Reëlection Watch: October 13, 2012
This week has been another time of major change. We have much more post-debate data.
What’s the latest news? Let’s dive in and see.
National Polls
In the national popular vote matchup of President Barack Obama versus Republican nominee Mitt Romney, the Republican has taken the lead for the first time ever. After the Presidential debate, Obama’s numbers have fallen and Romney’s have risen. The President’s position is now 2.5 points behind President George W. Bush’s on this date eight years ago, and 8.5 points below his position four years ago.
Going into the debate, Obama’s favorability polls all exceeded 50 percent. Since then, two of four dipped below that magic number. Romney’s favorability polls have continued to improve, and he finally broke the 50 percent ceiling on a single FOX News poll (one for which Obama also was above 50). Obama has consistently held a three to five point edge over Romney all year, and was at six points going into the debate. After the debate, his lead dropped back to three points.
The national polls, for the first time, suggest that Obama might lose the upcoming election.
As of yesterday, Intrade had Obama at 62, down seven points from last week, and 17 from two weeks ago. The markets still believe that Obama will be reëlected, but they show far less confidence than they did a couple of weeks ago.
Overall, thinks on the national level look sketchy for the President.
Early Voting
Last time I mentioned states with early in-person and absentee voting open. This time, I’m separating them out so you can see which are which. The green states are accepting absentee ballots, but not early in-person ballots, while the gold states are accepting both.

All battleground states other than Colorado and Nevada are at least taking absentee ballots; those last two open this coming week. Ohio and Iowa are the only two battleground states with open early in-person voting. North Carolina’s in-person voting opens next week.
The Electoral College
Here’s what the Electoral College looks like, based on current polling data:

With the recent exposure of Gravis Marketing, I’m dropping them from the model. It turns out that dropping them didn’t impact the results, as I was already compensating for their five-point Republican lean relative to the consensus. The timing of polls this week is especially important in determining the contour of the Romney debate bump. I outline the details in each state below.
Here are the 15 states with new data since last time, covering only those discussed around the Internet as “leans” or “tossups”, from reddest to bluest:
- Arizona hasn’t been polled recently, but I’m now starting to include Intrade markets in these descriptions (though not as input to my model). And Intraders are confident that the Grand Canyon state will go for Romney; his security shows a 90 percent chance of him winning. Arizona remains “Likely Romney”, though not by enough to drop off the list entirely.
- North Carolina was polled twice after the Presidential debate. Rasmussen saw Romney ahead, by three points. Accounting for Rasmussen’s, that puts North Carolina in Romney territory by about two points, which is consistent with the overall national post-debate shift. Of those requesting absentee ballots, 54 percent are registered Republicans. North Carolina remains a “Leans Romney” state. Intraders give Romney a 73 percent chance of carrying the Tarheel State.
- Florida got polled five times after the Presidential debate. I mentioned the Rasmussen and WeAskAmerica polls last week. In addition, the University of North Florida conducted a poll that straddled the debate, and found Obama up by four points. It’s a ten-day poll from a group without any history this cycle, so I’m not lending it any credence here. More recently, NBC/Wall Street Journal/Marist saw Obama up by one, while Tampa Bay Times/Miami Herald/Mason-Dixon, American Research Group, and Rasmussen found Romney up by seven, three, and four, respectively. All in all, it appears that Marist is the outlier. Florida still “Leans Romney”. Floridians have been able to vote for nearly two weeks. Intraders give Romney a 61 percent chance of picking up Florida’s 29 electoral votes.
- Virginia was moved to “Tossup” last week, because the two post-debate polls published then by Rasmussen and WeAskAmerica saw Romney leads. The four subsequent polls tell a conflicting story. Public Policy Polling and CBS/New York Times/Quinnipiac’s polls conducted late last week both found Obama ahead, by three and five points, respectively. NBC/Wall Street Journal/Marist’s Sunday-to-Tuesday poll came away with Romney ahead by one. And Rasmussen’s Thursday poll had Romney up by two. The conflicts leave Virginia a “Tossup”, which strongly suggests that Suffolk University is mistaken in calling the Old Dominion a certain Romney state. Virginians have been able to vote by absentee ballot for three weeks now, and Obama was ahead for about half of that time. The Intrade market has Romney slightly ahead, at 53 percent.
- Colorado was polled before the Presidential debate by Republican-funded McLaughlin/American Conservative Union, who saw a four point Romney lead. Given the provenance, timing, and lack of historical data, I don’t count this in the mix. After the debate, six firms conducted polls. American Research Group, The Denver Post/SurveyUSA, and CBS/New York Times/Quinnipiac found Romney ahead by four, one, and one point, respectively. On the other hand, the University of Denver and Rasmussen came away with Obama leads by four and one point, respectively. Other than Rasmussen, all polls were conducted over several days after the debate (SurveyUSA on the 9th and 10th). This makes it exceptionally difficult to shape the bump contour. If we lend a lot of credence to Rasmussen, the bump fully dissipated by last Sunday, but SurveyUSA suggests otherwise. Last time I moved Colorado to “Leans Obama”. This week, I’m moving Colorado back to “Tossup”. Intraders disagree with me (and Rasmussen), assigning a 54 percent chance to Romney.
- Nevada got polled after the Presidential debate by the Las Vegas Review Journal/SurveyUSA, Rasmussen, Public Policy Polling, and Suffolk/KSNV. All except SurveyUSA were conducted entirely after the debate (SurveyUSA straddled it), and all except Rasmussen saw small Obama leads. Rasmussen found the race tied. Obama’s house-bias adjusted lead from these four polls is one point, small enough to move the Silver State to “Tossup”, particularly since most of the polls were late enough for the debate bounce to dissipate. Intraders still have faith in the President here; he is trading at 70 percent.
- New Hampshire was polled Tuesday by Rasmussen, who saw the race as tied. American Research Group polled Tuesday through Thursday and found Romney up by four. While both have Republican biases, accounting for the biases still moves the Granite State into “Tossup”, and much higher on this list. On Intrade, Obama has the lead at 58 percent.
- Ohio was polled eight times after the Presidential debate. I mentioned Rasmussen and WeAskAmerica last week. The six new post-debate polls were conducted by American Research Group, CNN/Opinion Research, SurveyUSA, NBC/Wall Street Journal/Marist, and Rasmussen (again). All found Obama ahead except for ARG, who has been to the right of the consensus. ARG saw Romney ahead by one point. On balance, Ohio barely remains “Leans Obama”. Buckeyes have been able to vote for two weeks now, and absentee ballots appear to be coming in from the urban zones at a higher rate than in 2008, though thus far they still represent only three percent of the 2008 vote total. The Intrade market gives the edge to Obama, at 59 percent.
- Iowa was polled by Rasmussen, who saw a two point Obama lead last Sunday. Iowa remains “Leans Obama”, which is important since Iowans can currently vote by absentee ballot, and in person…and have been doing so; over 200,000 votes have already been cast, about 15 percent of the total 2008 vote total in Iowa. On Intrade, Obama has the lead here, with a 60 percent chance.
