Presidential Debate 2
Tonight is the second Presidential talkfest cum “debate” managed by the Commission on Presidential Debates. Tonight’s event, hosted by Hofstra University in Hempstead, New York, will feature former Governor Mitt Romney and President Barack Obama in a town hall-style question and answer session moderated by Candy Crowley of CNN. As with all the debates, tonight’s festivities will start at 9:00 PM EDT (6:00 PM PDT) and are scheduled for 90 minutes.
There has been much criticism of the moderators in the two previous debates: in the Denver Demolition Derby (Presidential Debate #1, on October 3), PBS’ Jim Lehrer was passive to the point of allowing both candidates to overrun the rules and the time constraints. In the Kentucky Confrontation, the sole Vice Presidential debate, CBS’ Martha Raddatz was accused (primarily by conservatives) of losing control of the debate between Vice President Joe Biden and House Budget Committee Chair Paul Ryan (R-Janesville, WI). CNN commenter and Redstate pundit Erick Erickson tweeted during the debate that Raddatz was “atrocious”. In a testy exchange the next day between CNN’s Soledad O’Brien and Erickson, Erickson said Raddatz was “horrible”, to which O’Brien responded, “I think you have lost your mind”.

Nate Silver’s model predictions for the November 6 election. President Obama has dropped from an 85.7% win probability on October 2 to a 63.3% win probability on October 15. Source: fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com
Much is at stake. After the Denver Demolition Derby, Romney experienced a surge of support, erasing President Obama’s “convention bounce” and moving him into the lead over the President in some national polls. According to Nate Silver, Romney’s bounce was on the high side of normal for challengers after the first debate.
Just as the right attacked Raddatz prophylactically before the Vice-Presidential debate, both sides are attacking Crowley for public statements she has made regarding her intent to vigorously participate in the town hall as a moderator.
Time’s Mark Halperin reports that both campaigns are upset by the prospect of an aggressive Crowley. The audience will be made up of independents selected by the Gallup Organization. According to the memorandum of understanding between the campaigns and the Commission, the attendees will ask a question; each candidate will be given two minutes to respond. Then, Crowley is to moderate a discussion between the two candidates.
According to the rules set forth by the Commission (obtained by Time and quoted by Politico), Crowley is not supposed to
rephrase the question or open a new topic … ask follow-up questions … or otherwise intervene in the debate except to acknowledge the questioners from the audience or enforce the time limits, and invite candidate comments during the two-minute response period.
However, in a Politico interview, Crowley proposes that she take on a much more active role.
I understand that I’m there. I’m not a fly on the wall. We don’t want the candidates to spout talking points. That doesn’t help voters … I’m going to react organically to what’s happening.
Halperin calls the (perhaps faux) outrage of both campaigns a “rare example of political unity”.
What will happen tonight? Will Crowley’s muscular moderation approach cross the line into intrusiveness? Or does she just mean to keep the question and answer session on track? Will President Obama be able to recover from what pundits called a poor, lackluster October 3 performance? Tune in and comment here live (Disqus will be turned on again, to manage the volume of comments expected, and so older comments will be unavailable today).
Related articles
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Will Crowley Moderate Like Raddatz?
Eyeing Candy
Candy Crowley And The Presidential Debates’ Gender Trouble
Will Candy Crowley Moderate or ‘Moderate’ Tomorrow Night’s Presidential Debate?
Both Campaigns Concerned Over Candy Crowley As Debate Moderator
Both Campaigns Are Worried Debate Moderator Candy Crowley Will Act Like a Journalist

This entry was posted by Monotreme on October 16, 2012 at 3:00 am, and is filed under Reelection Watch. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0.You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.
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#702 written by DrFunguy 6 months ago
The biggest whopper by far: “The U.S. doesn’t support dictators”. Mitt Romney apparently is as clueless about the origins of ‘the greatest threat to the world’ (Iran’s revolutionary government, which came to be in reaction to the US-installed dictator) as he is of geography (Syria is Iran’s route to the sea? Libya is in the middle east?).
