The Shimmer Floor Wax Election
Waaaay back in 1976, NBC’s Saturday Night (now known as Saturday Night Live) ran one of their spoof advertisements, for Shimmer Non-Dairy Floor Wax. In it, a husband (Dan Aykroyd) and wife (Gilda Radner) are arguing over whether Shimmer is a floor wax or a dessert topping. Chevy Chase enters the kitchen as the spokesman to clarify that Shimmer is both a floor wax and a dessert topping.
In similar fashion, Democrats and Republicans are arguing over whether this year’s Presidential election is a referendum on the President, or a choice between two candidates.
I’ve got news for you: this election is a referendum on the President and a choice between the two candidates.
Referendum
Certainly any election with an incumbent has an element of referendum to it. In essence, a referendum on an incumbent is like firing an employee. If your employee isn’t doing the job you want, you’re entitled to fire that employee. Elected officials are no different. In fact, this is the whole point of having regular elections.
But let’s look at how it works in the world of employment. If I have an employee who isn’t doing the job, I have literally billions of alternate choices. True, the vast majority get eliminated right away, but in the end I will typically interview dozens of potential candidates, after going through hundreds of résumés. And, if I have gone through all of them and none convince me that they are an improvement over the status quo, I can immediately go back and start over.
With a Presidential election, our hands are tied quite a bit more. Realistically, we are rarely presented with more than two choices, since third parties are all but excluded from the process. And so we are left with two people, and one chance every quadrennium, to replace the incumbent. And that means that we can’t have a referendum exclusive of also having a…
Choice
When presented with two options, one which we currently have but don’t like a lot, is it better to switch or not? That, of course, depends on what the other option is. I’m going to dip my toe here in Godwin territory, but just to prove a point. Imagine for a moment that the Republican Party nominated Adolph Hitler as their candidate of choice. Would we truly be better off with him than with Barack Obama? (I’m sure that there are a few who would say yes, but very few.) We simply can’t avoid considering that the replacement may be worse than the status quo.
Is Mitt Romney an improvement over Barack Obama? Certainly to those who believe that the government that does the best does the least. And to those who never found a tax that they like. And to those who consider Fox News to be fair and balanced. In other words, the Republican base.
But is he an improvement to people who aren’t already predisposed to hate Obama? The answer to that question is far less clear.
Shimmer
For Republicans, it needs to be a referendum, because the choice doesn’t look appealing to moderate, undecided voters. Romney comes across as stiff, stilted, and artificial. In contrast, Obama comes across as comfortable, easygoing, and natural. Romney is light on policy specifics and heavy on platitudes, while Obama has long been clear on his policy specifics. That doesn’t make the Romney choice look particularly good to moderates.
For Democrats, it needs to be a choice, because Obama’s record doesn’t look appealing to moderate, undecided voters. Obama promised a lot, but the most compelling promise he made was to end the ugly partisanship in Washington. It was a nice promise, and one that made him sound like a savior (much of the reason why Republicans derided his “celebrity” persona). But it was one on which he didn’t deliver. Perhaps nobody could have, but nobody else made that promise. Another key promise he made was to fix the economy. And, yes, it’s better than it was three years ago. But it’s nowhere near as good as the picture painted by his campaign rhetoric four years ago. Perhaps nobody could have brought about that level of recovery, but Obama is the one who made that promise. Those were the two most compelling promises, and neither of them lived up to the rhetoric. That doesn’t make the Obama record look particularly good to moderates.
This is why both candidates have focused more attention on getting the base to the polls, and less on drawing the moderates. Those moderate voters will be looking at the November election as Shimmer Floor Wax. They will consider both the referendum and the choice elements. Tastes terrific, and just look at that shine! It’s unlikely that either will be more compelling than the other to them in the end, and since neither one pulls a voter toward a candidate, the combined force is likely to do little more than make them stay at home.
Related articles
- Obama and Romney: Choice or referendum? (content.usatoday.com)
- Election is Now a Referendum on Romney, not Obama (ConservativeActionAlerts.com)
- Walker Knocks “Referendum” (washingtonmonthly.com)
- John Boehner: I Can’t Make You Love Romney, Because Most Of America Won’t (outsidethebeltway.com)
- Is it just the economy? Other issues may play role (news.yahoo.com)

This entry was posted by Michael Weiss on July 31, 2012 at 3:00 am, and is filed under Reelection Watch. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0.You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.
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#302 written by Mule Rider 9 months ago
“Not to step on DC’s toes, but I would suggest that “lying, stealing, and murder” are clearly encompassed by “love your neighbor” as part of the new covenant.”
If I remember correctly, the first part of that is “to love God, above all else.” And part of loving God is obeying Him. You’re almost trying to simplify Christianity into something to fit our civil rights and the Constitution, i.e. “it’s okay as long as you don’t hurt anyone else (another human being).” But this isn’t about civil rights, it’s about pleasing God. And you can disobey God with much more than just the kind of stuff that violates “love of neighbor.”
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This really needs to be re-posted at least once a year:
Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a radio personality who dispenses advice to
people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that
homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot
be condoned under any circumstance.The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by an east coast
resident, which was posted on the Internet.Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I
have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that
knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the
homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus
18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need
some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws
and how to follow them:When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
pleasing odor for the Lord – Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They
claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in
Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair
price for her?I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her
period of menstrual uncleanliness – Lev.15:19– 24. The problem is, how
do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and
female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend
of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you
clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2
clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill
him myself?A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination – Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality.
I don’t agree. Can you settle this?Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a
defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does
my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair
around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.
19:27. How should they die?I know from Lev. 11:6–8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different
crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of
two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to
curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the
trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? –
Lev.24:10–16. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family
affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)I know you have studied these things
extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for
reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging. -
#304 written by Mule Rider 9 months ago
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Mule, forgive me, I worded that last question wrong. It isn’t a matter of you being “okay” with legalized same-sex marriage, because you have every right to think it’s not okay. The question is, are you going to attempt to control behavior by supporting efforts to prevent legislation that recognizes same-sex marriages?
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#307 written by Max 9 months ago
So if Christ brought the “new covenant” and replaced Mosaic law for Christians, and Christ made absolutely NO MENTION of gays, then the ONLY actual Biblical source for such a belief is Paul’s epistles.
Paul states affirmatively that premarital sex with one’s fiancée is OK. (I Cor. 7:36)
Paul states affirmatively that he thinks marriage IS A LAST RESORT! That he thinks Christians should “be as I” (unmarried) and that only if “they cannot contain” (their carnal impulses) only then should they marry “for it is better to marry than to burn”. (I Cor. 7:9)
Thus, according to the ONLY person of so-called authority in the New Testament, supposedly speaking on behalf of God, and contrary to what most Christians today profess, it’s OK to have premarital sex with your “older” virgin fiancée, and marriage is NOT the Biblical “normal” expected, situation for Christians, only those who cannot contain their carnal impulses.
