Obama Has Led Better

Lilly Led­bet­ter with Pres­i­dent Barack Obama at the cer­e­mo­nial sign­ing of the Lilly Led­bet­ter Fair Pay Act

Pun­dits and politi­cians who oppose the Pres­i­dent this year like to mock Pres­i­dent Obama’s record. In fact, com­mon wis­dom has it that Repub­li­cans wanted the Pres­i­den­tial elec­tion to be a ref­er­en­dum on Pres­i­dent Obama rather than a choice between him and his Repub­li­can oppo­nent. Putting aside some of the inten­tional mis­rep­re­sen­ta­tion of that record, what can we say about what the Pres­i­dent has been doing? It would be worth­while to dis­cuss the things Pres­i­dent Obama has done, in a series of arti­cles lead­ing up to the election.

Let’s start at the begin­ning. The very first bill that Pres­i­dent Obama signed into law, on Jan­u­ary 29, 2009, was the Lilly Led­bet­ter Fair Pay Act. The bill was named after a woman who retired from Goodyear Tire and Rub­ber Com­pany in 1998, who then sued her for­mer employer for hav­ing paid her less, through­out her career, than her male coun­ter­parts. Unfor­tu­nately, the statute of lim­i­ta­tions had expired on her claim; accord­ing to what was then the cur­rent law, a claimant had to allege dis­crim­i­na­tion within 180 days of its occur­rence. Ms. Led­bet­ter had been hired many years pre­vi­ously, and the dis­crim­i­na­tion had been ongo­ing for many bad years — since 1979 — with­out legal action.

Some­how, that made it okay. The Supreme Court said so.

The case as brought to the Supreme Court didn’t deal with con­sti­tu­tional issues, but with the inter­pre­ta­tion of fed­eral law. Led­bet­ter alleged that her sit­u­a­tion was one in which “dis­parate pay is received dur­ing the statu­tory lim­i­ta­tions period, but is the result of inten­tion­ally dis­crim­i­na­tory pay deci­sions that occurred out­side the lim­i­ta­tions period.” The major­ity deci­sion said Led­bet­ter “could have, and should have, sued” at the time the ini­tial dis­crim­i­na­tory pay deci­sions were made.

The prob­lem with this is that most employ­ers dis­cour­age employ­ees from dis­cussing their pay with other employ­ees. In fact, many employ­ers — Goodyear included — will actu­ally fire employ­ees who dis­cuss their pay with other employ­ees. It is there­fore extremely dif­fi­cult for an employee to dis­cover (let alone prove) that he or she has been the vic­tim of pay dis­crim­i­na­tion. In this case, it would have been impos­si­ble for Led­bet­ter to uncover the sex­ual dis­crim­i­na­tion in Goodyear’s pay scales with­out los­ing her job, until after she no longer held her job.

Ms. Led­bet­ter filed suit under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Equal Pay Act of 1963. The orig­i­nal case was decided in her favor, but Goodyear appealed. The Eleventh Cir­cuit Court reversed that rul­ing, and Ms. Led­bet­ter brought the case to the Supreme Court. She lost.

The deci­sion by the court seemed to make a mock­ery of these civil rights laws, by admit­ting they have no teeth if the cor­po­ra­tion which vio­lates them can effec­tively hide the vio­la­tion for a length of time beyond a 180-​​day statute of lim­i­ta­tions. The idea behind a statute of lim­i­ta­tions is that after a cer­tain length of time (which varies by the crime), a vio­la­tion of the law is either very hard to prove, or is no longer rel­e­vant, or was some­thing (as in cases like this) where the aggrieved party had been con­sent­ing to the arrange­ment and per­haps brought suit for rea­sons unre­lated to the unfair­ness that the law was intended to prevent.

Jus­tice Ruth Bader Gins­burg wrote a scathing dis­sent to the major­ity opin­ion, in which she was joined by Jus­tices John Stevens, David Souter, and Stephen Breyer. She argued that pay dis­crim­i­na­tion often occurs in small incre­ments over long stretches of time, and is not obvi­ous until long after the statute of lim­i­ta­tions has expired. Fur­ther, she noted (as I did above) that cor­po­ra­tions make it very dif­fi­cult for pay dis­crim­i­na­tion to be dis­cov­ered, by exact­ing penal­ties when employ­ees dis­cuss or reveal their pay.

The major­ity opin­ion, deny­ing any relief for Led­bet­ter, was writ­ten by Jus­tice Samuel Alito. He was joined by Jus­tices Antonin Scalia, Anthony Kennedy, Clarence Thomas, and Chief Jus­tice John Roberts. The deci­sion did not pre­vent suits under other laws, like the Equal Pay Act, which has a three-​​year dead­line for most sex dis­crim­i­na­tion claims, or 42 U.S.C. 1981 (“Equal Rights Under the Law”), which has a four-​​year dead­line for suing over race discrimination.

In 2007, the House of Rep­re­sen­ta­tives passed a bill to cor­rect this prob­lem. The pro­posed law would count each pay­check as a new instance of dis­crim­i­na­tion, and would reset the clock for the 180-​​day statute of lim­i­ta­tions each time an employee is payed. Thus, a claimant would only have to file a law­suit within 180 days of the last pay­check. The bill died in the Sen­ate, because it failed to pass a clo­ture vote forced by Sen­ate Repub­li­cans. Dur­ing the 2008 pres­i­den­tial cam­paign, John McCain pub­licly opposed the bill, and Barack Obama pub­licly sup­ported it. This was one of the many issues dis­cussed dur­ing the cam­paign, and it was brought up dur­ing the pres­i­den­tial debates.

