Senate Watch: September 25
Today marks a shift in our regular Senate and Reëlection Watch schedules. Now that polling has increased in frequency, Senate Watches will run weekly on Tuesdays, with Reëlection Watches every Saturday.
It’s been a surprisingly active ten days. Here is the current map:

As always, “Continuing” refers to the seats in Senate Classes 2 and 3, which are not up for election this cycle. And, also as always, the details are below the fold.
Only eight states in contention were polled over these past ten days, but many have been polled heavily. Here the highlights of the past two weeks, walking from the Pacific to the Atlantic:
- Nevada: A new poll from Rasmussen, giving Republican incumbent Senator Dean Heller a one point unadjusted lead over Shelly Berkley (D-Las Vegas), (plus some comments from our regular readers) make me reconsider my assessment of Nevada as “Likely Republican”. Rasmussen’s poll adjusts to a half-point in Berkley’s favor, and represents an eight-point shift to the left from Rasmussen’s last poll at the end of July. I’m not ready to call this race a “Tossup”, but I’m certainly moving the Silver State a column to the left.
- Montana: One new poll from Mason-Dixon gives Representative Denny Rehberg (R) a three point lead over Democratic incumbent Senator Jon Tester. Montana is too lightly polled, the polls keep going back and forth between the two candidates, and the polls themselves have too large a margin of error for me to find this election anything but a “Tossup”. Intraders are more inclined to believe Rehberg will win here; he is given a 57 percent likelihood (down eight from ten days ago), with Tester at 45 percent (up one). It’s a lightly-traded market, though, so I don’t give much credence to it.
- Wisconsin: What a difference a month makes. When last we looked at the Badger State two Senate Watches ago, Republican former Governor Tommy Thompson had a comfortable and steady lead over Representative Tammy Baldwin (D-Madison). Then the two national conventions came and went, and what was once a several point lead for Thompson has turned into a several point lead for Baldwin. CBS/New York Times/Quinnipiac, Marquette University, Rasmussen, NBC/Wall Street Journal/Marist, Public Policy Polling, and WeAskAmerica all saw a range of tie to a dozen points in Baldwin’s favor. A shift this large, and so close to the election, shifts Wisconsin to “Leans Democrat”. If it sticks into mid-October, we’re looking as “Likely Democrat”.
- Michigan: More evidence that Michigan is becoming safe for Democratic incumbent Senator Debbie Stabenow. Three new polls, from Baydoun/Foster, MRG, and The Detroit News, all show her ahead of Representative Pete Hoekstra (R-Zeeland). The overall noise in Michigan polling has been a range of about ten points end to end, so the current range of five to 16 points is in line with history, and good enough to leave Michigan as “Likely Democratic”. Intraders agree, giving Stabenow an 86 percent chance (up a point from last time) to Hoekstra’s 14 percent (down nine).
- Ohio: Two new polls this time, from Rasmussen and FOX News. Both firms’ house biases are approximately the same, at about 1.5 points to the right of the consensus. Rasmussen gives incumbent Senator Sherrod Brown an eight point unadjusted lead (which adjusts to about 9.5 points) over Treasurer Josh Mandel. FOX came away with Brown up by seven unadjusted points (8.5 adjusted). Last time, I thought that, given how noisy polls have been in Ohio this year, we needed more time with Brown having a comfortable lead before moving Ohio from the “Leans Democrat” column to “Likely Democrat”, and I said I’d do it if we had a solid continuation of the trend. We do, and I am. Intraders are bullish for Brown, giving him a 72 percent chance (up seven from last time) to Mandel’s 34 percent (up nine from last time). It’s a rather lightly-traded market, though, particularly for Mandel, which accounts for the sum of the two being 106 percent.
- Florida: Five polls this time, from Rasmussen, Gravis, FOX News, WeAskAmerica, and Miami Herald/Mason-Dixon. All show incumbent Senator Bill Nelson with a lead over Connie Mack, IV (R-Fort Myers), other than Gravis, who saw Mack up by one unadjusted point (which adjusts to a three point Nelson lead). Last time, I said I was nearing the point where was going to move Florida to “Likely Democrat”, and was waiting to see if this is a temporary bump or a new plateau. It’s either at its peak and about to revert to the mean, or it will be a plateau. It hasn’t quite been enough time to tell, so I’ll leave it to next week. My gut says “plateau”, though.
- Virginia: Five new polls this time, in only ten days. This round, from Rasmussen, The Washington Post, Public Policy Polling, CBS/New York Times/Quinnipiac, and FOX News, all had Democratic former Governor Tim Kaine ahead of Republican former Governor George Allen. PPP had the low number of one unadjusted point, which adjusts to one in Allen’s favor. The Washington Post had the high of eight points. I was not expecting any movement, considering how long the race has been stable at an up-the-middle tossup, but suddenly here we are. Virginia moves to “Leans Democrat”. Intraders are similarly confident in a Kaine victory, giving him a 68 percent chance of winning (up nine from ten days ago), to Allen’s 40 percent (up ten from ten days ago). With both having risen, and the total between the two of 108 percent, it’s clear that the trading is still too light to be especially meaningful.
