Voter ID, Political Ego
As you may recall, my day job involves computer security. A significant element in security is threat modeling, where one lays out the overall structure of the system, identifies areas of threats (defined as theoretical means of attack), finds corresponding vulnerabilities (defined as practical implementations of threats), and rates them based on their overall risk to the system.
In the case of voting, I’ve worked out threat models based on the architecture of voting systems common to the United States. I did this several years ago, in fact, because the topic has been discussed frequently at various security conferences. Unsurprisingly, the focus at computer security conferences has been on electronic voting machines, but I was prompted to look outside the obvious. After all, to the man with a hammer, the world is made of nails; to the computer security conference attendee, the security vulnerabilities of interest are in computers. I wanted to go further, so I looked at the entire system.
Where are some of the threats? What vulnerabilities arise from them? How bad are they? And what can and should be done about them?
The threats are many, but I will focus only on the public-facing (“retail”) threats today, as they are the ones receiving the most attention of late. The retail attack surface has two basic forms. One is at the polling place, while the other is through the mail (i.e., via absentee ballot).
At the polling place, a person can cast a ballot for which that person is not authorized (being ineligible to vote, or casting a vote on behalf of someone else), which allows a person to impact a single vote per attack. A repeat attack is difficult, because the person must interact with a polling official for each attack. Alternatively, a person can tamper with the vote tallying mechanism (hacking into an electronic voting machine would be one such example), which allows a person to impact potentially a few hundred votes per attack. These are the only two realistic mechanisms for retail attacks at the polling place.
Through the mail, a person also can cast a ballot for which that person is not authorized, in the same way as at the polling place. Again, this gains a single vote per attack. Unlike at the polling place, however, a repeat attack is especially easy to perform, since it can be done in the privacy of one’s home. The greatest hurdle is acquiring the ballots, but one rarely needs to interact with a polling official to do so.
How common is the polling-place form of attack? At first glance, one might conclude that it would be impossible to determine the frequency of one casting a ballot on behalf of someone else. However, let’s look at how logging reduces the likelihood of the attack remaining undetected.
When a voter arrives at the polling place to tender a vote, the polling official asks for the voter’s name, finds the name in the voter book, validates both that an absentee ballot was not sent to that voter and that the voter has not yet signed the book, has the voter sign the book, and then issues the ballot. This means that, in order to successfully obtain a ballot, the voter must know the name of someone who has not yet voted (an easy task, since the book is typically open and readily visible to the potential voter). But, moreover, the name chosen by the attacker must not match someone who will be voting later in the day. Otherwise, the fraud is detected and reported. This means that, in order to avoid detection, the fraud must occur near the closing time of the polls, significantly reducing the window of opportunity for the attack. In other words, if a single person is using this attack, and the attack is remaining undetected, he isn’t able to make more than a couple of fraudulent votes, at best.
Could this be happening on a wide scale with hundreds, or even thousands, of people in a coördinated effort without us knowing? Perhaps, but it’s really unlikely. Why? Because the odds of being caught by the real voter showing up later is far greater than zero. The more hotly contested an election is, the higher the turnout, and the greater the likelihood of detection. Yet those are the elections where a small number of votes will impact the outcome…the very elections about which we are most concerned!
But we know that this type of attack was common for a number of years. How did we know this? Because voters would show up, and discover that someone had forged their names in those voter roll books! This was a frequent occurrence all over the nation in the early part of the 20th century, and it was well documented. It seems to have had a sharp decline beginning around the 1970s. What coincided with this decline? Tougher penalties (five years in prison and $10,000 for each offense), and absentee ballots.
With absentee ballots, the attack is far easier and more effective. The time constraints no longer apply; the attacker is able to take his time in acquiring the ballots, filling them out, and submitting them. And, with no direct contact with polling officials, the likelihood of getting caught diminishes greatly. To the extent that retail voting fraud occurs today, threat modeling points to absentee ballots as the most likely avenue.
One thing I always stress in mitigating security vulnerabilities is that the cost of the mitigation must be lower than the cost of the vulnerability. For example, it’s not worth it to implement a million dollar security system to protect a thousand dollar item. Similarly, a protection against vote fraud must disenfranchise fewer voters than the number of fraudulent votes that would otherwise have been cast absent the protection. So, ideally, new laws designed to prevent retail voter fraud should focus their attention first and foremost on absentee ballots, and do so in a way to minimize disenfranchisement.
Oddly, though, the voter ID laws that have been passed in swing states are focusing their attention on in-person voting fraud, not absentee ballots. Why is this? The political ego of Pennsylvania House Republican Leader Mike Turzai clues us in on the answer:
Voter ID, which is gonna allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania, done.
Why would voter ID “allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania”? Because those without approved photographic identification are disproportionately minorities, the poor, and college students, all groups that are dominated by Democratic voters. The Pennsylvania Department of Transportation estimates that nine percent of registered voters lack state-issued photographic identification as required by their new voter identification law. Judge Robert Simpson, who upheld the law last week, believes that the number is closer to one percent (though provides no justification for his belief). A recent Carnegie-Knight report found a total of less than one allegation (not conviction) per year — nationwide — of in-person voter fraud that would be addressed by voter identification. That’s 1.5×10–6 percent of the votes cast in 2008. In other words, even if we assume Simpson’s lower estimate is more accurate, we are still disenfranchising a million times as many voters as we are preventing fraudulent votes of this type. Let’s even go so far as to assume that 99 percent of those without a photographic identification are able to obtain one before the election (another generous assumption). Even then, we are still disenfranchising ten thousand times as many people as the number of fraudulent votes prevented by the law. Clearly, the cost far outweighs the benefit.
Incidentally, Republicans who favor such laws should consider the reasons the voter fraud they are trying to prevent would benefit only Democrats, as that has been the common accusation from the right. Is there something inherent to in-person voting on behalf of another of which only Democrats can take advantage? If not, one would certainly expect any such fraud to apply equally to both parties…quite a different proposition from the disenfranchisement resulting from voter identification laws.
I’m very much in favor of improving the security of our voting system. I do believe that there are significant vulnerabilities in the current structure — at every level, from the precinct to the departments of state. In fact, it is for that very reason that I oppose these voter identification laws. They cynically use a very real issue for the political gain of one party.
And that is the antithesis of the core of my beliefs as a security professional.
Related articles
- GOP Voter ID Backers Admit Voter ID Backs GOP (tribuneofthepeople.com)
- Voter impersonation less likely than a lightning strike… (theartofaccess.com)
- In Wake of Voter ID Ruling, Pennsylvania Dumps Online Initiatives to Boost Voting (balloon-juice.com)
- Disabled and elderly voters face new hurdles at polls (publicintegrity.org)
- Absentee Ballots Create A Market For Votes — OpEd (eurasiareview.com)
- MA Republican Investigated for Massive Absentee Ballot Fraud Scheme to Defeat Fellow Republican (bradblog.com)

This entry was posted by Michael Weiss on August 21, 2012 at 3:00 am, and is filed under Uncategorized. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0.You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.