And Paul is the ONLY source for anti-gay position in the New Testament, not Christ, not the Apostles, Paul alone.
And Paul affirmatively states that sometime he voices his personal opinion. (I Cor. 7:6)
Just great!
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If I remember correctly, the first part of that is “to love God, above all else.” And part of loving God is obeying Him.
That’s an excellent point. But a disapproval of homosexuality is based on someone’s interpretation of God’s will. I think we can also agree that humans are imperfect and fallible, and that human interpretations of divine will may contain some errors.
If this were not the case, there would be only one Christian denomination. The existence of multiple denominations, each purporting to follow God’s will, and each being different in some important ways from all the others, proves that human interpretation of God’s will can go awry. Doesn’t it?
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#309 written by mclever 9 months ago
@Mule
I don’t disagree with you that “love the lord your God” is the first and most important commandment. But what it means to “love God” is open to interpretation, especially within the context of the new testament. Many first century Christians, including Peter, initially thought this meant following all of the old testament laws, too. But the followup in Acts and Romans shows that’s not the case. Paul was particularly clear that someone whose faith is “weak” is the one who overly relies on the law to determine right and wrong.
The old testament, with its myriad laws, represents an immature faith, where the parent needs to tell the child all of the dos and don’ts, because the child isn’t capable of making those determinations for himself. In the new testament, Jesus encourages us to think beyond the law, to use our discernment and reason to determine what is right or wrong in a given situation. Intent and compassion matter more than strict adherence to a list of rules. Within Christianity is the inherent truth that not every rule applies perfectly all the time. Like when Jesus healed on the Sabbath, for example.
So, loving God means respecting the Law enough to know when to break it, as Jesus did often. And a mature recognition that some Christians will disagree on “disputable matters”, but that we should continue to love and respect one another.
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Please forgive me for making multiple comments. I have only short slices of time available.
But this isn’t about civil rights, it’s about pleasing God.
When we’re talking about secular law (such as, for instance, the legal definition of “marriage”) when we are talking about civil rights, and we are not talking about “pleasing God.” Am I mistaken on that?
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#311 written by Max 9 months ago
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#313 written by Mule Rider 9 months ago
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#314 written by Max 9 months ago
Mule, you may rationalize it any way your heart desires, or your brain may make excuses for.
But it does not negate the fact that you own no moral high ground, you, by your actions, prove false your professions of Christian belief, and you have your picking and choosing highlighted against fact, both in the actions and beliefs of many Christians, and on Biblical sources. Those verses I quote just keep proving your narrow, self appointed approach to Christ’s teachings.It’s not that you WON’T defend them, even on Biblical fact, it’s that you CAN’T.
So you hide behind excuses. And I haven’t displayed anything NEAR to the boorish behavior as have you. Which shows that you like to give it, but you can’t take it. The very definition of a bully. And I refuse to be bullied.
You choose your path.
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#315 written by Mule Rider 9 months ago
Max, I don’t avoid this conversation because I’m lacking in foundation and can’t defend myself. I avoid it because you are a self-aggrandizing jerk who has warped/perveted me and my opinions into some caricature that doesn’t represent who I am. As such, anything you have to say to me is invalid and I will not address it. I’m being kind and patient in reminding you that your continued assault will not be addressed. I will now revert back to no longer addressing even your assaults on my character. But feel free to keep wasting your time tilting at windmills. It’s your life, not mine.
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DC,
Does this also mean you’re okay with the idea of legalized same-sex marriage?
Mule has answered this on numerous occasions. He is opposed to there being a legal construct called “marriage”, preferring that the term be reserved for a religious covenant. It removes government from the equation altogether.
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#317 written by Max 9 months ago
For context, let’s review how Mule entered this thread beginning @ #85
“ This very statement speaks volumes as to the insidiousness and evil within the American Left. “
Then: “ Either you’re lying to yourself about what you believe and/or what Obama believes or you’re trying to repackage yours/Obama’s beliefs into something they’re not, “
Then (on Armchair Warlord): “ Even his chicken-hawk side . . . “. Since AW is wearing the uniform, he CANNOT be, by definition, a “chicken-hawk”, and it’s purely to insult.
Then: ” you’ve already been made a puppet by their diabolical subterfuge
Then, finally, after: ” “ There is no introspection on your part, only a lustful desire to marginalize conservative thought completely out of existence. ”I call you out for all that (and more) with:
“Pure, unadulterated bullshit! Quit whining and put forth a rational conservative argument on ANY goddamned thing without resorting to snot-nosed ad hominems, shopworn talking points, and/or paranoid ramblings!And Muley can’t take it. After all HIS BS, he can’t take a punch.
Sad.
You choose your path.
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#318 written by Mule Rider 9 months ago
“Mule has answered this on numerous occasions. He is opposed to there being a legal construct called “marriage”, preferring that the term be reserved for a religious covenant. ”
Exactly. And if two homosexual people can find a religious sect willing to consecrate that union as a legitimate marriage covenant, I have no problem with it. Or even if they can’t find anyone to recognize it but want to run around telling people they’re married, I don’t care about that either.
I don’t want the government telling me what is and what isn’t marriage. That’s an unnecessary area for the government to get involved in, in my opinion.
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#319 written by Mule Rider 9 months ago
Is Max the new bartbuster? Just wondering. I ask the moderators of this site to implore Max to tone it down a notch because I find it unnecessary for the pages to be filled up with his accusatory bile that will not be responded to. If it were my own blog, I wouldn’t care, but the other readers shouldn’t be subjected to and have to work around his verbal abuse of me.
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#320 written by mclever 9 months ago
@Mule
For what it’s worth, I agree completely with everything you say in #318.
I suspect many of the other liberals in here will agree with you on this one, too. The problem arises with how to extricate the government from the marriage business… There are thousands of lines of law that pertain to marriage in this country.
If we reluctantly concede that government will continue recognizing a legal civil marriage contract, then we need to decide whether it’s worse for the government to restrict those public contracts from certain classes of people, or whether it’s closer to government non-intervention in personal lives if that government recognizes “marriage” contracts between any two adults without restriction. I’d suggest that reducing the restrictions on marriage would be closer to the libertarian ideal, even if government is still in the business of issuing the licenses.
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Exactly. And if two homosexual people can find a religious sect
willing to consecrate that union as a legitimate marriage
covenant, I have no problem with it. Or even if they can’t find
anyone to recognize it but want to run around telling people they’re
married, I don’t care about that either.I don’t want the government telling me what is and what isn’t
marriage. That’s an unnecessary area for the government to get
involved in, in my opinion.I’m mostly agreed with you then. I think he ideal solution is for there to be two different institutions, once is a legal union, the other is a religious union. They should have different words (and I personally don’t care what the words are). Religious institutions should be able to consecrate (or not) any union they deem appropriate. The law should recognize contracts between consenting adults.