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#703 written by DrFunguy 6 months ago
“In a managed bankruptcy, the federal government would propel newly competitive and viable automakers, rather than seal their fate with a bailout check.”
The argument was over government financing of the bailout, not loan guarantees. You provide the money quote to which the President alluded (and Romney denied). Thanks for showing us that it was Romney telling the whopper in this case.
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@DrFunguy,
Grog knows the argument was about financing the bankruptcy, not about post-bankruptcy guarantees or supports for existing warranties. That’s why he wants to change the subject.
On the conservative side, it was also about breaking the unions. Since the restructuring was fully funded, the auto companies were able to maintain their contracts and commitments to their workers, and the unions survived along with the companies. This, I think, is what really sticks in their craw, and this is the reason they opposed any financing of the bankruptcy. But they can’t say that in public, because those union members are voters in Wisconsin and Michigan and Pennsylvania and Ohio — and in nearly every other state of the Union.
Had we done what Romney advised, a million Americans would be out of work, and millions more would have had their pensions and health care evaporate into nothing. And that is precisely what Romney was proposing.
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#705 written by DrFunguy 6 months ago
Re. the exceptionalism thread, Pierce has a few words on it today.
“The problem is that this kind of reflexive credal reassertion of our own exceptionalism — as though it were a hard and fast historical fact, rather than a profession of a kind of civic religion — can blind us to the mendacity in our midst and anesthetize us to the point at which we don’t notice the wounds to self-government until we’ve started to bleed out from them. “
Read more: http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/american-exceptionalism-14056595#ixzz2AET7ceuK -
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Excellent find, DrFunguy.
“American Exceptionalism” is an unimportant piece of fluff which is used to prevent critical thinking. It is School Spirit ramped up to dinosaurian levels. The only purpose it serves is to make people stupid.
Let’s instead look at ourselves and the real world in realistic ways.
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#708 written by GROG 6 months ago
Guys,
Thank you for your comments.
1.) I happen to think the United States is the most exceptional nation in the history of the world. I think this country has been the greatest source of good the world has ever known. I believe we are the one indispensable nation in the world. I understand statements like that get under the skin of the far left. Please understand, that is not my intent
Additionally, I don’t think these beliefs are an unimportant “piece of fluff used to prevent critical thinking”.
2.) Regarding Obama’s debate lie…
Direct quote from Obama - “You were very clear that you would not provide government assistance to the U.S. auto companies even if they went through bankruptcy.“
That is a lie. He did not say that.
Even Politifact, far from a bastion of right wing ideology, wrote — “Romney’s term “post-bankruptcy financing” can have two meanings. It can refer to money used during bankruptcy and money used right afterward.“
I think the closeness of the election and nervousness brought on by the tightening race is getting to some of you and preventing you from thinking clearly and open mindedly. -
1) Your statement about “exceptionalism” doesn’t “get under the skin” of anyone. It just seems to be a silly standard to use in choosing someone to vote for. You are, however, more than welcome to use whatever standard you like, even if it makes others giggle.
2a) Obama was talking about Romney’s desire to prevent government financing of the auto industry restructuring, and you know it. You’re too smart to think otherwise, so why do you pretend you’re not? I don’t get it.
2b) Politifact is not God. I really don’t care what they say. -
#710 written by shortchain 6 months ago
GROG,
Sorry, but when you have to carefully interpret someone’s statement to say it’s a “whopper”, you have left me behind.It may be stretching the truth. It may even be deliberately deceitful by leaving out a part of the truth. But it’s not a “whopper”. Frankly, I read the op-ed by Romney that was posted, and I agree with Obama’s interpretation at face value, so I can’t see even a hint of a lie there. Sorry.
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#711 written by mclever 6 months ago
@GROG
I don’t think your expressions of your own opinion of America’s awesomeness gets under anyone’s skin. Let me repeat that. You can think America is as awesome as you want, and no one (here) will be offended.
What gets under people’s skin is when you question someone else’s loyalty, love, and admiration of the exceptional nation that is America. You can’t know how patriotic someone else is, especially if they haven’t expressed any “hatred” of America.