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#2 written by Max 9 months ago
One could easily argue that the current, permissible, practice of gerrymandering is inherently more of a voter fraud than improper voting itself. It effectively negates lage numbers of voters who would vote against the party the gerrymander supports.
The only practical solution would be the requirement of population-centric, geographical areas that, while impossible to be circles or squares, could well be tessellation-like divisions, necessarily of varying sizes, covering the state.
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Monotreme,
Yes, we need to accept error in our everyday lives. But, once again, we find ourselves in an area that shows a difference between the two parties. While not universal, it’s far more common for conservatives to view the world as binary (as one example here, GROG has previously stated his preference for a binary world), while liberals are more inclined to accept and embrace the shades of gray. It’s not hard to draw the inference, then, that conservatives would be less likely to accept error in our everyday lives.The problem with inaccurate vote counts is the same as the problem with many accidental shooting deaths. We live in a world that has error, but the consequences of those errors can be catastrophic. Police officers make split-second decisions about whether to discharge their weapons. Some guess wrong in not discharging, and the consequence is their own lives and/or the lives of innocent bystanders. Others guess wrong in discharging, and the consequence is the life of the innocent person they mistook as a threat. Similarly, it’s hard to believe that the years under W were similar to the hypothetical years under Gore. There would be no Obamacare were it not for Al Franken being declared the winner in an election where the final margin was smaller than the margin of error of the vote.
In the computer security world, don’t professionals accept a low level of hacking into low criticality systems, and concentrate on securing systems with higher criticality?
Not all of them do. Typically, those that don’t are eventually relegated to tactical roles, though. I am fond of reminding security absolutists that the only truly secure computer is one that is unplugged, and encased in concrete in a remote, undisclosed location.
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The chief reason we know these efforts are out-and-out voter suppression is that they are being aided and spearheaded at the very top by Hans von Spakovsky, who has been a tireless pioneer in voter suppression for more than 20 years.
Just google this guy and check out his career… then look at his links to the current efforts in various states.
Sleazy, scummy, scandalous.
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I’m voting absentee for the second time. The 1st time was in the navy. And yes, fraud is much easier by absentee ballot. So the irony is all these new Republican voter disenfranchise laws are probably gonna lead to more folks voting absentee. In Ohio all you need is the last (4) digits of your SS#.
If anything, the Rep suppress the vote laws are only motivating Dems more to GOTV! Unforeseen consequences lol.
Ohio~Ohio~Ohio
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#6 written by channelclemente 9 months ago
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The question that comes to my mind, is voter suppresson a legitimate ‘political’ tactic?
I think everyone would agree that it is not a legitimate tactic, which is why Republicans don’t publicly admit they’re doing it. I can only assume they sleep at night either by denying it even to themselves, or by convincing themselves that any means, no matter how odious, are allowed in the support of political goals.
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#8 written by channelclemente 9 months ago
Repubicans and Democrats both practice it, IMO.
Claire McCaskill buying advertising in Missouri more or less for Akin to poison the
candidate’s attractiveness is a type of voter suppression. It’ll keep rational Republicans (assuming
they exist) home, she hopes. In her, and
my, I might add, opinion it is a tactic for the greater good. The issue in Ohio and other states that is really so
onerous is that the Republicans have
co-opted the power of the state for their political ends, not because the vote
is being suppressed. People fight
revolutions, civil and otherwise, over such acts if I recall. My point is not to argue the fact, but to
frame the question in such a way it can be effectively dealt with. Crying foul because of voter suppression just
confuses the issue and just leads to childish name calling. -
An interesting thought — that negative ads are a form of voter suppression.
Usually, “voter suppression” is seen as preventing someone from voting through underhanded or forcible means. Advertizing, even negative advertizing, is not usually seen as “vote suppression” unless it does things like lie about when the polls are open. It is particularly not seen as voter suppression when it is basically telling the truth about one’s opponent.
So no, I can’t see Ms McCaskill’s ads as a form of vote suppression, when they are giving accurate information. I don’t think it’s a valid equivalence.
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@channelc… The issue in Ohio and other states that is really so onerous is that the Republicans have co-opted the power of the state for their political ends, not because the vote is being suppressed.
I think what cc is saying here is that Republicans have established themselves in positions of power and taken over the machinery of government, and now are using it to advance their own political agenda for their own purposes rather than for the good of the people. When this happens, voter suppression is just one of the things they can do with their power and is merely another symptom of the underlying danger… not the problem itself.
If so, I agree compeletly. It’s actually kind of terrifying that a politcal party can do this. Some how there should be more checks and balances to prevent such abuses of power… but that is difficult within the American system where there is such a general horror of “regulation.”
By the way, cc… welcome! It’ always nice to have a new voice in here… especially somebody who is smart and thoughtful enough to look below the surface of things.
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#12 written by channelclemente 9 months ago
Just from the
point of view of political effectiveness, it’s important to differentiate
between what I call ‘tactical voter suppression’ and what the GOP is and has
been up to for decades. What they’ve
done with the courts, elected judges, and prefab legislation via the Kochites
is a business strategy writ large. In
many ways it’s the tactic used in proxy acquisition to insulate a CEO, and
board of directors from its shareholders real and actual interference. Democrats, being lumpers and not splitters in
the taxonomy of strategies just simply missed it happening right before their
eyes. Maybe Chris Hayes is right in his
Élites critique. Who was it, Barbara
Tuchman, who commented on a political culture being captivated by the beauty of
its own narrative, or as we might say, swallowing your own BS.Thank you for the
kind welcome, I’ve been reading for some time.
As a San Francisco Giants, and sabermetrically inclined baseball fan, it’s a
small world with many fewer interesting things in it beyond politics and
baseball. -
@cc.. sabermetrics! C’mon, fess up, cc… you’re really Nate Silver, stopping by to pay us a visit, right?
Your Giants are doing great this year… even holding those pesky Dodgers at bay. I’m jealous that you get to watch Lincecum all the time. He’s a fascinating player.
Meanwhile, my Blue Jays are languishing in the cellar… again… sigh. My only comfort is that parksie’s Phillies are right down there with us, also playing .460 ball this year… that does ease the pain a bit.
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#14 written by channelclemente 9 months ago
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#15 written by channelclemente 9 months ago
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cc..
a.) Encarnacion? Over my dead body.
b.) I’m mad at Jobu. He made certain implied promises regarding my hockey team that have not as yet been fulfilled.
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@Michael… Perhaps there should be, but it’s hard to see how to get there.
Well, for one thing, getting a lot of the money out of politics would be a start. (We are going to see the negative repercussions of Citizens United for a long, long time.)
And lobbying should be much more stringently regulated.
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filistro,
Your Giants are doing great this year…
We’ll see how well they do without the juiced Melk.
I’m jealous that you get to watch Lincecum all the time.
A man who has all but melted down this year.
Sorry, I’m kind of dour about baseball this year, what with Ichiro leaving Seattle for New York. Not that I hold it against him; it’s really his only chance at getting a ring. But it still hurts.