- Wisconsin got polled three times after the Presidential debate by Public Policy Polling, CBS/New York Times/Quinnipiac, and Rasmussen. They saw Obama ahead by two, three, and two points, respectively. It’s clear that Obama’s lead here diminished appreciably from its pre-debate highs, but by how much really? Both PPP and Quinnipiac are smeared across the post-debate week, while Rasmussen’s was conducted this past Tuesday. This suggests that Obama remains ahead by about four points among likely Badger voters. This late, a steady four point lead would be “Likely Obama”, but a four point lead that is closing is “Leans Obama” instead. For now, Wisconsin moves from “Likely Obama” to “Leans Obama”. Intraders remain confident in Obama here, trading him at 69 percent.
- Michigan was polled five times since the Presidential debate. Baydoun/Foster, EPIC-MRA, the Detroit News, and Rasmussen all saw Obama ahead, by three, three, seven, and seven points, respectively. Despite being funded by the Democrats, Baydoun/Foster has consistently been far to the right of the consensus, by an average of five points. On the other hand, EPIC-MRA has been pretty close to the consensus. Rasmussen’s poll was the most recent, on Wednesday. All of this implies that Obama’s lead in Michigan is probably closer to the Detroit News number. Michigan stays “Likely Obama”, but no longer by enough to be off the list entirely. At Intrade, Obama is trading at 81 percent here.
- Pennsylvania is back on the list this week. Polls were conducted after the Presidential debate by Siena, Susquehanna, the Philadelphia Inquirer, and Rasmussen. All saw Obama ahead, by three, two, eight, and five points, respectively. Siena was the only pollster to straddle the debate, and Rasmussen was the only one to exclude the early post-debate bump days. Susquehanna was unchanged from its results of September 18–20, when it was about seven points to the right of the consensus. Overall, then, it appears that Obama lost about two points in the Keystone State, which isn’t enough to yet move it from “Likely Obama”, though it’s clearly not as safe as it was in late September. Unsurprisingly, the markets at Intrade agree with this one, putting the President at 83 percent.
Movement this week has been pretty consistent, and it points in Romney’s favor. Colorado, Nevada, and Wisconsin shifted one column to the right. Based on the model, Obama has a probable 275 electoral votes, down 28 from last week, but still enough to win. It’s been more than three consecutive months in which Obama could lose all tossups and still stay in the White House.
Are we seeing a momentum shift, or a new plateau? The numbers I’m seeing look like the latter, since more recent numbers show a slight reversion in the pre-debate direction (though most of the boost has been sticky). For now, then, it appears that Romney’s high-water mark was October 4th and 5th. On Tuesday, both candidates have an opportunity to create a similar shift. Historically, however, the first Presidential debate has had a greater impact than subsequent debates.
Conclusion
The national polls show Romney ahead by close to two points, while the state tallys indicate a comfortable Obama lead. They can’t both be right, since there can realistically be a maximum of a point or so by which one can lose the national popular vote and still win the electoral vote. Historically, the state-by-state tallies have been more accurate than the national ones, which leads me to believe that Obama still has the edge.
If I had to predict an Electoral College result based on the model, I’d keep things close to where they have been for three months. The Tossups would go to Obama, only because they are currently a hair to his side of the middle in the polls. That prediction would give Obama 303, and Romney 235. That’s the same as it has been for a couple of months.
How do you feel about these predictions? Do you differ on them? If so, how, where, and why?
Related articles
Obama Walloped On Intrade Early In Debate
Reëlection Watch: October 6, 2012
Poll: Romney Leads Obama By 7 Points In FL
NATE SILVER: Obama Is Collapsing
Oct. 10: Is Romney Leading Right Now?
Rasmussen Poll: Romney ahead 49–47 percent in first, full post-debate survey

This entry was posted by Michael Weiss on October 13, 2012 at 3:00 am, and is filed under Reelection Watch. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0.You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.
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#2 written by mclever 8 months ago
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#3 written by Max 8 months ago
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#4 written by mclever 8 months ago
@rgbact
I’d put your hope that a majority of midwesterners get turned off by Biden’s “rudeness” under the category of wishful thinking. Speaking as a native midwesterner, folks ’round here appreciate authenticity. Yeah, Joe might have been a bit over the top, but he was who he always is, and midwesterners appreciate someone who calls it how he sees it rather than getting all mealy-mouthed and avoiding the question like Ryan did.
What I’m actually hearing from people is mixed. If they liked what Ryan was saying, then they found Biden rude. If they recognized that Ryan was lying, then they were cheering Biden on. If they weren’t sure about Ryan, they thought Biden came across as more real and less like a robot spouting memorized figures. Most people thought both men did well, but Joe seemed to know more depth about what he was saying. People here really didn’t like Ryan’s abortion answer or his evasion on the Romney budget plan. They didn’t like when Joe stumbled over his words or interrupted, and they thought he was dodging on Benghazi. But on all the other issues…
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#5 written by Mainer 8 months ago
Of course he was dodging on Benghazi. One had best know there is a serious pay back coming over there and opsec says the VP already knows stuff he can not speak to. That Republicans can never seem to grasp that says more about their national security capabilities than any thing else.
I have gone back and watched the debate and I fail to see where Biden was rude. If he was then what was Romney? This is just more of the Republican we will work with you if you will capitulate first.
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#6 written by rgbact 8 months ago
I’d put your hope that a majority of midwesterners get turned off by Biden’s “rudeness” under the category of wishful thinking.
Maybe so. I had just heard that a more insulting debate style is sort of a east coast thing. Personally, I find snark very annoying (although I admit I do it too). My one complaint about Romney was his annoying tendency to laugh at peoples answers in debate, as if they were so beneath him. I can’t imagine how an independent minded person could handle someone doing it for an entire
debate. -
#7 written by shortchain 8 months ago
rgbact,
Yeah, and in Texas, it’s not an argument unless somebody ends up stretched out on the floor, with or without a knife or bullet in him.But Joe was not that rude, unless you already thought Ryan walks on water — which people in Wisconsin don’t believe, by the way. Oh, sure, in his pretty-safe little corner of Republican heaven, they probably didn’t like Biden’s treatment of their home boy, but in Madison and Milwaukee they were cheering.
Like mclever says, cling to your belief if you like wishful thinking, but don’t expect others to believe (that’s the down-side of wishful thinking).
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#8 written by GROG 8 months ago
mclever,
“If they recognized that Ryan was lying, then they were cheering Biden on.“
Do you think they also recognized that Biden was lying? If so, then who were they cheering?
http://blog.chron.com/txpotomac/2012/10/vp-debate-fact-check-ryan-biden-both-repeatedly-stretched-the-truth/ -
#9 written by mclever 8 months ago
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mclever, I think your assessment in #4 is well-stated, and I think you’re on the mark. In general, I suspect people who agreed with one candidate or the other liked what their guy said, and didn’t like the other guy. It’s hard to tell how any undecideds took it — few of us are entirely neutral.
On the other hand, as I said on another thread, Biden did what he needed to do. He presented the Democratic ticket in a spirited and passionate way, put it into stark contrast with the Republican approach, and pushed hard on issues such as abortion, Medicare, Social Security, the “47%”, Ryan’s statement that “30% are takers”, the lack of detail in the Romney/Ryan tax proposals, and so on. He highlighted Ryan’s request for stimulus funds even while Ryan wants to pretend the stimulus wasn’t worth doing. His job was to underline these issues, and energize Democratic support, and he did that well.