A new ver­sion of the bill was pro­posed in the 111th Con­gress. It passed the Senate’s clo­ture motion. It was signed by Pres­i­dent Obama nine days after his inauguration.

This step to com­bat gen­der dis­crim­i­na­tion in the work­place may not win Pres­i­dent Obama many votes in his 2012 reëlec­tion cam­paign, mostly because a) it was signed almost four years ago (Amer­i­can vot­ers have short mem­o­ries), and b) it is a rel­a­tively obscure bit of civil rights law.  It is, how­ever, an indi­ca­tion of where the heart of this Pres­i­dent lies — and where the intent of the Repub­li­can Party rests in their oppo­si­tion to it. (See: war on women.)

Any list of the accom­plish­ments of Pres­i­dent Obama must include men­tion of his sup­port for, and sign­ing of, the Lilly Led­bet­ter Fair Pay Act of 2009. It is now legal to bring suit for pay dis­crim­i­na­tion within 180 days of any dis­crim­i­na­tory pay­check — not just the first such pay­check — because of Pres­i­dent Obama. It is one way he has led bet­ter, and but one exam­ple of why he deserves to have a good year.




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  1. I’m home from my annual hik­ing trip in north­ern Mon­tana. We drove through a num­ber of small and rugged prairie ranch­ing towns… Havre, Chi­nook, Glas­gow, Forth Belk­nap… and I was stunned that we didn’t see ONE Rom­ney sign or bumper sticker. Not one. Nor did we see more than a hand­ful of Rehberg lawn signs.

    There were  a few Obama bumper stick­ers and win­dow posters, and dozens of Jon Tester signs on tele­phone poles, barbed wire fences and cor­ral rails.

    Con­sid­er­ing this was a rural area and the cities (Great Falls, Helena, Mis­soula and Billings) are quite blue, I think it’s prob­a­bly safe to say that Tester holds his Sen­ate seat and Obama even has a pretty good chance of tak­ing Montana.

  2. Sorry… the post above should prob­a­bly have gone in the “Sen­ate roundup” thread.

    I’m still a bit groggy from all that sun­shine, fresh air, stren­u­ous exer­cise and gor­geous scenery :-)

  3. fil­istro, It’s okay to have your com­ment here, too. It is rel­e­vant to the pres­i­den­tial elec­tion, and my dis­cus­sion of the Lilly Led­bet­ter Act cer­tainly is as well.

    If I could put on a rightie hat for a moment, per­haps you saw no Rom­ney stick­ers or lawn signs because Repub­li­cans are con­fi­dant they’re going to take Mon­tana, and so aren’t both­er­ing to spend money there. (I like your view of it better.)

  4. I’m still a bit groggy from all that sun­shine, fresh air, stren­u­ous exer­cise and gor­geous scenery

    Yes. Well it’s a tru­ism that dim lights, thick smoke and loud, loud music, mixed with equal parts of cheap bour­bon whiskey and pearl snap shirts, are much bet­ter for one’s aware­ness and well-​​being.

  5. Thanks DC. This appears to be a very good con­cise sum­mary of the LL Law.I frankly didn’t know what the law was about before read­ing this arti­cle. I now am more con­vinced that the law is a big noth­ing­burger and Obama prob­a­bly only passed it so he could play iden­tity pol­i­tics with it. Whatta shock.

  6. @Max… dim lights, thick smoke and loud, loud music, mixed with equal parts of cheap bour­bon whiskey and pearl snap shirts

    Hey Max… you’ve been to one of my fam­ily reunions!

    DC… Lily Led­bet­ter her­self is one of the best polit­i­cal spokes­peo­ple I’ve ever seen. She seems so plain-​​spoken, down to earth and can­did. It’s kind of star­tling to lis­ten to her, like an actual human per­son talk­ing to all the stuffed shirts and spe­cial inter­ests in a known earth­ling lan­guage. I wish the link below your arti­cle with her say­ing those words… “Paul Ryan scares me to death”… could be made into a cam­paign com­mer­cial and played everywhere.

    And yes… I think Dems will do very well in Mon­tana and some other west­ern states this year. The salt-​​of-​​the-​​earth coun­try folk have long been Repub­li­can, but they are get­ting the feel­ing nowa­days that Repub­li­can­ism is all about abor­tion, extrem­ism, Grover Norquist and big breaks for the wealthy. That’s not what they care about. There is a lot of bit­ter­ness against the GOP estab­lish­ment. It may not moti­vate them to vote Demo­c­rat, at least not yet, after all those years of party loy­alty, but it will depress Repub­li­can turnout.  Because out­side Utah there is NO enthu­si­asm for Rom­ney out here. I mean, zero. NONE.

    The boot-​​scootin’ guys and gals at the Cow­boy Bar in Malta, Mon­tana feel a whole lot more kin­ship with Lily Led­bet­ter than they do with Willard RMoney.

  7. Yes, rgbact, con­ser­v­a­tives as a rule do not think it is impor­tant — or even desir­able — to pre­vent dis­crim­i­na­tion, either on the basis of sex or race, age or dis­abil­ity, sex­ual ori­en­ta­tion or eth­nic­ity. Dis­crim­i­na­tory prac­tices are pretty much okay with many con­ser­v­a­tives (in fact, such prac­tices are often seen as prefer­able). And yes, attempts to com­bat dis­crim­i­na­tory prac­tices are often den­i­grated, by con­ser­v­a­tives, as being mere “pol­i­tics,” as if pro­tect­ing human rights was noth­ing more than a par­lor game.

  8. Re: rgbact’s ad nau­seam Obama neg­a­tiv­ity … at my first polit­i­cal forum where the dis­cus­sion was soooo heated some­times “we” had (3) day lock out peri­ods where no one was allowed to post at the cur­rent affairs forum. Any­way, one time a mod­er­a­tor asked that each “side” say some­thing nice about the other side.