The unfortunate complication is a practical one. The word “marriage” exists in the legal code already. Unless and until it gets struck from every legal document and ever law and statute, we’re stuck with it as a legal term that applies to certain types of contracts between consenting adults.
It then becomes a word that has two meanings, as a “run” in baseball is very different from a “run” in you stocking or a “run” of bad luck. Or as “polish” on your shoe is different from “Polish” sausages.
Perhaps the best we can do is to append a prefix. There is “legal marriage” and there is “religious marriage”. Or perhaps there is a “marriage” which is a legal entity, and a “sacred union” that exists within whatever religious institution recognizes it.
Mule, I hope you and I have come to better understandings here. I think I understand your position better. I hope you understand mine better as well.
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By the way, in my opinion, a law that recognizes marriage between two people does not require any church to recognize that marriage. A church can treat people as being married, or not, as they please, for any purposes other than things that deal with secular law. (For instance, they cannot deny medical coverage to spouses of married employees — that is a legal thing dealing with the legal and financial contract between those two people. It’s not a religious matter in any way.)
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#325 written by Max 9 months ago
Mule,
If you were judged by the same standard by “the moderators” as that which you ask me to be, as demonstrated above, you would be asked to “tone it down” more than half the time! It is terribly ironic of you to cry “verbal abuse” when the above shows YOUR tactics. I guess it’s OK when you do it, but when someone fights fire with fire against YOU then it becomes “verbal abuse”. Read Matthew 7:4 again.
You will not find a single case of me “abusing” you BEFORE you start with the ham-fisted attacks. None.
You choose the path on which we walk. When you choose the smooth sanded path, we’ll walk that one. But when you choose the broken glass covered path, I’ll walk it with you.
But you don’t get to start down the latter, then because we walk hand in hand and your feet hurt, cry and pretend YOU didn’t begin that journey and act like I, or someone else, is at fault.
If you wish to apologize for your choice of words that started the silliness, AND MOVE FORWARD as an adult, I’ll apologize to the list for my ensuing behavior.But I refuse to let you start and go on without calling you out, now, or again in the future.
You choose the path.
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#327 written by GROG 9 months ago
Max,
“Tell me you don’t see the difference between positions where one party says that because of “this” we are “inviting God’s judgement”, and the other party says “although I believe ‘this’, it has no place in government policy”. You really don’t?”
The first comment was said directly to a Baptist publication by a guy who peddles chicken.
The other was said by a U.S. senator during a presidential debate.
One commenter gets called a hate filled, bigoted, homophobe and the far left threatens to keep him out of select cities across the country.
The other becomes president of the free world and gets fawned over by the far left.
You really don’t see the double standard? Obama said it’s a Christian union between a man and a woman. He said “God’s in the mix”, proabably meaning that’s how God intended it.
And then he sas:“I am not somebody who promotes same-sex marriage.”
Which means he wanted the definition of marriage to remain the same way it has been defined for thousands of years. If he didn’t promote changing civil law conerning the definition of marriage, then he wanted civil law to remain the same. At least according to his rhetoric at the time.
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#328 written by Max 9 months ago
GROG,
But Obama never called God’s judgement on America into the question as did Mr Cathy.
Foul!! YOU do NOT get to define what Obama “means”. You take whatever is said at face value. Since marriage has NOT been defined as you imply “for thousands of years”, not EVEN in the Bible (as I have shown and no one has successfully rebutted), your assertion fails for lack of merit
And those on the extreme left have been criticized by all the rest of us for considering interfering with Mr Cathy’s freedom of speech! And I refer you again to Matthew 7:22–23 on Christ’s comments on those who presume to speak in such manner as did Mr Cathy.
And Obama has been praised, and occasionally criticized, by almost all the free world, not just the “far left”, with the exception of the partisan right wing.
I hope you respond to the comment a couple later.
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Grog,
First, “the far left” didn’t “threatens to keep him [Mr. Cathy] out of” anywhere. A few mayors made some public statements. I defy you to find any official statement or action by “the far left.” Who has the authority to speak for “the far left”?
Second, “the far left” isn’t “fawning over” President Obama, and never has, though he is rather popular worldwide, as Max pointed out. “The far left” has always viewed Mr. Obama as something of a centrist (at best), and many of them (go read firedoglake.com) don’t like him much, and never did.
Third, Senator Obama as a candidate had zero authority in the matter. Since becoming president, he’s made it plain that his personal preferences are not an appropriate basis for public policy. While Mr. Cathy also has zero authority, he pretended to speak for God. I view that as a real difference in the intent of their statements. You are free to disagree.
You might or might not see these as important points, but you need not misrepresent these facts to make whatever point you’re going for. Or perhaps you do. Does your point still have a basis if you view these two statements accurately?
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Grog, there is another dynamic going on that should be mentioned.
Most liberals are not single issue voters. Nor do must liberals insist on enforcing a “purity test” such that if a candidate or a politician disagrees on merely one issue, we feel the necessity to condemn and reject that person.
So, if a Democratic candidate supports the rights of blacks and Hispanics and women, if he opposes efforts at voter suppression, if he wants to end the Bush wars and to repeal some or all of the ill-advised Bush tax cuts, if he wants to keep Social Security and Medicare and Medicaid, if he is in favor of creating jobs, if he supports health care reform — but if we disagree with him or her on one or two other issues (particularly if he makes it plain that his particular view of those issues is not going to lead to drastic regressive policy changes) — then yes, we will still full-throatedly support that person. That’s merely being practical. I have yet to find another human being with whom I agree on every single issue.
On the other hand, nearly the only things that most Americans now know about Mr. Cathy are 1) he’s in charge of Chick-fil-A, and 2) he opposes same-sex marriage. His publicized participation in public discourse has amounted to nothing more than a couple of extremely bigoted statements.
Maybe if he came out loudly in favor of the Affordable Care Act, made it clear he opposed the Bush torture régime, explained that Romney’s tax proposals are offensive nonsense, rejected the birthers as criminally insane — and then also said, “okay I think God disapproves of homosexuals, but I sure don’t think my view should affect public policy” — then he might actually win praise from the people who currently disapprove.
Now, feel free to spin that however you choose. The point is, no one is pure, but if the only thing the public knows about someone is a thing that is offensive and distasteful, then that person will not be spoken of in a positive manner.
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#332 written by GROG 9 months ago
DC,
“You might or might not see these as important points, but you need not misrepresent these facts to make whatever point you’re going for. Or perhaps you do.”
My point is a very simple one. Two individuals made statements revealing their religious views that marriage is defined as being between a man and a woman. Both are treated entirely different by the far left. One of them was a Democratic presidential candidate at the time. The other was a chicken peddler. The Democrat gets elected president. The chicken peddler is the target of public riducule. You can justify it all you want. I don’t get it.