I think Ryan’s job was to look credible to his own base. Not being part of that base, I can’t gauge how well he did that. I wouldn’t think his equivocation on abortion would be taken well by the far right. He is now on record as wanting to privatize Social Security and voucherize Medicare. He didn’t say anything about what he or Romney would do differently in foreign affairs. He gave no details about the tax plan his team would support. His inability to answer questions seemed pretty slippery to me. But I don’t know how his supporters would feel about these issues, and I am not at all hesitant to admit my own reactions are nakedly partisan.
I don’t think the debate is going to sway anyone. But I do think Democrats came away much more fired up.
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#11 written by shortchain 8 months ago
GROG,
Yeah, and the local “fact-checker” on CBS local affiliate also did a “both sides do it” analysis. And yet, each and every one of these “fact check” analyses of the “debate” found that Ryan was constantly and blatantly lying through his teeth, while Biden was stretching the truth, leaving out details, etc.While both sides don’t always tell the truth (who does?), if you cornered Biden, he could justify his answer and you’d get the truth. Ryan, on the other hand, when confronted, simply doubles down on his lies.
These are not equivalent.
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shortchain,
I think that is a significant point. Public “fact checkers” really like to do the “both sides do it” thing so as to not appear partisan, and so as not to turn off a large percentage of their customers. (There are a few exceptions — the clearly partisan outfits don’t mind appearing partisan, obviously, since that’s the product they’re selling. But there are about two of those.)
However, the nature of the “it” that “both sides do” differs markedly. Omitting a detail or rounding “$280 million” to “$300 million” is very different from a naked falsehood. (There was no “government takeover of health care”; Ryan’s implication that unemployment numbers are going up is simply not true; and so on.)
By the way, on the question of whether Romney embraced the idea of “let Detroit go bankrupt”, in February of 2012, he was asked specifically about those words. He didn’t object to that phrasing. He tried to claim that President Obama “finally” followed Romney’s advice, and that’s why the auto industry recovered. So in the end, he approves of what Obama did, though he disapproves of what Obama did. On the specific phrase “let Detroit go bankrupt,” Romney was clearly entirely comfortable with that. Listen and watch here:
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#13 written by Mainer 8 months ago
Yeah two days of what constitutes fact at the ole coffee shop. I missed a good part of it yesterday but apparently folks were pretty fired up for when I got there this morning there were more lap tops out on tables than I figured were in existence in our fair town. And down it went from there. The Conservos in attendance were swinging for the fence on absolute bullshit stuff from Biden and refusing to see the most brazen lies from Ryan. So at the end who won? Those that hated Joe going in now feel validated in that hatred. Those that considered Ryan a lieing piece of crap were just given more ammo. Now if the press can get their heads out of their ass we might get a fair assessment of things.……yeah right they are selling a horse race with most of the horses drugged. Got to keep it close and those ad checks rolling in regardless of what it does to the country.
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#14 written by channelclemente 8 months ago
I wonder if rudeness was even the issue. IMO, a lot of the reaction was the starkness of the contrast between the media narratives on the day to day give and take of the campaign on the positions discussed and the revelations from the candidates on their actual positions at the debate. I don’t know how many people I spoke to who upon rehearing excerpts from the debate, seemed to be hearing it almost for the first time. On the few occasions they talked about, they seemed to be digging out of a (propaganda) hole and overcoming a bad case of Stockholm Syndrome (my metaphor). A lot of the confusion came from the act of disambiguation in which words and concepts they had come to accept, were challenged by what they saw and heard. Oddly, or maybe wisely, it was Biden’s smiling and laughter that seemed to cue there re-explorations of what they had previously thought were ‘accepted facts in evidence’. I know it’s unkind, but it’s a bit like getting into an argument with “Mule‘” and going , Wow, I’ve just had an alien encounter. I apologize for laughing, and smiling.
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#17 written by Mainer 8 months ago
DC one of the most interesting things from the coffee shop review was the several times that one of our resident right either showed they had no idea what the Mitt/Ryan position was/is/may be but in at least two cases argued for the Democratic position. How does one fact check some one that is 180 degrees out of sync with reality?
As far as rudeness is concerned, chase back and find where that came from first and then right after I would be willing to bet you will find Luntz prints all over it as a mini meme of the period. It is being used too much by too many to be n accident, especially when it just doesn’t fit except in the minds of a few of the more effected by ODS.
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#18 written by Mainer 8 months ago
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GROG,
I looked at that Chron article. Here are a couple of important errors in it:Another incorrect statement by Biden on Libya came when he said, “We weren’t told they wanted more security there. We did not know they wanted more security.” As this document points out, the request for additional support had been expressed.
The antecedent of “there” is Benghazi, not Libya. The linked document says that more security was requested for Tripoli. For Benghazi, they merely asked for continuation of what they already had…which they got.
Ryan attacked President Obama for not calling the assault on U.S. ambassador Stevens a terrorist-attack: “ It took the president two weeks to acknowledge that this was a terrorist attack.” He’s mostly right: In his first statement, Obama put the attack in the context of terrorism, however, in the aftermath he only referred to it as a reaction to the video — even in his speech at the United Nations.
This is also inaccurate. Yes, Obama has brought up the video, but in the context that it was used as cover by the attackers, not that they wouldn’t have attacked had the video not been published.
On taxes, Biden said, “the middle class will pay less, and people making a million dollars or more will begin to contribute slightly more.” That’s not the truth. The president has consistently said he would roll back Bush-era tax cuts for couples making more than $250,000 and individuals making more than $200,000.
This is only false if one considers couples making between $250,000 and $1M “middle class”. And if those are the middle class, I’m apparently “lower class”. It’s odd to me to consider a portion of the top 2% of earners in this country “middle class”. Perhaps they have a different perspective in Houston.
So that leaves us with two Biden statements that were exaggerations. One was the amount of embassy security funding in Ryan’s budget, and the other was the number of troops that will be in Iraq after 2014.
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#20 written by rgbact 8 months ago
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#21 written by Armchair Warlord 8 months ago
Mike,
Biden clearly has a disagreement with Obama on Afghanistan, because he has consistently pushed for a very precipitous withdrawal and has stated there will be zero American troops left there post 2014 on previous occasions.
So in that case he’s at least consistent about misrepresenting policy.
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#22 written by dawolf 8 months ago
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#23 written by shortchain 8 months ago
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#24 written by channelclemente 8 months ago
Is it common knowledge that Issa and Chaffetz outed the CIA operation that was ongoing in Benghazi in public committee testimony this week. It is highly probable that the compound the 7 CIA operatives were in were the actual target of the assault and not Stevens at all. Daryl and his other brother Daryl have certainly, along with CNN, rectified the problem of the CIA compounds location and al Qaeda intelligence oversight. Apparently there effort to manufacture an issue even included satellite photos during their dramatic reenactment for TV. It was only during the testimony that the collective groan from the intelligence community members being questioned clued them in that maybe, just maybe they had just put any number of peoples lives in jeopardy.