    I posted Abra­ham Lin­coln was the great­est Amer­i­can pres­i­dent and I also liked Teddy and Ike. As sayin’ some­thing nice about cur­rent day cons would have been lying lol. IIRC the time period was 20052006 when Bush’s Iraq War was going totally south and cons were falling over them­selves try­ing to defend Bush! :D Fun times …

    I digress.

    In the final analy­sis rgbact is just fol­low­ing mit­tens’ lead as he ran 95% neg­a­tive ads against train wrecks Newt/​Santo/​Perry etc. in the pri­maries and is now run­nin’ 99% neg­a­tive ads against Obama. ie Repub­li­cans are awash in/​consumed with neg­a­tiv­ity.

    >

    Re: Mon­tana, Dems are very good at retail pol­i­tics, whereas Reps are bet­ter at scorched earth pol­i­tics. And Mon­tana feels like a retail pol­i­tics kinda state to me. Same w/​ND which is why Heidi Heitkamp is doing well.

    Remem­ber MT is the state that took Cit­i­zens United to the SC …

  9. I can only speak of Texas and this was 15 years ago.  It was/​is against the law for salaried employ­ees to dis­cuss their wages.  It is okay for hourly employ­ees to dis­cuss their wages.  This is based on hourly employ­ees hav­ing the right to orga­nize and cre­ate a union to pro­tect the rights of those hourly employ­ees.  Salaried employ­ees have no such rights or the options to bring in union representation.

    On 2 occa­sions with the same com­pany I hired a lawyer to find out my rights.  The first time I had none, but opted to play my hand out as if I did and won the argu­ment and my raise.  The sec­ond one, I was forced into a Equal Rights fil­ing to pro­tect my job.  In the end, the com­pany said I was a com­plete loser and only filed to pre­vent los­ing my job based on lazi­ness and incom­pe­tence.  This judge­ment after I received a pay raise, pro­mo­tion and per­for­mance bonus.  I was such a slacker.

  10. Led­bet­ter act is a joke — just another rea­son to vote against Obama.  Invi­ta­tion for junk laswsuits, noth­ing more than that.

  11. Oh yes, pay dis­crim­i­na­tion on the basis of sex is a true joke, park­sie. It never hap­pens. Some­thing like “legit­i­mate rape”. [/​sarcasm]

  12. park­sie,
    3 ques­tions:

    1. Was the treat­ment of Lily Led­bet­ter fine, in your eyes?
    2. If the answer the first ques­tion was “yes”, skip this ques­tion.  Oth­er­wise, what should be done about the ongo­ing treat­ment of many, many women in the same way she was?
    3. Do you feel the same way about Affir­ma­tive Action?
  13. Let the record show that park­sie SUPPORTS screw­ing over employ­ees with­out their knowl­edge, even though the method of the screw­ing is ille­gal. It fol­lows that he then believes one can ignore laws with which one dis­agrees, vio­late those laws, and get off scot-​​free.

    He should hope that some­one never decides to ignore the law against bat­tery or homi­cide as per­tains to HIM.

    For such is the nat­ural extrap­o­la­tion of his position.

  14. No, Max, that is not an accu­rate char­ac­ter­i­za­tion of my position.

    I of course do not sup­port “screw­ing over of employ­ees with­out their knowl­edge” (although that cer­tainly begs the ques­tion of how bad can that screw­ing really be if the employee is unaware of it).

    How­ever I also do not sup­port need­less addi­tional red tape and lay­ers of addi­tional legal pro­tec­tion that will be required for com­pa­nies to adhere to laws that are unnec­es­sary in today’s world.

    The bot­tom line is if you are unhappy with your pay, either rene­go­ti­ate with your employer or walk.  If you are valu­able, they will keep you.  If not, they won’t.  And if a com­pany dis­crim­i­nates against qual­i­fied employ­ees strictly because of their a) race b) gen­der c) what­ever then even­tu­ally they will suf­fer because they are los­ing access to a pool of tal­ent that other com­pa­nies can access.

    Now every­one will pay a lit­tle more for goods and ser­vices because of an addi­tional layer of red tape and friv­o­lous lawsuits.

    It’s the basic dif­fer­ence in phi­los­o­phy between those that sup­port Obama and those that do not.  Either rely on your own ini­tia­tive and do some­thing about your unhap­pi­ness (non-​​Obama sup­port­ers) or sit on your ass and wait for some­one else to do it for you, at every­body else’s expense (Obama supporters).

  15. park­sie,
    Show us a few exam­ples of com­pa­nies that dis­crim­i­nated against qual­i­fied employ­ees on the basis of race or gen­der and which then suffered.

    Your phi­los­o­phy is called “Social Dar­win­ism”.  Look it up.

  16. I think parksie’s point is that it’s okay to dis­crim­i­nate based on race, gen­der, or any­thing else, pro­vided the peo­ple dis­crim­i­nated against either a) are kept in the dark about it, or b) are intim­i­dated into silence, or c) are suf­fi­ciently happy (or insuf­fi­ciently unhappy) with the discrimination.

    Pre­sum­ably, we shouldn’t have police or fire depart­ments or a mil­i­tary, or pub­lic schools, or fed­eral meat inspec­tions, or air traf­fic con­trollers, or water and sewage, or garbage col­lec­tion, or national high­ways, or even insur­ance com­pa­nies — because peo­ple should get off their asses and take care of themselves.

    What you for­get, partk­sie, is that action taken as a nation is peo­ple tak­ing care of them­selves. This is how we do it in a democ­racy. We the Peo­ple decide what We are going to do. If you want to take care of your­self and not have to worry about any­one else, go live in the mid­dle of the Gobi desert. Either that or tell the National Weather Ser­vice to leave your state out of its storm warnings.

