Who Knows?
I had an interesting experience late last week. It taught me some things about where the “average voter” might stand.
Those who frequent Logarchism pay attention to this stuff all the time. Some of us seem to have intravenous feeds of CNN and CSPAN while we sleep. We assume the rest of the electorate is plugged in, too — maybe not to the extent we are, but enough to know the players and the issues, the names and the costs.
Maybe that’s not true.
When we read polls, we assume people are making judgements based on their knowledge of facts, their awareness of history, their concern for the possible effects of policy, and of what the politicians are saying about all that. In point of fact, polls may be telling us something altogether different.
I recently had some work done on my house. The building is older than I am, and that’s saying something. I do most of the repairs myself, but this time, we hired a contracting company to replace the soffits and fascia. (If you don’t know what that means, consider yourself fortunate.)
The two guys doing it were very pleasant young men in their early thirties. They’d been there for most of a week, and I frequently chatted with them after I got home from work and while they were packing up for the day. On the last day of their project, we took a walk around the house for an inspection, then completed the paperwork while standing by their truck.
I think one of them noticed the “Obama 2012″ bumper stickers my wife and I have on the backs of our cars. He asked, “So, do you think Romney or Obama is going to win?”
I didn’t know where these young guys stood in a political sense, and I’d been extremely happy with their work, so I didn’t want to get into a potential argument. I diplomatically said that I didn’t think Romney was a very good campaigner, and that he hadn’t been responding effectively to some of the ads Obama had been putting out. So, I concluded, I thought it was likely Obama would get reëlected.
The two of them looked at each other. One said, “Well, I haven’t been paying much attention yet. Still a while ’till the election, right?”
I nodded. “Not until November.”
“Plenty of time to worry about it then.” He looked thoughtful. “Hey, didn’t Hillary take Obama’s old seat in Chicago? Obama used to be a senator there, right?”
I was confused for a moment. “No, Hillary is now Secretary of State.”
I couldn’t be sure, but I’m not certain either of them knew what “Secretary of State” means. Now, these are very bright guys. I’d spoken with them before. I’d seen them work out some really challenging aspects of the repair job they did around my home. It’s a strange old house, with some odd corners and unusual landscaping. These are really smart guys.
He answered, “I’m sure someone went to Chicago.”
A light dawned. He wasn’t talking about Hillary, and he wasn’t talking about Obama’s senate seat. “Oh! You mean Rahm Emmanuel.”
Both the young guys gave me totally blank faces. Maybe they thought Rahm Emmanuel was a character from Star Wars.
I elaborated. “He used to be Obama’s Chief of Staff.” Still no recognition. I tried again. “Now he’s Mayor of Chicago.”
One of them brightened. “Yeah, like I said. I knew someone took Obama’s old seat. Obama used to be a senator there, right?”
I’m not certain, but he seemed to see no real difference between Senator from Illinois and Mayor of Chicago. After all, Chicago has something to do with Illinois. Right?
So we started joking about Chicago. A few days before, I’d told them that I grew up there. One of them had a stopover at O’Hare field a few years back, and he wanted to visit the city again some day. He asked if I knew any good restaurants. I advised him check out the observation deck at the top of Willis Tower (formerly Sears Tower).
They’d heard of Rod Blagojevich and knew he’d given Obama’s old seat to someone. They’d thought it had been Hillary. I suspect, thanks to me, they now understand it was Rahm. We agreed we all missed seeing Rod on the news. He’d been great fun.
Why am I telling this story? Those of us here who write articles, and those of us who comment on them, and our Gentle Readers who lurk and seldom (if ever) comment — we’re all political wonks. We love this stuff, and we pay attention all the time. We’ve read the Constitution, and I bet most of us could quote passages from it. We (most of us, I bet) know what the Federalist Papers are, and the Articles of Confederation. If we can’t name the first thirteen states when asked, we’d at least have the good sense to be embarrassed by it.
More: We can find Syria on a map. China, too. We at least know the order of magnitude of annual federal spending, the national debt, probably the GDP. We know what “NASA” stands for, and that more American soldiers were killed in Iraq than the number of civilians who died in the attack on the World Trade Center. We can probably name the last six presidents (probably the last ten or fifteen), in order, backwards, without even thinking about it. I admitted to these two pleasant young men that I’d been born while Eisenhower was president, and proceeded to name all the American heads of state since then — and it was quite a while before I chanced on a name they knew. They certainly couldn’t name the guys who’d held that office since their births. They didn’t even know for sure who’d held the office in the early 1980s when they were born.
I suspect most Americans don’t care all that much about any of this. It’s not that they’re uneducated, or stupid. I don’t want to give a false impression. These two guys were really bright. Really, really smart. I’d chatted with them about a whole range of things. They are funny, clever, sharp, and — it must be said — pretty damn good looking, too (and I don’t even swing that way).
They just were a lot more interested in football than in politics. (Since I’d grown up in Chicago, one of them went on about wanting to visit Soldier Field some day.) I would have been in a comparable position if they’d started talking about, say, hockey, or nearly anything connected with horseracing. Not my area, and I’m not really all that interested in it.
They didn’t really seem to care much about the upcoming election. Plenty of time to think about it later. If a pollster had asked them who they were going to vote for, their preference clearly would not have been based on any in-depth knowledge of the issues. It would have been like asking my opinion on the upcoming curling tourney. (Does curling have tourneys?)
I suspect, for most people, an opinion on, say, Obamacare is not based on any knowledge of what’s in the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, but only on a distant awareness of the term “Obamacare” having been been used as a swear word. They follow current events no more closely than they follow a TV show they don’t watch. We who follow this stuff think that polls for or against something mean that Americans have an opinion about what’s in the thing, an opinion about the issues and the politics and the arguments and facts that have been presented for and against.
It isn’t that Americans are unintelligent. They are uninformed. And, increasingly, they are disinformed. They don’t much care about politics, because they don’t see how it affects their daily lives.
Okay, I know that a single encounter with one pair of construction contractors can’t — or at least, shouldn’t — be generalized to America at large. But it brought me up short. People tend to hang with other people who have similar interests, if not similar opinions. We who care about politics might think that others who vote are also at least marginally informed concerning the issues.
I’m not sure that’s true. If I suddenly was asked to vote for a finalist on American Idol, and if I felt it was kind of my civic duty to do so, I might pick a name I’d heard. Or imagined I’d heard. Or one that sounded sexy. Or one the guys at work mentioned. I don’t know anything about American Idol. I suspect a lot of voters don’t know anything more about Afghanistan or the economy or the debt ceiling or tax rates or health care.
Do politicians count on this lack of interest and lack of information? If you were a political strategist, what would you do with this apathy? Would you try to inform people — or try to simply build an image that would make Your Guy look good, and The Other Guy look bad? Do any actual facts matter, given that a significant percentage of your consumers neither know nor care about facts?
I recall hearing Everett Dirksen when I saw him in person, running for re-election to the Senate back in the 1960s — “I don’t talk about issues. Voters don’t understand issues.” (He had a thick accent. It wasn’t “issues”. It was ishahs. It was also unnerrstan’.)
I’m voting Ashton Kirtchly off the Island. Wait — didn’t she go to Chicago?
Related articles
- Rahm Emanuel to Mitt Romney: ‘Stop Whining’ (abcnews.go.com)
- Where is Penny Pritzker? Too much of an embarrassment for Obama but not for Rahm. (preaprez.wordpress.com)
- Never let a crisis go to waste: Obama makes Aurora pit stop on West Coast fund-raising swing (twitchy.com)
- Hollywood Producer: Obama Campaign Threatened To Murder Clintons (judgementofamerica.wordpress.com)

This entry was posted by dcpetterson on July 25, 2012 at 3:00 am, and is filed under Uncategorized. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0.You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.