- Massachusetts: Five polls, all since the two national conventions. Western New England University, Suffolk/7News, and WBUR/MassINC all saw significant leads for Democrat Elizabeth Warren over the Republican incumbent Senator, Scott Brown. Public Policy Polling had Warren up by two unadjusted points, which adjusts to a tie. UMass/Boston Herald found a four point lead for Brown. The overall trend is clearly in Warren’s direction. It’s enough to push the race to “Leans Democrat”. Intrade agrees; Warren is given a 59 percent chance to Brown’s 42.
It seems as if the nation lurched to the left in the past ten days. Massachusetts and Virginia went from “Tossup” to “Leans Democrat”, and Nevada moved from “Likely Republican” to “Leans Republican”, while Wisconsin jumped two columns, from “Leans Republican” to “Leans Democrat”. Our six tossups from before are whittled down to four: Connecticut, Indiana, Missouri, and Montana. Republicans’ best chance is Indiana, while Democrats’ best is probably Connecticut or Missouri. Montana is currently a real coin flip, mostly because of the paucity of data. Republican’s chance of taking over the Senate have decreased appreciably from last time. Moreover, North Dakota, which has been lightly polled for some time, may not still be “Leans Republican”; the absence of data leaves us effectively blinded there. The Intrade markets moved a decent amount: they now give Republicans about an 18 percent chance of holding at least 51 Senate seats (down a whopping 27 points in the last ten days), with a 60 percent chance of Democrats holding at least 50 seats (up an equally whopping 27 points), and still a 21 percent chance of either 48 or 49 seats.* The sum is 99 percent, which suggests that these markets are being traded heavily enough to carry some weight.
How credible do you think those market numbers are? Do you agree or disagree with my state analyses above?
*Editor’s note: Thanks to mclever for correcting me on the payout terms for the Intrade Senate markets.
Related articles
Rehberg holds 3-point lead over Tester in Senate race, Gazette poll shows
Rasmussen Polls Should Be Shunned
Senate Watch: September 15

This entry was posted by Michael Weiss on September 25, 2012 at 3:00 am, and is filed under Senate Watch. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0.You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.
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#102 written by shortchain 8 months ago
Epistemological closure isn’t an all-or-nothing affair. In extremely mild cases it may manifest as nothing more than consistency in engaging in wishful thinking. But as the disorder progresses, it becomes more and more forceful and self-reinforcing, until those who suffer from it are unreachable by those who would attempt to tell them why they are in error, because the sufferer only respects those sources who support their beliefs.
The end-game is when the sufferers from this disorder no longer believe even their own, pet sources of information or their own eyes.
We’re right at the cusp leading down into the land of the epistemological end-game.
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Electoral-vote.com is showing some interesting Senate numbers.
According to them, at present, (including seats not up for election this time) the Democrats have 53 seats in the Strongly, Likely, or Barely Democratic columns, and Republicans have 46 in Strongly, Likely, or Barely R, with one tie.
If there is a Democratic wave election (which some pundits have suddenly admitted could happen), it is possible for the Democrats to grab their 53, plus the tie (Massachusetts — yes, they’re still showing Warren only tied with Brown), plus as many as three “Barely Republican” seats (Arizona, Tennessee, Montana, all of which have the Republican up by 3% or less) — for a total of 57 seats.
Okay, that’s a fantasy, but it isn’t much more unlikely than is the thought of Romney winning the Presidential. Or, for that matter —
To take control of the Senate, Republicans would have to pull exactly the reverse trick — win all their own Strongly, Likely, and Barely races, plus the tossup, plus all four of the Democrats’ “Barely” contests (Wisconsin, Connecticut, Indiana, and Nevada — two of which have the Democrat 4% ahead, i.e., a shade farther off than any of the Republican “Barely” contests).
In other words, it would be just about as hard for the Blues to wind up with 57 seats as it would be for the Reds to get 51. It might be even harder for Republicans to pull off their goal — they’ve got to flip more seats (4 vs 3), and those seats are farther away (i.e., a greater percentage point spread). Yet the media is still talking, seriously, about the possibility of Republicans taking control of the Senate.
Why are they not talking just as seriously about the possibility of Democrats ending up with 57 seats? It must be the media’s liberal bias, I guess.
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I checked Nate’s numbers for the Senate, and he pretty much concurs with my comment #104. He estimates that Republicans getting 51 seats is just about as likely, given his probabilistic simulations, as it is for Democrats to get 56 seats (just one seat away from the 57 I posited).
It seems to me that equal attention — or at least, recognition of equal likelihood — should be give to both possibilities.
Of course, a lot can change in the next six weeks. The snapshot right now is not a prediction of what life will be like in November. But if past is prologue, the Democrats seem to be in a good position at the moment.
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#106 written by rgbact 7 months ago
I’m reminded of 2004 when many intelligent-sounding Kerry supporters and analysts were absolutely convinced that pollsters were over-sampling Republicans based on the same sort of history-based comparisons that Cost put forth.
Not really.I think back then, people didn’t think there could be as many Republicans as Democrats in a sample, cuz it hadn’t happened before. But there was an actual shift in the population where more people weren’t registering as Democrats just out of habit, so Repub voters actually had increased. This time, there doesn’t seem to be a massive shift to Dems in general, yet pollster samples invariably show more Dems in their samples.
