
Lilly Ledbetter with President Barack Obama at the ceremonial signing of the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act
Pundits and politicians who oppose the President this year like to mock President Obama’s record. In fact, common wisdom has it that Republicans wanted the Presidential election to be a referendum on President Obama rather than a choice between him and his Republican opponent. Putting aside some of the intentional misrepresentation of that record, what can we say about what the President has been doing? It would be worthwhile to discuss the things President Obama has done, in a series of articles leading up to the election.
Let’s start at the beginning. The very first bill that President Obama signed into law, on January 29, 2009, was the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act. The bill was named after a woman who retired from Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company in 1998, who then sued her former employer for having paid her less, throughout her career, than her male counterparts. Unfortunately, the statute of limitations had expired on her claim; according to what was then the current law, a claimant had to allege discrimination within 180 days of its occurrence. Ms. Ledbetter had been hired many years previously, and the discrimination had been ongoing for many bad years — since 1979 — without legal action.
Somehow, that made it okay. The Supreme Court said so.
The case as brought to the Supreme Court didn’t deal with constitutional issues, but with the interpretation of federal law. Ledbetter alleged that her situation was one in which “disparate pay is received during the statutory limitations period, but is the result of intentionally discriminatory pay decisions that occurred outside the limitations period.” The majority decision said Ledbetter “could have, and should have, sued” at the time the initial discriminatory pay decisions were made.
The problem with this is that most employers discourage employees from discussing their pay with other employees. In fact, many employers — Goodyear included — will actually fire employees who discuss their pay with other employees. It is therefore extremely difficult for an employee to discover (let alone prove) that he or she has been the victim of pay discrimination. In this case, it would have been impossible for Ledbetter to uncover the sexual discrimination in Goodyear’s pay scales without losing her job, until after she no longer held her job.
Ms. Ledbetter filed suit under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Equal Pay Act of 1963. The original case was decided in her favor, but Goodyear appealed. The Eleventh Circuit Court reversed that ruling, and Ms. Ledbetter brought the case to the Supreme Court. She lost.
The decision by the court seemed to make a mockery of these civil rights laws, by admitting they have no teeth if the corporation which violates them can effectively hide the violation for a length of time beyond a 180-day statute of limitations. The idea behind a statute of limitations is that after a certain length of time (which varies by the crime), a violation of the law is either very hard to prove, or is no longer relevant, or was something (as in cases like this) where the aggrieved party had been consenting to the arrangement and perhaps brought suit for reasons unrelated to the unfairness that the law was intended to prevent.
Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg wrote a scathing dissent to the majority opinion, in which she was joined by Justices John Stevens, David Souter, and Stephen Breyer. She argued that pay discrimination often occurs in small increments over long stretches of time, and is not obvious until long after the statute of limitations has expired. Further, she noted (as I did above) that corporations make it very difficult for pay discrimination to be discovered, by exacting penalties when employees discuss or reveal their pay.
The majority opinion, denying any relief for Ledbetter, was written by Justice Samuel Alito. He was joined by Justices Antonin Scalia, Anthony Kennedy, Clarence Thomas, and Chief Justice John Roberts. The decision did not prevent suits under other laws, like the Equal Pay Act, which has a three-year deadline for most sex discrimination claims, or 42 U.S.C. 1981 (“Equal Rights Under the Law”), which has a four-year deadline for suing over race discrimination.
In 2007, the House of Representatives passed a bill to correct this problem. The proposed law would count each paycheck as a new instance of discrimination, and would reset the clock for the 180-day statute of limitations each time an employee is payed. Thus, a claimant would only have to file a lawsuit within 180 days of the last paycheck. The bill died in the Senate, because it failed to pass a cloture vote forced by Senate Republicans. During the 2008 presidential campaign, John McCain publicly opposed the bill, and Barack Obama publicly supported it. This was one of the many issues discussed during the campaign, and it was brought up during the presidential debates.
A new version of the bill was proposed in the 111th Congress. It passed the Senate’s cloture motion. It was signed by President Obama nine days after his inauguration.