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@DC… I’m voting Ashton Kirtchly off the Island. Wait — didn’t she go to Chicago?
Noooo, not Ashton… she’s the cutest one!!! (Didn’t she go to jail and work in a morgue, or something?)
Seriously, I think Unconventional is absolutely right on. A lot of people think politics happens on a level of power, wealth and corruption that has nothing to do with them and their daily lives.
I think political advisers would do well to make their election messaging less about the candidates (THEM) and more about the voter (YOU.) They should be telling voters… YOU can change this. YOU have the power. It’s up to YOU.
I also think the parliamentary system is better for participatory democracy. You don’t vote directly for a national leader at all… you just vote for your local rep and the leader of the party with the most elected reps becomes the leader of the country. It tends to keep politics much more local and relevant. Also it keeps voters focused on party and policy rather than the personalities of those at the top of the ticket.
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#3 written by rgbact 10 months ago
Sometimes I think following politics is little better than following your favorite sport. Its nothing more than an irrelevant and time consuming hobby. I suspect alot of “dumb Americans” agree. Judging by the state of the current campaign, I’d be hard pressed to say its worth anyone’s time to actually follow this nonsense. The campaigns are a food fight, Congress and Obama basically do nothing all year and will in a frantic “gotta do it or the world will end” effort, will shove thru a bunch of stuff in the lameduck that they couldn’t get done before, so as to ignore any real debate.
So yes, in an ideal world we should all stop being dumb Americans and pay attention more. But in the current world, this crap is just a nice substitute for fantasy baseball.
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rgbact,
Other than the part where “this crap” results in 200,000 Americans injured for life, I’d agree with you. Pretty rough damn fantasy baseball game.
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@rgb… But in the current world, this crap is just a nice substitute for fantasy baseball.
I totally agree. And I’ll bet that to a lot of normal people, those of us who obsessively follow politics look as weird as sports fans who paint their faces, dress up in costumes and put giant blocks of cheese on their heads.My sociological theory is that human beings are an innately aggressive and warlike species, hard-wired to be territorial and suspicious of The Other. We need to engage in regular vicious fights to protect ourselves, our loved ones and our territory. It’s what we do.
But since our wars have become so distant to most of us, so removed and non-involving and cerebral, we’ve had to find a subsitute to vent all that aggression and hostility, all that “Us Against Them” fury that is such a deep part of our nature. The substitutes for war that we’ve chosen are politics and sports. Take your pick… both of them are filled with warlike language… killing, obliterating, humiliating, winning, triumph, strategy, dominance, “take no prisoners.”
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rgbact effectively demonstrated exactly the attitude I suspected is out there. This is why we so often get elected officials who are incapable of governing. It’s also the attitude that, I suspect, certain parties want Americans to have.
A central purpose of the American constitution was to prevent power and wealth from collecting into the hands of hereditary nobility, as existed in Europe. Only an involved citizenry can achieve this goal, and telling The People that they must govern themselves was seen as the key to having an involved citizenry.
The key to uninvolving the citizenry is to convince them that politics doesn’t matter, and that even if it did, we’d be powerless to affect it.
rgbact’s comment indicates that the wannabes of the hereditary nobility have largely succeeded in this attempt. This is the purpose of the “gubmint is bad!” meme, and the drive to make politics less attractive, less important, less relevant, less substantive than a soap opera or a “reality” show.
In point of fact, for good or ill, there is not a single aspect of one’s daily life that the political health of the nation doesn’t touch. An uninvolved citizenry is relinquishing the power that our Founders seized from England. An uninvolved citizenry is an admission that The People cannot govern themselves. An uninvolved citizenry is a denial of the purpose of America.
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#7 written by rgbact 10 months ago
who paint their faces, dress up in costumes and put giant blocks of cheese on their heads.
I assume DC actually does this stuff everytime Obama gives a televised speech.
The key to uninvolving the citizenry is to convince them that politics doesn’t matter, and that even if it did, we’d be powerless to affect it.
As someone who wants to wants power to devolve away from DC, I can’t say this upsets me. The more DC becomes a perpetual food fight, the more important state politics becomes imo. Alot of action has moved to states lately (as you can tell by the parade of lawsuits and recall attempts). So I say DC politics becoming fantasy baseball might actually be a good thing and inevitable. I just need to start following local issues more I think.
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Mentioned previously in so many words my dad was quite intelligent er a jack of all trades and master of most of them, part of the greatest generation, ie he would know what soffits and fascia are as his dad was a carpenter and taught him well. Anyway, also have mentioned my dad was not political and never voted until 1992. I got the registration form, he filled it out and I mailed it. Got the absentee ballot form, he filled it out and mailed. “We” have no idea who he voted for. Bush ? Clinton ? Perot ? Bo Gritz was on the Ohio presidential ballot in ’92 so maybe Bo lol. My dad passed away in 1993.
Whereas my dad was not astute politically, he could give a seminar on WWI and WWII aircraft and the airline industry in general. And he could identify every car on the road as he was in the auto industry most of his life. He was a plane and car mechanic. He was also a classical music enthusiast. And talked about amortization nightly w/my mom. But enough about him, let’s talk about me.
Although, being a Civil War expert, my dad could tell you who America’s greatest president was, not a close call.
At family gatherings politics was never discussed. My mom was a poll worker from 1975 to a couple years ago, but she was/is not political.
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dc, it would be interesting to know if your house workers ever voted? I would guess no given the percentage of folk in America who actually vote. There’s a poster here, who shall remain nameless, who says he doesn’t vote!
As always, America survives despite itself … just damn luck.
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btw if not for the internet, I probably wouldn’t be discussing politics.
After reading dc’s article, one realizes how amusing/hilarious turdblossom’s idea of a permanent Republican majorty was. dc’s article also indicates how important likability is. FDR, Ike, JFK, Dutch, Clinton and Obama are/were very likable!
that is all …
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The more DC becomes a perpetual food fight, the more important state politics becomes imo.
That is, indeed, what they want you to think.
If you don’t believe Iraq or SCOTUS or the federal tax code affects your daily life, you’re sadly mistaken. The “perpetual food fight” is crippling the states. Much of the reason why so many state governments are at or past the point of bankruptsy is because Washington is now incapable of acting. This means your local governments are starved as well. Which means your bridges collapse, and your firemen get laid off, and you don’t have the money or power to do anything about it.
It’s not a good thing, and it’s not inevitable. It’s your choice to let our infrastructure rot.
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#10 written by MoldyMe 10 months ago
It’s not just national politics. I have been a minor elected official in my community, and while everyone has an opinion (was on the school board and the fire board), that doesn’t mean that everyone may know much or anything about the issues, governance, or even statutory requirements/limitations. Just as every US Senator and Representative probably has stories about constituents talking about strictly local issues and what the Senator/Representative will do to solve the problem, I was asked about a range of national issues when I’d talk to local groups about, say, the local school levy.
People often don’t see the need to become educated because they believe they already know.
And to all of us who do care about governance, regardless of our politics, good luck!
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Welcome, MoldyMe!
Yes, I don’t know how many times I’ve heard people talk about some aspect of politics, and say things that are simply not true. And I don’t mean things about, for example, the possible effects of some issue. I mean simple basic data about how our government works, or at what level (local, state, federal) a given function resides. How many Senators does a state get? Does the federal government set property tax levies? How much sales tax on that loaf of bread goes to the National Endowment for the Arts?