On a different thread I said:
If someone says they believe marriage is between one man and one
woman, they’re a hateful homophobic, bigot.
To which you responed:Honestly, I don’t know what else to call them.
Ninety days ago, was Obama a hateful, homophobic, bigot? Because if he was, I certainly never saw anyone on Logarchism say he was. Double standard?
All the while, the far left is trying to convince themselves that it’s the Republicans who are the “batshit crazy” ones.
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#333 written by shortchain 9 months ago
I tend to agree with GROG on this latest comment. There’s a bit of a double standard in the outrage directed at Cathy versus Obama. There are some nuances here — Obama didn’t express himself with as much arrogance, and he didn’t imply that a deity would punish the USA for anything — but there’s a basic intolerance in his remark a while ago. Yet there was no outrage on anything like the outrage directed against Cathy.
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#334 written by Mule Rider 9 months ago
“.…never saw anyone on Logarchism say he was.”
I’ve come to the conclusion that the ignorant, bile-spewing, condescending, and sophistry-peddling hypocrites that infest this dump simply aren’t worth my precious time anymore, GROG.
Feel free to interact with these mouth-breathers as you best see fit, but I treat them as little more than my impression of how filistro examines the Freepers, essentially as a case study to where I can reach out from time to time and get a pulse for just how demented, warped, and perverse the level of “enlightened thinking” has gotten among our self-proclaimed “progressive” and “rational” in society.
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#335 written by mclever 9 months ago
Without making excuses or claiming the double-standard is right or OK, I thought DC did a decent job in #331 of explaining why the double-standard happens. If we already know lots of things about someone and already like them, we’re more likely to dismiss or minimize something “bad” that we learn later. But, if the only thing we know about someone is “bad”, then that will be the focus of our opinion about that person. This happens all the time, because it’s a feature of how we as humans process information. It’s how people who claim fidelity matters as their most important issue can support someone like Gingrich, for example.
First impressions matter to us. Unfortunately for Cathy, the first impression many folks got wasn’t a good one, and we (the general populace) don’t know enough other “good” things to head off the negative impression.
Again, I don’t think this is necessarily good or right. I’m just saying what is. I also should be clear that I think the outraged reactions by some on the Left were outsized in comparison to the offense. Likewise, I think the anti-gay rhetoric in the guise of supporting Chick-Fil-A is pretty outrageous, too. Way too much has been made of this issue of what a certain CEO (who has no power over public policy) happens to think about gay rights.
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#336 written by Max 9 months ago
So Mule,
“ the ignorant, bile-spewing, condescending, and sophistry-peddling hypocrites that infest this dump ” is how you express yourself (again) instead of debating head-on. In spite of many opportunities for you to rebut NUMEROUS assertions to which you object, this is WHAT YOU DO.
This is typical Mule Rider. Afraid of getting your ass handed to you in debate, you resort to insult. Afraid of being embarrassed in a public forum because of an inability to carry on a REASONED level of assertion, counter assertion, rebuttal and counter rebuttal, so you resort to the SAME OLD “gut you like a fish” MULE, just without the old obscenities. Sad and pathetic! I doubt you even know what “rational” means. You wouldn’t know what “enlightened thinking” was if it jumped up and bit you on your ass.
And you have the audacity, the gall, to spout off Christian ideals as though you actually understood what they mean. Hypocrite!
So why don’t you get all butt-hurt and lay into me for calling a hypocritical ass, a hypocritical ass. Because that’s YOU, brother!
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Grog,
The tendency to lift a single comment out of the greater context in which it is embedded plays heavily into the questions you’re asking. I guarantee that if a single comment unsupportive of same-sex marriage was the only thing liberals had heard about Obama, they wouldn’t like him. That’s what happened to Mr. Cathy. Within the context of a much larger narrative, and given that he gave no indication that his personal opinion should have any implications for policy, it’s not a big deal.
You may not like it much — but then, you are willing to overlook Romney’s gaffes and truly insane people like Michele Bachmann, and yet you still support Republican candidates and you would favor a Republican majority in the U.S. government. In other words, you also are willing to put aside details when the greater message is one you like.
You want to compare a man whose only known statements are of type “X” on subject “Y” with a man about whom a great deal more is known, on thousands of subjects, who has made a statement that can be interpreted as being kind of like “X”. It’s yet one more of these false equivalences, and it will be impressive only to people who like pulling things out of context to make tu quoque points that confirm their existing biases.
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#338 written by mostlyilurk 9 months ago
Mule,
A few days ago you said:
“Look, I call myself a Christian and I’m doing my best to have wisdom and discernment for what God’s will and purpose is. I try and prioritize the things he prioritizes and let my will follow his will, emphasizing love, forgiveness, kindness, non-judgmentalism, etc. over all else but also understaning His purpose for a way of life that makes us righteous and pure.“How on earth do you square that with the hatred you just spewed in your last few posts?
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#339 written by Mule Rider 9 months ago
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#340 written by Mule Rider 9 months ago
“How on earth do you square that with the hatred you just spewed in your last few posts?”
First of all, don’t confuse “hate” with “harsh.” Secondly, at some point you have to realize that your audience is not interested in responding or reacting honestly to anything you have to say and is only interested in perverting and caricaturizing your position to mock you and put (or shout) you down with their hard-nosed ideological drivel. I don’t have time for that and will call a spade a spade. But rather than keep engaging it, I intend on taking an extremely large step back. Only negligible interaction and occasional observation. Just so I’m up-to-date on the latest way to pervert and distort the world around us, which is fallen. I didn’t think I’d live to see the day when evil is proclaimed to be good and good shouted down as evil, but we’re here. Fasten your seatbelts, because the ride’s just going to get bumpier from here.
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#341 written by Max 9 months ago
mc,
There IS no double standard except the one created by the conservatives in their own minds so as to try to make a false equivalence between Mr Cathy and Obama.
It’s due to the lack of keeping thing in context, something, as you see happen ALL THE TIME with the right. GROG just cannot “see” the difference, though in #328–331, there is as good an explanation of the difference between the two statements as can be explained.
GROG can’t point to the folks here who called Mr Cathy anything but someone who publicly expressed his religious views and THEN PROCEEDED TO IMPLY GOD’S JUDGEMENT on America, because he obviously feels that HIS religious view should be government policy. Which is specifically against Christ’s own words!!!!!!!!!!! And then they gave their reasons, including citing Bible verses in support of those rebuttals against Mr Cathy. I myself was the very FIRST on this thread to denounce those politicians who went on the record as to think about banning Cathy’s business in their areas. EVERYONE else here did pretty much the same.
Meanwhile the false equivalence as to Obama is defeated by the very nature of the same freedom of speech that Mr Cathy has. And Obama NEVER once called out God’s judgement as did Mr Cathy, but you see that point IGNORED. Because it creates the CONTEXT that they MUST ignore so as to make their argument!