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#22 written by channelclemente 9 months ago
Weiss,
I may be an atipical Giants fan, but as far as I’m concerned, Bonds and Cabrera can share the same jail cell. Lincecum has been melting down for 3–4 years, it’s all been there to see in the numbers (xFIP for example). As to Ichiro, he’ll play hell getting a ring with the NYY, IMO.
I think, given the circumstances in the legislatures of swing states (GOP held), it’s either grin and bear it while getting out the vote and getting the required IDs or the AG (Holder) gets involved and we have every TeaParty knuckledragger, as Boehner called them, up in arms. Some problems only time, persistance, and fortitude solve. You can’t intellectualize the argument with folks who believe Noah kept the TRex’s off the ark.
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@Michael… Should we take the silence to indicate agreement?
I think we can take the silence to indicate shame and embarrassment.
It’s the same at every conservative site I visit. There is no discussion of this issue, ever. NONE. They really, really don’t want to talk about it.… but they don’t want to stop it from happening, either. They know it’s their secret path to winning this time around, and legality (or morality) be damned… they are going to do what it takes to win.
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#26 written by GROG 9 months ago
Another little nugget from the Quinnipiac poll:
Ohio voters support 75 — 23 percent efforts in some states to require voters to show photo identification cards, seeing these measures as a way to prevent ineligible people from voting rather than a measure to suppress voter turnout.
But yeah, it’s the Republican Party that’s imploding.
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#27 written by shortchain 9 months ago
On the support for “voter ID” laws in Ohio:
“You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time…”
And I’ll interpolate in here that you can fool a lot of the people a lot of the time.
Does the fact that the party you support is making fools of a lot of people, for supporting a law that would not fix a problem that doesn’t exist make you feel good? It doesn’t do a thing for me, but maybe that’s just my own problem.
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#28 written by mostlyilurk 9 months ago
I thought Republicans were concerned about unnecessary laws and regulations. Hasn’t it been proven that there are few, if any, actual instances of voter fraud? If so, one has to wonder whether or not the new laws and regulations are necessary — and, if they aren’t necessary, why aren’t Republicans up in arms over them?
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Grog, I note that you didn’t comment on Michael’s recent article on vote fraud and risk analysis.
The whole “voter ID” thing is a clear case of implementing one small part of a much larger agenda to suppress the vote — changing the hours that polling places are open, closing polling places in minority communities, making it harder to register by shutting down voter registration campaigns, changing the rules on absentee voting, forbidding election judges from informing voters that they’re in the wrong polling place, and on and on.
Republican strategists have admitted the idea is to alter who is allowed to vote. They’ve admitted (remember the Republican leader from Pennsylvania?) that the intent is to affect who gets elected. It’s a simple extension of gerrymandering and voter caging and dirty ticks like spreading misinformation about where and when to vote.
I accept there are people in the general public who have honestly bought the dishonest propaganda about “voter fraud.” That doesn’t alter the underlying reality — if Republican strategists believed their policies were popular and proper and could stand up to honest scrutiny, they wouldn’t have to rely on such manipulation of the electorate.
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@GROG… Ohio voters support 75 — 23 percent efforts in some states to
require voters to show photo identification cards, seeing these
measures as a way to prevent ineligible people from voting rather
than a measure to suppress voter turnout.Yes, but a lot depends on how you word the polling question.
You can ask… “Do you think Voter ID laws should be instituted to prevent fraud at the voting booth?”
Or you can ask… “Do you think 90-year old black grandmas who marched with MLK and pride themselves on voting in every election should be denied the right to vote because they’ve never had a driver’s license and can’t afford the 8-mile trip to obtain one?”
The results (as they say) may vary.
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#33 written by parksie555 9 months ago
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#34 written by shortchain 9 months ago
parksie,
Just what problem do you think these voter ID laws are fixing? I have never heard an answer to that that makes sense, given the documented lack of any cases where the laws would do any good.So are you in favor of a poll tax? After all, if it’s fine to insist on a picture ID, it should be fine to insist on some tiny payment, say a few dollars.
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if they cannot do that, are allowed to cast a provisional ballot.
And the provisional ballot is not counted if you don’t get a picture ID. So if you couldn’t afford the time or cost to obtain a picture ID, you still can;t vote.
Your argument is empty and disingenuous.
Since the picture ID serves no purpose, and requires millions of people to jump through hoops they otherwise wouldn’t have to, it is clearly designed for no purpose other than to make voting more difficult — and perhaps impossible for many people.
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#36 written by GROG 9 months ago
DC,
The whole “voter ID” thing is a clear case of implementing one small part of a much larger agenda to suppress the vote — changing the hours that polling places are open, closing polling places in minority communities, making it harder to register by shutting down voter registration campaigns, changing the rules on absentee voting, forbidding election judges from informing voters that they’re in the wrong polling place, and on and on.
Perhaps you’re speaking of the agenda of Ohio Secretary of State Jon Husted to suppress the vote in his state. The New York Times gave a scathing rebuke of Husted, and the far left is up in arms about his voter suppression efforts, including a lawsuit from President Obama.
This is how he’s supressing votes: He’s made early voting the same for everyone in Ohio. Ohioans now are limited to these times to vote.
Between October 2nd and October 19th, voting can be done between 8am and 5pm, Monday through Friday.
Between October 22nd and November 2nd, voting can be done between 8am and 9pm, Monday through Friday.
That’s 230 hours over 22 days in which voters can vote early in Ohio.
If a voter cannot make it during those 230 hours, they can vote by mail. Every single registered voter will recieve a card so they can sign up to vote by mail if they wish.
If they cannot make it during those 230 hours and are unable to figure out how to vote by mail, they can still do it the old fashioned way — show up to vote at their local precinct on election day.
And for all of this, Obama is suing Ohio because early voting cannot be done on weekends. It’s voter suppression ya know.
The thing is, nobody is buying it. I hope it’s a narrative Obama talks about to no end between now and election day.
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#37 written by GROG 9 months ago
And the provisional ballot is not counted if you don’t get a picture ID. So if you couldn’t afford the time or cost to obtain a picture ID, you still can;t vote.
Your argument is empty and disingenuous.
No it’s not disingenuous at all. This is a summary of the voter ID law in Ohio.
- A current and valid photo identification card issued by the State of Ohio or the United States government; or
- A military identification (“military ID”); or
- An original or copy of a current utility bill; or
- An original or copy of a current bank statement; or
- An original or copy of a current government check; or
- An original or copy of a current paycheck; or
- An original or copy of a current other government document, other than a voter registration acknowledgement notification mailed by the board of elections, that shows the voter’s name and current address.
If you don’t have any of those and are not able to provide any, you can cast a provisional ballot.
Somehow, this is voter suppression.
Notice how you don’t have to spend the money or the time to get a photo ID. Perhaps it’s you who is being disingenuous?
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#38 written by GROG 9 months ago
Michael,
Because those without approved photographic identification are disproportionately minorities, the poor, and college students, all groups that are dominated by Democratic voters.
College ID’s are acceptable forms of ID in Pennsylvania.
Voter ID cards are free in Pennsylvania.
If a voter does not have or cannot get proper ID, they can cast a provisional ballot in Pennsylvania.This is the same as Jim Crow laws?