And, just because someone thinks America has room for improvement doesn’t mean they don’t think the USA is a pretty damn awesome country already. I mean, after all, “We can do better,” is Romney’s campaign slogan, not Obama’s…
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#712 written by GROG 6 months ago
DC,
I have a question and a comment for you.
1) Do you think Obama has ever told a lie? If not, do you think he’s capable of lying?
2) It may make you laugh that I believe we are the most exceptional nation in the world and have been the greatest source of good the world has ever known. That’s fine, but understand that you stand with a tiny,extremist group of Americans. -
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#715 written by shortchain 6 months ago
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1) Do you think Obama has ever told a lie? If not, do you think he’s capable of lying?
I’m sure he has. I don’t know anyone who hasn’t. Being a human, he’s certainly capable of it. Why is that relevant? The examples you’ve given, however — especially this latest one about Romney and the auto restructuring — are not examples of lies.
2) It may make you laugh that I believe we are the most exceptional nation in the world and have been the greatest source of good the world has ever known.
No, that doesn’t make me laugh. You are entitled to think what you want. What makes me laugh (giggle, actually) is a) you seem to think you can judge what is going on in someone else’s head on this question (especially since what you think is going on in President Obama’s head is directly contrary to his words and actions), and b) you seem to think that a candidate’s opinion about this is a reason to vote for or against that candidate.
Personally, I’ve never given the question a moment’s worth of thought — and I never intend to — so I have no opinion one way or another. It’s like asking if America is louder than every other country, or scores more touchdowns, or is the most like a badger with hayfever. I’ve never thought about any of those, and I have no opinion. I can’t imagine why I should care. I have even more trouble imagining why I should care about someone else’s opinion on these questions.
You’ve been asked a number of times — what difference does it make? Let’s pretend, for a second, that you are correct, and that President Obama does not think America is the most absolutely wonderfullest country that ever ever ever could be. Okay. Now what? Why should we care? I don’t mean that snarky, I really don’t. Can you tell us? What practical difference does it make?
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#717 written by DrFunguy 6 months ago
Grog,
Still awaiting evidence to support what you believe about what Obama believes. At one point you said something to the effect that he points more to our failures than our successes, but you didn’t back that up in any way that I saw. Perhaps I missed it with the debate thread disrupting comments… I should also be clear that Pierce’s comments are not my own thinking on the subject, because I truly consider the whole premise (that there can be a ‘most exceptional nation in the history of the world’) too subjective and vague to have much meaning. They are provided as relevant to the discussion.
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#718 written by GROG 6 months ago
Michael,
Perhaps the problem mclever and others are having is understanding why it is important to you that the President believe, as you do, that the USA is the bestest country in the history of the universe.
I’ll explain and address the others as well, but would first give me the courtesy of explaining why you wrote “bestest” rather than “best”? -
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#721 written by GROG 6 months ago
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#722 written by Max 6 months ago
I note the Romney idea of “post-bankruptcy financing and guarantees” contains a tad touch of hypocrisy for one whose newfound conservatism bemoans “government spending”.
But it IS consistent with Romney’s history. Shredding companies, sending their jobs to China,and dumping the pension plans into the GOVERNMENT’S Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation. Transferring private plans into taxpayer supported bailouts.
Wonder how many hundreds of millions, even billions, of taxpayer dollars Romney has depended on over the 25 years of Bain’s stewardship.
STILL would like to hear GROG’s answers to the questions of #690!! I guess he is NOT answering because he DOES believe each of C-H, thus DISPROVING that he believes America IS NOT the “exceptional” country it once was.
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#724 written by GROG 6 months ago
Michael,
Because it seems to me from the way you describe it that mere ordinary superlatives aren’t superlative enough to express the sentiment you feel.
So using the grammar of a 3 year old is more superlative? I don’t follow your logic.