And that’s setting aside basic facts about current issues — Will people who have insurance from their employer now have to pay extra taxes or buy more insurance? Are middle-class taxes lower, or higher, under President Obama? What does the “debt ceiling” mean to the federal government? Who was president when TARP was enacted, and whose suggestion was it? What is TARP?
I would hope, regardless of political affiliation or opinion, we could at least agree on such basic facts — but we can’t even do that much, and there is an entire industry dedicated to making sure we can’t. This leads not only to misconceptions (disconceptions?) among most of the public, but also the conviction that there really are no facts out there to be known, only opinion or argument. Which leads to frustrated apathy. Which disengages the public on precisely the issues that affect them most.
Decisions are made by those who show up. If the majority of the people who show up are apathetic and disinformed, or are partisan operatives in service to corporate interests, then we get the disasters we’ve had for the last decade.
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@MoldyMe.. People often don’t see the need to become educated because they believe they already know.
Hi MM… haven’t seen you for ages! It’s so nice to see folks like you posting here… if only so I know you’re still around
I think your comment is very perceptive. I wonder how different our national, macro politics would be if everybody was required, at least once in their life, to hold some elected office down at at the micro, municipal level. That’s a real learning laboratory for what politics is all about. It teaches you how people can view the same topic from such widely divergent viewpoints… and even nice, sensible, intelligent people who are lifelong friendly neighbors can disagree strongly on a policy issue.
Actually, I guess that’s what this website does for me. I’m arrogant enough that I can tend to think my viewpoint is the only correct one… but then I read comments from people I like and respect (like GROG and rgb) and realize there are other, valid ways of looking at an issue that I haven’t given enough consideration to.
I may still believe what I believe, but I have to give some weight to their opinions, too. It’s both educational… and pretty humbling
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#16 written by fopplssiegeparty 10 months ago
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#17 written by rgbact 10 months ago
Who was president when TARP was enacted, and whose suggestion was it? What is TARP?
Or will the government lose money on TARP…which I’ve seen you get wrong repeatedly. Or which party voted more strongly in favor of TARP in Congress. And which president expanded TARP to include the auto bailouts?Btw, GM about to break a new post-IPO low price today. Ya,bailout!
As a side argument, I think financial issues are generally more complex and Americans (and definitely the MSM) have generally bad financial aptitude which leads to a fair amount of misunderstanding. Stuff like abortion or gay marriage or even immigration is more likely to be understood.
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@rgbact:
Or will the government lose money on TARP…which I’ve seen you get
wrong repeatedly. Or which party voted more strongly in favor of TARP
in Congress. And which president expanded TARP to include the auto
bailouts?Btw, GM about to break a new post-IPO low price today.
Ya,bailout!You are clearly getting into spin here, which is one of the big reasons the public isn’t aware of facts. Far too much of what is supposed to be a presentation of fact is really nothing more or less than political posturing.
To answer your questions:
Or will the government lose money on TARP…
Are you including the tax revenue from the businesses that didn’t go belly-up? How about from the continuing economic activity that didn’t stop because the largest financial institutions in the world didn’t collapse? In addition to around 80% of the TARP funds having been repaid, with interest, we’ve already seen perhaps a half-trillion in additional tax revenues that a 1930s-style collapse would have lost. So no, the government will not lose money on TARP.
Or which party voted more strongly in favor of TARP in Congress.
Democrats did. Republicans were already gearing up for the Tea Party, and the intransigence that would lead them to claim it’s okay to default on the US debt.
And which president expanded TARP to include the auto bailouts?
“Expanded?” No. No additional money was involved. President Obama saved the auto industry, and perhaps a million jobs with it. I’m not complaining. Why are you?
Btw, GM about to break a new post-IPO low price today.
Ya,bailout!Indeed, stock prices still go up and down. GM sales are soaring in the United States. But since Europe has started its austerity obsession, GM can’t make the sorts of overseas sales it might otherwise. European economies have stalled, and yes, that even hurts American companies. (By the way, GM would be doing better still if Republicans hadn’t stood in the way of the American Jobs Act.)
Happy?
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Meanwhile, back in the real economy and today’s news…
Caterpillar reports a 67% increase in profits over last year, says global economy is improving and “we’re a long way from 2008.”
And notorious housing bear Zillow says, for the first time in years, that the housing market has now bottomed out and is finally on the upswing.
Maybe the economy really is poised to turn around. If so (as shiloh always says…) how DID Barack Obama get so damn lucky?
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Here are links to a couple of articles attempting to present some fact (in opposition to spin) or to reveal spin (which was masquerading as fact).
Is it any wonder the public is disengaged, when fact is so hard to come by?
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#21 written by shortchain 10 months ago
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fili, Obama was born under a lucky star
dont’cha know. He’s one of those new fangled uppity Dems.Re: turdblossom and his permanent majority pipe dream. He should have known better having got a country bumpkin from TX elected president how fickle voters can be lol.
btw, every time mittens opens his mouth, with or w/out a script, Obama becomes luckier!
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I get such a kick out of those Republicans who post comments at Yahoo Finance (the site I linked to in my last post.)
They are all FURIOUS at any suggestion the economy is improving. “It is not! These guys are nuts! The economy is worse than ever! Yahoo has jumped the shark, posting this drivel!”
Really, I have to feel sorry for these guys. It must be terrible to consider yourself a “patriot” and yet be forced to root for your own country to fail because that’s the only way you can win an election.
The internal conflict must be excruciating. I can hardly imagine it.
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@shiloh… Obama was born under a lucky star
I think you’re right.… and that’s why I’m pretty certain my worst nightmare will not come to pass. That would be the economic recovery (which has already begun) taking hold and strengthening in the fall after Republicans have won re-election on the fact of this long recession.They would then smugly claim all credit for the turnaround, which would be just too galling to endure after they caused the mess in the first place.
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filistro, I’m sure your nightmare scenario is precisely what Republicans are hoping for. And to make sure it happens, I predict Republicans in Congress will double down on their obstructionism up until the election — and if they win control of Congress and/or the Presidency, they’ll suddenly discover the need for stimulus packages (which they’ll call something else, of course — “Patriot Packages”?)
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#27 written by rgbact 10 months ago
yet be forced to root for your own country to fail because that’s the only way you can win an election.
I think you confuse “rooting for failure” with “don’t piss on my leg and tell me its raining”. Given you’ve been predicting an impending economic boom for like 2 years now, I’m going with the latter applies to your Yahoo friends.
Which again brings up another reason for being misinformed. Media is so distrusted these days, even basic things are questioned and people eventually tune all info out.
Obama was born under a lucky star
In what country though?
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@rgb… I think you confuse “rooting for failure” with “don’t piss on my leg and tell me its raining”
Wrong, rgb. There are some pretty unambiguous signs the economy is finally beginning to recover… and when heavy hitters like Caterpillar and Zillow are starting to agree (and showing the numbers to prove it) then I think it’s going to become increasingly harder for you guys to keep denying it.
DC… “Patriot Packages” would be a dream come true for Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert! They’d have as much fun as some of the friskier Republican bloggers did with that short-lived 2008 Democratic slogan.. “New Direction For America.” (You have to say it aloud to fully appreciate it
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Which again brings up another reason for being misinformed. Media is
so distrusted these days, even basic things are questioned and people
eventually tune all info out.True. FOX has a lot to do with that. I think it’s intentionally done.
In what country though?
That punchline was funny about four years ago (for people who like that sort of ‘humor’). It’s boring now.
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@DC… LOL!
“Vote Republican, we have Patriot Packages! Our codpieces are colossal!”