  17. Max,

    Let the record show that park­sie SUPPORTS screw­ing over employ­ees with­out their knowl­edge, even though the method of the screw­ing is illegal.

    I think you’re mis­char­ac­ter­iz­ing his posi­tion. He sup­ports legal­iz­ing that method of screwing.

  18. Chain — You mean like the big Wal­mart law­suit that got thrown out of court?  Or the Led­bet­ter case itself that also got thrown out of court? 

    I’m hav­ing a hard time find­ing a case where dis­crim­i­na­tion has been proven. It just doesn’t hap­pen all that often.

    But go ahead and show me a few cases where com­pa­nies have been proved to dis­crim­i­nate and we’ll take a look at how the com­pa­nies per­formed before and after.

    In most of these friv­o­lous extor­tion cases law­suits, the com­pany pays a small set­tle­ment to avoid the has­sle of a trial.  Nobody proves any­thing in these cases.

  19. dc — How you can go from “Doesn’t sup­port the Lily Led­bet­ter act” to abol­ish­ing all civil ser­vice, insur­ance com­pa­nies, pub­lic schools, and air traf­fic con­trollers is beyond me, but if you feel that accu­rately reflects my posi­tion it truly speaks vol­umes about the level of dis­course on this site and who is respon­si­ble for it.

  20. park­sie,

    I’m hav­ing a hard time find­ing a case where dis­crim­i­na­tion has been proven.

    I haven’t looked into the case law much, but I have seen absolutely clear proof of it hap­pen­ing, because I was in a posi­tion to see it. And, hav­ing been in that posi­tion, I also under­stand how and why it persists.

    One rea­son why we don’t have many such law­suits: in many, many instances it is a vio­la­tion of either crim­i­nal or civil law to obtain the evi­dence nec­es­sary to obtain a judg­ment in the plaintiff’s favor. Imag­ine how few con­vic­tions the DA would have if he wasn’t able to col­lect evi­dence that a crime had been com­mit­ted in the first place.

  21. park­sie,
    You are the one who made the claim.  You sup­port it with exam­ples.  Can’t find any?  Gosh, that would make a nor­mal per­son won­der if maybe that asser­tion wasn’t true.

    Let’s turn it around.  Are there any com­pa­nies in the recent past that, once suc­cess­ful, have fallen on hard times, and see why.  I can give you a few exam­ples: BP, Dig­i­tal Equip­ment Corp (DEC), GMC, FMC — and the list goes on and on.  Did any of these com­pa­nies suf­fer because they dis­crim­i­nated?  (We observe that any com­pany that has been in exis­tence for more than 30 years is cer­tain to have prac­ticed dis­crim­i­na­tion based on gen­der — it was rou­tine and not even remark­able until the late seventies.)

    I would say that, to what extent these com­pa­nies have suf­fered, it has not been due to any dis­crim­i­na­tion issues.

  22. Park­sie, 

    You may want to edu­cate your­self regard­ing the rea­son why Lilly Ledbetter’s case was “thrown out” before you go spout­ing off about it.

  23. Can’t find any exam­ples?  Gosh, that would make a nor­mal per­son think that there really isn’t a whole lot of dis­crim­i­na­tion, wouldn’t it?

  24. dc — How you can go from “Doesn’t sup­port the Lily Led­bet­ter act” to
    abol­ish­ing all civil ser­vice, insur­ance com­pa­nies, pub­lic
    schools, and air traf­fic con­trollers is beyond me

    Sim­ple. Let me quote you on it (#15).

      Either rely on your own ini­tia­tive and do some­thing about your
    unhap­pi­ness (non-​​​​Obama sup­port­ers) or sit on your ass and wait for
    some­one else to do it for you, at every­body else’s expense (Obama
    supporters).

    Do you agree with your state­ment or do you not?

  25. You mean like … the Led­bet­ter case itself that also got thrown out
    of court?

    It didn’t get “thrown out of court.” That phrase implies that the courts found the case to have no merit and refused to hear it. In point of fact, the orig­i­nal trial court, the appeals court, and SCOTUS all thought the issues had suf­fi­cient merit to be heard.

    Nor was the final deci­sion based on a ques­tion of whether there had been dis­crim­i­na­tion, but sim­ply on the ques­tion of whether the statute of lim­i­ta­tions had expired. Goodyear had inten­tion­ally hid­den the dis­crim­i­na­tion they had been doing, by mak­ing it impos­si­ble to obtain evi­dence of that dis­crim­i­na­tion in a timely man­ner while also remain­ing employed.

    What the Lily Led­bet­ter Act does is make it eas­ier to obtain rel­e­vant evi­dence — which makes it eas­ier to see whether or not dis­crim­i­na­tion is hap­pen­ing. If it isn’t hap­pen­ing, then any “friv­o­lous” law­suit can be eas­ily shown to be such, and would, in fact, be “thrown out of court.”

    You appar­ently don’t trust the courts much. Is obtain­ing jus­tice one more thing peo­ple should get off their asses and do for themselves?

  26. dc — It’s a basic philo­soph­i­cal dif­fer­ence — in gen­eral, it’s bet­ter to rely on your­self than rely on oth­ers.  But of course it does not mean that we abol­ish all civil ser­vices, pub­lic schools, insur­ance com­pa­nies, and air traf­fic controllers.

    Do you agree that it is pos­si­ble that there are shades of grey between black and white?