You will also note that there has been no comment on #273 (amended in #274) in my “thought experiment”. Because that sums up the situation pretty well.
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#342 written by GROG 9 months ago
Max,
“And Obama NEVER once called out God’s judgement as did Mr Cathy, but you see that point IGNORED. Because it creates the CONTEXT that they MUST ignore so as to make their argument!”
Obama said marriage is defined as being between a man and a woman. DC feels anyone who believes that is a hate filled, homophobic, bigot. And others on this forum have expressed the same feelings. I’ll copy and paste them here if you would like. Irrespective of the God’s judgement part, DC and others here still feel those beliefs are ones of hate and bigotry.
“You will also note that there has been no comment on #273 (amended in #274) in my “thought experiment”. Because that sums up the situation pretty well.”
I understand your “thought experiment” about the civil law thing. But what if a presidential candidate ran and said during a debate…
“I believe black people are an inferior race. I think they are lazy and dumber than white people. But we should never deny them their civil rights”.
I’m sure you would have a serious problem with that. You wouldn’t give him a pass because he doesn’t want his racists beliefs to be translasted into law. And I’m sure DC would protest even though the candidate has other good qualities about him.
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#343 written by Max 9 months ago
GROG,
I’ll let dc respond to your accusation of him.And, once again, I’ll repeat the CENTRAL FACT that you ignored in #342 and all the others, “And Obama NEVER once called out God’s judgement as did Mr Cathy, but you see that point IGNORED. Because it creates the CONTEXT that they MUST ignore so as to make their argument!”Instead, you repeat, once again “Obama said marriage is defined as being between a man and a woman.” We know that.
You neatly avoided dealing with the questions in the experiment, I note. When will you? Why don’t you deal with me and my question of context and deal separately with dc and whomever you want to take up that debate? Anyway …
So if that person that you hypothesize went on to say that he based his beliefs on the Biblical story of Ham and the curse of the Canaanites (as I actually heard argued in the South in the 60’s) would you be willing to give him a pass because it was his religious belief? Would YOU believe him bigoted, hate-filled and racist in EITHER case?
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Here’s the easy way to settle this issue.
Just repeat after me… GROG IS RIGHT.
See, that wasn’t hard, was it?
GROG is saying that Dan Cathy and Barack Obama expressed the same opinion… that marriage should be between a man and a woman. One earns our criticism for saying it (though we recognize his right to do so) because we suspect him of being motivated by religious intolerance, and we don’t like that. The other got a pass from us because he plays on our team.… but he shouldn’t because we could reasonably have suspected him of being motivated by political expedience. And really, which is worse?
I for one was very relieved when Obama reversed himself and “evolved” to where he’s no doubt been all along. It made me like him better (though it’s still no profile in courage, considering he seems to have evolved along with the poll numbers)… and now at least he no longer holds this position in common with Dan Cathy.
But the fact that he once did is undeniable.
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#347 written by Max 9 months ago
fili,
GROG is right. But only if you take out of context the two statements. Which is the point I have been making.
GROG is right if you agree that Obama said that you didn’t build your business totally on your own.
Context matters.
And if GROG, or you, think that Obama did not get grief from the left for his statement, y’all are missing facts in evidence.
Sorry about the Canadian Women’s Soccer team. That was one of, if not, THE best football game I’ve seen. Too bad either had to lose!
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“I think we are inviting God’s judgment on our nation when we shake
our fist at Him and say ‘we know better than you as to what constitutes a
marriage’ and I pray God’s mercy on our generation that has such a
prideful, arrogant attitude to think that we have the audacity to define
what marriage is about.” – Dan Cathy, CEO of Chick-Fil-AVarious statements on the issue by Barack Obama can be found here.
I do not view Cathy’s clear intolerance and arrogant claims to know the workings of God’s mind as being in any way comparable to Obama’s nuanced and thoughtful and respectful statements. It is a false equivalence to compare them, and it is intentionally dishonest to claim that we should react the same way to them both.
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Re: the soccer game, skipped thru the streaming video, w/no play by play announcing, long enough to watch all the goals. The USA’s 3rd goal is the questionable one where Wambach’s penalty kick was awarded ’cause one of Canada’s player “touched” the ball w/her hands ?!? There was also another questionable call re: Canada’s goalkeeper, a few moments before.
So many questionable Olympic Game calls, so little time …
btw, Hope Solo is full of herself and should be … never mind.
Was glad McKayla Maroney fell on her butt as she also seems full of herself.
Also glad the Brits are coming on strong after a slow start and :::gasp::: are actually showing their emotions! lol
>
Re: shilohbuster ~ never mind!
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#351 written by Mule Rider 9 months ago
“It is a false equivalence to compare them, and it is intentionally dishonest to claim that we should react the same way to them both.“
No, it’s very clear the only intentional dishonesty here is your ongoing denial of your obvious hypocrisy.
As for this:
“Grog, I will thank you for not again claiming to know how I feel about something.”http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCwUgws9uXc
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shilohbuster
I’ve come to the conclusion that the ignorant, bile-spewing, condescending, and sophistry-peddling hypocrites that infest this dump simply aren’t worth my precious time anymore, GROG.
hmm, apparently MR’s time ain’t too precious … or a reasonable facsimile thereof.
Childish name calling ~ I’m done! lather, rinse, repeat …
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DC,
Obama’s nuanced and thoughtful and respectful statements
I think it’s a stretch to call them “nuanced”, “thoughtful”, or “respectful”. If we heard the same sorts of things from Mitt Romney (and we have), we’d call it flip-flopping, pandering, unprincipled…
I look at those statements and see someone who wasn’t particularly clear, even to himself, what he supported. Perhaps he’s settled on a policy (I think he has), but there was a whole lot of zig-zagging along the way.
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Political expediency ie yes Obama believed in gay marriage, but couldn’t say before or after his election because he wanted to get elected and re-elected. Circumstances beyond his control, Biden lol, forced his hand before the 2012 election, but rapidly changing public opinion again points to the fact he was born under a lucky star.
There are of course other areas where liberals are suspect of Obama’s political posturing for political gain which probably go against what Obama truly believes. Shortchain has covered that subject quite thoroughly, eh.
>
Again, Obama’s presidency compares to Jackie Robinson’s ascent into major league baseball ie he has to be perfect in every way. Yes, he has disappointed. But again, he doesn’t have the skin color or WASP heritage of Dutch and FDR. As mentioned previously, my ROI on my $75 one time political donation to Obama’s 2008 campaign has been huge considering the alternative.
If one is looking for perfection, don’t bother w/politics.
And speaking of disappointing/clueless in every way, let’s talk about mittens. ok, let’s not and say “we” did. ie when conservatives are doing the job for you, get the fuck out of the way!