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GROG,
College ID’s are acceptable forms of ID in Pennsylvania.
Some college IDs are acceptable. Do you know which institutions provide IDs that qualify?
Voter ID cards are free in Pennsylvania.
The ID itself is free (as it must be). But to get one they must produce a Social Security card, a raised-seal birth certificate (or US passport), and two proofs of residency. The raised-seal birth certificate is not free (nor is its substitute, the US passport), nor is it necessarily as trivial to obtain as I suspect you believe. And it’s harder than you think for many people to provide two proofs of residency, as this eliminates anyone whose spouse or roommate is the one whose names are on the bills.
If a voter does not have or cannot get proper ID, they can cast a provisional ballot in Pennsylvania.
Which is literally worthless without the above documentation.
This is the same as Jim Crow laws?
It has the same intent as a subset of Jim Crow laws. Whether that is sufficiently similar to constitute “the same” is a matter of interpretation.
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This is how he’s supressing votes: He’s made early voting the same
for everyone in Ohio. Ohioans now are limited to these times to vote.I’m talking about more than Ohio, though Ohio is a particularly egregious example. (More restrictive laws have been passed in close to two dozen states — it is a nationwide Republican voter suppression effort.) You are aware that the current hours were reached after Ohio tried to get rid of all early voting for Democratic leaning counties, right? There’s no question the attempt was to suppress Democratic votes.
In Ohio, prior to this year, early voting was also allowed on weekends. This was done specifically to encourage working people to vote, particularly the working poor who can’t take time off during working hours. Which means that eliminating weekend early voting was done specifically to make it harder for those same people to vote.
The disingenuous and condescending excuses you’re providing aren’t fooling anyone.
Somehow, this is voter suppression.
Yes, it most surely is. These new laws were instituted under the excuse of stopping in-person voter fraud, of which there were ten cases, nationwide, for the entirety of this millennium to date. You are asking tens or hundreds of thousands of registered voters, in Ohio alone (and Pennsylvania, and other states) to jump though extra hoops to exercise their most sacred Constitutional rights, simply for your amusement. It’s an outrage and it is as close to blasphemy as you can come in a secular state.
It is clearly being done to inconcienance (and therefore suppress the votes of) certain classes of people. It is being done by Republicans. The alleged reason is nonsense (as shown both by the fact that it’s not happening, and by Michael’s analysis of the stupidity of using this method of attempted fraud anyway) — and if in-person voter fraud was happening, this would be an ineffective approach. No one is fooled. It is straightforward voter suppression.
This is the same as Jim Crow laws?
Yes. If one doesn’t have any of those forms of ID, then it costs time and money to get them. That is a poll tax. It disproportionately impacts the poor and minorities. That is the essence of Jim Crow.
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If you don’t have any of those and are not able to provide any, you can cast a provisional ballot.
I will repeat myself. I already answered this in #35, which you quoted. The provisional ballot doesn’t count if you don’t have one of the forms of ID they require. Why make registered voters jump through your hoops for your amusement? Do you take some sadistic pleasure from making life harder for the working poor?
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Grog,
This is a summary of the voter ID law in Ohio.
- A current and valid photo identification card issued by the State of Ohio or the United States government; or
- A military identification (“military ID”); or
- An original or copy of a current utility bill; or
- An original or copy of a current bank statement; or
- An original or copy of a current government check; or
- An original or copy of a current paycheck; or
- An original or copy of a current other government document,
other than a voter registration acknowledgement notification
mailed by the board of elections, that shows the voter’s name and
current address.If you don’t have any of those and are not able to provide any, you can cast a provisional ballot.
Let’s take a registered voter, a woman who is married, and doesn’t drive. She takes care of her kids while her husband works. She’s never been in the military. The utility bills and checking account are not in her name. Neither she nor her husband recieve any government assistance.
She has none of these forms of ID. She could get a state ID, but that would mean traveling 20 miles during business hours while her husband is at work. How does she get there? For free? She doesn’t.
If she tries to vote, she is given a “provisional ballot” — which doesn’t count unless she returns to the polling place with a valid ID within a few days.
Your nonsense law has disenfranchised this woman for no reason other than callous cruelty at best, or intentional voter suppression at worst. If she manages to obtain an ID, it costs her (and her husband) time and money (at the very least, travel time and costs, and probably the cost of obtaining a birth certificate or social security card or other ID, probably lost wages). This is the definition of a poll tax.
It is intentional voter suppression, and it is dishonest and disingenuous to claim otherwise.
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#43 written by parksie555 9 months ago
Well dc , it may be voter supression to you, but to around 75% of Americans it’s a pretty reasonable precaution against voter fraud, to make sure that their right to vote is not denied by someone casting an illegal ballot.
But if you weren’t in the 25% (or less) loony left, you probably wouldn’t be here.
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#44 written by GROG 9 months ago
Michael,
Some college IDs are acceptable. Do you know which institutions provide IDs that qualify?
Yes I do. Any accredited PA university, college, seminary, community college or two-year college.But to get one they must produce a Social Security card, a raised-seal birth certificate (or US passport), and two proofs of residency. The raised-seal birth certificate is not free (nor is its substitute, the US passport), nor is it necessarily as trivial to obtain as I suspect you believe.
Not really, Micheal. Pennsylvania has what it is called a “Request for Certification of Birth Record for Voter ID Purposes Only”. PA Form HDO1564F. It’s free of charge. No raised-seal birtch certificate required. Very easy to obtain.
And it’s harder than you think for many people to provide two proofs of residency, as this eliminates anyone whose spouse or roommate is the one whose names are on the bills.
Again, not really. It’s quite simple. PA will accept such things as magazine subscription and bills from doctors offices as proof of residency. And “According to the State Department, if the voter does not have any of these documents, PennDOT will work with the voter to establish the second proof of residency.”
It’s clear that Pennsylvania will do whatever is necessary to ensure that anyone who wants to vote, can vote.
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#45 written by shortchain 9 months ago
There isn’t an infinite supply of time or resources, so to say the state of Pennsylvania will do “whatever is necessary” is pablum. What will actually happen is that resources will be allocated — and, as has been the history in recent times, those resources will be richer in affluent, Republican, districts, and be sparse in central cities.
And this is fine with some people.
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#46 written by Max 9 months ago
Seeing the non-issue of voter ID fraud has been around for many cycles, the DAMNING thing about this as an issue is its immediacy! One more election would not make a difference, so causing the laws to go into effect by skipping a cycle before the implementation would have made it almost a none issue.
But then, I guess it’s only coincidental that THIS CYCLE the re-election of Obama is the critical point.
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Well dc , it may be voter supression to you, but to around 75% of
AmericansSlavery was once acceptable to 75% of Americans as well. And there was a time when it was thought the sun orbited the Earth, and that kings ruled by Divine Right. There is a reason we don’t assign (or dis-assign) individual rights based on opinion polls.
their right to vote is not denied by someone casting an illegal ballot.