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@rgbact, on the other hand, some demographic groups that traditionally support Democrats (for instance, blacks, Hispanics, and young people) have indeed been growing, both absolutely and as a percentage of the voting populace. Women have been registering in higher numbers. And the lead that Republicans traditionally have with the elderly has been shrinking, particularly with the Romney/Ryan plans to restructure SocSec and Medicare, and with Romney’s “47%” comments.
Further, as compared to 2010, Democrats are much more enthused this year, and Republicans much less so.
All of which implies that the balance for this year should be much closer to 2008 than to 2010.
It also explains Republican efforts to suppress the vote among exactly those demographics I listed — and additionally groups such as the handicapped (who rely on public aid) and both veterans and active servicemembers (again, reliant on public aid, and/or actual public employees, all of them — another demographic that is voting more heavily Democratic than it used to).
So a jump in the number of people self-identifying as Democrats is hardly surprising this time around. In fact, given the enthusiasm gap and the changes in demographics, the number of self-identifying Democrats may be larger this year than in 2008.
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#108 written by DrFunguy 7 months ago
@rgbact“there doesn’t seem to be a massive shift to Dems in general“What do you call this?
http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/party-identification
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#109 written by DrFunguy 7 months ago
Ok perhaps its more a massive shift from Republican to independent rather than to Dem. But I propose that is due to the avoidance of cognitive dissonance by those who will vote Obama when they have always considered themselves republican rather than people actually planning on voting (I) for which there are few options this year (Gary Johnson anyone? or how about that Green Party).
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DrFunguy,
The thing about that chart you linked — since the number of Republicans is falling rather sharply, and the number of Democrats is edging down only slightly, that means the ratio of Democrats to Republicans is increasing, and pretty rapidly too. The chart goes back all the way to October of 2008, when it was 35.8D / 30.1R, or 1.19 D for each 1 R (I’m leaving out Indies) . Today, it is 34.3D / 25.5R or 1.35 D for each R. In other words, the number of Democrats, relative to the number of Republicans, has definitely increased, by about 13%. That’s significant, and could account for all the changes in polling that Republicans are complaining about.
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#111 written by rgbact 7 months ago
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#112 written by DrFunguy 7 months ago
Yep.
You claimed that everyone except Ras is undersampling R’s. Do you have any evidence of that? Nate Silver give Ras a house bias of something like +2 R… Why should we believe you over him? I would like to know if there is anything, other that the opinion of those seeking to confirm their own hopes, to back up what on the surface seems fairly thin reasoning.
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#113 written by rgbact 7 months ago
I would like to know if there is anything, other that the opinion of those seeking to confirm their own hopes
Again,I think we’re going over the same arguments. In my 2nd response to you yesterday, I pointed to Rasmussen’s chart of the general population which indicated record levels of Republicans in August. I’ve also saw a recent chart that showed registered GOP voters outpacing Dem voters in key states vs. 2008 levels. Please reread my and others posts from yesterday and let me know if you have any fresh responses to those.
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#114 written by DrFunguy 7 months ago
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#115 written by Max 7 months ago
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#116 written by channelclemente 7 months ago
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#117 written by rgbact 7 months ago
It would be easier to evaluate the GOP’s claims about polls if every critique didn’t end with ‘Rasmussen’ as the authoritative source material
He’s the one with a handy chart of Party ID going back a few years. And his polling and actual results match up with those charts. I’m happy to look at other charts though and see if they are consistent with 2008. If anything, I suspect there is a desire by pollsters to not deviate from the herd in sampling. Rasmussen is taking a huge professional risk by not. Of course, thats how the notion of “the MSM” is created.….by journalists following the herd and relying on groupthink and avoiding independent thought.
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rgbact,
I pointed to Rasmussen’s chart of the general population which indicated record levels of Republicans in August.
Something you should know about Rasmussen’s polls…he doesn’t do mobile phones. He can’t, because all of his polls are automated, and it is illegal to run automated polls on mobile numbers. Those with mobile-only lean much more toward the Democrats. Now, I’m sure Rasmussen is trying to compensate for this in some way, but whatever method he uses will have some inherent degree of arbitrariness.
I’ve also saw a recent chart that showed registered GOP voters outpacing Dem voters in key states vs. 2008 levels.
Given that Iowa, Missouri, Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, Virginia, and Florida all had Republican primary elections when the outcome was still in doubt, while none of those states had contentious Democratic primaries, this is to be expected…for at least two reasons, one of which was already brought up. The other reason is that many Republicans who needed to register would have done so in the spring, while Democrats had more time. This doesn’t mean that there won’t end up being a Republican registration advantage come November 6, but it does mean you should take care before reading too much into it.
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#119 written by rgbact 7 months ago
It would be easier to evaluate the GOP’s claims about polls if every critique didn’t end with ‘Rasmussen’ as the authoritative source material
He’s the one with a handy chart of Party ID going back a few years. And his polling and actual results match up with those charts. I’m happy to look at other charts though and see if they are consistent with 2008. If anything, I suspect there is a desire by pollsters to not deviate from the herd in sampling. Rasmussen is taking a huge professional risk by not. Of course, thats how the notion of “the MSM” is created.….by journalists following the herd and relying on groupthink and avoiding independent thoughtThe chart by Pew defies logic. As DC stated, GOP counts are supposed to be far lower than even in 2008?! This after winning most elections recently, Romney raising tons of money, and at least until recently–GOP voters showing far more enthusiasm. Doesn’t add up.