I think that’s actually what Romney is referring to when he keeps saying it’s important to “show American strength.” It’s the national equivalent of hanging a set of rubber testicles from the back bumper of your monster truck.
I mean… who in their right mind could fail to be impressed by that?
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#34 written by rgbact 10 months ago
True. FOX has a lot to do with that. I think it’s intentionally done.
I need to go find that thread where you said you listened to CNN’s Trayvon Martin tapes and were sure Zimmerman said “frickin coons”. We believe what we want to believe. I think the media has figured that much out. Now they just peddle news accordingly.
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#35 written by Unconventional 10 months ago
Since I sold my car, I am a frequent bus rider and have taken time to talk with some of the other riders. Today, one of them (affectionately called Bus Crush) said this to me: Obama was on a call to the Russian Prime Minister and did not realize the conversation was being recorded. Obama promised the Russian Prime Minister he would disarm America after he is reëlected. Then said as soon as Obama is out of office, Bus Crush will be able to go back to work full time. (as in the economy will prosper significantly in January — maybe he meant November)
Good Luck.
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rgbact, to some extent yes, newsentainment programming is geared toward pulling in consumers for the advertisers, and doing through selling bias confirmation. There used to be actual news on the air. Morrow and Cronkite and Rather were giants.
But do not pretend to deny that FOX wasn’t a leader in creating a propaganda channel, and don’t even try to draw a false equivalence to anyone else. That dog don’t hunt. FOX went to court to ensure their right to broadcast intentional lies and call it “news” under the guise of “free speech.” Such audacious mendacity does not compare to anything short of Orwellian thought control.
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rgbact,
I need to go find that thread where you said you listened to CNN’s Trayvon Martin tapes and were sure Zimmerman said “frickin coons”.
Listen to it for yourself. The first word is most certainly not “frickin”. And it’s not what I wanted to hear; moreover, it’s most certainly a far cry from the defensive claim that the second word was “punks”. I mean, seriously.
Unless he pronounces “punks” like “poons” (and think of where one could go with that), he most certainly did not say “punks”. Even if my life depended on hearing the word “punks”, I wouldn’t be able to hear that word. -
#38 written by fopplssiegeparty 10 months ago
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I’m really torn about this. On the one hand, I’d far prefer that voting be limited to those who are well-informed (perhaps limiting the votes to just me would suffice). On the other hand, it’s impossible to develop a metric that can be used as an accurate metric for being well-informed. And, of course, in the past, such a notion was used as a subjective means of keeping Republican voters out of the polling places in the South.
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#40 written by tikitorchesoniglooporches 10 months ago
This site went live in 2010? Well gosh, if that’s the case, then I guess I’ve been stalking since the very beginning. I’ve occasionally considered posting but usually I either feel that I don’t have something of substance to contribute or someone else has already stated my opinion better. I would consider myself a middleweight political junkie who follows the news incessantly when I have the opportunity but my civilian job takes me out into the wilderness for weeks at a time without access to modern conveniences like the internet or cell service. Regardless, I’ll submit something that I think is at least anecdotically interesting if not representative of a larger trend in the United States.
I was in the school house for my MOS (I’m a reservist) about a year ago where we would spend about as much time watching internet videos as we would learning about how to troubleshoot communications gear when the instructor played the following for us:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNZczIgVXjgI don’t recall what prompted his playing of this video, but afterwards he did go into a bit of a tirade about stupid Congressmen and ridiculous Democrats in general and specifically their obstruction to military funding. During the course of his comments, some of his phrasing and nomenclature seemed a bit off to me. At the end of the period of instruction, I approached him for a follow up conversation. It became evident to me during which that he lacked a basic understanding of civics, such as the difference between Representatives and Senators, how long they’re elected for, the bicameral nature of the legislature, etc. Now, is the instructor entitled to his opinion, absolutely. Should he be using his position as a military instructor to mostly young recent enlistees to profess his views regarding politics when its not pertinent to the scheduled subject matter, especially when he demonstrates a clear lack of understanding of governmental structure, that’s an entirely different discussion.
My point is, that despite the contractors’ lack of knowledge on certain points, if dcpetterson hadn’t been so diplomatic and had engaged in a more potentially inflammatory political conversation it may have been discovered that despite their lack of knowledge they most certainly held opinions but were willing to maintain the polite nature of the discussion. I would contend that this is where a significant portion of the population falls into this arena, that they have their views and have a general idea of where the two major party platforms stand and vote more or less with whichever they represents them more (that they disagree with/feel disenfranchised by less?). Not having a mastery of civics and general knowledge doesn’t necessarily indicate political dispassion but there may be a correlation to how well informed their opinions may be. -
#41 written by rgbact 10 months ago
I did, and I listened to CNN’s accusation.…and their correction. And frankly it scares me to know that people’s justice potentially lies in the hands of people so willing to be led to conclusions. I certainly hope in court they don’t present tapes like this with the leading question “do you think this sounds like the person said X”. But again, CNN knows what people want to believe, and they give it to them.
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tikitorches! You delight me in more ways than I can name, but I’ll give it a try…
1.) I love your username. Tiki torches on igloo porches? What a concept!
2.) you’re very, very smart
3.) you’re balanced and thoughtful, and can see both sides of the divide
4.) you write exceedingly well (always a plus for me)
5.) you spend weeks in the wilderness without access to the Internet… sigh…
6.) you’ve been hanging around for years but I’ve never met you. I thought I had talked to everybody, even the lurkers, at least once, and it’s great to learn there are folks out there we’ve never heard from
7.) your excellent post might just coax some other lurkers out into the open. C’mon guys, it’s fun and easy and we’d love to hear from you!
I could go on, but I don’t want to embarrass you (ooops, too late
) Anyhow, welcome, and don’t be shy from now on. You most certainly DO have worthwhile things to say… you just proved it.
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tikitorches, welcome, and thank you for posting!
Let me start by saying “Yeah, that!” to what filistro said.
Additionally — I didn’t necessarily mean to imply that the young men I spoke with didn’t have an opinion. I didn’t really ask for one, and you’re right, had I been more confrontational I might have elicited one. My point had more to do with being informed. I’m not sure if “being uninformed and having no opinion” is better or worse than “having an uninformed opinion.” I’ll leave that question to others.
Nor did I ask whether they were going to vote, though the unsolicited reaction “There’s time yet to decide” implied to me that they planned to.
I think my main point was, as I alluded to, current polls might not reflect carefully-considered opinions. That doesn’t mean they don’t reflect deeply-held beliefs. Just that us junkies don’t quite have the same mindset as some of the more casual observers.
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Further to tiki’s post… I do have to say, I worry quite a lot that Guam might tip over.
It’s the same fear I have on cruise ships when somebody shouts “Whales!!” and everybody rushes over to the other deck to look out. Especially on a cruise ship, where everybody is eating so much. That’s a lot of poundage concentrated on one side.
Hey… it could happen, you know.
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#45 written by Max 10 months ago
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#47 written by rgbact 10 months ago
What do you wish to go on the record as that which you believe Zimmerman said:
Same thing CNN says he said when they corrected their first broadcast. And even that I sure wouldn’t swear to in court. I wouldn’t even swear to the first word. Btw, ABC has also corrected themselves and the CO shooter isn’t a TP’er, in case you missed that too.
But do not pretend to deny that FOX wasn’t a leader in creating a propaganda channel,
I’m not sure.Was FOX the trailblazer, and then every other channel decided to follow/counterbalance their partisanship or is FOX just a conservative refuge in the wilderness. I lean to the latter, but its hard to tell.
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rgbact,
And even that I sure wouldn’t swear to in court. I wouldn’t even swear to the first word.