This step to combat gender discrimination in the workplace may not win President Obama many votes in his 2012 reëlection campaign, mostly because a) it was signed almost four years ago (American voters have short memories), and b) it is a relatively obscure bit of civil rights law. It is, however, an indication of where the heart of this President lies — and where the intent of the Republican Party rests in their opposition to it. (See: war on women.)
Any list of the accomplishments of President Obama must include mention of his support for, and signing of, the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act of 2009. It is now legal to bring suit for pay discrimination within 180 days of any discriminatory paycheck — not just the first such paycheck — because of President Obama. It is one way he has led better, and but one example of why he deserves to have a good year.
Related articles
- Fair pay advocate Lilly Ledbetter still has plenty to fight for (kansascity.com)
- John Foster Way: Unfair pay violates women’s civil rights (norwichbulletin.com)
- Ledbetter: A lot of work to be done for pay equality (wvgazette.com)
- Lilly Ledbetter to headline Economic Summit for Women (bizjournals.com)
- Lilly Ledbetter: Paul Ryan scares me to death (rawstory.com)
- Ok, swing voters, here are your porn star endorsements for November’s presidential race [Interesting] (fark.com)
- Woman’s Right To Vote (propresobama.org)

I’m home from my annual hiking trip in northern Montana. We drove through a number of small and rugged prairie ranching towns… Havre, Chinook, Glasgow, Forth Belknap… and I was stunned that we didn’t see ONE Romney sign or bumper sticker. Not one. Nor did we see more than a handful of Rehberg lawn signs.
There were a few Obama bumper stickers and window posters, and dozens of Jon Tester signs on telephone poles, barbed wire fences and corral rails.
Considering this was a rural area and the cities (Great Falls, Helena, Missoula and Billings) are quite blue, I think it’s probably safe to say that Tester holds his Senate seat and Obama even has a pretty good chance of taking Montana.
Sorry… the post above should probably have gone in the “Senate roundup” thread.
I’m still a bit groggy from all that sunshine, fresh air, strenuous exercise and gorgeous scenery
filistro, It’s okay to have your comment here, too. It is relevant to the presidential election, and my discussion of the Lilly Ledbetter Act certainly is as well.
If I could put on a rightie hat for a moment, perhaps you saw no Romney stickers or lawn signs because Republicans are confidant they’re going to take Montana, and so aren’t bothering to spend money there. (I like your view of it better.)
Yes. Well it’s a truism that dim lights, thick smoke and loud, loud music, mixed with equal parts of cheap bourbon whiskey and pearl snap shirts, are much better for one’s awareness and well-being.
Thanks DC. This appears to be a very good concise summary of the LL Law.I frankly didn’t know what the law was about before reading this article. I now am more convinced that the law is a big nothingburger and Obama probably only passed it so he could play identity politics with it. Whatta shock.
@Max… dim lights, thick smoke and loud, loud music, mixed with equal parts of cheap bourbon whiskey and pearl snap shirts
Hey Max… you’ve been to one of my family reunions!
DC… Lily Ledbetter herself is one of the best political spokespeople I’ve ever seen. She seems so plain-spoken, down to earth and candid. It’s kind of startling to listen to her, like an actual human person talking to all the stuffed shirts and special interests in a known earthling language. I wish the link below your article with her saying those words… “Paul Ryan scares me to death”… could be made into a campaign commercial and played everywhere.
And yes… I think Dems will do very well in Montana and some other western states this year. The salt-of-the-earth country folk have long been Republican, but they are getting the feeling nowadays that Republicanism is all about abortion, extremism, Grover Norquist and big breaks for the wealthy. That’s not what they care about. There is a lot of bitterness against the GOP establishment. It may not motivate them to vote Democrat, at least not yet, after all those years of party loyalty, but it will depress Republican turnout. Because outside Utah there is NO enthusiasm for Romney out here. I mean, zero. NONE.
The boot-scootin’ guys and gals at the Cowboy Bar in Malta, Montana feel a whole lot more kinship with Lily Ledbetter than they do with Willard RMoney.