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#122 written by Max 7 months ago
“And his polling and actual results match up with those charts.“
This statement in ONLY true if you use Ras’s results for the final week of the campaign. It is demonstrably NOT TRUE when one goes back to 6 weeks — 2 months — 3 months, etc BEFORE the election, and compare his polls to others. In THAT case Ras has a distinct GOP bias.
AS HAS BEEN STATED multiple times, Scotty removes more and more of his bias as the election looms closer and closer, so that inobservant people, and sycophants, can point to that final poll and “See, Ras was right!”.
And THEY are wrong.
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. As DC stated, GOP counts are supposed to be far lower than even in 2008?!
No, the PERCENTAGE is lower. Because of the reasons that have been outlined: demographics, enthusiasm, etc. Plus the worse GOP presidential field perhaps in all of history.
Even if the actual number of GOPers had remained constant, the actual percentage was likely to shrink because the demographics that normally vote Democratic are increasing as a percentage of the population.
So the Pew chart makes perfect sense.
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#124 written by channelclemente 7 months ago
Chambers at Unskewed Polls is basically FOS. He knows it, the GOP knows it, even Faux News knows it.
Some Proof.
http://www.businessinsider.com/unskewed-polls-party-identification-2012–9
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#125 written by rgbact 7 months ago
I gave you a chart of party ID from Gallup that went back even farther. Please explain your rationale for rejecting the Gallup data.
I didn’t reject it. Please reread my posts!I commented that Dems saw an incredible surge in September that hasn’t been evident for months. Course,taking a poll of party identification during the week of the DNC seemed highly questionable. But I generally accept their results. Course that doesn’t explain the consistent Dem oversampling all year…unless these pollsters are all Nate Silver savants and can predict that everyone will suddenly become a Democrat after the DNC.
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#126 written by channelclemente 7 months ago
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#127 written by Max 7 months ago
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#128 written by channelclemente 7 months ago
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#129 written by shortchain 7 months ago
A cigar is never just a cigar — there’s always the stench, and, until people have forgotten M. Lewinsky, the associations. Finally, as a person who does a lot of walking outdoors in an urban and suburban setting, it will be generations before the last Swisher’s Sweets wrapper decays and loses its iridescent hues.
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#130 written by channelclemente 7 months ago
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#131 written by channelclemente 7 months ago
I wonder if the NRCC sees what a minefield Akin’s race is to them. If they bleed support in to him, the knowledge of that act we metastasize across other close races in other states, particularly since he’s running against a woman. This race is just a nightmare to Rove and company as well as the NRCC. Can you imagine Tammy Baldwin tying it all together in WI and the hay Warren in Mass could make of it with regard to Brown being an Akin enabler. Wow.
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rgbact said,
I didn’t reject it. Please reread my posts!I commented that Dems saw an incredible surge in September that hasn’t been evident for months. Course,taking a poll of party identification during the week of the DNC seemed highly questionable. But I generally accept their results. Course that doesn’t explain the consistent Dem oversampling all year…unless these pollsters are all Nate Silver savants and can predict that everyone will suddenly become a Democrat after the DNC.
“…that doesn’t explain the consistent Dem oversampling all year” sounds like you’re rejecting it. When you say (I’m paraphrasing), “I don’t accept any polls other than Rasmussen and the Unskewed Polls analysis” then you’re rejecting Gallup as a pollster.
Of course, as Unskewed Polls totally and completely relies on Rasmussen weighting, you’re citing the same source twice.
There are multiple polls out there, by multiple pollsters, which show a 2–7% Obama advantage in national samples. Only Rasmussen shows a Romney advantage. Rasmussen has a 1-in-5 chance of being right (according to prediction markets and Nate Silver). That seems fair to me.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/15370/party-affiliation.aspx
Gallup polls on a schedule. There is no nefarious plot to poll during the DNC (or the RNC for that matter). Further, I don’t see this “huge Democratic spike” you’re talking about. If you flip a coin several hundred times, you’re going to get between 45% heads and 55% heads 2⁄3 of the times.
Let’s take the “Democrats” column for the last year in the Gallup polling. I get N=18, mean 30.4, sd 2.3. That means if the “true” number is 30% (this is what I believe), then when sampling this population, 19⁄20 times we get a number between 25.9 and 34.9. There’s an N=18 (close enough to 20 for me) so I expect one number outside the range. There it is: Nov 3–6 2011, 36% Democrats. So the 35% number is not completely unexpected. It may be the upslope of a spike, or it may be statistical noise. Too early to tell.
I’m not a pollster, but I’m willing to bet that this supposed “oversampling problem” is not a problem. I’m betting the pollsters are using the “including leaners” column from Gallup, and from their own numbers, making sure they seem to make sense.
I’m still waiting for some sort of coherent explanation why you reject Gallup and Pew polling. Not “it doesn’t make sense”, but something along the lines of “this question phrasing was flawed” or “they use Internet polling which has been shown to be a non-random sample” or “they don’t poll cellphones”. Those are methodological critiques. “Rasmussen is right most of the time” is not science, it’s faith, which is okay and has its place but not in this discussion.