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#25 written by channelclemente 8 months ago
Armchair,
Biden’s position was apparently quite nuanced. He wanted out of Afgananistan for all major combat forces, and let the evolution of Pashtunistan continue it’s historic march away from arbitrary lines in the sand drawn by the Brits. He, however, was in favor and supported leaving a quick reaction force up to about 30,000 strong as a continuing presence for an undetermined duration. The unstated purpose of that force was to continuing killing every al Qaeda associated individual intelligence ID, and perhaps ore importantly, to have a substantial force within striking distance of Pakistani nuclear fascilities should their weapons caches become compromised and accessible.
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#26 written by Armchair Warlord 8 months ago
cc,
The problem with that approach is that it would have led directly to the Taliban taking over Afghanistan. Again. Special operations in the absence of a counterinsurgency ground game (which does not necessarily have to be conducted by American troops, but the Afghan Army was certainly not ready for prime time at the time) is a method for guaranteed failure. The military didn’t support his plan during the big showdown over the way forward in Afghanistan in 2009 for a reason.
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#27 written by mostlyilurk 8 months ago
Shortchain,
That’s an interesting video of Mr. Romney. If I recall correctly, someone on this board was arguing that he had never taken that position and that the newspaper was to blame for choosing the headline for his article about how he would have handled things in the auto industry. -
#28 written by channelclemente 8 months ago
Afghanistan will inevitably devolve into a Taliban state, with warring factions as it was when we came 10 years ago. There may have been an interval in Bush’s reign in which that could have been prevented, but that window of opportunity is long gone. The Pashtun fragment might contain the Taliban, but as long as the ISI sees the Taliban as a bulwark against Indian incursion, nothing will change, IMO. As to our role, if we achieve anything, it won’t be through force of arms. That’s a fools errand. If we want to affect the outcome in Afghanistan, get India and Pakistan is settle over the Kush and Kashmir. This entire ‘counterinsurgency’ meme smacks of quackery.
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#29 written by parksie555 8 months ago
Just like 2004, it all comes down to Ohio. I am pretty confident that Romney takes both Virginia and Florida, but honestly have no idea which way Ohio goes.
I do think that the enthusiasm gap that carried the elephants to such a big win in 2010 has been resurrected by Romney’s surge. This might be just enough to to get Romney over the hump in the Buckeye State.
A coin toss election at this point, IMHO.
Biden was awful in the debate. If the other side is making campaign ads featuring your guy’s performance in a debate, it’s a pretty safe bet that he got his ass handed to him in said debate.
channelclemente: “get India and Pakistan is settle over the Kush and Kashmir”
Yeah, great. Good tip. Duh. Sort of like saying “Just hit that drive 400 yards onto the green, with enough backspin to stop just beyond the pin”.
Or as we used to say in engineering school, “if this stuff was easy, liberal arts majors would be doing it”
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#30 written by channelclemente 8 months ago
parksie,
Believe me I’m no more sanguine than you about any settlement between India and Pakistan. Not when both governments seem to exist on the basis of that nationalist posturing. It’s just if one is going to play Don Quixote, at least tilt at the right Windmill.
It will be a close election and it’s likely Biden will drive a win for Obama in Ohio. It struck me as odd, that the Politico poll online about who won the debate had Biden winning 2 to 1. What really shocked me was that 10% of the online readers of National Review had Biden winning. Other polls at NR of similar poignancy to political events usually show about a 1–2% Dem vote…probably my vote when I read it.Is Duh a term of art in engineering school?
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#31 written by Max 8 months ago
1) The internal politics of Afghanistan, absent any threat, as was the case with al Qaida, to the peace and safety of the United States, is not, and should not be, any of our freaking business!
Period.
2) The military does not have ANY responsibility for the formulation and enactment of the foreign policy of the United States, as by the Constitution, such is the sole territory of the civilian CinC. The “support” function of the Armed Forces of the US is to provide input on the feasibility of military action that may be required in the implementation of policy during planning, and if required, provide the execution of any martial role in the execution of such policy to the best of its ability.
I certainly hope that is the meaning the Armchair Warlord gave above to the phrase “military didn’t support” of “Biden’s” policy recommendations. -
#32 written by parksie555 8 months ago
“Biden will drive a win for Obama”
What a crock.
If this is the case, than riddle me this:
What vice president has not been to Ohio in over a month?
Hint: The guy that looked like he was half in the bag on the debate stage Thursday night.
The White House may well be filled with a bunch of amateurs, but they know enough to keep slow Joe out of the real battlegrounds.
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#33 written by channelclemente 8 months ago
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#34 written by parksie555 8 months ago
Just because someone is calling you on your bullshit doesn’t mean he is filled with rancor and bile.
Sorry cc, just had to chuckle when you described a Joe Biden position as “nuanced”
I’m from Delaware and have been watching Biden in action for a long time. I love Joe, but I would argue that “nuance” is not his strong suit. A great retail politician, but not a guy you want making policy.
Congrats on the Giants series win BTW.
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#36 written by Armchair Warlord 8 months ago
cc,
Yes, the same way Iraq was going to “inevitably” spiral into a sectarian bloodbath five years ago. The Afghans do not appreciate the Pakistani government thinking of their country as “strategic depth” and the proper way forward is to strengthen the Afghan government and military to the point that Pakistani influence stops at the Durand Line — an eminently achievable goal and something we are working towards right now.
Max,
The internal politics of any country with a jihad problem are in our national interest!
Furthermore, Biden’s “plan” for Afghanistan was a military impossibility — the military rightly refused to take it seriously and work it up as a course of action to be presented. If the President had decided on it regardless, against the advice of the professionals, we would have of course followed orders (or possibly seen a large number of protest resignations). So I’m not entirely sure what you’re getting at.
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#37 written by channelclemente 8 months ago
I’d say Biden’s perspective on Iraq turned out to be both nuanced and right, given the way it’s worked out so far. You may remember, split it up, and let each sect go it’s own way, Kurd, Shia, and Sunni. It seems about 2⁄3 the way there now.
I agree with you, Biden is a great retail politician, with great range. BTW, laughter can be therapeutic when your leg is being pulled, even figuratively.
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#38 written by Armchair Warlord 8 months ago
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#39 written by channelclemente 8 months ago
Armchair,
I just don’t see it that way. The Pashtun I’ve known here in the states laugh at the ‘concept’ of being an Afghan. I’d say the non Pashtun see it the way you describe, and maybe in the endgame, that’s the best solution…a north and south political rapprochment, with the ~40% who are not Pashtun in the North.
As to the military’s commitment, I have no insight or knowledge of their acceptance of such an idea at the command level. The folks that I’ve met at the grunt and lower than Captain rank thought and voiced in private that beyond killing al Qeada and the like, this was Vietnam…a conflict with a theoretical endgame that just risked their lives for an impossible reconciliation among what they viewed as competing drug lords. -
#40 written by channelclemente 8 months ago
Armchair,
the issue isn’t now, it’s tomorrow. When the current political leadership rabbits with their ill gotten gains, it devolves into a gang war among poppy lords. The Taliban will then be accepted as the arbiters of public order as they were in the 1990’s. As I recall, Mullah Omar got his start hanging thieves, rapist, and murders from a tank barrel. It’s not that I hope for such an evolution, but with the Iraq wars prosecution, we allowed the seeds of civil society to whither in Afghanistan, a sad epitaph. The shooting of that young girl in Pakistan by the Taliban just telegraphs where this is probably headed. IMO, if something changes Afghanistan’s trajectory back to the middle ages, it won’t be our so called strategy, but some unexpected occurrence that we don’t anticipate at all that I hope we have the common sense to seize upon.