Yes, rgbact, conservatives as a rule do not think it is important — or even desirable — to prevent discrimination, either on the basis of sex or race, age or disability, sexual orientation or ethnicity. Discriminatory practices are pretty much okay with many conservatives (in fact, such practices are often seen as preferable). And yes, attempts to combat discriminatory practices are often denigrated, by conservatives, as being mere “politics,” as if protecting human rights was nothing more than a parlor game.
Re: rgbact’s ad nauseam Obama negativity … at my first political forum where the discussion was soooo heated sometimes “we” had (3) day lock out periods where no one was allowed to post at the current affairs forum. Anyway, one time a moderator asked that each “side” say something nice about the other side.
I posted Abraham Lincoln was the greatest American president and I also liked Teddy and Ike. As sayin’ something nice about current day cons would have been lying lol. IIRC the time period was 2005⁄2006 when Bush’s Iraq War was going totally south and cons were falling over themselves trying to defend Bush!
Fun times …
I digress.
In the final analysis rgbact is just following mittens’ lead as he ran 95% negative ads against train wrecks Newt/Santo/Perry etc. in the primaries and is now runnin’ 99% negative ads against Obama. ie Republicans are awash in/consumed with negativity.
>
Re: Montana, Dems are very good at retail politics, whereas Reps are better at scorched earth politics. And Montana feels like a retail politics kinda state to me. Same w/ND which is why Heidi Heitkamp is doing well.
Remember MT is the state that took Citizens United to the SC …
I can only speak of Texas and this was 15 years ago. It was/is against the law for salaried employees to discuss their wages. It is okay for hourly employees to discuss their wages. This is based on hourly employees having the right to organize and create a union to protect the rights of those hourly employees. Salaried employees have no such rights or the options to bring in union representation.
On 2 occasions with the same company I hired a lawyer to find out my rights. The first time I had none, but opted to play my hand out as if I did and won the argument and my raise. The second one, I was forced into a Equal Rights filing to protect my job. In the end, the company said I was a complete loser and only filed to prevent losing my job based on laziness and incompetence. This judgement after I received a pay raise, promotion and performance bonus. I was such a slacker.
Ledbetter act is a joke — just another reason to vote against Obama. Invitation for junk laswsuits, nothing more than that.
Oh yes, pay discrimination on the basis of sex is a true joke, parksie. It never happens. Something like “legitimate rape”. [/sarcasm]
parksie,
3 questions:
Answers:
1) Yes
3) Yes
Let the record show that parksie SUPPORTS screwing over employees without their knowledge, even though the method of the screwing is illegal. It follows that he then believes one can ignore laws with which one disagrees, violate those laws, and get off scot-free.
He should hope that someone never decides to ignore the law against battery or homicide as pertains to HIM.
For such is the natural extrapolation of his position.
No, Max, that is not an accurate characterization of my position.
I of course do not support “screwing over of employees without their knowledge” (although that certainly begs the question of how bad can that screwing really be if the employee is unaware of it).
However I also do not support needless additional red tape and layers of additional legal protection that will be required for companies to adhere to laws that are unnecessary in today’s world.
The bottom line is if you are unhappy with your pay, either renegotiate with your employer or walk. If you are valuable, they will keep you. If not, they won’t. And if a company discriminates against qualified employees strictly because of their a) race b) gender c) whatever then eventually they will suffer because they are losing access to a pool of talent that other companies can access.
Now everyone will pay a little more for goods and services because of an additional layer of red tape and frivolous lawsuits.
It’s the basic difference in philosophy between those that support Obama and those that do not. Either rely on your own initiative and do something about your unhappiness (non-Obama supporters) or sit on your ass and wait for someone else to do it for you, at everybody else’s expense (Obama supporters).
parksie,
Show us a few examples of companies that discriminated against qualified employees on the basis of race or gender and which then suffered.
Your philosophy is called “Social Darwinism”. Look it up.
I think parksie’s point is that it’s okay to discriminate based on race, gender, or anything else, provided the people discriminated against either a) are kept in the dark about it, or b) are intimidated into silence, or c) are sufficiently happy (or insufficiently unhappy) with the discrimination.
Presumably, we shouldn’t have police or fire departments or a military, or public schools, or federal meat inspections, or air traffic controllers, or water and sewage, or garbage collection, or national highways, or even insurance companies — because people should get off their asses and take care of themselves.
