. Interestingly enough though, Somalia’s economy grew by 40% from 2001 to 2009, post Socialist rule.
On the other hand, businesses have been falling all over themselves to start branches in China, which is not exactly a “weak government” nation.
Which happened in China as they introduced more capitalism into their economic system.
Since you want to use extreme examples like Somalia, North Korea is a better example of the dangers of a centrally planned economy.
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On the question of what “drives” America (or any country), it has to do with what aspect of the country you’re looking at.
A nation is not just its economy. A nation is also its culture(s), its science, its freedoms and diversity and religions and TV shows, its resources and its history, its literature and art.
Business “drives” some of that, government (in a democracy, that means The People) “drives” other parts, and still others grow from influences that are not primarily business or official.
I do not want businesses having anything to do with protecting (or, more usually, not protecting) my rights. I want both business and government to keep their noses out of religion (which is why I consider televangelists to be primarily conmen and not religious leaders). I do want there to be limits on how much of a free hand business interests have to screw us over, so I want effective public regulation and strong courts.
There are things businesses can do to improve a nation’s health. There are things the public sector can do. As a liberal, I see all these features (and more besides) being necessary for the common good.
So that’s a long way of saying, Grog, for me, as a liberal, rgbact’s categorization is completely false.
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About dcpetterson (186 posts)
D. C. Petterson is a novelist and a software consultant in Minnesota who has been writing science fiction since the age of six. He is the author of A Melancholy Humour, Rune Song and Still Life. He lives with his wife, two dogs, two cats, and a lizard, and insists that grandchildren are the reward for having survived teenagers. When not writing stories or software, he plays guitar and piano, engages in political debate, and reads a lot of history and physics texts—for fun. Follow on Twitter @dcpetterson






grog, “we” got you to see the light re: gay marriage. Maybe after the election you will see the light er come to terms re: mittens … or not!
take care