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#133 written by Mainer 7 months ago
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@CC… I wonder if the NRCC sees what a minefield Akin’s race is to them. If
they bleed support in to him, the knowledge of that act
we metastasize across other close races in other states,Having Akin anywhere in evidence is just dreadful for the GOP. He is such a handy, well-publicized and instantly recognizable embodiment of everything that is ugly and Neanderthal about the “old” Republican mindset. And there is no way they can close the gender gap while he is around and the party is not totally disavowing him. Obama now leads by 25 points among women in Ohio, and 21 in Pennsylvania. That’s just stunning… and those numbers show what’s happening elsewhere as well.
Republicans hate having to let go of that oh-so-winnable Senate seat, and they are fearful of angering their “base” (who, let’s face it, all pretty much agree with Todd Akin’s views.) But if they come out to support him on an institutional level, that will, I think, be the catalyst that tips this over from a pretty strong wave to a crushing tsunami. Todd Akin, all by himself, can actually put the House in play on the strength of the women’s vote.
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#135 written by Mainer 7 months ago
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#136 written by Mainer 7 months ago
Fili your comments on Akin could be right but even your run down masks an even greater problem. Let us not forget that VP candidate Ryan is in some of this up to his squinty eyeballs in enabling or even leading Akin on the antiwomen legislation front lines.Some one needs to ask Mr. Ryan just how much H E supports Mr. Akin’s comments. If that happens you will probably see an even greater disparity in polling among women.
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@Mainer.. Some one needs to ask Mr. Ryan just how much H E supports Mr. Akin’s comments.
Absolutely. Good point, Mainer. And that someone is Martha Raddatz, who is moderating the VP debate. Given that Paul Ryan was Akin’s co-sponsor on that bill, it would be journalistic malpractice if she did not ask Ryan exactly how he defines “forcible rape.” I’m sure she knows the whole country is waiting for his answer to that question. -
Treme… I’m not sure about FL and PA, but here is the NRO plan for winning without OH.
(Readers will note, of course, that this plan was developed with helpful input from the Underpants Gnomes.)
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#141 written by Mainer 7 months ago
Mono I was talking to a good friend in Florida Sunday and he made an interesting observation about his fairly well to do area. As I thought most of his neighbors or folks in his area were probably Republicans I was rather surprised when I asked him if it was wall to wall Mitt campaign signs on folks lawns and he said not even close and that unless he was mistaken there are many less Mitt signs now than there were when he finally suffocated his primary opponents under piles of money. He also made the comment that he not only thought the president would win Florida but that Mitt could be dragging down other Republicans as well. My friend has been to a couple of fund raisers for other Republicans recently and it was almost a case of Mitt WHO? Is it possible this is or will happen in other areas? I know it was nothing more than a casual comment and anecdotal but I justfound it interesting. Especially coming from a Republican.
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#142 written by mclever 7 months ago
@rgbact
I think you are conflating actual voter registration figures with self-reported partisan identification. You keep saying that registered GOP voters outpaced Dem voters in key states, but that has absolutely nothing to do with self-reported partisan ID for likely voters. Actual registration percentages almost never line up with self-reported identification in polls for a variety of reasons, including the asymmetry of the election cycle when there’s an incumbent and shifting voter opinion. Many states do not have voter registration by party, so there is no baseline for comparison.
I will point out again that while actual registration numbers tend to be fairly stable (except when state SOS purges the voter roles), the self-reported numbers change frequently, even month to month from the exact same people. If people like a particular candidate, they are more likely to say that consider themselves in that candidate’s party, regardless of actual registration. If a pollster tries to weight the poll to match actual registrations, the result could dramatically mischaracterize the electorate. Your expectation that poll numbers on partisan identification should match partisan registration is a misunderstanding of what the poll is measuring.
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#143 written by WA7th 7 months ago
Though perhaps not as eloquently as some others, Sam Wang at Princeton also wrote about the “unskewed” polls today.
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#144 written by TheHeathnFarmer 7 months ago
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rgbact and mclever,
Recall this link from Pew, that both mclever and I cut-and-pasted, although we used different figures to make our point.Cliff’s Notes version: party ID is an independent variable, not a dependent variable. It’s what they’re measuring, not what they use to measure. It’s the output, not the input.The National Review and Breitbart started bleating about this in July and August. It didn’t make any sense then, and it doesn’t make any sense now. -
#146 written by rgbact 7 months ago
Boy, I can tell that Pew chart is a hit on the liberal blogs as its now been posted at least 3 separate times in this thread. Keep in mind,even Pew admits their breakout of registered voters has resulted in an average 5.5%+ bias to the Democrat as compared to actual results over the past 4 elections. Not a good record. OTOH, Rasmussen polls likely voters, and showed a consistent large ID advantage for Dems in 2008 (about equal to the actual results),but not this year.
Fox had a recent segment on polling samples with Doug Shoen and Pat Cadell (both Democrats) and they were both livid as to the poll samples and couldn’t believe firms were allowing such flawed polls to be released.
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#147 written by channelclemente 7 months ago
rg,
when Cadell went to work for the Citizens United crowd, I think his POV was established. You know Citizen’s United runs on Koch dollars. If you knew those facts, and used him as a comp as a legitimate poller, shame on you. You remember that other famous democrat, Dick Morris, Fauxcrat. If a person is legitimate, you judge it on their work product, and it’s quality. For instance, I judge Rasmussen because of their defective sampling plan and propensity to comb the numbers (Silver PROVED it).