My superlatives, “we are the most exceptional country the world has ever know”, expresses exactly how I feel. Toddler grammar is not required to better express that. Thank you for your concern though. -
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#726 written by GROG 6 months ago
Mono,
From your Politifact link:
“Every day, PolitiFact staffers look for statements that can be checked. We comb through speeches, news stories, press releases, campaign brochures, TV ads, Facebook postings and transcripts of TV and radio interviews. Because we can’t possibly check all claims, we select the most newsworthy and significant ones.”Is that a scientific method? Is that a satisfactory method to you as a scientist in determing that Romney lies more than Obama?
I don’t see how Politifact determining that Romney lied in 45% of the claims they checked and Obama lied in 28% of claims they checked, is scientific evidence that Romney lies more than Obama. It’s only evidence that he lied in more claims that they decided to check. -
#727 written by GROG 6 months ago
Michael,
Why is it so important that the President of the United States believes that “we are the most exceptional country the world has ever know”?
I never said whether or not I think it’s important that the President believes that. What I think is important is that the President articulates that. If he doesn’t think we’re the greatest country ever, than say it. Isn’t he supposed to be all transparent? Or his he always transparent unless it may hurt him politically? -
GROG,
What I think is important is that the President articulates that.
Why? I don’t recall anyone asking him if he believes it, so it doesn’t seem that he’s hiding anything. Can you point to an instance where he was asked if he believes that “we are the most exceptional country the world has ever know”?
Or do you believe he should just volunteer random thoughts about our nation, in anticipation of whatever hot-button issues the nation of various GROGs would want to know? And, if so, how should he divine what those issues would be?
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GROG #726,
I don’t believe anyone claimed that Politifact uses a scientific method, and in any case, the request for “scientific” “proof” that “Romney lies more than Obama” wasn’t my statement.
I went back and looked for it, and as far as I can tell, you were the commenter who originally asked for scientific evidence.
I can imagine how such a scientific experiment could be done, but no matter what method was used, I’m certain that it would be liable to charges of bias. You could, for example, listen to a Presidential candidate speak; break the speech up into statements of declarative fact; and then evaluate which of those facts were “true” or “false”. But I would submit that a process like that is subject to the same biases as you appear to find in the Politifact analysis. What is a statement of declarative fact? More importantly, what is “true”?
For example, well back in this thread, we discussed whether President Obama spoke about the linkage between terrorist acts and the death of Americans in Benghazi. We have the words. The same words that you say are about 9/11/2001, when Michael or DC or I listen to them, are about Benghazi. Who is “right”? Who is “wrong”? It depends entirely on the listener, and not on the speaker. Is the speaker “lying”?
You’re essentially asking for scientific proof that I love my mother more than you love yours. Good luck designing that experiment. Not everything in this world is amenable to analysis by the scientific method — even if you’re a scientist.
Even scientists have “faiths” and “beliefs”. Would you feel better (even though it wasn’t originally my statement) if I said, “My belief is that Romney lies more than Obama”? How about “It’s my opinion, based on my read of Politifact and other sources, that Romney utters more statements that are demonstrably untrue than Obama does”? Because if you pressed me, that’s what I would say.
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I never said whether or not I think it’s important that the President believes that.
But you did ask all of us whether we think the President believes that. Why did you ask? What difference does it make whether we think the President believes that?
Michael already asked why it matters that the President articulate this particular opinion, so I won’t ask also, since I know you’ll answer him. But since you “never said whether or not I think it’s important that the President believes that,” we can assume you want to be evasive on whether you think it is important that the President believes that. You’re hiding something, by your own logic.
But why did you ask us what we think the President’s opinion is, if you are unwilling even to say whether you think the President’s opinion is important?
Thanks in advance for answering.
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Grog asked of the President,
Isn’t he supposed to be all transparent?
No. Absolutely not. I don’t know what color underwear he wears, or if it’s boxers or briefs — or thongs for that matter, or even if he goes commando. He hasn’t been “transparent” on this, and I hope to all the Gods there are that he never is.
I think a President should be “transparent” on matters that matter. I don’t think it matters if he’s “transparent” on matters that don’t matter. Do you?