What you forget, partksie, is that action taken as a nation is people taking care of themselves. This is how we do it in a democracy. We the People decide what We are going to do. If you want to take care of yourself and not have to worry about anyone else, go live in the middle of the Gobi desert. Either that or tell the National Weather Service to leave your state out of its storm warnings.
Max,
I think you’re mischaracterizing his position. He supports legalizing that method of screwing.
Chain — You mean like the big Walmart lawsuit that got thrown out of court? Or the Ledbetter case itself that also got thrown out of court?
I’m having a hard time finding a case where discrimination has been proven. It just doesn’t happen all that often.
But go ahead and show me a few cases where companies have been proved to discriminate and we’ll take a look at how the companies performed before and after.
In most of these frivolous
extortion caseslawsuits, the company pays a small settlement to avoid the hassle of a trial. Nobody proves anything in these cases.dc — How you can go from “Doesn’t support the Lily Ledbetter act” to abolishing all civil service, insurance companies, public schools, and air traffic controllers is beyond me, but if you feel that accurately reflects my position it truly speaks volumes about the level of discourse on this site and who is responsible for it.
parksie,
I haven’t looked into the case law much, but I have seen absolutely clear proof of it happening, because I was in a position to see it. And, having been in that position, I also understand how and why it persists.
One reason why we don’t have many such lawsuits: in many, many instances it is a violation of either criminal or civil law to obtain the evidence necessary to obtain a judgment in the plaintiff’s favor. Imagine how few convictions the DA would have if he wasn’t able to collect evidence that a crime had been committed in the first place.
parksie,
You are the one who made the claim. You support it with examples. Can’t find any? Gosh, that would make a normal person wonder if maybe that assertion wasn’t true.
Let’s turn it around. Are there any companies in the recent past that, once successful, have fallen on hard times, and see why. I can give you a few examples: BP, Digital Equipment Corp (DEC), GMC, FMC — and the list goes on and on. Did any of these companies suffer because they discriminated? (We observe that any company that has been in existence for more than 30 years is certain to have practiced discrimination based on gender — it was routine and not even remarkable until the late seventies.)
I would say that, to what extent these companies have suffered, it has not been due to any discrimination issues.
Parksie,
You may want to educate yourself regarding the reason why Lilly Ledbetter’s case was “thrown out” before you go spouting off about it.
Can’t find any examples? Gosh, that would make a normal person think that there really isn’t a whole lot of discrimination, wouldn’t it?
Well then why don’t you “educate” me, mostlyilurk?
Simple. Let me quote you on it (#15).
Do you agree with your statement or do you not?
It didn’t get “thrown out of court.” That phrase implies that the courts found the case to have no merit and refused to hear it. In point of fact, the original trial court, the appeals court, and SCOTUS all thought the issues had sufficient merit to be heard.
Nor was the final decision based on a question of whether there had been discrimination, but simply on the question of whether the statute of limitations had expired. Goodyear had intentionally hidden the discrimination they had been doing, by making it impossible to obtain evidence of that discrimination in a timely manner while also remaining employed.
What the Lily Ledbetter Act does is make it easier to obtain relevant evidence — which makes it easier to see whether or not discrimination is happening. If it isn’t happening, then any “frivolous” lawsuit can be easily shown to be such, and would, in fact, be “thrown out of court.”
You apparently don’t trust the courts much. Is obtaining justice one more thing people should get off their asses and do for themselves?
dc — It’s a basic philosophical difference — in general, it’s better to rely on yourself than rely on others. But of course it does not mean that we abolish all civil services, public schools, insurance companies, and air traffic controllers.
Do you agree that it is possible that there are shades of grey between black and white?
Yes. Which is why your black-and-white statement I quoted from #15 (which includes, by the way, complete misunderstanding of opposing opinion) was so disappointing and needed to be challenged.
By the way, the Lily Ledbetter Act doesn’t let anyone “sit on your ass and wait for someone else to do it for you, at everybody else’s expense,” so I assumed you weren’t talking about that Act at all. You made what you said was a statement of “the basic difference in philosophy between those that support Obama and those that do not.”