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#356 written by GROG 9 months ago
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#358 written by Max 9 months ago
GROG,
Perhaps one would be better served to say that someone “has expressed opinions” about certain things, instead of that they have certain “feelings”.
I know I have stated opinions here that are completely different from my personal feeling on a subject, sometimes just for the sake of argument.
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#359 written by GROG 9 months ago
DC,
“You’re misrepresenting my opinions and my statements.”
On Open Mic Friday August 3rd, 2012 you responded to this comment that I made:
If someone says they believe marriage is between one man and one
woman, they’re a hateful, homophobic, bigot.DC responded:
“Honestly, I don’t know what else to call them.
You feel that someone who believes marriage is between one man and one woman is a hatefuul, homophobic, bigot. Based on your comments, how exactly am I misrepresenting your statement?
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#360 written by Max 9 months ago
GROG,
While you play games with dc’s feelings, how about taking a minute and tell us when and where Obama expressed the the US was committing a slap in God’s face and possibly incurring God’s judgement over the issue of same sex marriage?
By your NOT doing so, you have NO basis to make the two men’s positions equivalent. ZERO. NONE.
Where is it????????????????????????????? In Romney’s words: “Put up, or shut up.”
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Grog,
Thank you for the opportunity to expand. I meant to refer to the stunning arrogance of Mr. Cathy’s statement, wherein he said we had cause to “fear” the “wrath” of God, for having the “audacity” to disagree with Mr. Cathy on the question of who can get married. I also am offended by Mr. Cathy’s implication that God is so petty as to care about what kinds of legal contracts a given nation might allow between consenting adults.
I apologigize for ay confusion.
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#362 written by Mule Rider 9 months ago
“…offended by Mr. Cathy’s implication that God is so petty as to care about what kinds of legal contracts a given nation might allow between consenting adults.”
And I find it pretty offensive for you to dismiss the God’s feelings on mankind’s relationships when He’s pretty invested in the everyday activities of the “lowly animals,” such as birds —
http://bible.cc/matthew/6–26.htm.Note I didn’t say God feels like Christians should be compelled to tell people what they can and can’t do with each other, just that He’s most certainly not petty when people choose behavior that He clearly does not condone and they try and build that into a contractual arrangement.
But I suspect it’s futile to continue harping on this the way I have because your view clearly doesn’t align with Scripture — and you have no interest in adopting it anyway — so we’re coming at this from completely different directions.
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#363 written by Mule Rider 9 months ago
“.…the stunning arrogance of Mr. Cathy’s statement, wherein he said we had cause to “fear” the “wrath” of God, for having the “audacity” to disagree with Mr. Cathy on the question of who can get married.”
Cathy said nothing about people disagreeing with him on the question of who can get married but those who stand against God on the matter. Yeah, I know, I know, it’s just his “warped, bigoted, selfish, and erroneous” interpretation of the Bible, so it’s “invalid” and “misguided” in your opinion. And yet, in EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE that homosexual behavior is mentioned in the Bible, either Old or New Testament, God labels it as sin and behavior that is against Him. And there is NOT ONE INSTANCE that it is ever condoned, in any way, shape, or form.
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#364 written by GROG 9 months ago
DC,
Thank you for the opportunity to expand. I meant to refer to the stunning arrogance of Mr. Cathy’s statement, wherein he said we had cause to “fear” the “wrath” of God, for having the “audacity” to disagree with Mr. Cathy on the question of who can get married. I also am offended by Mr. Cathy’s implication that God is so petty as to care about what kinds of legal contracts a given nation might allow between consenting adults.
I apologigize for ay confusion.
Yes, but you made your feelings known on a discussion that had nothing to do with Mr. Cathy’s statement. You were very clear and concise about you feelings. You said you don’t know what else to call someone who believes marriage is between a man and a woman, other than a hate filled, homophobic, bigot. And 90 days ago, Obama believed marriage was between a man and a woman. There’s no confusion there at all.
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#366 written by Max 9 months ago
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Mule,
Cathy said nothing about people disagreeing with him on the
question of who can get married but those who stand against God on the
matter.Cathy can only give Cathy’s opinion. Cathy does not know God’s view any more than you or I do. Cathy is stunningly arrogant to imagine he can proclaim that someone is “against God.” His hubris is simply amazing, and I’m certainly not impressed. Not in the way he’d want, anyhow.
You claim that the Bible contains disapproval of homosexual activity. Show me a quote where Jesus said, “I am here to bring a new covenenant, except as regards homosexuals.” I looked, and couldn’t find that quote, but perhaps I missed it.
Further, I don’t recall Jesus saying anything about who can get married. Maybe I missed that, too. Many of the Old Testament’s rules about who can get married are ignored by Christians today, as we’ve repeatedly demonstrated, so those aren’t applicable in any case.
Until you show me quotes from Jesus on the matter, I think I’ll move on from this conversation. We’ve gone around this topic more than a few times, and nothing new is coming out of it. Thanks to everyone for participating.
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#368 written by Mule Rider 9 months ago
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#369 written by Mule Rider 9 months ago
“Cathy is stunningly arrogant to imagine he can proclaim that someone is “against God.””
Admittedly I’m puzzled by this statement though. By your logic, technically we’re unable to really know/determine if someone is “against God” if they commit murder or theft. According to you, it would be arrogant/foolish to assume we know God truly is against those things.
But that’s getting into another topic area. Just wanted to point out where your logic takes this, however, and that being that if Cathy’s (or any other human’s) take on God’s feelings on homosexuality is flawed because it comes from a “book written by men,” then we really can’t know God’s feelings about of a whole array of human behavior, even some of the most disgusting stuff, like child rape, torture, etc.
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#370 written by Mule Rider 9 months ago
“Further, I don’t recall Jesus saying anything about who can get married. Maybe I missed that, too.”
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+19%3A4-6&version=NKJV
4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made<SUP class=footnote value=‘[a]’>[a]
them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’<SUP class=footnote value=‘[b]’>[b] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?<SUP class=footnote value=‘[c]’>[c] 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
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Mule, you’re right, you are raising a different topic area. Let’s briefly move on to that.
By your logic, technically we’re unable to really know/determine if
someone is “against God” if they commit murder or theft.I oppose murder and theft because of the effect these things have on soceity and on the rights of others, not because of any claimed knowledge of God’s mind. I’ve seen enough people killed or robbed of their goods by “acts of God” for me to acknowledge that I don’t understand God’s will. Therefore, I won’t pretend that I do. I would oppose murder and theft even if there were passages in the Bible that claimed these things were okay (as in commandments, supposedly from God, to conquer certain foreign lands).
Just wanted to point out where your logic takes this, however, and
that being that if Cathy’s (or any other human’s) take on God’s feelings on homosexuality is flawed because it comes from a “book written by men,” then we really can’t know God’s feelings about of a whole array of human behavior, even some of the most disgusting stuff, like child rape, torture, etc.It only leads to that disgusting stuff if you insist that the only reason to do or to not do something is because you think God approves or disapproves. There are other perfectly valid (and equally forceful) motivations.