Fortunately, nobody but Zimmerman has to swear to anything in court regarding that phrase. The jury will be permitted to hear the recording, and will then draw their own conclusions. And, should he choose to testify, Zimmerman will most likely be asked to state what words he used. Should he then say “fucking punks”, he’s probably going to have a credibility problem.
Bottom line, then, is that you are just as inclined to believe he said “pepperoni pizza”. Am I correct?
Btw, ABC has also corrected themselves and the CO shooter isn’t a TP’er, in case you missed that too.
And apparently you missed what ABC said in the first place, which was that there was a TPer in Aurora with that name, but they made it clear that they had no idea whether or not it was the same person.
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#49 written by Max 10 months ago
Well, I don’t give a damn about CNN, or hiding behind their cover.
1) There is no doubt he said “fucking”, that is quite clear!
2) the consonant of the second word is a gutteral, not a labial, therefore “punks” is ruled out, leaving “cold” and “coons” as possibilities. The pronunciation he uses of the vowel is NOT the “o” as in “coke” but the “oo” as in “food”. That leaves out “cold”.
3) The choices of english words remaining then would be: cool, coon, coop, coot and plain old coo. Is there ANY reasonable combination of ANY of those words, excepting “coon” that would be used in conjunction with the expletive “fucking”?4) I don’t think so.
BTW, you still refusing to accept my wager?
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#50 written by DrFunguy 10 months ago
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Was FOX the trailblazer, and then every other channel decided to
follow/counterbalance their partisanship or is FOX just a
conservative refuge in the wilderness. I lean to the latter, but
its hard to tell.You are joking, right? You’ve got a puckish sense of humor
First, as far as “every other channel decided to follow/counterbalance”, it’s hardly “every”, more like one or two (and they’re doing a mighty poor job of it, because everyone else also includes contrary voices).
And for “refuge in the wilderness,” that is the most absurd thing I’ve ever heard. Kool-aid is cheap. The media would have to move far to the left to be centrist.
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By the way, rgbact, I asked you on another thread, I think you missed it. Does it matter to you that Romney’s campaign rhetoric is primarily based on lies?
I was reminded of this, because FOX is primarily about promulgating lies as well. Does that bother you? Or are you okay with the primary conservative voice in the media being almost entirely dishonest?
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rgbact,
You must’ve missed this Logarchism article from last winter, which covers the history of FOX News. -
It’s important to note (and I don’t know where else to do it) that today Senate Republicans voted against tax cuts for income under $250,000 / year.
Write that down.
Also, the version of the renewal of the Violence Against Women Act that is acceptable to House Republicans excludes lesbians, native Americans, undocumented immigrants, and college students.
Odious people have hijacked the Republican Party. Republicans have moved an enormous distance off they rightward cliff, while Democrats have remained in about the same place for decades. Any attempt to cast this as “increasing partisanship” is misguided at best, and intentional disrepresentation at worst.
The insane right has staged a coup. That is the truth.
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#56 written by rgbact 10 months ago
dc, it’s like you are asking rgbact/grog etc. ~ when are you gonna stop beating your wife?
When even Shiloh can pick up on your partisan games, thats sad. Anyway, I told Max awhile back to write an article documenting all the “lies”. Some are fair game, I’ll admit. I’ve responded to a few before.
You must’ve missed this Logarchism article from last winter, which covers the history of FOX News.
I’m not necessarily saying FOX is pure. From a conservative perspective, its merely the only major news source thats bearable and I shudder to think of life without it.
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rgbact,
I meant this comment in particular:
I’m not sure.Was FOX the trailblazer, and then every other channel
decided to follow/counterbalance their partisanship or is FOX just a
conservative refuge in the wilderness. I lean to the latter, but
its hard to tell.In short, it’s the former.
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#60 written by Max 10 months ago
rope-a-dope
I note that rgbact refuses to specifically state for the record what HE THINKS he heard Z say.
And a simple “no, thank you” would resolve the matter of the offered wager.
“ Anyway, I told Max awhile back to write an article documenting all the “lies”. ”
I beg your pardon? You “told” me? Excuse me, sir, but you’re NOT my father, nor my commanding officer. You may have “asked” me such a favor, but I believe that responded that I was NOT going to do your research for YOU. If you wish to do an article for which you do the research, then provide the counter argument, you (hopefully) are adult enough and intelligent enough to do so. It seems, though, that you have some fear of taking a real stand on anything that you cannot explain with simple soundbites you picked up on your favorite news channel.
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#62 written by Max 10 months ago
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#64 written by GROG 10 months ago
DC,
Does it matter to you that Romney’s campaign rhetoric is primarily based on lies?
Does it matter to you that Obama lies?
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jul/25/barack-obama/romney-abortion-rape-incest/ -
#65 written by mclever 10 months ago
@GROG
Considering that Obama has over 350 statements analyzed by PolitiFact, and you happened to pick out one of the 6 that has ever gotten the “Pants on Fire” rating while nearly half of his statements have been rated as “True” or “Mostly True”, and further considering that Mitt Romney has fewer than 150 statement analyzed by PolitiFact, and already 13 (more than twice as many as Obama) have been rated as “Pants on Fire” while barely 30% have been rated “True” or “Mostly True”, I don’t think that using PolitiFact as a reference helps your case in trying to convince anyone that Romney is more truthful than Obama.
Oh, and most of the folks here are too smart to fall for a tu quoque argument anyway.
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#66 written by GROG 10 months ago
mclever,
I didn’t just happen to pick that one statement. He just said it this past Tuesday and I remembered reading the article. Nor am I trying to convince anyone that Romney is more truthful than Obama. I have a distrust of all politicians, Democrat and Republican. They all lie.
For DC to make these partisan statements like “Romney’s campaign is primarily based on lies”, is absurd hackery and most of the folks here are too smart to fall for it.
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Grog, I’ve never been impressed by Politifact. I don’t think I’ve ever quoted them. I don’t view them as an authority. If you want to discuss a particular one of their claims, I’d be happy to do so. In the case you point to, I don’t see a “lie” because Romney has been pretty damn slippery on the issue, has changed his position several times, and the statement from the Obama campaign is a reasonable interpretation of (one of) Romney’s position(s). I note that even Politifact can’t seem to find Romney’s campaign denying the charge.
The bigger problem here is that Romney is slippery and dishonest.
You avoided my question about Romney (which I’d asked rgbact, not you, so you’re free to avoid it). But I“ll ask you, since you stepped into the discussion. Does it bother you that Romney’s campaign messages are primarily based on lies?
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Politifact’s agenda er accuracy aside, mittens is a compulsive liar on a good day.
Taking into consideration politically Romney just ain’t very smart ie he seldom thinks before he speaks, not that that would help him much lol.
And did I mention he’s also not likable …
>
grog, you’re 100% commited to voting for mittens notwithstanding, do you have any clue what America’s première flip/flopper is gonna do if he’s elected president? Rhetorical.
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#69 written by mclever 10 months ago
@GROG
Saying that all politicians lie is just another form of a tu quoque dodge. It clouds the issue with false equivalency. Sure, all politicians lie, but just based on the PolitiFact site (which you conveniently directed us to), some of those politicians lie more substantially and with much greater frequency than others. Only 16% of Obama’s statements over the past four years have been rated as “False” or “Pants on Fire”, while Romney has already racked up an impressive 26% falsehoods. If you don’t like PolitiFact’s numbers, I can assure you that other fact-checking sites show similar relative numbers, even if their scores on particular items don’t always match up exactly the same.So, understanding that DC tends to be a bit hyperbolic with his penchant for pretty prose (hey, he is a writer), why not address the crux of his question? Does it bother you to be supporting someone who apparently lies so much more frequently than does his opponent? Or is that not a concern to you, because you think the political victory will be more important than the integrity of the person in the office?