  27. Do you agree that it is pos­si­ble that there are shades of grey between black and white?

    Yes. Which is why your black-​​and-​​white state­ment I quoted from #15 (which includes, by the way, com­plete mis­un­der­stand­ing of oppos­ing opin­ion) was so dis­ap­point­ing and needed to be challenged.

    By the way, the Lily Led­bet­ter Act doesn’t let any­one “sit on your ass and wait for some­one else to do it for you, at every­body else’s expense,” so I assumed you weren’t talk­ing about that Act at all. You made what you said was a state­ment of “the basic dif­fer­ence in phi­los­o­phy between those that sup­port Obama and those that do not.”

    So I ask again — do you agree with the state­ment I pre­vi­ously quoted from #15, or do you not? If you feel that there are “shades of grey” then we can have a con­ver­sa­tion about which areas should be left com­pletely up to the indi­vid­ual, and which require action as a nation. We can even talk about the sup­port struc­tures that make this “indi­vid­ual action” possible.

    But as long as you sim­ply repeat empty talk­ing points, we can’t have a ratio­nal con­ver­sa­tion about it.

  28. dc — Of course I agree with my state­ment in #15.  And of course I agree that there are shades of grey.

    My take on the Led­bet­ter act is that it makes it eas­ier to file friv­o­lous law­suits, and that there are much bet­ter ways to address the issue if you feel you are not being paid appro­pri­ately.  Call it “light grey”.

    Your take is that the Led­bet­ter act is nec­es­sary to ensure that women and minori­ties are paid appro­pri­ately, and it is appro­pri­ate for soci­ety as a whole to pay more for goods and ser­vices to ensure that this is so.  Call it “dark grey”

    Is that an accu­rate rep­re­sen­ta­tion of our posi­tions on Ledbetter?

  29. Is that an accu­rate rep­re­sen­ta­tion of our posi­tions on Ledbetter?

    I don’t know if it’s an accu­rate descrip­tion of your posi­tion. You did not accu­rately describe mine.

  30. Out of the fol­low­ing ser­vices — police, fire, pub­lic schools, mil­i­tary, weather ser­vice, air traf­fic con­trol, national weather ser­vice — which ones of those is it appro­pri­ate to “rely on your own ini­tia­tive and do some­thing about your unhap­pi­ness,” and in which ones is it okay to “sit on your ass and wait for some­one else to do it for you, at every­body else’s expense”?

  31. park­sie,
    You didn’t read care­fully enough.  Each and every one of those com­pa­nies unques­tion­ably prac­ticed pay dis­crim­i­na­tion based on sex, and each and every one of them later fell on hard times — but in every case (and I’m inti­mately famil­iar with a few of them) their hard times were not due to the dis­crim­i­na­tion, except, per­haps, in that they were not led by the most capa­ble people*.

    (*By the way, the top ech­e­lons of vir­tu­ally all mod­ern busi­nesses are dom­i­nated by men, so there’s no way to claim that these com­pa­nies that suf­fered were any dif­fer­ent in that respect from suc­cess­ful ones.)

  32. The LAW IS that there be no wage dis­crim­i­na­tion because of gender.

    The ques­tion was: “ Was the treat­ment of Lily Led­bet­ter fine, in your eyes?
    Led­bet­ter was “treated” in a dis­crim­i­na­tory man­ner AGAINST THE LAW.

    The answer by park­sie was: “ 1) Yes

    Q.E.D.: park­sie sup­ported action con­trary to the law. That was not a qual­i­fied “yes”. Only later, after being called out à la Akin, did park­sie attempt to qual­ify his position.

    Well then why don’t you “edu­cate” me, most­ly­il­urk?

    Gen­er­ally would mean: “I pre­fer to stay sat­is­fied with my igno­rance, than do a bit of research that would cause me to show myself incorrect.”

    As with many peo­ple who have not taken the time to under­stand a bit about the law, park­sie does not know, or under­stand, the legal mean­ings of “friv­o­lous” or of “at issue”.

  33. park­sie,
    Since most­ly­il­urk hasn’t been back to edu­cate you, I’ll fill in. Ledbetter’s case was thrown out because of the Supreme Court’s inter­pre­ta­tion of the statute of lim­i­ta­tions, not because she hadn’t proven her prima facie case. The Lily Led­bet­ter Act clar­i­fies the statute of lim­i­ta­tions in such a man­ner as to over­ride the Supreme Court’s inter­pre­ta­tion, and does noth­ing more.

  34. Each and every one of those com­pa­nies unques­tion­ably prac­ticed pay dis­crim­i­na­tion based on sex”

    You know this how?

  35. OK dc — char­ac­ter­ize for me your posi­tion on Led­bet­ter than.

    And no fair just say­ing “I sup­port it” :)

  36. As to #30:

      it is appro­pri­ate for soci­ety as a whole to pay more for goods and ser­vices to ensure that this is so.

    If employ­ers adhere to the law, then there would be no need for any addi­tional costs to be paid for by society.

    If an employee brings a suit against an employer that has no basis IN FACT, that suit will cer­tainly be thrown out, upon Motion, by the judge. Per­haps of the judge’s “own Motion”. A per­son so bring­ing such a suit could be liable for fil­ing or car­ry­ing for­ward a “friv­o­lous” action and would be sub­ject to civil penal­ties as well as costs and fees of the defendant(s).

    If an employee brings a suit against an employer that has even SOME basis in fact, then there are legal mat­ters “at issue” right­fully to be deter­mined by the Court. It is then the duty of the jury, or bench, to deter­mine the actual facts of the case, and make a deter­mi­na­tion, based on a pre­pon­der­ance of evi­dence pre­sented at trial, as to whether or not a crime or tort did occur, and in many juris­dic­tions, the extent of lia­bil­ity of BOTH par­ties. Then to assign APPROPRIATE relief, based on law.