Grog: Yes or no. It’s time to stop playing games. Do you think it matters whether the President believes that “we are the most exceptional country the world has ever know”? If so, why? If not, why did you bring it up?
You’ve been harping on what the president “believes”, and what everyone else thinks he“believes”. We’ve been asking, again and again, why it matters to you. It’s time for you to stop playing evasive words games, and just answer the question.
Thanks again in advance.
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#732 written by GROG 6 months ago
DC,
But you did ask all of us whether we think the President believes that. Why did you ask? What difference does it make whether we think the President believes that?
Because stating his belief would be the honest thing to do. I said that several days ago. It was the entire reason I brought it up. I answered it again yesterday. I think it’s obvious that the President “believes that”. Please don’t accuse me of “playing evasive word games”. I’ve been clear and you know it.No. Absolutely not. I don’t know what color underwear he wears, or if it’s boxers or briefs — or thongs for that matter, or even if he goes commando. He hasn’t been “transparent” on this, and I hope to all the Gods there are that he never is.
And your accusing me of playing games??? I happen to think whether or not the President of the United States thinks this is the greatest country in the world, or even a great country for that matter, is more important than what color underwear he wears. Particularly since he has been faced with questions about his “apology tour”, his 20 year friendship, fondness, and deep admiration for Rev. Wright, statement that his wife has made about the first time she’s been proud of her country, things he has written in his books, etc.Setting the record straight and declaring that he believes this is the greatest country the world has ever known is more important than the color of his underwear, in my opinion.
You (plural) make statement like that, use belittling words like “bestest” and “wonderfulist”, claim that Romney lies more than Obama while admitting you have no scientific evidence to back up, then you expect me to provide scientific evidence that Obama speaks more bad about the country than he does good. And then to top it all off, you accuse me of playing games?
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#733 written by DrFunguy 6 months ago
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Setting the record straight and declaring that he believes this is the
greatest country the world has ever known is more important than the
color of his underwear, in my opinion.Why? You refuse to answer — or even to acknowledge — that you’ve been asked, repeatedly, Why?
Okay, you have now admitted that the President’s belief on this matter is important to you. As opposed to #727 where you slyly said, “I never said whether or not I think it’s important that the President believes that.” Now you say, ” I happen to think whether or not the President of the United States thinks this is the greatest country in the world, or even a great country for that matter, is more important than what color underwear he wears.” So you do think his belief matters here. Why?
You keep saying you think it is “important” to “set the record straight”. Why? What difference does it make? Why does it matter more than the color of his underwear?
What difference does our opinion of the President’s view of this question make?
You keep implying there is some significance here, but you continue to ignore the question of what that significance is, despite repeated questions over the better part of a week.
Why should anyone care?
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#735 written by GROG 6 months ago
DC,
Okay, you have now admitted that the President’s belief on this matter is important to you. As opposed to #727 where you slyly said, “I never said whether or not I think it’s important that the President believes that.”When I was asked the question it was meant as a deflection. It had nothing to do with my original point regarding Obama’s lack of honesty and transparency.
What difference does our opinion of the President’s view of this question make?
I’ve answered it already but I’ll answer it again. We have a President who is determined to fundamentally transform the United States of America. If that same President does not think we are an especially great or exceptional country, if that same President thinks that Canada or a host of western European socialist countries are greater than us, then that concerns me because I don’t want to my country to be like them nor do I want my country to be fundamentally transformed.
Since you and the other progressives on this forum cannot bring yourselves to say that we are greatest nation in the world and have been the greatest source of good the world has ever known, I would suspect the President does not believe it either.
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#736 written by mostlyilurk 6 months ago
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#737 written by GROG 6 months ago
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#738 written by DrFunguy 6 months ago
Grog,Thank you for replying. Unlike your remark about Obama, I never asserted anything about one candidate lying more or less than another. I am neither DC nor Michael and I only sometimes agree with either. Can you give examples of the speeches or articles? I truly am curious. Until then there is nothing substantial to discuss.