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Chris,
The ending of that article is worth the price of admission:The proper way to report such a tactic is to bring to your coverage exactly the feeling that Biden brought to the debate last night: contempt and amazement. We in the press should be offended by what Romney and Ryan are doing – we should take professional offense that any politician would try to whisk such a gigantic lie past us to our audiences, and we should take patriotic offense that anyone is trying to seize the White House using such transparently childish and dishonest tactics.
…
Paul Ryan, a leader in the most aggressively and mindlessly partisan Congress in history, preaching bipartisanship? A private-equity parasite, Mitt Romney, who wants to enact a massive tax cut and pay for it without touching his own personal fortune-guaranteeing deduction, the carried-interest tax break – which keeps his own taxes below 15 percent despite incomes above $20 million?The Romney/Ryan platform makes sense, and is not laughable, in only one context: if you’re a multi-millionaire and you recognize that this is the only way to sell your agenda to mass audiences. But if you’re not one of those rooting gazillionaires, you should laugh, you should roll your eyes, and it doesn’t matter if you’re the Vice President or an ABC reporter or a toll operator. You should laugh, because this stuff is a joke, and we shouldn’t take it seriously.
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#43 written by PNE 8 months ago
I agree with everything on the map except Nevada and Florida. In Florida, if the ARG and Rasmussen trash polls are taken out as they should be, then it’s clear that it is the Mason-Dixon poll that is the real outlier. Florida is still a tossup, and I’d argue it’s the closest state as of now.
As for Nevada, polls consistently underestimate Democratic strength there. And if even Rasmussen can’t find a Romney lead there, then I think we can be pretty confident of an Obama win there.
I still think Obama will win CO and VA, and so I’m seeing either a 303–235 or a 332–206 depending on Florida.
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#45 written by Armchair Warlord 8 months ago
cc,
Some elements within the Afghan state are undoubtedly sympathetic to the Taliban — they will be destroyed or forced to submit as the Afghan government expands it’s hold. The beauty of properly-executed counterinsurgency is that it does not require a political solution — the lawful government reëstablishes law and order, the rebels become criminals and then they fade away. No reconciliation is necessary — the insurgents lose the war.
The Afghan government appears by most indications to be willing to give the above a shot rather than “rabbit with their ill-gotten gains” and abandon their country to jihadists and drug lords, and we are going to go a long way towards stiffening their spines in the future.
Actual attitudes within the military towards the war vary widely and are fundamentally irrelevant to the question. Even thise who may not agree with the mission as it is currently laid out understand their orders and work to accomplish them.
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#46 written by Max 8 months ago
AW,
Pashtun are the largest ethnic group in Afghanistan. For hundreds of years, Pashtun have been the rulers of the country. Karsai is Pashtun.
Although not all Pashtun are Taliban, almost ALL Taliban are Pashtun.
With pashtunwali in effect, ridding the world of the Taliban is ludicrous.
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#47 written by Armchair Warlord 8 months ago
cc,
Also, I hope you don’t mind if I lay into you here, but this…
As to the military’s commitment, I have no insight or knowledge of their acceptance of such an idea at the command level. The folks that I’ve met at the grunt and lower than Captain rank thought and voiced in private that beyond killing al Qeada and the like, this was Vietnam…a conflict with a theoretical endgame that just risked their lives for an impossible reconciliation among what they viewed as competing drug lords.
…is total horseshit. You’re making an insanely insulting argument by presuming to speak, as a civilian who obviously opposes the war, for the troops on the ground here, reflecting your opinion on the conflict onto them. I know and work with the troops on the ground every day. Opinions on the merit of the conflict vary widely (trending towards ambivalence — to a large extent being a soldier is a job, not an ideological calling), but people sure as hell understand the mission and what they’re supposed to be doing. And by and large they do it, and they do a damn good job.
And moreover, even as a soldier myself, I would never, ever presume to speak for my colleagues en masse.
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#48 written by channelclemente 8 months ago
Armchair,
you’re certainly entitled to your POV and interpretation, but it’s not mine. I think the opinion, and it is opinion, I’ve articulated will dominate what is voiced post engagement. I like you, have heard a wide divergence of opinion on the Afghan conflict. The most telling comments I’ve heard come from a Sargent Major SO guy who has done 8 tours. Gung Ho is an emoticon to him, he’s a cold, hard realist about what he’s done and what he’s seen done. Every conflict has it’s reflex detractors and critics, I’m not one of those…so shit can your outrage. My point is that we missed an opportunity to effect change in Afghanistan, and now are dealing with making the best of a bad situation, so be it, we will, but I’m not going to dress up a first class tactical cluster f**k just assuage the delicate feelings of anyone. The military isn’t at fault, IMO, so much as the civilian leadership that started the concurrent conflict in Iraq. But Professionalism isn’t an antidote for stupidity, and prosecuting a land war in Iraq concurrent with one in Afghanistan was stupid. BTW, you don’t know a GD thing about me, so shut your pie hole. I don’t engage in civilian BS about something as personal and tragic as war.
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#50 written by Max 8 months ago
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#51 written by Armchair Warlord 8 months ago
Max,
Yeah, they just hang out with people who do.
cc,
I reckon I know a few more guys who’ve spent more time in bad places than you. For most of them, I wouldn’t presume to speak for their opinions. And if you’re going to get butt-hurt about being called an “anti-war civilian” and not provide any kind of meaningful assertion to the contrary… well, I’m afraid you’re going to have to put up or shut up. You wanna speak for seven hundred thousand of my comrades, you better be ready to get called out.
But hey, I’m the kind of guy who believes in the merits of argument, not ad hominem assaults. So — do you actually have a response to the points I made earlier?
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#52 written by channelclemente 8 months ago
On a more local note, 538 has an article out this PM addressing a number of issues, but the AZ data is what may be revealing. It appears many of the polling operation may be significantly under representing Hispanics. A local statewide poll in AZ that, of course, interrogated Hispanics used Spanish as the language and came up with Obama leading in AZ by 2 points. It certainly isn’t a ‘game changing’ finding, but apparently points out a fault in several states with tight national numbers that aren’t serviced by polling firms, apparently, with bilingual polling reps. because ‘they aren’t in states with large Hispanic populations’.
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#53 written by channelclemente 8 months ago
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cc,
I, too, noticed the Arizona polls. They factor into Monday’s Senate Watch (it’s running on Monday to make room for Tuesday’s Presidential debate). The big unanswered question is whether Hispanics will turn out in numbers significant enough to change the outcome. If they do in Maricopa County, that’d be enough to throw out their controversial Sheriff. And could be enough to give Carmona the Senate seat. -
#55 written by Max 8 months ago
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#56 written by channelclemente 8 months ago
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#57 written by Armchair Warlord 8 months ago
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That Bloomberg article does explain a lot about what’s wrong with the Romney tax plan.