    Sim­ply because you do not agree with the law as writ­ten, or under­stand squat about the LAW, does not meet the def­i­n­i­tion of “friv­o­lous”, park­sie. It only demon­strates the applic­a­ble point I made in the ear­lier comment

  37. There are so many other fac­tors that could affect the per­for­mance of a com­pany above and beyond dis­crim­i­na­tory pay prac­tices that it is highly doubt­ful that chain or I will be able to prove our asser­tion.  I think it would be silly to argue oth­er­wise.  Any com­pany that is stu­pid enough to will­fully dis­crim­i­nate with regards to salary is prob­a­bly doing lots of other dumb things anyway.

    But I base my asser­tion on logic.  Chain does not offer any logic to sup­port his position.

  38. So Max, I guess in your opin­ion that no friv­o­lous law­suit has ever gone to trial ?

  39.  “Each and every one of those com­pa­nies unques­tion­ably prac­ticed pay dis­crim­i­na­tion based on sex”

    You know this how?

    short­chain. Could it be that each and every one of those com­pa­nies were los­ing par­ties in pay dis­crim­i­na­tion actions in court?

  40. Per #41.

    park­sie, please give me YOUR def­i­n­i­tions of “friv­o­lous law­suit” and “gone to trial” as per­tains to your question.

  41. park­sie,

    You need to do MUCH bet­ter than your “urban­ti­tan” opin­ion piece. Because as soon as the Liebeck v McDon­alds is called “friv­o­lous” they proved their igno­rance. Addi­tion­ally, the $600K set­tle­ment they write about is false as that set­tle­ment was sealed and all we actu­ally know is that it was some­thing LESS than $600K.

    But since you held out the Liebeck case, and you evi­dently believe it to be friv­o­lous, why don’t we use that exam­ple and you give us your knowl­edge of the case and why you believe it “frivolous”.

  42. park­sie,
    So, if I under­stand your posi­tion cor­rectly, you want to ensure that there are no wrongly-​​decided civil cases, and the way to do that is to make it so hard to bring suit that peo­ple can’t bring suit any­more. If I’m mis­taken, please clar­ify the logic path.

  43. My posi­tion is accu­rately reflected here:

    http://​www​.insid​e​coun​sel​.com/​2​0​1​1​/​0​7​/​2​2​/​f​r​i​v​o​l​o​u​s​-​l​a​w​s​u​i​t​s​-​c​l​o​g​g​i​n​g​-​u​s​-​c​o​u​r​t​s​-​s​t​a​l​l​i​n​g​-​eco

    I want to reduce friv­o­lous law­suits and the amount of resources expended defend­ing against them.  There­fore I sup­port the Law­suit Abuse Reduc­tion Act of 2011 and think that Obama would have done bet­ter to throw his sup­port behind this leg­is­la­tion than Lily Ledbetter.

  44. A woman spilled cof­fee upon her­self and wasted a tremen­dous amount of resources in secur­ing a set­tle­ment for her greedy self.

    That’s my knowl­edge of the case.

    Please edu­cate me if this dif­fers from the truth.

  45. I know these com­pa­nies prac­ticed pay dis­crim­i­na­tion based on sex from per­sonal infor­ma­tion (my mother dis­cov­ered, to her shock, that she made almost exactly half what the men made who did exactly the same job — only not as well) as well as hav­ing worked at some of them, and break­ing the rules to dis­cuss pay (author­ity is another thing I don’t have a lot of respect for).

    But this is hardly arguable — it was uni­ver­sal in the 60s, and rou­tine in the 70s for women to get much lower pay for the same job.  This is well documented.

    Again, park­sie — YOU made the asser­tion that com­pa­nies that prac­tice pay dis­crim­i­na­tion will suf­fer.  Show that that is the case by exam­ple, by math­e­mat­i­cal proof, or retract your asser­tion.  Don’t ask me to prove that no com­pany who ever prac­ticed pay dis­crim­i­na­tion based on sex never suf­fered from it  — ever hear that “you can’t prove a negative”?

  46. Park­sie,

    I agree that the 10 law­suits you cite at the link are indeed friv­o­lous, but I don’t see how that remotely equates to a woman suing for being under­paid sim­ply because she is a woman. Wage dis­crim­i­na­tion is against the law, and it’s not friv­o­lous. Hav­ing valid law­suits dis­missed because of an unrea­son­able statute of lim­i­ta­tions is also not friv­o­lous, which is what the LL Act addresses.

    Speak­ing from per­sonal expe­ri­ence, I know a mar­ried cou­ple who worked their first jobs for the same com­pany before get­ting mar­ried. Both she and he grad­u­ated from the same top-​​10 school with sim­i­lar degrees and GPAs, though she was two years ahead of him. How­ever, when they got mar­ried, they dis­cov­ered that he was being paid sub­stan­tially more than she was, despite hav­ing two years less work expe­ri­ence. When she asked HR about the dis­par­ity, they said that she could be ter­mi­nated for dis­cussing pay with co-​​workers. She pointed out that the co-​​worker in ques­tion was her hus­band. They decided they couldn’t fire her for know­ing her husband’s salary, but they said the dis­par­ity was because she didn’t go to a good enough col­lege. When she reminded them that she and he went to the same school, they said it was because he had a math-​​related degree. When she pointed out that she also had a math degree, they said it was because he had a GPA over 3.75, which she also had. They next tried to sug­gest it was per­for­mance related, but she could point to three years of exem­plary reviews, while her hus­band had only been work­ing for one year so far. When they ran out of excuses for why the dis­par­ity existed, they said that they couldn’t make up the dif­fer­ence in pay with her next mar­ket adjust­ment raise, because the per­cent­age increase would be too large and would vio­late their pol­icy for the max­i­mum allow­able salary increase per year. (In fact, when she received a pro­mo­tion shortly after this dis­cus­sion, they had to reduce her salary below the “band” for her new posi­tion, because giv­ing her the min­i­mum salary for her new posi­tion also would have vio­lated their pol­icy on max­i­mum salary increases. And it still left her mak­ing less than her hus­band, who was still her junior.)