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I’m still waiting for scientific evidence that Romney lies more than Obama.
Define “scientific evidence”. You’ve been given lots of evidence already, from a variety of sources, and you have rejected it. What would you view as “scientific evidence”? Or is this just a deflection? And by the way, has anyone claimed there is “scientific evidence”?
We have a President who is determined to fundamentally transform
the United States of America.You mean, Romney? Well, he’s still a candidate. But he was bragging yesterday about the “big changes” he’d bring. Name me one presidential candidate in your lifetime who hasn’t promised this. What’s wrong with change? Are you happy with the way things are, and the way they have been for the last decade or two?
If that same President does not think
we are an especially great or exceptional country, if that same
President thinks that Canada or a host of western European
socialist countries are greater than us, then that concerns me
because I don’t want to my country to be like them .…Okay, so you disagree with what you think his policies are (which, by the way, are not as you depict them). You should say that, instead of hiding it behind “exceptionalist” nonsense.
By the way, at no time, ever, did President Obama even hint that some other country is “greater than us.” I dare you to find a single quote from him in which he says that.
I’ve asked you before — are you claiming that there is not a single thing that someone else does better than we do? There is nothing at all that we can learn from anyone else? That’s not a deflection, that’s a real and honest question (which, given the pattern, you won’t answer, or even acknowledge). If there is something that someone else can do better, does that mean America is not as great a country?
nor do I want my
country to be fundamentally transformed.Then don’t vote for Romney’s “big changes”. By the way, he wants to cut regulations and services and government spending, just like that Eureopan von Mises. If you object to European ideas, then for sure don’t vote for Romney.
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#740 written by GROG 6 months ago
DrFunguy,
I realize you didn’t make any assertion regarding one candidate lying more than another. My reason for mentioning it is because one of my frustrations with this blog is the double standard among the commenters.
Why would I be required to give evidence for my assertion about how often Obama speaks positively or negatively about his country, but Michael and DC are not required to provide evidence that Romney lies more than Obama?
And DC, listing lies by Romney is not evidence that he lies more than Obama. Neither is showing that Politifact gives more False ratings to Romney than Obama. Those are evidence that Romney lies, something that I have never disputed.
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GROG,
There is no scientific study, one way or the other, on the topic. So that leaves us with less objective (though not objectively biased) sources. They’re not perfect, but that’s the best we have.I wouldn’t dare to suggest that we shouldn’t be able to raise a subject that is lacking in scientific data. I only say that we should be willing to readily admit when we’re doing so. And I already admitted it a couple of weeks ago. It’s not a double standard, since I’d expect you to admit when you’re bringing a subjective (or mildly objective) point into the discussion. And you’re free to claim that Obama tells more lies than does Romney, as long as you also admit that you claim so based entirely on your gut feeling.
For what it’s worth, I never expected to change your mind about the relative truthfulness of the candidates. I doubt DC did, either.
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@Grog
And DC, listing lies by Romney is not evidence that he lies more than
Obama.I never said it was. I presented some Romneylies and offered you the role of presenting what you thought were lies from Obama, so we could then compare. You didn’t uphold your end of the experiment.
Neither is showing that Politifact gives more False ratings to Romney than Obama.
I didn’t present the Politifact info. I have frequently been critical of Politifact, and I don’t put much stock in them.
Why would I be required to give evidence for my assertion about how often Obama speaks positively or negatively about his country,
I don’t think it’s a matter of “how many times”. You have been unable to show that he has ever made any statement whatever on whether America is the best nation there ever could be. Even one would do.
If you want to say, “He’s never said anything one way or the other, I merely choose to believe what I wish about him,” that’s fine. But you haven’t quite said that. You have said that you think you know what’s in his mind “based on what he’s said and done,” but then you haven’t told us what he’s said and done to make you think that (other than the nonsense about the “apology tour” that never happened).
I’ve also pressed on why you think the issue is important, and it has taken a long time to get anything from you on that at all. What I gather is that you think anyone who doesn’t believe American is the best nation ever is going to change it in ways you don’t like, though you haven’t outlined a connection between those two things. Nor have you explained why any change is necessarily bad.