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#70 written by Max 10 months ago
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#71 written by GROG 10 months ago
DC,
But I“ll ask you, since you stepped into the discussion. Does it bother you that Romney’s campaign messages are primarily based on lies?
The question is nothing but a load of partisan hackery. Since it doesn’t deserve an answer (his campaign messages are not primarily based on lies), I won’t give one.
If you had asked me if it bothers me that Romney lies, I would have answered “yes”.
It also bothers me that we have a President who lies.
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#72 written by GROG 10 months ago
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The question is nothing but a load of partisan hackery.
No, I am genuinely curious. Romney’s campaign is based primarily on lies. Let me demonstrate.
Romney’s main argument is that supposedly President Obama has been bad for the economy. Romney claims he (Romney) would be better. We have to kind of take his word on that, because Romney isn’t letting us look at how he handles finances, and Romney has already said that his time in government (“I didn’t inhale”) should not be considered. Thus, we have to merely take Romney’s claims about himself on faith. That’s not a lie, certainly, but it does mean that half of his argument (I’d be better) cannot be assessed. So instead, we can only consider Romney’s claims about Obama. Let’s do that.
They are virtually all lies.
Example: Romney said, repeatedly, that Obama inherited a bad situation “and made it worse.” That’s a lie. The economy has improved markedly under Obama. Compare today to the bottom of the Bush recession, somewhere around 6 to 12 months after Obama took office (Romney himself said just the other day that you can’t consider a president’s record until beginning about 6 to 12 months after taking office) and by any measure you name, the economy is better, not worse. Obama did not take a bad situation and make it worse. He took a terrible situation and made it a whole lot better. Romney lies.
Example: Romney claims the stimulus “didn’t work.” That’s a lie. By all nonpartisan estimates, the stimulus bill created or saved around three million jobs, minimum. It even followed almost precisely what the people who proposed it in January ’09 said it would do (I have a link upthread about that, and Michael has written on this too). So Romney’s claims about the stimulus are false. Romney lies.
Example: Romney tried to paint a narrative that under Obama, jobs for women have been lost, trying to argue that Obama’s policies have been bad for women. That’s a lie. By the same measure as above (6 to 12 months after the president takes office), women have gained jobs, just as men have. Further, in any recession, men tend to lose jobs first, so the fact that women lost more jobs later is not due to Obama’s policies, but to the way the economy works. Romney lies.
Example: Romney keeps implying that under Obama, taxes for the middle class have increased. That’s a lie. Under Obama, taxes for the middle class have decreased, on the order of $3600 / year for the average American family. Romney lies.
Example: just last week, the “you didn’t build that” flap, flat-out saying that Obama claimed people who build companies don’t build those companies. That’s a flat-out lie. I needn’t elaborate. Romney lies.
Example: Romney keeps claiming that deficits have increased under Obama. That’s a lie. For every year of Obama’s presidency, deficits have decreased as compared to the last year (FY09) of Bush’s presidency. Romney lies.
It goes on and on. I can’t think of a single narrative about President Obama that Romney has pushed that is not a flat-out lie. His campaign is based on the narratives that he wants to construct about Obama. Those narratives are a lies, and based on lies. This is not a question of “interpretation”. They are lies.
Before you attempt any sort of tu quoque argument “but but but but Obama does it too!!!” please answer if it bothers you that Romney has such a dishonest and false set of narratives as the primary basis for his candidacy.
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#74 written by rgbact 9 months ago
Grog, I’ve never been impressed by Politifact. I don’t think I’ve ever quoted them.
Which is pretty much why I said someone should write an article on “lies” so we can form our own opinion. Not too crazy about using the term lies. Yes, people stretch/slant arguments and facts to best make their cases. I don’t count that as lying. Also, some “lies” just aren’t material.
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@mclever,
So, understanding that DC tends to be a bit hyperbolic with his penchant for pretty prose (hey, he is a writer)
Thanks for the kind thoughts
In this particular case, I chose my words carefully. Knowing that the question was kind of inflammatory, I tried to avoid being too over-the-top in a way that would discredit the question itself.
For instance, I asked how rgb felt about Romney’s campaign rhetoric being primarily based on lies. I didn’t say “completely lies”, but “based on lies”; nor did I say “all of them”, but rather “primarily.” I wanted to leave open the possibility that some of Romney’s statements are true.
I did use the harsh word “lies” because “misleading” or merely “false” is rather too gentle, especially considering the strength of the rhetoric Romney has used. I didn’t want to be misunderstood. Saying something one knows to be false is a “lie”, and I see no reason to sugarcoat that.
As I attempted to demonstrate in #73, the main thrust of Romney’s argument for himself (ie., Obama has been bad for the economy) is based on a series of narratives that are, at their heart, lies. I don’t know any more clearer way to say that.
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#76 written by shortchain 9 months ago
Politifact lost whatever credibility it might have had when it claimed that the Paul Ryan budget proposal would not end Medicare. Sure — replacing a single-payer system covering everybody over 65 with a system in which the elderly are given a lower amount of money and then told “go find your own insurance” isn’t a fundamental change.
I will never trust them again.
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#77 written by tikitorchesoniglooporches 9 months ago
@ dcpetterson
I went back and reread
your article. I feel at some point I lost sight of your thesis and ended up
rephrasing much of what you said using a somewhat similar anecdote (differing
in degree to which people tipped their hands). I did get the impression as well
that the contractors in your example were intending on voting (or at least
didn’t want to appear they didn’t plan to fulfill their civic duty before someone who clearly would) but read
their long time til November comment as a polite place holder as to not offend.
Given their knowledge of your support for Obama and their lack of reinforcement
of it, I would interpret that as they are either already planning on voting for someone
else or are truly undecided at this point.If they are undecided, then it could certainly be because of
a limited background on the matter and a general indifference resultant from
not seeing how it directly affects their daily lives. I think that you have
clearly outlined why a significant portion of the population is not buried as
deep in the news as political junkies and therefore arguably less well
informed.After reading,
“When we read polls, we assume
people are making judgments based on their knowledge of facts, their awareness
of history, their concern for the possible effects of policy, and of what
the politicians are saying about all that. In point of fact, polls may be
telling us something altogether different.”I was anticipating an
explanation of what the polls may actually be telling us, hence my claim that
they are providing us with the deeply held political opinions of people that
may not eyeballs deep in politics or particularly well informed but whose
convictions are driven by other motivating influences. -
Thank you, tikitorches.
The points you raise on the conversation I had are important touchpoints, I think. It certainly is possible they planned to vote for someone else, and were being polite as well. I think a central point of my article is to underline the apparent lack of knowledge they displayed on one specific current event, and what that appeared to say about their knowledge in related areas.
As I say, this doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t have an opinion, or don’t plan to vote, only that since political wonkiness didn’t seem to be their area of interest, any opinions they do have are likely to be less well-informed than us wonks might have thought.
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#79 written by Max 9 months ago
“
Which is pretty much why I said someone should write an article on “lies” so we can form our own opinion. “Then WRITE the damned article yourself and quit whining like a 2 year old child because someone licked the red off of their candy cane!!!! You ARE intelligent enough and capable of research (according to YOU), aren’t you?
Or do you wish to go on record admitting your own incompetence?
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DC,
since political wonkiness didn’t seem to be their area of interest, any opinions they do have are likely to be less well-informed than us wonks might have thought.