Your right to vote is never denied by someone else voting. That’s stoopid. If you voted then you voted. Besides since there have been a total of ten cases of in-person voter fraud in the entire nation since the beginning of this millennium, this nonsense cure is far worse than the alleged disease. You’re willing to deny the rights of tens of thousands of people to prevent a non-existent problem. You’re trying to stop the threat of a hangnail by cutting off your arm. I’m sorry, and pardon my Anglo-Saxon, but that argument is bullshit.
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#49 written by GROG 9 months ago
DC,
You must have missed my earlier comment #44 from this morning. There is another thing I didn’t point out though.
Michael wrote:
The Pennsylvania Department of Transportation estimates that nine percent of registered voters lack state-issued photographic identification as required by their new voter identification law.
State-issued photo ID is not required by their new voter ID law. College ID’s and even such things as nursing home ID’s are acceptable.This comes down to what I think is a fundamental difference between the right/middle and liberal progressives. Liberal progressives apparently think the poor and minorities and too dumb and too lazy to complete the simple and cost free task of obtaining proper photo identification to vote.
That’s why only those on the extreme far left oppose voter ID laws, while 75% of Americans approve of them.
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#50 written by shortchain 9 months ago
GROG,
Apparently you think that the only reason a person might have difficulty in getting a proper ID is because they are “dumb and lazy”. Don’t put that idea on us. We understand, as you, thanks to your privileged life, apparently do not that people who are working endless hours just to make ends meet, who don’t have the protection of a union, who perhaps don’t have a reliable car or the money to buy gas for anything but required trips aren’t going to be able to afford the time and effort to deal with the roadblocks the GOP is putting up in some cases (a few percent — these people are, contrary to your opinion, good citizens).STOP PROJECTING YOUR OPINION ABOUT PEOPLE WHO MAY HAVE DIFFICULTY MEETING THE ID REQUIREMENTS ONTO THE REST OF US.
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#51 written by parksie555 9 months ago
I’m not addressing Michael’s comments because he is missing what is probably the most prevalent mode of voter fraud. Gather a list of people that died recently in a precinct, go to a homeless shelter with an couple cases of MD 20/20, and instruct the bums in the shelter to vote as the recently deceased in exchange for said MD 20⁄20. It works quite well when said bums are not required to present ID.
And GROG eviscerated MWeiss’ arguments about the “difficulties” of obtaining voter ID in Pennsylvania, so it’s not surprising he has no more comments to make on this thread.
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#52 written by Max 9 months ago
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Liberal progressives apparently think the poor and minorities and
too dumb and too lazy to complete the simple and cost free task of
obtaining proper photo identification to vote.No. We believe roadblocks should not be put in the way of people exercising their Constitutional rights, for no reason other than to put roadblocks in the way of people exercising their Constitutional rights. Apparently rightists feel it’s okay to put up those roadblocks, even though there is no rational justification for it.
And it isn’t “simple” or “cost free”, as has been many times pointed out. Apparently rightists also feel no obligation to acknowledge fact.
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parksie,
Please cite your local papers as to how many times that ” most
prevalent mode of voter fraud” occurred in your locality over the past
decade or so.It may be hard for parksie to discover how many times it has happened in his locality, since it has happened ten times in the entire nation since the beginning of the millennium.
Parksie, as usual, is pulling nonsense out of … well. the air … instead of doing any actual, you know, research.
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Grog,
You must have missed my earlier comment #44 from this morning.
No, I caught that. You still didn’t address Michael’s point in his article. The type of voter fraud that you guys are so frightened of not only isn’t happening, but it is something that’s absurd to even attempt to defend against. The costs of trying to do something about it are too high, and the benefit is far too low. Please read the article, and respond to the argument.
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State-issued photo ID is not required by their new voter ID law.
College ID’s and even such things as nursing home ID’s are acceptable.And… for people who don’t drive, and don’t go to college, and don’t live in nursing homes.… ?
You want people who are already registered to vote to take time off from work, obtain a birth certificate and something else, find a government place to get ID, travel around the city (or the county, or the state) to get the official ID they need … even though there is no voter fraud happening that you’re supposedly guarding against.
Just to prove you can make poor people jump through hoops. Because of your paranoia over something that’s not happening.
Let’s pretend there is no intent or desire to suppress the vote (even though Republican officials admit that is their intent). The alternative is that either paranoia, or cruelty, or both is behind this nonsense.
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GROG,
Do you know which institutions provide IDs that qualify?
Yes I do. Any accredited PA university, college, seminary, community college or two-year college.
Aparently you don’t. I read the law, and it doesn’t say that.
Pennsylvania has what it is called a “Request for Certification of Birth Record for Voter ID Purposes Only”. PA Form HDO1564F. It’s free of charge.
And, naturally, all Pennsylvania residents without a photo id can get their “Certification of Birth Record for Voter ID Purposes Only” from the state, yes?
Liberal progressives apparently think the poor and minorities and too dumb and too lazy to complete the simple and cost free task of obtaining proper photo identification to vote.
Not at all. They think that there’s not much time left before an important election, and that some percentage will be unable to complete it in time. Is it your assertion that there will be zero such instances?
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parksie,
I’m not addressing Michael’s comments because he is missing what is probably the most prevalent mode of voter fraud. Gather a list of people that died recently in a precinct, go to a homeless shelter with an couple cases of MD 20/20, and instruct the bums in the shelter to vote as the recently deceased in exchange for said MD 20⁄20. It works quite well when said bums are not required to present ID.
Just as easily caught as the method I described. It’s not hard after the election to find out which dead people voted. It’s been checked already. And, surprise, surprise…it hasn’t been happening since the 1960s. Why? For the reasons I listed in the article.
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#60 written by Max 9 months ago
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#61 written by mostlyilurk 9 months ago
So, let me see if I have this straight:
There’s little or no evidence of any voter fraud having occurred.
Despite that fact, members of the party who claim to be philosophically opposed to unnecessary laws and regulations pass a law to address the non-existent problem.
Implementation of the law will require that government resources be expended at a time when government resources are already stretched.
The law presents a real risk that people who are qualified to do so will be prevented from exercising their right to vote.
One of the leaders of the party who claims to be philosophically opposed to unnecessary laws and regulations has stated that by passing the law, they have ensured that Mitt Romney will win the state.
However, anyone who suggests that there may be a different motive for passing the law (i.e., other than to address said non-existent problem) is a crazy, left-wing lunatic who has lost touch with reality. -
#64 written by GROG 9 months ago
That’s it in a nutshell.
Forgive me, but I don’t believe you to believe that’s true. I’ll give two examples for why I feel that way.
You’ve misrepresented at least two facets of Pennsylvania’s voter ID law. The first being college students. I know you claim I’m wrong when I said “Yes I do. Any accredited PA university, college, seminary, community college or two-year college.”
I’ll quote directly from votespa.com.
“Yes, an ID issued by an accredited Pennsylvania public or private institution of higher learning is acceptable provided the ID contains a NAME, a PHOTO, and an EXPIRATION DATE that is CURRENT.”
Here is a list of colleges, universities, seminaries, community colleges and other two-year colleges
that are considered accredidted institutions of higher learning.Secondly, you misrepresented the cost of obtaining a birth certificate for voting purposes in Pennsylvania.