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#148 written by channelclemente 7 months ago
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rgbact,
I posted it three times because, like Peter, you denied it three times. We get it. You categorically refuse to read anything that disagrees with your point of view.Meanwhile, I’m reading Breitbart.com and National Review.com, which of course just confirm what I already believe.However, my reading over there (you can follow the link) tells me you’re just peddling recycled toxic sludge (your assertions are all taken, near-verbatim, from the linked sites above). -
#150 written by channelclemente 7 months ago
rg,
I read..
The American ConservativeNational ReviewThe Weekly StandardReasonThe American Thinkeryou really need to widen you reading list to get the true flavor of kooky extremism that has been relabled as conservatism. Bill Buckley would turn over in his grave, and David Frum is on antipsychotics living in constant fear of reinfection.
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#151 written by Mainer 7 months ago
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#153 written by DrFunguy 7 months ago
I follow various links from RCP as well as NRO and others… its not particularly encouraging. I wish there were greater diversity of well-informed opinion in American political debates. It really is sad. I don’t consider the liberal side particularly well informed either, with rare exceptions. But in fact when I say greater diversity, I really mean there are more than two sides to complex issues. And the two ‘sides’ represented in the US are, as Will Rogers put it, two wings of the one big property party.
or as another great American said:
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#154 written by DrFunguy 7 months ago
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#155 written by ducqui 7 months ago
Dems had a registered voter advantage in 2008 because they had a very highly competitive primary in 2008. “Operation Chaos” for instance, would have registered people who would ultimately vote for McCain as being registered Democrats, at least at that point in time. Similarly, Republicans had the competitive primary this time around. Lots of people “register” for the party in order to vote in these primaries, many of which are closed and thus force registration for one or the other. By election day, I’m sure the gap will be quite narrowed despite the Repubs having the lead in these swing states in August.
That doesn’t mean, however, that all of those people that voted in the Republican primary are going to turn out for Romney. Thus, now when asked in a poll, a significant number of people are claiming to be independent when they may well be registered for one party or the other.
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#157 written by Mainer 7 months ago
In some places the Jewish vote is of varing importance and both sides have made plays for that bloc.Hell there have been times when one could have held a Republican caucus in Israel. I seem to recall reading that the Republicans think they will do well with Jewish voters because of their Israel pandering and Iran war drum beating. A good Jewish friend had an interesting take on this recently that basically comes down to Mitt could do well with some of them as long as he looks like he has an honest shot at winning but if he looks even remotely like he has no shot then the possibility exists that some of that Jewish vote they are counting on could evaporate as pragmatism kicks in and those votes go to who they perceive will have the power for the next four years. Guess one might file this as don’t piss off the one you may want to come to your aid. Not sure I buy all this but were it to come to pass it could have some down ballot effect as well or at least my friend thought so.
I really thought only FL had enough Jewish voters to be a concern but I could be wrong. But I guess if it tipped the scales in just FL it would be meaningful. Just one of those I wonder what would happen if things.
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Monotreme,
Yeah, but see the map at #139.
Oh, absolutely. That’s beyond the Hail Mary territory. I can’t imagine Obama winning Ohio and Florida, but losing New Mexico and Minnesota. It would require something huge to change the overall political landscape in a way we can’t comprehend today.
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#159 written by rgbact 7 months ago
when Cadell went to work for the Citizens United crowd, I think his POV was established. You know Citizen’s United runs on Koch dollars
Kill that messenger. Yeah, I hear he’s mean to his kids too, so screw his opinions on polling.
you really need to widen you reading list to get the true flavor of kooky extremism that has been relabled as conservatism
I guess I can’t handle “kooky extremism” like you can. You want a medal? I
actually used to regularly watch MSNBC but over the last 2 years its become so unhinged and psychotic.…I can’t bear it anymore. This site is as much liberalism as I can take.I posted it three times because, like Peter, you denied it three times. We get it. You categorically refuse to read anything that disagrees with your point of view.
Cmon, whats the deal with constantly making up false positions of mine? I didn’t “deny it”, I read most of it and responded to it. Just like your Guardian article. I didn’t “refuse to read it”. I read it, thought it sucked,and posted the
issues I had. And where did I “reject Gallup”. I didn’t. In fact, in the most recent election thread, I posted that I’ll probably be changing my prediction of a Romney win.…..due mostly to Obama’s continued performance in Gallup. So where are you getting these false ideas from my posts? -
#161 written by dawolf 7 months ago
@rgbact
I’m wondering, about this “partisan ID difference”.
Surely Dem and Rep are pretty much independent variables. Both of them should correlate more with Independent (as few will switch all the way across instantly).
So: if Dem is roughly the same (which I believe it is, I haven’t sourced this but it’s based on some thought in the back of my mind that it’s only gone down about a percent from 2008), whilst Rep has fallen big time and Ind has gone up.…
Then the issue isn’t the gap: its why so many former Republicans now prefer to call themselves independents. Which could range from an awful candidate, to a party lurching ever rightward. Neither of which point to bad polls: instead they point to accurate polls and Republicans in trouble.
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#162 written by centauri 7 months ago
dc,
A few points regarding the electoral-vote.com Senate map. Tennessee appears close because Tanenbaum is using the 2006 result (Corker 51–48 Ford) in lieu of poll data, since none have been published. In reality this should be one of the least competitive races in the country since the Democratic nominee, Mark Clayton, is an anti-gay activist who was immediately disowned by the state party. I see him joining the Republican caucus if for some reason he manages to win.