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Mule,
Great quote from Matthew 19:4–6. Thank you for that. One of my favorites. Have you got a quote from Jesus where he disapproves of other legal contracts, say, between two men or two women? I didn’t see any mention in Matthew of a marriage between people of the same sex, or any indication either of approval or disapproval.
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By the way, Mule, there is a problem with that beautiful passage from Matthew. According to Genesis 2, God separated the woman from the man. He didn’t join them. This could be taken to mean that God wants men and women to remain separate from each other, which is the opposite of what the passage in Matthew claims. A literal reading of the Bible would find a contradiction between these two passages.
Indeed, most Christian theologians interpret “original sin” as being sex, that is, Adam and Eve daring to join back together after God separated them. This would strengthen the idea that God wants men and women to stay away from each other.
Of course, theologians go on to claim that sex (ie., re-joining) is okay if it is sanctioned by their particular church — which is a nice way of exerting control over people, but doesn’t address the true theological issues, nor the contradiction inherent between Matthew and Genesis. It’s just a way of diverting attention away from that issue.
On the other hand, Jesus did say he was offering “a new convenant” to replace the old. This being the case, the contradiction with Genesis is easily resolved merely by saying that Jesus has voided the old rules. Sex is now okay. And since he doesn’t mention either an approval or a disapproval of same-sex relations, we can reasonably assume he didn’t care enough one way or the other to make a point of it.
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#374 written by Max 9 months ago
dc,
Nor does that passage make mention of prohibiting MORE than a single spouse, the TRADITIONAL marriage we see many time throughout the Biblical history (Rachael and Leah, WIVES of Isaac).
And it’s already been shown (1 Cor. 6:15–16) that “become one flesh” is the actual physical joining of two individuals, not “marriage”. One must presume that Isaac became “as one flesh” with them BOTH as BOTH gave birth.
Begs the question: Were ALL THREE thus “one flesh”? If so, then multiple partners is condoned. If not, then the Corinthian passage applies as only the physical joining.
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I think we are inviting God’s judgment on our nation when we shake our fist at Him and say ‘we know better than you as to what constitutes painful childbirth’ and I pray God’s mercy on our generation that has such a prideful, arrogant attitude to think that we have the audacity to use drugs to remove the pain of birth.
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Monotreme, that argument can be extended to most of modern technology, and even to disapproval of bans on slavery and prostitution.
Max, the argument seems to me similar to saying that we should only drink wine (because Jesus allowed that at a wedding once — and even drank wine at his last meal) or should only eat bread and fish (since he supplied that to one crowd). A statement of approval for “X” is not the same as a rule that forbids “not-X”.
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Okay, let’s forget appeals to “history” (same-sex marriage has in fact been accepted and even sanctified in many cultures thoughtout the ages, including American First Nations) “culture” (gay marriage has not increased the divorce rate among heterosexual couples in any country where it is legal) and “public order” (gay marraige does not in any way increase civil instability.)
In fact, let’s cut through all the crap and get to the heart of the matter, which is this.… some people want to deny gays an equal place in society and the attendant rights and privileges of that equality because they find what gay people do to be really ICKY.
Now… I personally find it icky that certain people (in response to what I assume is a strong inborn urge) choose to breast-feed their children until school age. Call me biased or unfair or narrow-minded, but I can’t help this reaction. I mean… YUCK. (Studies have shown kids aren’t psychologically harmed by this, but still… yuck.)
And I’m betting a lot of people would be on my side in this. So, should we all get together, pool our outrage and declare these icky people to be “not-parents?” Should we deprive them of some of the rights and privileges attendant upon parenthood because we just feel squirmy about the way they do it? Or should we mind our own business, let others mind theirs and treat everybody equally as long as they’re not hurting anybody?
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#378 written by Max 9 months ago
fili,
You hit your head on the nail on this one (#377). It seems that many people have the “icky” factor about something, and then go find “Biblical justification” for denouncing and forbidding that thing, even though contradictions can be found counter to their position. Those, they just wave off with one excuse or another because it would not fit their mindset.
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#379 written by shortchain 9 months ago
Monotreme,
Personally, my reading of religious writings indicates that it’s impossible to avoid inviting the Judeo-Christian god’s judgment. It’s what that deity supposedly does, after all.The question is, of course, not whether there will be a judgment, but what the verdict will be. And frankly, I don’t think Cathy, or anybody else, for that matter, is smart enough to foretell the result.
There are probably a few million other people whose opinion on the matter I’d respect more than the CEO of a second-rate fast-food company.
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Filsitro, absolutely right. Not “history,” nor “culture,” nor “public order” offer rational justifications for limiting the rights of any group, certainly not GLBT people. That leaves “religion.”
My own point in discussing biblical quotes is not to discredit or “refute” the Bible, nor to denigrate religion, but to show that Bible-based arguments are actually covers for something else. If I am attempting to discredit or refute anything, it is the arguments of people who are misusing the Bible as an smokescreen for their own preferences — for that is what they are doing.
The Bible is a collection of writings that was assembled (and frequently re-edited) over a period of around 1500 years, often for reasons of politics as much as for poetry or theology or cultural history. One can find passages that support nearly anything (not surprising, given the histories of the various books there). So the supporting passages one actually does find say far more about the goals of the person doing the search than they do about the desires of any deity.
It is perfectly valid to use religion as a justification for one’s own actions. It is not acceptable (not in America) to use religion as a justification for legal restrictions on other people. So, for example, if you have a religious objection to abortion or to same-sex marriage, don’t have one of either. But you can’t use religion as a reason for asking Congress to pass a law that would forbid these things to others.
(And here it is important to acknowledge when our more conservative friends have or have not recommended legal remedies. It is important not to accuse anyone of having an opinion they do not have.)
Note, however, we do sometimes restrict the practice of religion, the execution of religious beliefs. For example, if a religion in America were to insist that the proper response for one of their own committing adultery is for that person to be stoned to death, the law would intervene. If a religion claims polygamy is acceptable, we have law against that as well (though we may argue whether those laws are proper, my point is only that we have them). We disallow religious use of heroin or LSD. We would also frown mightily on a religion that relied on child pornography as a sacrament. In other words, not only do we disallow religions from dictating our laws, we often do allow our laws to restrict religion, and most Americans actually approve of most of those restrictions.
Given that, any argument against same-sex marriage that is a religious argument is not a valid reason against allowing same-sex marriage in America. We do not write religious laws into our legal code. Further, arguments based on the Bible are unconvincing as legal matters, and even as rational matters. Religious laws are valid only in a religious context. And in America, religious laws take second place to the rights of people who are not members of that religion, and often even to rights of people who are.
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#381 written by Mule Rider 9 months ago
“.…second-rate fast-food company.”