And this is one reason we shouldn’t expect to see much movement yet in the polls from the Bain kerfuffle. Or from someone insinuating that Obama insinuated that nobody is really capable of building a business. Or from Zynga losing 30% of its market capitalization this week…if that would have any impact.
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#81 written by rgbact 9 months ago
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rgbact, mittens obsessive serial lying aside, why are you here? Indeed, we get it that you don’t like Obama and wouldn’t vote for him if he was runnin’ unopposed.
Again, what are you “trying” to accomplish? Seriously, do you enjoy “our” company? MW’s political analysis?
Are you addicted …
Not being able to live w/out fixednoise notwithstanding lol.
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#84 written by GROG 9 months ago
DC,
Romney’s main argument is that supposedly President Obama has been bad for the economy. Romney claims he (Romney) would be better. We have to kind of take his word on that, because Romney isn’t letting us look at how he handles finances,You have said numerous times yourself that personal and business finaces are not run like the government. Why in heaven’s name would his personal tax returns show if he would be good or bad for the economy?
Romney keeps claiming that deficits have increased under Obama. That’s a lie.
Bush’s deficits ageveraged $604 billion. Obama’s deficits have averaged $1.3 trillion. Deficits have increased under Obama.The economy has improved markedly under Obama.
The unemployment rate is higher today than it was when Bush left office. UE reached 10% a year after Obama took office. We have a record number of Americans on food stamps under the Obama presidency. We have a record number of Americans on disability under the Obama presidency. The workforce is shrinking under the Obama presidency. A fewer percentage of Americans are employed today than when Bush left office. We are now in the 41st consecutive month of unemployment being over 8% under Obama’s leadership. Bush did not have such a horendous record.Obama refuses to run his campaign based on his economic record. Enough said.
I don’t have time tonight to deal with your other “examples” of Romney lies.
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@Michael,
And this is one reason we shouldn’t expect to see much movement yet in
the polls from the Bain kerfuffle. Or from someone insinuating
that Obama insinuated that nobody is really capable of building a
business. Or from Zynga losing 30% of its market capitalization
this week…if that would have any impact.Absolutely. I agree completely.
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Just looking over DC’s list.…he’s got 6 items from Romney. I don’t consider any of them a lie.
They’re all false. Romney knows they’re false. In what way is that not lies? You must understand the word “lie” in some other sense.
And let me make my point again, because your article, as you’ve suggested it, won’t address my issue. I’m not simply saying that Romney lies (although he does). The point is that the basis for his campaign is lies. Without his lies, he has no campaign. He has no purpose for running. He has no political position or appeal for his own presidency. Without his lies, he’s nothing but a retired vulture capitalist.
If you do succeed in pointing out some lies from other people, that won’t affect my central point. Whether others have made false statements for the purpose of advancing a political agenda isn’t the point.
My point is that Romney’s campaign is based on lies. Your tu quoque argument isn’t going to touch that.
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You have said numerous times yourself that personal and business
finaces are not run like the government. Why in heaven’s name would
his personal tax returns show if he would be good or bad for the
economy?Romney is the one who claims his financial experience is applicable. Let his make his argument. He won’t, though, which means he has absolutely no argument in favor of himself.
Bush’s deficits ageveraged $604 billion. Obama’s deficits have
averaged $1.3 trillion. Deficits have increased under Obama.Now you’re changing the subject. Obama has decreased the deficit from what he was given. Bush handed him structural deficits of over $1.5 trillion annually, and Obama has reduced that. You know that’s true. Don’t be disingenuous. It’s not becoming.
The unemployment rate is higher today than it was when Bush left office.
Again, don’t be disingenuous. The unemployment rate from Bush’s recession topped out at over 10%, and you know it. Please don’t pretend otherwise
We have a record number of Americans on food stamps under the Obama
presidency. We have a record number of Americans on disability
under the Obama presidency. The workforce is shrinking under the
Obama presidency. A fewer percentage of Americans are employed
today than when Bush left office.Thank you for reminding us how badly Bush’s Republican policies screwed up the nation. Even with more than two years of steady improvement, things are not back to where they were.
You are trying to set Jan 20, 2009 as the beginning date to which you compare today’s statistics. That is a willfully dishonest thing for you to do, and you know it. Please don’t insult yourself further by continuing to do that. We all know you’re better than that.
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Grog, we’ve argued economics before. You have gone around with me, with Michael, with Mule, with all of us.
Looking at the record of any president, one never starts on his inauguration day. It’s common to give at least a year until one begins to measure the effect of a president’s policies. Even you do that, when looking at historical data.
And you know this is not mere convention. You know very well it takes that long to change the direction of a ship the size of the US economy.
So stop with the intentionally false statistics you’re presenting. You wouldn’t let anyone else get away with that, in assessing the record of any other president. Be honest, even where Romney cannot. I dare you.
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#89 written by rgbact 9 months ago
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Grog, if you want some realistic stats –
In the last 27 months of the Obama recovery, we’ve seen almost three times as many jobs created as Bush managed in eight years.
In three years, President Obama has reduced the annual deficit by nearly a half trillion dollars. In Bush’s first three years, he increased the annual deficit by nearly a half trillion dollars. Then he increased it again by more than a trillion dollars before handing the reins over to Obama.
The unemployment rate went from about 5% after Bush had been in office about a year to over 10% when the Bush recession peaked. Obama has brought it down to around 8%.
The DJIA was around 9800 after Bush had been in office a year. It peaked in October of 2007 at around 14,000. It bottomed out from the Bush recession in March of ’09 at about 6500. By January of 2010 it was back up to around 10,000, and is now close to 13,000, after a recent peak around 13,200.
You have to really struggle to find a single measure of the economy that has not improved since the bottom point of the Bush recession in mid-to-late 2009. Please don’t pretend otherwise.
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logarchism’s few cons always announce they are laying low, or like grog, say they are totally done, usually when they are in over their head(s) politically or have no rational retort to the current discussion aside …
grog, Romney told Brian Williams yesterday, in so many words, he would continue the Bush economic policies which almost led America over the cliff in 2008⁄2009.
Indeed, the worst recession since the Great Depression would naturally lead to more folk on food stamps, high unemployment for a longer period, especially w/an obstructionist, do nothing congress, etc.
>
Again, why do cons always feel compelled to announce their vacations er permanent exits, whereas libs never do? Rhetorical. btw again, part of the fun of being a liberal is “we” hardly ever “leave” regardless.
Lather, rinse, repeat …
>
Also grog, your disingenuousness er anti-Obama rant would have more oomph er effect, if polls er Gallup didn’t indicate voters still blame Bush more than Obama for the current economy …
The current numbers show 68 percent of the public blames the former president while 52 percent say Obama deserves the blame.
And we all know how grog loves polls!
take care grog
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#92 written by mclever 9 months ago
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#93 written by Max 9 months ago
“If I write the article it’ll be about Obama’s lies though. But maybe I’ll check out what Factcheck.org has identified as lies for Romney.”
“
when Max starts pestering me things won’t end well. I’ll lay low for awhile ”I didn’t really see the “If” at the beginning as an escape module. But I do see that my skepticism was justified. No hypoxia for me!
mc, I well understand shiloh’s frustration. I, and I’m sure he, wants nothing more than for us to have a strong, vocal conservative presence here. But we want them to CONTRIBUTE, not just repeat talking points (we hear and read them constantly and easily recognize them), but to make reasonable arguments having factual and logical bases. (And those arguments ARE out there! Agree or not, the 2nd Amendment debate the other day is a good example of that.) Tired of the pablum, I request, then beg, then plead, to no avail before I begin the sarcastic bombasts. Yesterdays sequence over rg’s “reticence”, as noted by several people, is an prime example.