However, the Democratic caucus does have a potential 57th member in Heidi Heitkamp of North Dakota, which is colored “Likely Republican” on the strength of a single Rasmussen poll from July. Robopolling is illegal in North Dakota (and Indiana), so we may not see another public poll of this race. But Heitkamp has apparently been gaining traction by painting Rick Berg as a slumlord, and North Dakotans have a long history of splitting tickets. RCP thinks it’s a tossup, and I think it’s fair to say she has at least as much chance of winning as Richard Carmona does in Arizona.
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#163 written by dawolf 7 months ago
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#164 written by rgbact 7 months ago
MW-Fair points in #118. I assume the mobile phone issue isn’t any worse than 2008, and Rasmussen had a handle on it then. As for the primaries, yeah, thats beyond my understanding, but I see how it may jumble things.
Then the issue isn’t the gap: its why so many former Republicans now prefer to call themselves independents
Could be. Gallup just doesn’t indicate that. Their Aug.2012 GOP ID % was similar to Nov 2010. Also, if you compare to 2008, the average gap for Jan to Aug (w/ leaners) was Dems +12. For 2012, it was Dems +2.5. Additionally, they show the huge 2008 enthusiasm gap is gone. Also, the most recent actual election, the WI recall, didn’t exactly portend any huge wave of Dem enthusiasm. Yet, pollster samples indicate a similar Dem advantage in turnout as 2008.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/15370/Party-Affiliation.aspx
http://www.gallup.com/poll/156194/Democratic-Voting-Enthusiasm-Down-Sharply-2004–2008.aspx
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#165 written by shortchain 7 months ago
AW,
You might want to be careful about communicating with us. You never know, some of us (and not just dawolf, filistro, and the mushroom guy) might actually be aliens… -
#166 written by DrFunguy 7 months ago
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rgbact,
I assume the mobile phone issue isn’t any worse than 2008
Then your assumption is wrong. The percentage of households without a landline doubled from 2007 to 2010, and there was no indication that the trend was plateauing.
Then the issue isn’t the gap: its why so many former Republicans now prefer to call themselves independents
Could be. Gallup just doesn’t indicate that. Their Aug.2012 GOP ID % was similar to Nov 2010.
Exactly. Many people who voted Republican in 2010 were calling themselves independents. Do you recall anything going on in 2010 that might have led a significant number of people who used to call themselves Republicans to call themselves something else?
if you compare to 2008, the average gap for Jan to Aug (w/ leaners) was Dems +12. For 2012, it was Dems +2.5.
And I don’t think this election will end up all that comparable to 2008. This year has much more in common with 2004.
Additionally, they show the huge 2008 enthusiasm gap is gone.
Comparing summer to summer. That was a fine comparison to make in the summer, but there appears to have been an enthusiasm shift over the past two months. I didn’t see it coming, and I doubt that Gallup did, either.
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@centauri,
Thanks for the observations on the Senate map. Your observations on Tennessee could also account for why Nate’s projections drop so much for 57 as contrasted with 56 Democratic seats (and he doesn’t give North Dakota much of a chance because, as you point out, there’s too little polling data).
I think getting into the 55+ area is a real stretch, so I’m not seriously hoping for it. But since it is no less likely than Republicans taking control of the Senate, I just wonder why it receives zero press or acknowledgement of the possibility.
Actually, no, I don’t wonder. The media newsertainment loves a horserace. Romney is basically dead, and Republicans have around 1 chance in 5 of taking the Senate — but reporting that would be boring rather than breathless.
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Michael,
I expected Democratic enthusiasm to grow once the President started actively campaigning. The Republican enthusiasm in 2010 was due entirely to nonstop 24–7 campaigning from right-wing sources starting from the day of President Obama’s inauguration. Given that Obama ran a flawless campaign in 2008, it only stood to reason that once the President began to respond to the attacks, it would make a difference. I’m really surprised that pollsters and pundits didn’t expect the dynamic to change once both sides were actually in the field.
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rgbact,
The error you are making is that you’re assuming pollsters are adjusting their response numbers based on what they assume the partisan makeup will be, based on what it was previously. The pollsters themselves, however, are telling us that’s not what they’re doing. They’re reporting the partisan makeup that the respondents themselves claim to have today.
To oversimplify, the pollsters ask two questions: 1) who do you plan to vote for? and 2) what party do you identify yourself as a member of? They then report to us what they are actually finding.
What you (and the people you are relying on) then do is adjust those actual responses by what you assume the partisan makeup “really” is. In other words, you are doing precisely what you accuse the pollsters of doing.
There is a reason even Ras and Fox are showing Obama as being significantly ahead. He’s significantly ahead.
There is a reason people like the numberfiddlers you’re quoting disagree with with the results coming from all the professional pollsters. It’s because they disagree with the results that are coming from all of the professional pollsters.
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@sc & Doc… yeah, I’m the real alien around here! (Though fairly regularly a resident alien.. )
Speaking of which… it’s road trip time! Heading out tomorrow to take the current pulse of America, also catch up with friends and do my part to stimulate the US economy. (Watch for a big surge in GDP over coming weeks
)The goal is to get all the way to Mexico and do some desert hiking. Also mountain hiking in the Sierra Nevadas around Vegas, which are so beautiful this time of year. I’ll be following along on my laptop, logging in with observations whenever I have W-Fi, hopefully watching the debates with you all, and back well before the election.