I don’t believe that you didn’t know a PA voter could obtain a non-raised seal birth certificate for voting purposes, for free. I also don’t believe (although you claim to have other information) that you didn’t know that PA college photo ID’s are acceptable forms of indentification.
If it’s as simple as and “in a nutshell” as MIL stated in #61, why the misrepresentations?
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#65 written by GROG 9 months ago
mil,
There’s little or no evidence of any voter fraud having occurred.
Do you not remember back in 2008 when Norm Coleman was running against Al Franken for U.S. Senate? After 3 million votes, Coleman had a 725 vote lead. Democrats unleashed an army of lawyers to challenge the count and after many months of recounts and bickering, Franken was declared the winner by 312 votes.
A group called Minnesota Majority claimed that 1099 ineligible felons had cast fraudlent votes.
To date 177 people have been convicted of voter fraud in that Senate election. Another 66 await trial. By the way, in Minnesota, a voter must knowingly have commited voter fraud to be convicted.So in an election decided by 312 votes, 243 people have either been convicted of voter fraud or are awaiting trial for voter fraud. Incidentally, that election gave Obama the 60th vote in favor of Obama’s health care proposal.
Little or no evidence that any voter fraud has occured? Come on.
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GROG,
I don’t believe you to believe that’s true.
Believe what you want.
You’ve misrepresented at least two facets of Pennsylvania’s voter ID law.
No, I haven’t. You are just misinterpreting my statements. Unlike you, I won’t attribute that to malfeasance on your part.
I know you claim I’m wrong when I said “Yes I do. Any accredited PA university, college, seminary, community college or two-year college.”
I do claim that. You quoted from VotesPA the following:
an ID issued by an accredited Pennsylvania public or private institution of higher learning is acceptable provided the ID contains a NAME, a PHOTO, and an EXPIRATION DATE that is CURRENT
If you cannot see how the statement you provided is different from the VotesPA statement, I’d suggest you carefully parse the two statements. If that doesn’t clue you in, I’m afraid I can’t do much for you. The two statements are not equivalent.
you misrepresented the cost of obtaining a birth certificate for voting purposes in Pennsylvania
No, I didn’t.
I don’t believe that you didn’t know a PA voter could obtain a non-raised seal birth certificate for voting purposes, for free.
Can all Pennsylvania voters obtain this for free? I asked you this before, and you didn’t answer.
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#68 written by GROG 9 months ago
If you cannot see how the statement you provided is different from the VotesPA statement, I’d suggest you carefully parse the two statements. If that doesn’t clue you in, I’m afraid I can’t do much for you. The two statements are not equivalent.
After wading through the snark, I will assume you mean the expiration date clause. I live 10 miles from the PA border. I’m quite in tune with news in the state. Every accredited institution of higher learning in the state that I know of either has an expiration date already or is issuing stickers with expiration dates. Feel free to list all the colleges in PA that are refusing to issue expiration stickers.
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#69 written by shortchain 9 months ago
GROG,
You really shouldn’t take what Minnesota Majority says as gospel. They are simply making crap up. If you search, you can find where their claims have been examined, exploded, and found wanting.Briefly, what they’ve done is what has been done by other groups: find people whose names match those of people who are either deceased, or have felony convictions, or the like, who should not be able to vote. Then, without checking to see if the people are actually those people, they claim fraud. When the authorities check, it is found that those people were, actually, entitled to vote or that no “fraud” was committed for other reasons. But MN Majority (which, by the way, represents about 10 percent of the population, killing irony), never retracts their bogus claims.
As for Norm Coleman’s election, that was the cleanest election you ever saw. The election judges went over the ballots with extreme care. Sure, the outcome was very close — so close that the margin of error could arguably be larger than the difference — but the election was reviewed by courts, overseen by people from both parties, and in the end they agreed on who won. Even Coleman agreed, although he probably will now claim, retroactively, that he didn’t agree.
Face it. You’ve got nothing here. You are relying on people who make crap up out of thin air. If you believe them, you are a fool.
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GROG,
Every accredited institution of higher learning in the state that I know of either has an expiration date already or is issuing stickers with expiration dates.
Does that mean all of them do?
I don’t believe that you didn’t know a PA voter could obtain a non-raised seal birth certificate for voting purposes, for free.
Third try: Can all Pennsylvania voters obtain this for free?
Or, we can cut through the crap and you can answer the very simple question this all leads to: What percent of people who didn’t have appropriate ID prior to the law will get it in time for the election? What do you think?
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#72 written by Max 9 months ago
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Do you not remember back in 2008 when Norm Coleman was running
against Al Franken for U.S. Senate? After 3 million votes, Coleman
had a 725 vote lead. Democrats unleashed an army of lawyers to
challenge the count and after many months of recounts and
bickering, Franken was declared the winner by 312 votes.… a total which would not have been changed by any voter ID law. So quoting this election and the recount is meaningless in the current discussion.
A group called Minnesota Majority claimed that 1099 ineligible felons had cast fraudlent votes.
Minnesota Majority? DO you know who they are? Why do you believe their claims? What evidence do they have?
It’s a group of partisan malcontents. You’re not in Minnesota. I am. This group has no standing, and no credibility. They’re a nonsense propaganda organization. You need to stop reading paranoid right-wing sites. You really do.
The Coleman/Franken election and its recount was one of the cleanest and most thorough in US history. I will not have you dissing Minnesota that way.
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#74 written by GROG 9 months ago
DC,
It’s a group of partisan malcontents. You’re not in Minnesota. I am. This group has no standing, and no credibility. They’re a nonsense propaganda organization. You need to stop reading paranoid right-wing sites. You really do.
sc,
Face it. You’ve got nothing here. You are relying on people who make crap up out of thin air. If you believe them, you are a fool.
Are you guys claiming that the 243 people who have been convicted of or are awaiting trial have been falsely convicted or falsely accused?
Minn Majority “makes crap up out of thin air”. They have “no standing or credibility”. They’re a “propaganda organization”. And yet their research has led to 243 arrests for voter fraud, which allegedly doesn’t exist.
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#75 written by GROG 9 months ago
Michael,
Yes, they did. Let’s start by assuming that every one of those claims is true. How many of them would have been prevented from voting by the institution of a Voter ID law?
I don’t know. How would I know? But if 1110 people cast fraudulent votes in a Senate election, how do you know voter fraud isn’t more prevelant than you think? I’m dealing with the misrepresentations which leads me to believe this isn’t as cut and dry as you all are trying to argue.
MIL claims there is litle or no evidence that voter fraud exists. That is false. If the argument is so air tight, why the false claims?
Let’s stop with the misrepresentations and put all the facts on the table, like how simple and free it is to obtain voter ID in Pennsylvania.
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#76 written by GROG 9 months ago
Michael,
Third try: Can all Pennsylvania voters obtain this for free?
I’m tired of answering questions that you presumably already know the answer to. I will not be treated some kind of pawn for the amusement of the back patters and hair tosslers, like Max, who has sadly become a caricature of himself around here.