I am the absolute last person to wish rgbact or ANY of the conservative voices to bail out, but they should contribute.
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#94 written by GROG 9 months ago
DC,
In your accusations regarding the Romney campaign, the burden of proof is on you. You must first prove that the Romney campaign is based primarily on the “examples” you listed above. You must then prove he actually lied about those things. I’ll take each one individually.
Romney said, repeatedly, that Obama inherited a bad situation “and made it worse.” That’s a lie.
His campaign is primarily based on that statement? If that’s the case, he must have uttered that an amount of times that numbers in the hundreds. Can you provide a list of all the times he has said that?Secondly, that is not a lie. It’s an opinion. You’re claiming to somehow know exactly what Romney means by his statement “made it worse”. Has he made it worse today compared to worst days of the recession in early 2009? No, of course not. Economies go through cycles. Has he made it worse today than it would have been without his economic polices in place? Yes. Romney did not lie.
He took a terrible situation and made it a whole lot better. Romney lies.
58% of Americans and 61% of Independents say you are wrong about that.
http://www.politico.com/polls/politico-george-washington-university-battleground-poll.htmlRomney claims the stimulus “didn’t work.” That’s a lie.
The stimulus was supposed to bring about a strong, sustainable economy. It has failed to do that. Romney did not lie.
Romney tried to paint a narrative that under Obama, jobs for women have been lost, trying to argue that Obama’s policies have been bad for women.
Again, if you think Romney’s campaign is primarily based on that narrative, you must be spending a lot of timing reading radical, leftwing, extremist type of website.
Romney keeps implying that under Obama, taxes for the middle class have increased. That’s a lie.
I’m not aware of Romney making that claim, much less his campaign being primarily based on it. Perhaps you can provide a list of all the times he has made that claim, proving that his campaign is primarily based on it.
Romney keeps claiming that deficits have increased under Obama. That’s a lie.
Obama has racked up more in deficits in 3 years than Bush did in 8. Romney did not lie.
just last week, the “you didn’t build that” flap, flat-out saying that Obama claimed people who build companies don’t build those companies. That’s a flat-out lie.
Let’s be real. Perhaps Obama didn’t actually say that verbatim, but we all know what he meant. He believes government is the heartbeat and the driving force of the country, especially the economy. And that individuals are successful only to the extent that government assists them in being successful.
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#95 written by shortchain 9 months ago
GROG,
It strikes me that, if it comes to whether DC or Romney is should be more allowed to express an opinion as if it were fact, I’ll allow DC to do it before I’ll give the same right to a presidential candidate. While a presidential candidate is entitled to an opinion, he’s not entitled, as a general rule, to simply present it as incontrovertible fact.“we all know what he meant” — yeah, sure “we” all do. You cannot present any statements by Obama which, taken in context demonstrate that he believes as you say.
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#96 written by GROG 9 months ago
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#97 written by shortchain 9 months ago
GROG,
I’m pretty damned sure Obama does not believe as you say, and I give you the way he behaved toward the auto companies. I also give you the way the ACA was structured. In both cases, the government components were carefully constructed so as to preserve private sector participation. And then there’s his choice of financial advisors.I would say it is quite obvious that Obama is a believer in capitalism and in private control of markets. Too much a believer, perhaps, when it comes to health care.
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Please don’t antagonize our conservative posters.
mclever’s underestimating logarchism’s few con’s fortitude er addiction er sticktoitiveness
notwithstanding, grog/rgbact/shilohbuster et al have mentioned
on several occasions “they” don’t pay any attention to my posts … soooo, not to worry lol.They may check out, but they never leave …
>
btw grog, do you think turdblossom’s/mittens’ daily saturation bombs of ad nauseam negative Obama/Sherrod Brown political ads are having an effect in Ohio? Rhetorical.
ok, ok, one effect is mittens’ OH unfavorables are worsening, if possible. How low can you go? Taking into consideration most die hard conservatives, like grog, already think mittens is a scum of the earth charlatan/shyster.
carry on w/compulsive liar Romney …
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Apologies to scum of the earth wannabes!
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Also, if outside conservative billionaire $$$ is having no effect in 2012 Ohio, one would think Kasich is toast in 2014 when he runs against Strickland again. I digress.
And as OH/VA/FL/PA/CO/NM/NV/IA/NH etc. become more BLUE on the presidential level, what are con strategists gonna do? … w/voter demographics continually progressing
in the Dem’s favor? Again, rhetorical. -
His campaign is primarily based on that statement?
Yes. His campaign is based on the narrative that Obama has been a bad steward of the economy, and that Romney would do better.
Secondly, that is not a lie. It’s an opinion.
No. It is a lie. We can objectively determine if the economy is better or worse than the depths of the Bush Recession. It is better. Romney lied.
The stimulus was supposed to bring about a strong, sustainable economy. It has failed to do that. Romney did not lie.
No. Read the January 2009 recommendation on what the stimulus was supposed to accomplish. It accomplished its goals. And the economy is still improving. Romney said the stimulus didn’t work. It did. Romney lied.
Romney keeps claiming that deficits have increased under Obama. That’s a lie.
Obama has racked up more in deficits in 3 years than Bush did in 8. Romney did not lie.Deficits have been reduced under Obama. (You know that. Please don’t pretend you don’t.) Romney lied. Further, the fact that today’s deficits are big is due to Bush, not Obama. Had Obama done nothing, deficits would be far larger than they are. You know that, too. Romney continues to lie.
Let’s be real. Perhaps Obama didn’t actually say that verbatim, but we all know what he meant.
Yes. He explained it in great detail. He meant that we all do better when we all do better, and that America does better when government and business work together. Also that Ayn Rand was an idiot, and anyone who succeeds does so because someone else built roads and infrastructure. Your hostile caricature of his point is coming from within you, not from anything President Obama himself ever said.
I repeat: Romney’s argument to be president is based on lies about Obama. His campaign is based on lies.
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#100 written by GROG 9 months ago
DC,
No. It is a lie. We can objectively determine if the economy is better or worse than the depths of the Bush Recession. It is better. Romney lied.
No. It is not a lie. Obama has made the eoncomy worse than it should be this many years removed from the recession. You’re twisting and making unfounded assumptions of what Romney has said in a desperate attempt to prove something that’s not there.
Also that Ayn Rand was an idiot, and anyone who succeeds does so because someone else built roads and infrastructure.
Someone else? If successful, tax paying individuals didn’t build the roads and infrastructure, then who did?
I repeat: Romney’s argument to be president is based on lies about Obama. His campaign is based on lies.
You can repeat it until you’re blue in the face. It doesn’t change the fact that there’s no merit to your argument.
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About dcpetterson (187 posts)
D. C. Petterson is a novelist and a software consultant in Minnesota who has been writing science fiction since the age of six. He is the author of A Melancholy Humour, Rune Song and Still Life. He lives with his wife, two dogs, two cats, and a lizard, and insists that grandchildren are the reward for having survived teenagers. When not writing stories or software, he plays guitar and piano, engages in political debate, and reads a lot of history and physics texts—for fun. Follow on Twitter @dcpetterson





You are not wrong that most Americans are misinformed and a bit apathetic about politics. I am around political non-followers quite a bit and this is not something talked about often and when it is Obamacare is a swear word and credit is given solely to the president for our financial state and war habits.
It is a hard call to define if people in general are not interested in politics because of apathy, misguidance or misunderstandings. I do believe (not know, but believe) from personal observation and experience that government is not for the people or about the people, but simply about power, manipulation and money. So why bother.