Now, was Obama correct about the net amount of revenue drop? No, but he effectively has no other number to go on, since the revenue loss offsets remain unspecified. But, more importantly, Romney’s numbers don’t add up, if we assume that he was telling the truth about the following:
– 20% rate cuts across the board
– No net increases on people earning less than $200k
– Elimination of capital gains and estate taxes
– The changes are revenue neutral
Those four are the only guideposts we have been given. At least one of them must be false. Which is it? -
#61 written by Max 8 months ago
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#63 written by Max 8 months ago
The last paragraph of the Bloomberg article:
Why don’t they release that analysis? (In-house by the campaign before the release of the plan) My guess is because the analysis doesn’t exist, and the 20 percent rate cut figure was plucked out of thin air for political reasons without regard to whether it was feasible.
And the pattern of taxes, and deductions, and half-truth continues.
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#64 written by shortchain 8 months ago
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Michael at #60 I have no clue as tax stuff and money anxiety are utter eyeglaze for me.
My remedy has always been to attain poverty and relish my exalted status as a proud 47% denizen.
Max @ # 63 yes, that is the paragraph beloved by many.
And then the more recent Bloomberg bit is evidence of the economy beginning to hit slightly greater rpm in too many data points for old Welch to question.
I’m wondering if mittles is premature spoo.
I’ve seen items indicating he’s now doing wall to wall ad buy blasts in some mega bullshit blitz but you have to wonder if the whole thing will just annoy people.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-october-11–2012/our-new-election-economy?xrs=synd_googleplus has a nice take on the role of election ad spending as an odd kind of stimulus. -
I also wonder how mittsey will top his splendid high wire bullshit surprise.
The last one probably had some blow back given the array of scribblers from many corners who tackled the preposterousness of it all.
Mittless needs to score big with the 9%, the affluent but not super rich demographic who actually puts the most effort into parsing the gibberish.
If they decide his stuff is hollow, they won’t go for it however skeptical of Obama they are.
Mittles seems to have mainly enamoured angry white men fence sitters in already red states that won’t help his electoral math much.
And the Mittward stampede to the ‘center’ is a hoot because most the chum he’s tossing out now basically sez… “I’m really just going to do all the stuff Obama is doing anyway only I’m a white guy.”
This has already been noted from many directions.
And then, does this zeal to beat the black guy, a glorified 1950s Republican, mean that all the vehement crazy tea bagger drivel was a put on or will it dawn on them that mittster never liked them anyway.
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#67 written by GROG 8 months ago
Michael,
“This is also inaccurate. Yes, Obama has brought up the video, but in the context that it was used as cover by the attackers, not that they wouldn’t have attacked had the video not been published.”
Why would Obama and Hillary Clinton have gone on Pakistani TV and denounced the video, saying the U.S. government was not involved in the making of it, had they not thought it had something to do with the attacks?
If they didn’t think the attacks had anything to do with the video, why would they have felt the need to denounce it?
Regardless (it’s not my point anyway), are you going to argue that the Republican candidates lie and Obama doesn’t? Or that they both lie but the Republicans lie worse than Obama? Is that the argument?
If so, what data and empirical evidence to you have to support such claims?
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Why would Obama and Hillary Clinton have gone on Pakistani TV and denounced the video, saying the U.S. government was not involved in the making of it, had they not thought it had something to do with the attacks?
I wasn’t aware they’d gone on Pakistani TV. Have you a link describing that?
At any rate, there were protests over the video in about 12 nations (I think that’s the count, I could be off by a few nations one way or the other). Since those nations all have official censorship, they assumed the US does as well, and that anything produced here is done with government permission and support. It makes sense to inform them that the video was not done with the knowledge or support of anyone in the US government, and in fact that most Americans find it to be offensive.
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#69 written by shortchain 8 months ago
GROG,
Pakistan is a vital component of what passes for a “counter-terrorism strategy” in the USA. As such, you don’t think it makes sense, when there are violent protests against a film made in the USA, for the USA to make an attempt to disavow the film?Why do you assume that the appearances on Pakistani TV necessarily had anything to do with Benghazi?
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Grog,
“are you going to argue that the Republican candidates lie and Obama doesn’t? Or that they both lie but the Republicans lie worse than Obama? Is that the argument?I know you asked Michael, but here’s my position: Romney’s campaign is based primarily on mendacity and vacuous aphorisms. Nearly everything he says about President Obama’s record and about the current state of the economy is provably false. Romney’s “economic plan” (or “tax plan” or whatever he’s calling it) is both dishonest and lacking in necessary detail — i.e., it is a pile of fluff wrapped around his desire to reduce his own taxes. His “qualifications” have nothing to do with running a country, except for his experience as governor, from which he says he learned nothing (“I didn’t inhale”). His foreign policy knowledge is dangerously nonexistent, and he has proven to be laughably inept.
If there are statements that President Obama makes that strike you as less than honest, I encourage you to bring them to our attention and discuss them here.
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GROG,
are you going to argue that the Republican candidates lie and Obama doesn’t? Or that they both lie but the Republicans lie worse than Obama? Is that the argument?
My position differs from dcpetterson’s somewhat. I believe that both parties are guilty of stretching the truth through rounding and omission. I have seen very few instances where Obama made a statement about Romney or the Republican Party that was patently factually false. And fewer where they were repeated after being shown to be patently factually false. I have seen many instances where Romney and Ryan have made statements about Obama…or about themselves, for that matter…that were patently factually false. And when the falsehoods are exposed, they have simply ignored it and continued making the same statements.
So, yes, Romney and Ryan have been “[lying] worse than Obama”.
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#74 written by GROG 8 months ago
Michael,
So, yes, Romney and Ryan have been “[lying] worse than Obama”.
This is a far leftwing blog which focuses almost entirely on Republicans. There is practically no discussion involving Obama and Democrats. It’s not surprising that you and the others think that Romney and Ryan lie worse than Obama.
My question stands. What empirical evidence do you have to back up your claim? -
Grog,
I think Michael answered your question about “empirical evidence” when he said:
I have seen very few instances where Obama made a statement about Romney or the Republican Party that was patently factually false. And fewer where they were repeated after being shown to be patently factually false. I have seen many instances where Romney and Ryan have made statements about Obama…or about themselves, for that matter…that were patently factually false. And when the falsehoods are exposed, they have simply ignored it and continued making the same statements.
I agree with that statement entirely. Other than instances in which Romney/Ryan had continued to repeat factually false statements even after the falsity is pointed out, as contrasted with instances in which Obama/Biden have corrected or repudiated inaccuracies when they are pointed out — and coupled with the sheer volume of clear nonsense coming out of Romney/Ryan — what sort of “empirical evidence” would you require?
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#76 written by GROG 8 months ago
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#77 written by DrFunguy 8 months ago
Pierce is eloquent today:
“… history is a river, wilder than most, with eddies and whirlpools and backwaters, and an original course to which it always seeks to return. What [I have] learned over the past twelve years is the truth in Faulkner’s observation that the past is never dead, it is not even past.“
Read more: http://www.esquire.com/features/cynic-president-obama-1112#ixzz29O9ZsojM -
Rather than “I have seen very few instances”, or “I have seen many instances”, I was hoping for actual evidence.