So I ask again — do you agree with the statement I previously quoted from #15, or do you not? If you feel that there are “shades of grey” then we can have a conversation about which areas should be left completely up to the individual, and which require action as a nation. We can even talk about the support structures that make this “individual action” possible.
But as long as you simply repeat empty talking points, we can’t have a rational conversation about it.
dc — Of course I agree with my statement in #15. And of course I agree that there are shades of grey.
My take on the Ledbetter act is that it makes it easier to file frivolous lawsuits, and that there are much better ways to address the issue if you feel you are not being paid appropriately. Call it “light grey”.
Your take is that the Ledbetter act is necessary to ensure that women and minorities are paid appropriately, and it is appropriate for society as a whole to pay more for goods and services to ensure that this is so. Call it “dark grey”
Is that an accurate representation of our positions on Ledbetter?
I don’t know if it’s an accurate description of your position. You did not accurately describe mine.
Out of the following services — police, fire, public schools, military, weather service, air traffic control, national weather service — which ones of those is it appropriate to “rely on your own initiative and do something about your unhappiness,” and in which ones is it okay to “sit on your ass and wait for someone else to do it for you, at everybody else’s expense”?
parksie,
You didn’t read carefully enough. Each and every one of those companies unquestionably practiced pay discrimination based on sex, and each and every one of them later fell on hard times — but in every case (and I’m intimately familiar with a few of them) their hard times were not due to the discrimination, except, perhaps, in that they were not led by the most capable people*.
(*By the way, the top echelons of virtually all modern businesses are dominated by men, so there’s no way to claim that these companies that suffered were any different in that respect from successful ones.)
The LAW IS that there be no wage discrimination because of gender.
The question was: “ Was the treatment of Lily Ledbetter fine, in your eyes? “
Ledbetter was “treated” in a discriminatory manner AGAINST THE LAW.
The answer by parksie was: “ 1) Yes ”
Q.E.D.: parksie supported action contrary to the law. That was not a qualified “yes”. Only later, after being called out à la Akin, did parksie attempt to qualify his position.
” Well then why don’t you “educate” me, mostlyilurk? ”
Generally would mean: “I prefer to stay satisfied with my ignorance, than do a bit of research that would cause me to show myself incorrect.”
As with many people who have not taken the time to understand a bit about the law, parksie does not know, or understand, the legal meanings of “frivolous” or of “at issue”.
shortchain, I suspect parksie might have lost the thread of the argument you’re making. You might want to recap.
parksie,
Since mostlyilurk hasn’t been back to educate you, I’ll fill in. Ledbetter’s case was thrown out because of the Supreme Court’s interpretation of the statute of limitations, not because she hadn’t proven her prima facie case. The Lily Ledbetter Act clarifies the statute of limitations in such a manner as to override the Supreme Court’s interpretation, and does nothing more.
“Each and every one of those companies unquestionably practiced pay discrimination based on sex”
You know this how?
OK dc — characterize for me your position on Ledbetter than.
And no fair just saying “I support it”
As to #30:
“ it is appropriate for society as a whole to pay more for goods and services to ensure that this is so. ”
If employers adhere to the law, then there would be no need for any additional costs to be paid for by society.
If an employee brings a suit against an employer that has no basis IN FACT, that suit will certainly be thrown out, upon Motion, by the judge. Perhaps of the judge’s “own Motion”. A person so bringing such a suit could be liable for filing or carrying forward a “frivolous” action and would be subject to civil penalties as well as costs and fees of the defendant(s).
If an employee brings a suit against an employer that has even SOME basis in fact, then there are legal matters “at issue” rightfully to be determined by the Court. It is then the duty of the jury, or bench, to determine the actual facts of the case, and make a determination, based on a preponderance of evidence presented at trial, as to whether or not a crime or tort did occur, and in many jurisdictions, the extent of liability of BOTH parties. Then to assign APPROPRIATE relief, based on law.