    How­ever, she couldn’t bring suit against her employer charg­ing dis­crim­i­na­tion because: 1) at the time(*), she only had direct knowl­edge of two employ­ees’ salaries, which makes it dif­fi­cult to estab­lish a pat­tern even if one clearly exists. 2) the statute of lim­i­ta­tions as then defined meant she would have had to bring suit eigh­teen months before she dis­cov­ered the dis­crep­ancy, (and six months before her hus­band even started work­ing there) which would have been impos­si­ble given that she would have been fired if she’d known then what any of her male co-​​workers were mak­ing. She knows this is true, because she and her hus­band talked to a lawyer about it, and that was the advice given.

    So, that’s why a lot of dis­crim­i­na­tion cases don’t get filed, even if they aren’t “friv­o­lous.” If the LL Act had been in effect, the woman in the story above would have been able to file her case and prob­a­bly receive sev­eral thou­sand dol­lars in com­pen­sa­tion from her and her husband’s employer. That’s not frivolous.

    (*) I will note that the cou­ple later was able to obtain salary infor­ma­tion which con­firmed that she was paid approx­i­mately 5% less than the next-​​lowest-​​paid male in her com­pany with the same posi­tion and level of expe­ri­ence. When con­trolled for those receiv­ing “exem­plary” reviews, the dis­par­ity increased to over 10%. This was a large com­pany with over 30,000 employ­ees, so the dis­par­ity was par­tic­u­larly stun­ning, espe­cially con­sid­er­ing that other women were sim­i­larly under­paid. But again, the statute of lim­i­ta­tions pre­vented any case from being considered.

  47. park­sie in #48 you admit to a woe­ful igno­rance of the facts about the case. AND you did NOT demon­strate the action’s friv­o­lous nature as a result. All you did was voice an opin­ion based on that igno­rance of both facts and the law.

    The case was NOT friv­o­lous by ANY legal definition.

  48. mc,

    The 10 cases that park­sie alleged ARE NOT all friv­o­lous, and you do a dis­ser­vice to the truth by so stating.

    And the Weather case was NOT in the US, but Great Britain.

  49. @mclever,
    Ah, but did that com­pany suf­fer as a result of their dis­crim­i­na­tion?  That, after all, is one of the things that park­sie is claiming.

  50. I should add that the com­pany in the above anec­dote never suf­fered any ill effects for their dis­crim­i­na­tion, aside from los­ing two highly-​​qualified employ­ees… They are a thriv­ing, well-​​known, very prof­itable con­sult­ing firm. It is not presently known if they still main­tain dis­crim­i­na­tory pay prac­tices, so I will refrain from nam­ing them on a pub­lic site to avoid besmirch­ing a com­pany that was doing then what “every­body” did and which may have since cleaned up its act.

  51. @Max
     
    I’ll stand cor­rected on the cof­fee case, as I con­fess I never fol­lowed the details of it. How­ever, suing because some­one didn’t like a weather report or suing one­self from prison cer­tainly qual­ify as frivolous.

  52. OK dc — char­ac­ter­ize for me your posi­tion on Led­bet­ter than.

    My posi­tion on the Lily Led­bet­ter Act and the rea­son I sup­port it —

    Cor­po­ra­tions that break the law and vio­late civil rights and /​ or Con­sti­tu­tional rights should be held account­able for their law­break­ing. Period.

    Cor­po­ra­tions should not be able to hide their law­break­ing and their con­tempt for Con­sti­tu­tional rights merely by threat­en­ing to fire whistle­blow­ers, nor by a reliance on an unrea­son­able loop­hole in the statute of limitations.

    Goodyear was break­ing the law and was vio­lat­ing Con­sti­tu­tional rights. The Lily Led­bet­ter Act makes it more dif­fi­cult for cor­po­ra­tions to get away with this par­tic­u­lar type of law­break­ing, by fix­ing the loop­hole in the statute of lim­i­ta­tions through which Goodyear escaped pros­e­cu­tion for their crimes.

  53. Imag­ine for a moment that all ten of parksie’s cases were friv­o­lous (they weren’t but let’s pretend).

    Is the threat of TEN WHOLE FRIVOLOUS CASES suf­fi­cient to ignore the law­break­ing of cor­po­ra­tions that vio­late Con­sti­tu­tional rights?

    I thought con­ser­v­a­tives were pro­po­nents of law and order, and were defend­ers of the Con­sti­tu­tion and of indi­vid­ual rights?

  54. mc,

    The Weather case was NOT in the US, but Great Britain. 

    And the prison case DID NOT make it to trial. That’s frivolous.

  55. Since park­sie hasn’t the abil­ity to answer the ques­tion, here are per­ti­nent facts about the Liebeck case:

    Lieback was NOT dri­ving, but a pas­sen­ger and the car was STOPPED. The spill occurred when she attempted to take the lid off to add sugar and cream.
    Liebeck attempted to set­tle prior to trial for $20K, which barely cov­ered her med­ical and related costs. McD refused.
    Dur­ing dis­cov­ery it was shown that in the pre­vi­ous 10 years, McDon­alds had over 700 claims for burns from cof­fee, includ­ing numer­ous cases of 3rd degree burns as were Liebecks. This his­tory doc­u­mented McDon­alds’ knowl­edge about the extent and nature of this haz­ard.
    The McD Qual­ity Con­trol man­ager tes­ti­fied that McDon­alds cof­fee, at the tem­per­a­ture at which it was poured into sty­ro­foam cups, was not fit for con­sump­tion because it would burn the mouth and throat. They admit­ted that burns would occur, but tes­ti­fied that McDon­alds had no inten­tion of reduc­ing the “hold­ing tem­per­a­ture” of its coffee.