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#173 written by shortchain 7 months ago
DrFunGuy,
OK, not alien in the traditional sense — but then, if you followed the link I gave, it points out that the US Military has recently created an entirely novel concept of “enemy”.As you will no doubt recall, I have a similar confusion about the concept of “clone” and “GMO”.
@filistro,
OMG, it’s an invasion — and just before a national election, too.Back to the “alien” vs “expatriate” issue: one thing I’ve always wondered about: should we regard the Dave Bowman character in “2010” (the sequel to “2001 …”) as an alien or an expatriate?
And now I return you to your regularly scheduled discussion of the future makeup of the Senate.
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#176 written by shortchain 7 months ago
Michael,
Are you implying that the two events (Romney wins and GOP takes control of Senate) are not highly correlated?Or perhaps that was just a head-fake. Let us just admit that, if Romney wins, the probability of the GOP taking control of the Senate flips from pretty improbable to pretty probable.
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#177 written by Max 7 months ago
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@Michael
Actually, it seems that the odds of Romney winning are about the same
as the odds of Republicans taking the Senate. An interesting
point to ponder.That is interesting, isn’t it? I think shortchain is right, these two possibilities are not unrelated.
Both also have about the same likelihood as Democrats having 56–57 seats in the Senate. I don’t know if that is related to the above two or not, but it seems to me that the possibility of Democratic gains in the Senate should be seeing as much press as the possibility of Romney winning. Or maybe not. Maybe it’s a Good Thing that Republican voters don’t realize how much trouble they’re in.
I haven’t found anyone doing good projections on House races, or on the makeup of state legislatures. I know the poling is a lot more difficult, and requires a level of granularity orders of magnitude beyond even Senate polling. But I’d be surprised if we don’t see significant changes from the 2010 madness, especially if Obama wins and Democrats pick up a Senate seat or two.
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shortchain,
Are you implying that the two events (Romney wins and GOP takes control of Senate) are not highly correlated?
No, but the correlation is far less than 1. A month ago, the odds of Republicans controlling the Senate were much higher than the odds of Romney winning the election.
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DC,
I haven’t found anyone doing good projections on House races, or on the makeup of state legislatures.
With good reason. It costs a lot to run a poll, and there’s an order of magnitude more competitive House seats than Senate seats. The increase in labor costs, coupled with the decrease in audience, keeps those down-ballot elections from penciling out.
But I’d be surprised if we don’t see significant changes from the 2010 madness, especially if Obama wins and Democrats pick up a Senate seat or two.
I doubt anyone but the hardest conservative partisans believe that Republicans will pick up 50+ House seats. Redistricting will probably help Republicans pick up some seats they otherwise wouldn’t have gotten, while a national shift of sentiment to the left from 2010 will probably help Democrats pick up some seats that Republicans captured in 2010. Which effect will dominate? I think the latter by a hair, but I seriously doubt we’ll be seeing Nancy Pelosi picking up the gavel in January.
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#181 written by shortchain 7 months ago
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With good reason.
As I said, yes.
Redistricting will probably help Republicans pick up some seats
they otherwise wouldn’t have gotten, while a national shift of
sentiment to the left from 2010 will probably help Democrats pick
up some seats that Republicans captured in 2010. Which effect will
dominate? I think the latter by a hair, but I seriously doubt we’ll
be seeing Nancy Pelosi picking up the gavel in January.Democrats have to pick up less than half as many seats as Republicans did two years ago in order to win back the House. Even reverting to the mean will give the Democrats a few pickups. If the public is disgusted by the antics of Republicans in the last few years, that may well be enough to overcome Republican gerrymandering. No way to tell yet though, since, as we agree, the polling just isn’t there, and isn’t likely to be.
Polling of national mood may give an indication in general of how House races are likely to go, but since this is the first election after redistricting, that’ll be less clear. But f it looks like there are shifts in the Senate, and if the President gets good margins in the swing states, that might mean something for particular House races.
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#183 written by rgbact 7 months ago
And I don’t think this election will end up all that comparable to 2008. This year has much more in common with 2004
It’ll have to be for Obama. Since 1980, Bush looks to have the greatest positive variance in total results versus results with independents, at +4%. Bush was able to actually lose indies by 1%, yet barely win with base turnout. Most polls I see have Romney winning with independents, so Obama will probably have to vastly top Bush’s +4% from base turnout.
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#184 written by turrboenvy 7 months ago
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The Democrats need to pick up 25 seats to (nominally) control the House.
They don’t want that to happen. +15 or +20 would be an ideal outcome, as would +60 or so. The latter is not going to happen.Experts are predicting about +5D or so. A wave would make it +15D or so, because of the structural limitations MW has already pointed out. Not that many seats are in play. -
#186 written by centauri 7 months ago
Does anyone have a link to the Cook PVIs for the new House districts? The Wikipedia page seems to be half-updated, half-not.
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About Michael Weiss (325 posts)
Michael is a jack of many trades, and master of a few. His varied background includes government and private businesses, both large and small. His experience in the financial services and computer industries has led him to computer security.





drfunguy,