Simply because you do not agree with the law as written, or understand squat about the LAW, does not meet the definition of “frivolous”, parksie. It only demonstrates the applicable point I made in the earlier comment
There are so many other factors that could affect the performance of a company above and beyond discriminatory pay practices that it is highly doubtful that chain or I will be able to prove our assertion. I think it would be silly to argue otherwise. Any company that is stupid enough to willfully discriminate with regards to salary is probably doing lots of other dumb things anyway.
But I base my assertion on logic. Chain does not offer any logic to support his position.
So Max, I guess in your opinion that no frivolous lawsuit has ever gone to trial ?
“ “Each and every one of those companies unquestionably practiced pay discrimination based on sex”
You know this how? ”
shortchain. Could it be that each and every one of those companies were losing parties in pay discrimination actions in court?
Per #41.
parksie, please give me YOUR definitions of “frivolous lawsuit” and “gone to trial” as pertains to your question.
Here’s 10 of ‘em for you.
http://urbantitan.com/10-frivolous-lawsuits/
Admittedly the last 4 or 5 did not go to trial (apparently) but the first 5 are certainly a bit silly, don’t you think?
parksie,
You need to do MUCH better than your “urbantitan” opinion piece. Because as soon as the Liebeck v McDonalds is called “frivolous” they proved their ignorance. Additionally, the $600K settlement they write about is false as that settlement was sealed and all we actually know is that it was something LESS than $600K.
But since you held out the Liebeck case, and you evidently believe it to be frivolous, why don’t we use that example and you give us your knowledge of the case and why you believe it “frivolous”.
parksie,
So, if I understand your position correctly, you want to ensure that there are no wrongly-decided civil cases, and the way to do that is to make it so hard to bring suit that people can’t bring suit anymore. If I’m mistaken, please clarify the logic path.
My position is accurately reflected here:
http://www.insidecounsel.com/2011/07/22/frivolous-lawsuits-clogging-us-courts-stalling-eco
I want to reduce frivolous lawsuits and the amount of resources expended defending against them. Therefore I support the Lawsuit Abuse Reduction Act of 2011 and think that Obama would have done better to throw his support behind this legislation than Lily Ledbetter.
A woman spilled coffee upon herself and wasted a tremendous amount of resources in securing a settlement for her greedy self.
That’s my knowledge of the case.
Please educate me if this differs from the truth.
I know these companies practiced pay discrimination based on sex from personal information (my mother discovered, to her shock, that she made almost exactly half what the men made who did exactly the same job — only not as well) as well as having worked at some of them, and breaking the rules to discuss pay (authority is another thing I don’t have a lot of respect for).
But this is hardly arguable — it was universal in the 60s, and routine in the 70s for women to get much lower pay for the same job. This is well documented.
Again, parksie — YOU made the assertion that companies that practice pay discrimination will suffer. Show that that is the case by example, by mathematical proof, or retract your assertion. Don’t ask me to prove that no company who ever practiced pay discrimination based on sex never suffered from it — ever hear that “you can’t prove a negative”?
Parksie,
I agree that the 10 lawsuits you cite at the link are indeed frivolous, but I don’t see how that remotely equates to a woman suing for being underpaid simply because she is a woman. Wage discrimination is against the law, and it’s not frivolous. Having valid lawsuits dismissed because of an unreasonable statute of limitations is also not frivolous, which is what the LL Act addresses.
Speaking from personal experience, I know a married couple who worked their first jobs for the same company before getting married. Both she and he graduated from the same top-10 school with similar degrees and GPAs, though she was two years ahead of him. However, when they got married, they discovered that he was being paid substantially more than she was, despite having two years less work experience. When she asked HR about the disparity, they said that she could be terminated for discussing pay with co-workers. She pointed out that the co-worker in question was her husband. They decided they couldn’t fire her for knowing her husband’s salary, but they said the disparity was because she didn’t go to a good enough college. When she reminded them that she and he went to the same school, they said it was because he had a math-related degree. When she pointed out that she also had a math degree, they said it was because he had a GPA over 3.75, which she also had. They next tried to suggest it was performance related, but she could point to three years of exemplary reviews, while her husband had only been working for one year so far. When they ran out of excuses for why the disparity existed, they said that they couldn’t make up the difference in pay with her next market adjustment raise, because the percentage increase would be too large and would violate their policy for the maximum allowable salary increase per year. (In fact, when she received a promotion shortly after this discussion, they had to reduce her salary below the “band” for her new position, because giving her the minimum salary for her new position also would have violated their policy on maximum salary increases. And it still left her making less than her husband, who was still her junior.)