    The com­pany also admit­ted its cus­tomers were unaware that they could suf­fer third degree burns from the cof­fee and that a state­ment on the side of the cup was not a “warn­ing” but a “reminder” since the loca­tion of the writ­ing would not warn cus­tomers of the hazard. 

    The jury award was for $200K com­pen­satory dam­ages, reduced by 20% because they assigned that per­cent as the fault of Liebeck. They then also awarded the requested two days worth of cof­fee sales, $2.7M. The judge then reduced the puni­tive award to 3x the com­pen­satory award, $480K, thus a total of $640K. The two par­ties set­tled secretly for some num­ber before any appeals.

  56. Max,

    I saw an HBO doc­u­men­tary about that case that was fas­ci­nat­ing. I’d rec­om­mend it to any­one who cares to edu­cate them­selves about it and/​or about so called friv­o­lous lawsuits.  

  57. mil,

    Please feel free to cor­rect any legal mis­takes I have made. (I’m not a lawyer, but I played one in court. And won. And on appeal. And was upheld.)

    Bet it was called “Hot Cof­fee”. About a year ago. I saw that in my research, but have not seen the movie.

  58. I ot a strong feel­ing that park­sie, and other like him, would not be so loud about civil suits if it was THEIR spouse or parent.

    If, say, a doc­tor left a sponge inside their rel­a­tive, there was a seri­ous, life-​​threatening infec­tion that almost, or maybe even killed the per­son. They had to pay a large bill because of it and when they tried to get their money back, the doc­tor and hos­pi­tal laughed at them. Then, should they have gone to court to recover, dur­ing dis­cov­ery, found that that doc­tor and hos­pi­tal had done the same thing half a dozen times, with­out chang­ing prac­tices, even things as a check­list of all items and num­bers used dur­ing the pro­ce­dure! And had set­tled with no pub­lic­ity so the pub­lic wouldn’t know. Hap­pens all the time!

    Know­ing that the only way to get the atten­tion of the doc­tor and hos­pi­tal would be a puni­tive dam­age award that really hit ‘em in their pock­et­books, so to force a change that would save the next fam­ily from the pain and suf­fer­ing they went through. Because NO amount of money will bring back that rel­a­tive, or actu­ally com­pen­sate for the real trial they had to go through.

  59. mclever — I con­grat­u­late your friend for hav­ing the gump­tion to do the right thing and walk away from a job where she was unsat­is­fied with her salary.  And the com­pany did suf­fer — they had to replace two (appar­ently com­pe­tent) employ­ees with the cost and dis­rup­tion that accom­pany new hires.

    That’s the way it should work — not run off to a shys­ter lawyer and hope to win a wind­fall from a clue­less jury.

  60. park­sie,
    a) the com­pany prob­a­bly got new peo­ple for less money than the old, if they got peo­ple out of col­lege.
    b) the money it may have cost them was more than made up for by the money they saved over the years (and likely decades) that they prac­ticed their dis­crim­i­na­tory prac­tices. What do you think “human resource depart­ments” are for, other than mak­ing sure they get the best employ­ees for the cheap­est price?

    I notice you still have shown no instances that back up your claim.   It’s quite inter­est­ing that, when employ­ees sue to over­turn an injus­tice, they’re scum — but, when they quit and take a job else­where, they’re some­how so valu­able that their very absence “hurts the company”.

  61. park­sie,

    You’ve hit a nerve. As it hap­pens, I got called for jury duty last week.

    I went on Mon­day morn­ing. We filled out ques­tion­naires. I got picked.

    The case went on for four days, all week except Tues­day the judge did other things. It was a slip-​​and-​​fall case. After delib­er­a­tion, we eight jury mem­bers found the store not neg­li­gent. The plain­tiff got nothing.

    The sys­tem worked as it should.

    It’s actu­ally the sys­tem enshrined in our Bill of Rights as the Sev­enth Amend­ment.

    Why do you hate the Bill of Rights so? It’s pos­i­tively un-​​American.

  62. park­sie, I pro­vided my rea­sons for sup­port­ing the Lily Led­bet­ter Act. Have you a response?

    It seems to me that you oppose the Act because you think it’s okay for cor­po­ra­tions to ignore the law, ignore the Con­sti­tu­tion, and harm any­one they want to harm, pro­vided you think you’re get­ting a frac­tion of a penny dis­count on your pur­chases. Correct?

  63. park­sie,

    That’s the way it should work — not run off to a shys­ter lawyer and hope to win a windfall

    Actu­ally, if money was with­held from them, they are enti­tled by tort law to be made whole. Part of being made whole is receiv­ing what they should have got­ten in the first place. Puni­tive dam­ages are some­thing else entirely (and not part of what I’d typ­i­cally con­sider), but the miss­ing wages are hardly a “windfall”.

  64. Monotreme,

    As it hap­pens, I got called for jury duty last week.

    I went through it a year ago. I was the fore­man. Two weeks of a trial on real estate fraud. Plain­tiffs didn’t do due dili­gence. They got nothing.

  65. Max,

    Typ­i­cally I don’t see many mis­takes by you that require cor­rec­tion.  You do a pretty good job play­ing a lawyer :)  And you’re right, the doc­u­men­tary I was refer­ring to was Hot Coffee.   

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