Let’s start with the Romney/Ryan false statements about Obama making the economy/jobs market “worse”, or “raiding” money from Medicare benefits, or about how reducing tax rates by 20% is “revenue neutral” or that “six studies” have defended his tax “plan”. Or “half” of companies that got money for developing green energy under ARRA went bankrupt. Or Romney’s claim at the debate that a new board established by the Affordable Care Act is “going to tell people ultimately what kind of treatments they can have,” or his claim that Obama “doubled the national debt” or that “up to” 20 million might lose health insurance under Obamacare.
All lies, and none of them corrected or recanted.
Oh, also that Obamacare will add to the national debt, or that taxes have been raised on the middle class, or that allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire on people who earn over $250K is a tax increase for the middle class. Or that Obama “promised” unemployment would not go above 8%, or that it would by now be below 6%. Or that Romney created “hundreds of thousands” of jobs while at Bain Capital. Or that Obama is waging a “war” on “religious freedom.” Or that Obama went on an “apology tour” and “apologized for America”.
I have now supplied you with “many instances” of Romney/Ryan lies that have not been corrected or recanted. We’ll start with that much “actual evidence” and press on if you need more.
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More uncorrected Romneylies:
“In one year, (President Obama) provided $90 billion in breaks to the green energy world … into solar and wind, to Solyndra and Fisker and Tesla and Ener1.“
Not one year, not ‘breaks,’ not Fisker or TeslaThe “48, 49 percent” that supports President Barack Obama are “people who pay no income tax.”
False. Many people who pay income tax also support Obama. Many people who pay no income tax support Romney.Romney charged that President Obama’s lawsuit in Ohio claims it is unconstitutional for Ohio to allow servicemen and women extended early voting privileges during the state’s early voting period.
False. The suit brought by the President’s campaign sought to expend voting privileges, not restrict them.Romney pretended that President Obama claimed success “is the result of government,” not “hard-working people,” when he said, “If you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.”
This is at best a gross distortion.Romney said stimulus money went to buy electric cars from Finland as a payback to Obama supporters.
No stimulus money was used, and no foreign cars were bought.” ‘Obamacare’ puts the federal government between you and your doctor.”
A simple lie, let alone that what Obamacare actually does is help pull insurance companies out of the way.Romney claimed Dow Chemical decided to build a plant in Saudi Arabia rather than Oklahoma due to the impact of environmental regulations on the supply of natural gas.
There is no evidence for thsi whatever.“Obamacare adds trillions to our deficits and to our national debt.”
A lie. The CBO says that Obamacare will reduce the national debt.When Mitt Romney was governor of Massachusetts, “we didn’t just slow the rate of growth of our government, we actually cut it.”
State spending in MA actually increased by about 5% per year while he was Governor.Romney said Barack Obama “is the only president to ever cut $500 billion from Medicare.”
Obamacare does not take money from Medicare. In fact, Medicare speding will continue to increase.“The president gave the (auto) companies to the UAW.“
Total nonsense.Romney claimed President Obama has opened up no new trade relationships with other nations.
False. There are at least three new international trade agreements under Obama.Romney claimed the National Labor Relations Board told Boeing that it couldn’t build a factory in South Carolina because South Carolina is a right-to-work state.
False. There was a complaint against Boeing which had nothing to do with South Carolina being a right-to-work state.“Only one president has ever cut Medicare for seniors in this country … Barack Obama.”
False. Other presidents have cut Medicare benefits. And Obama hasn’t. -
#80 written by GROG 8 months ago
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Grog, I’m pleased to see you didn’t dispute the Romneylies I presented. If you have evidence of any false statements from President Obama, we’ll discuss them. Otherwise, we’ll assume you have none, which sets the score at Romney several dozen to Obama zero. That would indicate that Romney lies more.
I know the right-wing meme is “Everybody lies, so what difference does it make?” I understand the idea is to excuse the lies, and even perhaps to pretend they are acceptable and maybe even somehow a good thing. I don’t buy it.
You are free to present times Obama has “lied” — particularly ones that were not corrected when pointed out, which would probably make them “errors” rather than “lies.” Romney not only doesn’t correct them, but doubles down and reinforces them. Ryan is at least as bad.
Thanks for playing. I think the point has been proved.
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#82 written by Max 8 months ago
Actually, GROG, dc met the provision of your question by presenting a number of Romney lies.
#74: “ It’s not surprising that you and the others think that Romney and Ryan lie worse than Obama.My question stands. What empirical evidence do you have to back up your claim?”
#79 is empirical evidence of those lies. Unless you can match or exceed the list dc presented, you’ve been pwned. You can “bow out” if you wish, but you do so demonstrably defeated in the quest of your own hypothesis.
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And them some.
Mittles really only believes in Mittles. That is one theory now being promulgated in op ed world. That would explain his acrobatic deftness.
He may be a weasel but he isn’t stupid. Clinging to the stinking pile of bat shit crazy he wallowed in to prevail over the various screeching primary dwarves was clearly a huge loser with regular America.
So he jettisoned the whole mess with stunning deftness catching Obama flat footed.
And those who continue to cling to batshit crazy with all their strength were too busy chortling over his imaginary defeat of that negro to notice that he did so by mind melding with the latter, shape shifting into the sparkling white version with impressive haste and no small degree of anxiety that the stunt would fly before the fence sitting contingent took time to parse his prior spew stream with several years of provenance.
It may turn out to have been a terrible miscalculation but what do you expect from old 47%?
He’s beginning to look a lot like Kerry.
And, I take some comfort in this back handed endorsement of sanity. I just wonder how the batshit crazy clan will handle it once the betrayal sinks in, a sort of hangover from their excessive guzzling of spiked kool aid whereby the principles were left in a ditch in the zeal to just win.
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#84 written by rgbact 8 months ago
DC–Of the 14 “lies” you posted. 8 I’d rate as actually true,5 as irrelevant or I don’t care enough to check, and 1 as an actual lie.The beauty of Romney’s provocative statements is that its really hard for Obama to respond to them without looking bad. I mean, what is he going to say when Romney “lies” about the $90B in breaks to greenies—-“no Mitt, it was only $40B and it was only to Solyndra and Ener1,but yes it was far more than the idiotic oil subsidies I keep whining about”. Good luck with that. So Mitt picks subjects that he knows are bad for Obama, makes provocative statements about them, and dares Obama and his “factcheckers” to spend more time discussing the issue. I dare him to tell Mitt that CBO had rated Obamacare as deficit neutral in a debate. Lets see how that goes over with the viewing public.
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#85 written by GROG 8 months ago
DC,
Is this how you want to play it? Since you apparently think Obama is so lily pure that he is incapable of lying, you want me to provide lies by Obama, then you follow with more Romney lies until we declare who the biggest liar is?
Here we go.…
Obama made this claim last Thursday:
“We got back every dime we used to rescue the financial system, but we also passed a historic law to end taxpayer-funded Wall Street bailouts for good,”
Not true. The CBO says TARP will cost the federal government $24 billion.