However, she couldn’t bring suit against her employer charging discrimination because: 1) at the time(*), she only had direct knowledge of two employees’ salaries, which makes it difficult to establish a pattern even if one clearly exists. 2) the statute of limitations as then defined meant she would have had to bring suit eighteen months before she discovered the discrepancy, (and six months before her husband even started working there) which would have been impossible given that she would have been fired if she’d known then what any of her male co-workers were making. She knows this is true, because she and her husband talked to a lawyer about it, and that was the advice given.
So, that’s why a lot of discrimination cases don’t get filed, even if they aren’t “frivolous.” If the LL Act had been in effect, the woman in the story above would have been able to file her case and probably receive several thousand dollars in compensation from her and her husband’s employer. That’s not frivolous.
(*) I will note that the couple later was able to obtain salary information which confirmed that she was paid approximately 5% less than the next-lowest-paid male in her company with the same position and level of experience. When controlled for those receiving “exemplary” reviews, the disparity increased to over 10%. This was a large company with over 30,000 employees, so the disparity was particularly stunning, especially considering that other women were similarly underpaid. But again, the statute of limitations prevented any case from being considered.
parksie in #48 you admit to a woeful ignorance of the facts about the case. AND you did NOT demonstrate the action’s frivolous nature as a result. All you did was voice an opinion based on that ignorance of both facts and the law.
The case was NOT frivolous by ANY legal definition.
mc,
The 10 cases that parksie alleged ARE NOT all frivolous, and you do a disservice to the truth by so stating.
And the Weather case was NOT in the US, but Great Britain.
@mclever,
Ah, but did that company suffer as a result of their discrimination? That, after all, is one of the things that parksie is claiming.
I should add that the company in the above anecdote never suffered any ill effects for their discrimination, aside from losing two highly-qualified employees… They are a thriving, well-known, very profitable consulting firm. It is not presently known if they still maintain discriminatory pay practices, so I will refrain from naming them on a public site to avoid besmirching a company that was doing then what “everybody” did and which may have since cleaned up its act.
@Max
I’ll stand corrected on the coffee case, as I confess I never followed the details of it. However, suing because someone didn’t like a weather report or suing oneself from prison certainly qualify as frivolous.
My position on the Lily Ledbetter Act and the reason I support it —
Corporations that break the law and violate civil rights and / or Constitutional rights should be held accountable for their lawbreaking. Period.
Corporations should not be able to hide their lawbreaking and their contempt for Constitutional rights merely by threatening to fire whistleblowers, nor by a reliance on an unreasonable loophole in the statute of limitations.
Goodyear was breaking the law and was violating Constitutional rights. The Lily Ledbetter Act makes it more difficult for corporations to get away with this particular type of lawbreaking, by fixing the loophole in the statute of limitations through which Goodyear escaped prosecution for their crimes.
Imagine for a moment that all ten of parksie’s cases were frivolous (they weren’t but let’s pretend).
Is the threat of TEN WHOLE FRIVOLOUS CASES sufficient to ignore the lawbreaking of corporations that violate Constitutional rights?
I thought conservatives were proponents of law and order, and were defenders of the Constitution and of individual rights?
mc,
The Weather case was NOT in the US, but Great Britain.
And the prison case DID NOT make it to trial. That’s frivolous.
Since parksie hasn’t the ability to answer the question, here are pertinent facts about the Liebeck case:
Lieback was NOT driving, but a passenger and the car was STOPPED. The spill occurred when she attempted to take the lid off to add sugar and cream.
Liebeck attempted to settle prior to trial for $20K, which barely covered her medical and related costs. McD refused.
During discovery it was shown that in the previous 10 years, McDonalds had over 700 claims for burns from coffee, including numerous cases of 3rd degree burns as were Liebecks. This history documented McDonalds’ knowledge about the extent and nature of this hazard.