Try not to let your disgust of their management’s feelings on same-sex marriage cloud your objectivity in assessing their business model.
http://www.ajc.com/business/chick-fil-a-model-1273562.html
The College Park-based chicken sandwich chain rang up the fast-food industry’s highest average sales per store last year — almost $2.7 million per shop — putting it ahead of industry giants such as McDonald’s, which posted $2.4 million.
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#382 written by Max 9 months ago
dc,
Note that Matthew 5:31, in which Christ speaks against divorce, is not used for civil law. Nor do we see the right wing clamoring for the establishment of anti-divorce laws! In my ADULT life, I have seen Baptist preachers refuse to marry a couple where one or more were divorced, though. They do it all the time, now. Inviting God’s judgement on America? Ain’t heard the right wing bleating on that one either.
Pick and choose? Hypocrisy? Looks like a de facto example of fili’s “icky” factor at work!
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#383 written by Max 9 months ago
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#384 written by shortchain 9 months ago
Muley,
So your argument is that, because they made a lot of money, they have a direct line to your deity? You just managed, if that were possible, to lower yourself in my respect.I’m pretty sure there are some one-off shops that did higher average sales per store. That measure of success would be impressive only if they had roughly as many stores as McDonald’s (33,000). But, since they have 1600, the comparison is idiotic. Only someone like yourself, looking for bias confirmation, would mention it.
That’s right: 1,600 franchises versus 30,000. Second rate is what I said, and second-rate is what I meant. Just like your intellect.
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shortchain,
I’m not certain Mule linked “second-rate” either to religious authority or to number of franchises. He appeared to link “rating” specifically to profitability of individual stores. You may have a different view of how to “rate” a fast-food chain, but I think Mule was expressing unhappiness only with the labeling of Chick-fil-A as “second rate,” and even then only with whatever criteria had been used to establish that rating.
So I think your response to him in #384 was too strong.
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#386 written by Mule Rider 9 months ago
DC nailed it in #385. Wasn’t looking at through a relgious context, just business.
And you’re free to dismiss the numbers because they operate significantly fewer restaurants. But I’ll posit that one of the traits of good/successful business acumen is not over-saturating your product.
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#387 written by shortchain 9 months ago
DC,
I’m sorry. I shouldn’t have called the company second-rate. You’re right, it’s third-rate at best, whether measured in profit, return on investment, number of employees, geographic spread, you name it. You’d think a person supposedly knowledgeable about economics would know that.As for my response, I find it shortens the inevitable degeneration, which seems always to end with Muley spewing insults at everyone around. Since there’s no way to prevent that, the best I can do is make it quick and get it over with.
I’m back out of this thread. Carry on.
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#388 written by Mule Rider 9 months ago
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#389 written by Mule Rider 9 months ago
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#390 written by Max 9 months ago
sc,
As Chick-fil-A is a privately held corporation, I’m not too sure where you might be getting your info about their profitability, ROI, or any other business or balance sheet info. Just because they are not as large as McDonalds (another restaurant chain that I think serves bland crap and do not frequent.) says nothing about their business success. Size alone means shit! If one looks at growth rate, they ARE up there. They are growing as KFC, Pizza Hut, even DQ are shrinking. And the $/store beating McD’s says they are NOT second rate.
In ‘n’ Out Burgers is, by far, the BEST burger chain around. They maintain the highest qualities in food freshness, even cut their own fries in each store through the day. AND they pay their employees But they are also limited geographically and have less than 300 stores. You would be the idiot to call them ANYTHING less than 1st-rate. Of course, neither you nor Mule would know that they also inconspicuously print Bible verse references on their paper products.
It’s like saying restaurant Daniel is tenth rate because there is only one. But don’t let it’s 4-star rating keep you from saying so, and looking more foolish!
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#391 written by shortchain 9 months ago
Max,
True, we do not know what the profitability of a privately-held business is. But we do know, from available data, that franchisees make about 190K/yr — about half or less what franchisess of, say, McDonalds make, on average. It is logical to assume that the profits accruing to the parent corporation are on the order of 400K times 1600 (about 640M), which is peanuts compared to what McDonalds takes in.If you think they’re top-tier, why don’t you and Mule get together and buy a franchise? They only cost 5K. And they’ll never pay what you could make as even a moderately successful lawyer. Hell, a reasonably successful dentist would make a better living, but I suppose if your abilities don’t get you into a real profession…
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#392 written by Max 9 months ago
sc,
Perhaps you recently ate something that did not agree with you as the reason you are being so disagreeable. Maybe a Big Mac? Or maybe the Taco Bell (another no-no) hot sauce has your piles in a bit of an uproar?
I know you usually are better at debate.
Perhaps you might like to take the In ‘n’ Out argument to folks like Batali, Ramsay and Bourdain. It even got a thumbs up in Fast Food Nation. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-N-Out_Burger)
For me owning a restaurant is out. The hours suck. But In ‘n’ Out IS beginning to build in TX. They have already built several in the Metroplex and as soon as they get to San Antonio I WILL be there!
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#393 written by shortchain 9 months ago
Max,
Why are you blathering about “In and Out”? They’re strictly a regional operation, and I do not know, or care about them. We can neither invest in the company nor even buy a franchise.Pretending that a smaller company is not second-rate because it’s not expanding is a real down-is-up argument. At the rate these companies are expanding, they’ll be the size of one of the larger chains in, oh, maybe forty years. When that happens, maybe they won’t be second-rate.
Now, they may be good companies to work for. They may serve good food. But a company is basically a money-factory, and if you measure a company by any measure but profits (and future profits, of course, which, in these smaller companies are purely imaginary), you are simply dim.
Take care, now.
Oh, and “disagreeable”? Just trying to be “honest”. I can’t compete on the “disagreeable” axis with either you or Mule.
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#394 written by Max 9 months ago
sc,
“regional, etc.”
Well, actually, it was your inane post about “second rate” over Chick-fil-A which is also pretty much a regional company that is in the expansion phase. dc, then Mule, then I, all pointed out the vapidness of your statement. Seems as though all you base your opinion of a restaurant on is # of stores. And we have all pointed out that such ain’t necessarily so. There is no “honesty” in that position. Especially when it is shown to you that store volume comps has them beating McD’s!
Many folks that eat out find consistent quality, freshness, value and service much more important in giving a grade to a restaurant that number of outlets.
But if that’s the best you got, guess you gotta eat what’s on your plate!
Best and good eats!
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#395 written by Armchair Warlord 9 months ago
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#398 written by Armchair Warlord 9 months ago
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#399 written by Max 9 months ago
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About Michael Weiss (324 posts)
Michael is a jack of many trades, and master of a few. His varied background includes government and private businesses, both large and small. His experience in the financial services and computer industries has led him to computer security.





@mclever,
Thanks for making that point.