All you had to do was present the fact that voters who were born outside of PA must to go to the state in which they were born to obtain a birth certificate, if they don’t already have one. That would have been much easier. I’m not able to spend the extraordinary amount of time on the internet like Max. I just don’t have time for the back and forth. I would ask you to just present your facts, rather than asking if I know the answer.
How many residents of PA 1) do not have any acceptable voter ID and 2) have no birth certificate 3) and were not born in PA 4) and were born in a state that does not offer free raised seal birth certificates?
Do you know that number?
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#77 written by shortchain 9 months ago
GROG,
You really want to check on just what crime those people “who have already been convicted or are awaiting trial” are actually on trial, or convicted of. (Hint: it’s not “impersonation of a voter”.)“MN Majority” is an organization that lies through its teeth, cannot do simple arithmetic, and is racist to its core. A near-perfect example of modern conservatism.
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#78 written by Max 9 months ago
“I’m tired of answering questions that you presumably already know the answer ”
It’s an axiom that you do not ask a question, in debate or the courtroom, to which you don’t already know the answer!
“
the back patters and hair tosslers, like Max, who has sadly become a caricature of himself around here. “Only the childish acting get their backs patted and lil heads tousled!
“ I’m not able to spend the extraordinary amount of time on the internet like Max. ”
Gonna have to call “bullshit” on that one! Ya got PLENTY of time to research and come up with this Minnesota Majority (that practically no one outside MN or the “ID” movement ever heard of) that supports YOUR position. And PLENTY of time to play word volleyball, instead of driving directly to a point. Besides, I admit that retirement has its downside: golfing, sailing, spending exorbitant amounts of time on the internet. But, hey! SOMEBODY’S got to do it!
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#79 written by GROG 9 months ago
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#80 written by shortchain 9 months ago
GROG,
I am saying that they were wrongly accused of “impersonation of a legal voter”, and they were not convicted of same. Which is not to say that they did not cast a vote when they shouldn’t. However, they were, in all cases, registered to vote, voted as themselves, and a “voter ID” would not in any of those cases, prevented them from casting their ballot.By the way, to forestall the inevitable claim that racism was charged but not evident — as their first graphic in their campaign they released one with images of people who, presumably, voted illegally. In spite of the fact that Minnesota is pretty much lily-white, the graphic was dominated by minorities. After this was pointed out, the group pulled it — but it is telling that their first idea of who “illegal voters” looked like wasn’t white.
Look, I’ve been getting their campaign releases since their inception, thanks to somebody’s idea of a prank, apparently. I know what I’m talking about here.
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@shortchain… However, they were, in all cases, registered to vote, voted as
themselves, and a “voter ID” would not in any of those cases,
prevented them from casting their ballot.Yes! Well put… and of course that’s the whole issue, isn’t it.
The current GOP effort is akin to saying, “Look… at a State dinner a few years ago, a couple gained entrance under false pretenses. This is obviously a huge threat to national security. So from now on, anybody attending a State dinner must provide state-authorized proof that they have had a smallpox vaccination.”
Or the Todd Akin version of this: “Lots and lots of slutty women falsely claim rape in order to get free abortions. So to forestall this, we will institute a new policy requiring ALL women claiming rape to prove they can sing Eidelweiss on key.”
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#82 written by mostlyilurk 9 months ago
Grog,
It’s my understanding that during the hearing on PA’s voter i.d. law, the state admitted that there had been no instances of voter fraud and/or presented no evidence of voter fraud. My statement (that you’ve characterized as false) was based on that. Did I have it wrong, i.e., during the hearing in PA, the state did, in fact, present evidence of the voter fraud that had occurred that the statute was meant to address?
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#83 written by Max 9 months ago
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#84 written by mostlyilurk 9 months ago
I just did a bit of quick research of my own to confirm that my understanding was correct. Just prior to the hearing, PA signed a stipulation which stated that there “have been no investigations or prosecutions of in-person voter fraud in Pennsylvania; and the parties do not have direct personal knowledge of any such investigations or prosecutions in other states.” So, as it turns out, what I was said in #61 was accurate. I’ve no doubt that Grog will retract his assertion that that it was false.
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So far, no one here has indicated a single instance of voter fraud that an ID law would have prevented. Not one. Nor has anyone even attempted to counter Michael’s cost vs risk argument. We’ve had misdirection, but no substance from the pro-restrictions people, who want to pile on useless government regulations alledgedly to address a problem that does not exist, with a solution that WILL cause some legitimate voters to lose thier vote. We can ONLY conclude that is the purpose for it.
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To a degree, mostlyilurk is missing the point here. I do not argue, nor have I ever argued, that there is no fraud in American elections. There is, and I know that there is.
But addressing a vulnerability requires a mitigation that addresses that vulnerability. To wit, in response to me asking:
How many of [the accused fraudulent votes in Minnesota] would have been prevented from voting by the institution of a Voter ID law?
GROG answered,
I don’t know. How would I know?
How we would know is by reading the Minnesota Majority’s method. They gave us the answer to the question, if only we look. How did they find these felon voters? They compared the lists of those who voted to lists of those who were convicted felons. Which means that these were people who were registered to vote, showed up at the polls identifying themselves, and signed the registration books by their names. Had they shown up with their photo IDs, they would have shown them to the poll worker, signed the book, taken their ballot, filled them out, and submitted them. The votes would have been counted the same had Pennsylvania’s new law in place.
How many residents of PA 1) do not have any acceptable voter ID and 2) have no birth certificate 3) and were not born in PA 4) and were born in a state that does not offer free raised seal birth certificates?
Do you know that number?
No, but we can make some reasonable educated guesses. The judge in the case figured about a million registered voters in Pennsylvania don’t have acceptable voter ID. According to the US Census Bureau, 25% of Pennsylvania residents were born in another state, so that leaves us with 250,000. Of that 250,000, how many don’t have a birth certificate? Let’s say 1% (it’s probably closer to 5%; people frequently lose their birth certificates, since they’re rarely needed), which leaves us with 2,500. I couldn’t find a state that offers free raised seal birth certificates, and it wasn’t for lack of trying.
So we’re talking about, best case, 2,500 people denied the vote in order to prevent the type of fraud that has been found on average once per year, nationwide. If we normalize that to Pennsylvania by population (3% of the nation’s population), and assume that this fraud happens only in Presidential years (meaning as many as five per election, nationwide), we get just under 0.2 votes per election.
In other words, for every fraudulent vote that we prevent, we are denying 12,500 legitimate votes. GROG, parksie, do either of you consider that a worthy trade? If so, why?
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#87 written by Max 9 months ago
Michael,
An excellent mathematical reduction demonstrating the (false) problem.
“The good Christian should beware the mathematician (, the Voter ID antagonist )and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians ( and the Voter ID antagonist) have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of hell.”
— Saint Augustine
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#88 written by shortchain 9 months ago
I would add to Michael’s excellent comment that “MN Majority” also, so far as I can determine, has not eliminated the possibility that people with the same name exist who are legal voters. Their method used a match on first name, last name, and birth year. This means that two people born in the same year with the name “Alan Johnson”, where one was convicted of a felony, would produce a claim of “voter fraud” where it was the other Alan Johnson who voted.