“The cost to the federal government of the TARP’s transactions (also referred to as the subsidy cost), including grants for mortgage programs that have not yet been made, will amount to $24 billion,”Obama: “Under Gov. Romney’s definition … Donald Trump is a small
business.”
Not true. Even Politfact rated the claim as “False”.Obama: Because of Obamacare, “over the last two years, health care premiums
have gone up — it’s true — but they’ve gone up slower than any time in the last
50 years.”
Nope. Not true. Premiums have not gone up slower than any time in the last 50 years.Obama: “I think it’s important for us to understand that the Fast and Furious
program was a field-initiated program begun under the previous
administration”
Nope. Not true. The Fast and Furious program began in October 2009. That was not during “the previous administration”.Shall I keep going?
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Grog, I’m happy to see you accepted the statements I presented from Romney as being lies. We’re agreed on that much then.
Let’s address the statements you raised:
“We got back every dime we used to rescue the financial system, but we
also passed a historic law to end taxpayer-funded Wall Street bailouts
for good,”
Not true. The CBO says TARP will cost the federal government $24 billion.
“The
cost to the federal government of the TARP’s transactions (also
referred to as the subsidy cost), including grants for mortgage programs
that have not yet been made, will amount to $24 billion,Is “rescue of the financial system” the same thing as TARP? Answer: no, it isn’t. So your response is not relevant. (Be aware that TARP was enacted under Bush, not Obama.) I am gratified that you didn’t dispute the statement about the new financial regulations.
Obama: “Under Gov. Romney’s definition … Donald Trump is a small business.”
Not true. Even Politfact rated the claim as “False”.I’m not interested in what Politifact says. You tell me why the Presidents statement is untrue — give me Gov Romney’s definition of “small business” and tell me why Trump does or doesn’t fit. Then address the larger issue — the President’s point was that when Romney claims raising tax rates on incomes over $250,000 will harm “small businesses,” Romney is being misleading at best.
Obama: Because of Obamacare, “over the last two years, health care premiums have gone up — it’s true — but they’ve gone up slower than any time in the last 50 years.”
Nope. Not true. Premiums have not gone up slower than any time in the last 50 years.Please furnish some data, then I’ll address this one.
Obama: “I think it’s important for us to understand that the Fast and Furious program was a field-initiated program begun under the previous administration”
Nope. Not true. The Fast and Furious program began in October 2009. That was not during “the previous administration”.Fast and Furious was the most recent phase of the interdiction and monitoring program that was set up under the Bush Administration. It was pretty much identical to what had gone before, and was being executed by the same people under the same rules and using the same techniques. You’re arguing about whether the Dallas Cowboys started playing football at the beginning of this season or whether they’ve been playing for a few years.Giving an ongoing operation a new name doesn’t mean it suddenly was created out of thin air.
Shall I keep going?
Sure. Maybe you can come up with some actual false statements on the level of the Romneylies I presented.
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#87 written by rgbact 8 months ago
I went thru DC’s 14 “lies” for Romney and rated 8 of them mostly true,.5 as not sure/don’t care. and 1 as an actual lie. The interesting thing about Romney’s “lies” is they are hard for Obama to correct without hurting himself. What will he say.…“Mitt you’re wrong, I only gave $50B in tax breaks to the greenies, and only to Solyndra not to Telsa, but yes its way more than the dumb oil breaks I constantly whine about.”? I double dare him to argue during the debate that Obamacare will lower the deficit. It seems Romney is trying to bait him a bit by making provocative claims.
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rgbact, since we’re using Disqus today, it will be hard to follow the thread from yesterday. I want to encourage you to hold on to your analysis from yesterday and post some details tomorrow. I’d like very much to discuss them with you, and see what yo disagreed with.
Grog apparently is of the opinion that both Obama/Biden and Romney/Ryan lie with equal ease and frequency and importance. He wanted some “evidence” of this being not true. The only way I know whether we can have any “evidence” is for us to examine statements from them both and assess their truthfulness. I presented some from Romney/Ryan and urged Grog to follow with some from Obama/Biden. We then need to assess the truthfulness of each.
So yes, I want to have that discussion.
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#89 written by rgbact 8 months ago
Well, Grog’s list looks pretty good
1) That TARP lie is one you repeat all the time too and I wish Obama would bring it up in the debate so Romney can point to how much was lost in the auto bailout.
2) Romney wasn’t saying Trump is a small business, just that many businesses get taxed like individuals (Donald Trump being an individual).
3) Its unlikely to see large price increases given the current state of the economy, so low health increases aren’t exactly shocking. Inflation is low right now.
4) Not sure of all the differences between Wide Receiver and Fast + Furious. They weren’t identical.
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While we’re having this discussion, though, and while we get deep into the weeds, let’s not lose track of the point.
Any politician is going to color and spin. That, unfortunately, seems to be inherent in political discourse. That doesn’t excuse it, and it doesn’t make pointing out the lies a useless exercise.
Romney’s campaign, however, does more than merely exaggerate on a regular basis. His lies form the basis of his campaign. Without his lies, he doesn’t have anything to run on. His lies are particularly worth pointing out, because he hasn’t got a campaign without them.
The tendency of Romney supporters to play tu quoque games when Romneylies or Ryanlies are pointed out doesn’t distract from or excuse the Romney/Ryan lies. Nor are the statements on anything like the same level.
Take one of the President’s statements. Were 100% of the funds used to rescue the financial industry repaid? Probably not. The larger question is, was the financial system worth rescuing? Was that a good thing to do? That is the policy question we should be discussing, and the question about .whether 100% of the funds have been repaid is, at most, incidental to that.
In contrast, take one of the Romneylies. He said, “Obama inherited a bad recession, and made it worse.” Romney’s campaign is based on the premise that President Obama has “worsened” economic conditions. But that is untrue — he has improved them. Without Romney’s lie, he has no actual point to make.
Or take a Romney objection to the ACA — that it will increase the deficit by “trillions.” Romney is proposing this as a reason to repeal the ACA. It’s a lie, but without the lie, the reason he is advancing to repeal the ACA vanishes.
The points that the President is making are valid (and would, therefore, be even better served) without rhetorical exaggerations (but then, we saw in the first debate what happens when facts are presented calmly and rationally — the President is chided by critics as being “lackluster” and “passive”). In contrast. The points Romney makes evaporate without the lies. Without his lies, Romney has nothing to run on. That is the difference.
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About Michael Weiss (336 posts)
Michael is a jack of many trades, and master of a few. His varied background includes government and private businesses, both large and small. His experience in the financial services and computer industries has led him to computer security.





I now predict Romney winning with 327 EV’s. I believe the national polls more than state due to less variance and higher credibility (8 current polls). I think state polls are too low about 0.75% overall for Romney, primarily in IA and WI likely.
It’ll be interesting if Midwesterners react more negatively to Biden’s rudeness. I’ve heard that Midwesterners are more sensitive to that sort of stuff and I doubt people in WI will look well on one of their own being insulted by Biden. The 7.8% UE doesn’t seem to have had a major impact, at least.