The McD Quality Control manager testified that McDonalds coffee, at the temperature at which it was poured into styrofoam cups, was not fit for consumption because it would burn the mouth and throat. They admitted that burns would occur, but testified that McDonalds had no intention of reducing the “holding temperature” of its coffee.
The company also admitted its customers were unaware that they could suffer third degree burns from the coffee and that a statement on the side of the cup was not a “warning” but a “reminder” since the location of the writing would not warn customers of the hazard.
The jury award was for $200K compensatory damages, reduced by 20% because they assigned that percent as the fault of Liebeck. They then also awarded the requested two days worth of coffee sales, $2.7M. The judge then reduced the punitive award to 3x the compensatory award, $480K, thus a total of $640K. The two parties settled secretly for some number before any appeals.
Max,
I saw an HBO documentary about that case that was fascinating. I’d recommend it to anyone who cares to educate themselves about it and/or about so called frivolous lawsuits.
mil,
Please feel free to correct any legal mistakes I have made. (I’m not a lawyer, but I played one in court. And won. And on appeal. And was upheld.)
Bet it was called “Hot Coffee”. About a year ago. I saw that in my research, but have not seen the movie.
I ot a strong feeling that parksie, and other like him, would not be so loud about civil suits if it was THEIR spouse or parent.
If, say, a doctor left a sponge inside their relative, there was a serious, life-threatening infection that almost, or maybe even killed the person. They had to pay a large bill because of it and when they tried to get their money back, the doctor and hospital laughed at them. Then, should they have gone to court to recover, during discovery, found that that doctor and hospital had done the same thing half a dozen times, without changing practices, even things as a checklist of all items and numbers used during the procedure! And had settled with no publicity so the public wouldn’t know. Happens all the time!
Knowing that the only way to get the attention of the doctor and hospital would be a punitive damage award that really hit ‘em in their pocketbooks, so to force a change that would save the next family from the pain and suffering they went through. Because NO amount of money will bring back that relative, or actually compensate for the real trial they had to go through.
mclever — I congratulate your friend for having the gumption to do the right thing and walk away from a job where she was unsatisfied with her salary. And the company did suffer — they had to replace two (apparently competent) employees with the cost and disruption that accompany new hires.
That’s the way it should work — not run off to a shyster lawyer and hope to win a windfall from a clueless jury.
parksie,
a) the company probably got new people for less money than the old, if they got people out of college.
b) the money it may have cost them was more than made up for by the money they saved over the years (and likely decades) that they practiced their discriminatory practices. What do you think “human resource departments” are for, other than making sure they get the best employees for the cheapest price?
I notice you still have shown no instances that back up your claim. It’s quite interesting that, when employees sue to overturn an injustice, they’re scum — but, when they quit and take a job elsewhere, they’re somehow so valuable that their very absence “hurts the company”.
parksie,
You’ve hit a nerve. As it happens, I got called for jury duty last week.
I went on Monday morning. We filled out questionnaires. I got picked.
The case went on for four days, all week except Tuesday the judge did other things. It was a slip-and-fall case. After deliberation, we eight jury members found the store not negligent. The plaintiff got nothing.
The system worked as it should.
It’s actually the system enshrined in our Bill of Rights as the Seventh Amendment.
Why do you hate the Bill of Rights so? It’s positively un-American.
parksie, I provided my reasons for supporting the Lily Ledbetter Act. Have you a response?
It seems to me that you oppose the Act because you think it’s okay for corporations to ignore the law, ignore the Constitution, and harm anyone they want to harm, provided you think you’re getting a fraction of a penny discount on your purchases. Correct?
parksie,
Actually, if money was withheld from them, they are entitled by tort law to be made whole. Part of being made whole is receiving what they should have gotten in the first place. Punitive damages are something else entirely (and not part of what I’d typically consider), but the missing wages are hardly a “windfall”.
Monotreme,
I went through it a year ago. I was the foreman. Two weeks of a trial on real estate fraud. Plaintiffs didn’t do due diligence. They got nothing.
Max,
Typically I don’t see many mistakes by you that require correction. You do a pretty good job playing a lawyer
And you’re right, the documentary I was referring to was Hot Coffee.
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