There are 5 million people in Minnesota, and you can’t throw a rock in a crowd without hitting a Johnson (and possibly a Tollefson, Olson, and Nelson on the ricochet). Rather than actually do the legwork to prove their case, they simply turned the list over to the state authorities, who checked out the names — and no prosecutions resulted.
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#89 written by mostlyilurk 9 months ago
I don’t think I am missing or have missed your point, Michael. You can (or will, lol) correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me that what you’re suggesting is that there needs to be a balancing of the harm that the law will cause v. the benefit that will be realized by its enforcement. If it does more harm then good, then the law is misguided. I don’t disagree with that especially since it seems to me that it will do far more harm than good if people who are qualified to do so are denied the right to vote.
With regard to my posts, I was, quite frankly, taken aback by the supporters of the law claiming that anyone who suggested that there was an ulterior motive for it was so partisan that s/he was unable to analyze it rationally. I was simply trying to point out that, at least in PA, the very people who passed the law stipulated that the problem it was meant to address did not exist in their state. I was hoping that this might help the law’s supporters see why others might have a problem with it and/or might believe there was an ulterior motive for its enactment, as it sure doesn’t seem to have been enacted to address voter fraud. However, at this point, I’m wondering why I bothered…so it’s probably best for me to be done with the topic. -
mostlyilurk,
I don’t think I am missing or have missed your point, Michael.
Fair enough. It at least gave GROG that impression, from the way he responded to you.
it seems to me that what you’re suggesting is that there needs to be a balancing of the harm that the law will cause v. the benefit that will be realized by its enforcement.
Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying.
I was hoping that this might help the law’s supporters … believe there was an ulterior motive for its enactment
As well they should, when we have at least one occasion where it was explicitly described as such by one of the Pennsylvania law’s architects.
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#91 written by GROG 9 months ago
Michael,
So we’re talking about, best case, 2,500 people denied the vote in order to prevent the type of fraud that has been found on average once per year, nationwide.
This, I guess, is where we differ. You say those 2,500 people are denied the right to vote because they cannot get a free birth certificate. I say most of those 2500 are willing to pony up the $10 or $15 bucks for a birth certificate in order to vote, and which will come in handy in life beyond obtaining a voter ID card. And it’s a one time purchase. If the average voter is 50 years old in PA, it’s costing them about 50 cents per year for their voter ID card.
So if we widdle that number down to the amount of people not willing to pony up the money for a birth certificate, how many of the remaining people vote? Nationwide, only 62% of Americans voted in the general election in 2008. I would say the number is now down in the dozens.
According to the US Census Bureau, 25% of Pennsylvania residents were born in another state, so that leaves us with 250,000. Of that 250,000, how many don’t have a birth certificate?
Perhaps 250,000 people who weren’t born in PA can function as citizens without a drivers license or some other form of acceptable photo ID. Surely you can function without birth certificate if you have photo ID. But I think you’d be hard pressed to find a dozen Pennsylvanians who have been able to function in life with zero forms of identification and no birth certificate.
With all the hub bub about the supposed voter suppresion going on in PA, I’m sure these cases of folks who are going to be denied the right to vote because they don’t have photo ID, don’t have a birth certificate, weren’t born in PA, aren’t willing to or can’t afford 15 bucks to pay for one, are well documented. I’ll be interested in reading about their stories.
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GROG,
You say those 2,500 people are denied the right to vote because they cannot get a free birth certificate. I say most of those 2500 are willing to pony up the $10 or $15 bucks for a birth certificate in order to vote, and which will come in handy in life beyond obtaining a voter ID card.
OK, let’s say 90% of them do (and let’s not forget I was being pretty generous in getting us down to 2,500). We’re still talking about 250 people. And if 62% of them would have voted, that’s 155. Or 775 legitimate votes denied for every illegitimate vote prevented. You think that’s an acceptable tradeoff? Why?
With all the hub bub about the supposed voter suppresion going on in PA, I’m sure these cases of folks who are going to be denied the right to vote because they don’t have photo ID, don’t have a birth certificate, weren’t born in PA, aren’t willing to or can’t afford 15 bucks to pay for one, are well documented. I’ll be interested in reading about their stories.
A handful of their stories were in testimony in the Pennsylvania case.
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#95 written by GROG 8 months ago
And if 62% of them would have voted, that’s 155. Or 775 legitimate votes denied for every illegitimate vote prevented. You think that’s an acceptable tradeoff? Why?
I don’t believe there is any tradeoff. Every American who wants to vote in this (or any other election) will be allowed to vote. PennDot has made it clear that they will do anything possible to accomodate voters and assure everyone who wants to vote, will vote.
This is an example of what I’m talking about.
I think this voter suppression nonsense is nothing more than pre-emptive positioning for Obama to file lawsuits if he loses a state like Pennsylvania.
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PennDot has made it clear that they will do anything possible to
accomodate voters and assure everyone who wants to vote, will vote.That could be accomplished more easily still (in PA as well as other states) by leaving the laws as they were before voter ID.
I ask again — you’re okay with a poll tax? That’s a simple yes or no question.
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#98 written by GROG 8 months ago
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#100 written by GROG 8 months ago
If someone wants to vote and are not denied the right to vote, why wouldn’t they vote?
Because they’re too dumb and lazy?
Because of the cost to obtain an out of state birth certificate? I promise you that if there’s a group of those people out there and they fit a certain voting demographic, there will be numerous organizations with plenty of money to pay for their birth certificates. And if that doesn’t happen, PennDot has made it’s intentions clear that they will do whatever necessary to accomadate any citizen who wants to vote.
1.8 million dead people are registered to vote in the U.S. Today, like in Ohio, it is easier to vote than at any time in our history. If a simple requirement to show some ID makes the system less vulnerable, ensures the public’s confidence in elections (75% approve), and doesn’t deny the right of anyone to vote, then there is not reason not to have the laws in place.
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About Michael Weiss (325 posts)
Michael is a jack of many trades, and master of a few. His varied background includes government and private businesses, both large and small. His experience in the financial services and computer industries has led him to computer security.





I’m just dreaming here, but I feel it’s long past time we begin to accept and embrace error in our everyday lives. The inability to accept statistical error is just one more example of our partisan divide.
For example, I’ve railed before on how the unacceptably high bar set by the SCOTUS in redistricting cases actually results in more gerrymandering. Allowing for a bit of error in the census when an independent redistricting committee approaches the work makes for a much more rational map. (Interestingly, on the input side of the equation, Republicans have fought for an exact census count, which is impossible, while Democrats have historically argued for statistical sampling and estimation methods.)
In the present case, we need to accept that no vote count can be 100% accurate, and that there’s going to be statistical noise no matter what we do. Isolated and small cases of voter fraud don’t concern me. A huge, massive effort to stamp out those isolated cases does concern me.
Michael, I don’t know the answer to this, so it’s a pure question. In the computer security world, don’t professionals accept a low level of hacking into low criticality systems, and concentrate on securing systems with higher criticality?