@Michael,
For what it’s worth, I never expected to change your mind about the
relative truthfulness of the candidates. I doubt DC did, either.I concur.
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#743 written by DrFunguy 6 months ago
Grog,
No one has to do anything on this site. We engaged on this particular issue because you kept implying you had evidence of something. For which I am still waiting. Your dialogues with others are irrelevant to our discussion. You divert and dissemble and yet want to be taken seriously. I am still waiting for your sources of speeches and articles…
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By the way, Grog, in President Obama’s acceptance speech at the 2012 National Democratic Convention, he referred to “our free enterprise system, the greatest engine of growth and prosperity that the world’s ever known.” He closed his speech by saying, “we keep our eyes fixed on that distant horizon knowing that providence is with us and that we are surely blessed to be citizens of the greatest nation on earth.”
There. Satisfied? You’ll find the transcript here: http://www.npr.org/2012/09/06/160713941/transcript-president-obamas-convention-speech
It is now your turn to find a quote in which the President claims some other nation is greater than America.
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In 2011, during the argument over the debt limit, President Obama said the Debt Divide ‘Is No Way to Run the Greatest Country on Earth’
Do you want more?
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Michelle Obama (not the President, but she knows him) :
Michelle Obama praising her husband as a great dad wasn’t going to miss an opportunity to say: “Every day [the people I meet] remind me how blessed we are to live in the greatest nation on earth.”
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#748 written by GROG 6 months ago
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#749 written by GROG 6 months ago
DC,
Ok, now this is interesting. You found a quote where Obama said we’re the greatest country in the world. I hope he believes that.
Do you believe that as a librul progressive? Do you believe we’re the greatest country in the world and that we have been the greatest source of good the world has ever known? Is that in line with your progressive ideals? -
#750 written by GROG 6 months ago
Max,
C) DO you, or do you not, believe that Presidential Executive Orders that make wholesale changes in the social fabric of the country are an abuse of power and such should only be the purview of the legislative branch?
Since Executive Orders cannot attempt to make law, it’s not constitutionally valid for an Executive Order to “make wholesale changes to the social fabric of the country”.
D) Do you, or do you not, believe that the country would be better off without the legislation of the New Deal?
I believe we would be better off without it.
E) Do you, or do you not, believe that SCOTUS decisions such as Schempp (prayer in schools),Roe, Texas v Johnson (flag burning) and NFIB v Sebelius (ACA), are example of activist jurists that need to be curtailed, by constitutional amendment if necessary?
No.
F) Do you, or do you not, believe the Lily Ledbetter Act should be repealed?
No, but I wouldn’t have supported it when it passed.
G) Do you, or do you not, believe that, prior to the 1950’s, that the general attitude of a substantial number of white Americans believed that women, Indians and coloreds shoud “know their place” in the greater scheme of American society?
I do.
H) Do you, or do you not, believe that the America of today is LESS exceptional than at any other time in it’s history, and if so, please give details?
I do not believe we’re less exceptional today.
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#752 written by Max 6 months ago
GROG,
C) But Truman’s Executive Order ending segregation did just that. The conclusion being that you would wish to return to an earlier time.
D) So again, the conclusion being that you would wish to return to an earlier time.
E) So either you agree with the SCOTUS decisions given as examples or you don’t believe there is a problem with “activist jurists”?
F) You disagree with the Ledbetter Act. So the conclusion being that you would wish to return to an earlier time.
G) So it seems that you would prefer to live in an America before the passage of Ledbetter (2009), E.O. 9981 (1947) and prior to the New Deal (1933), Since the latter two were prior to 1950, and the period before 1950 was a time that you admit white Americans held misogynistic and racist views, is it not fair to conclude that you believe that at such time America was more exceptional than it to be currently?
H) Is it not contradictory that the America of today, where all these things I mention exist as part and parcel of what America is, AND since you prefer an America WITHOUT these conditions, that you believe America is AS EXCEPTIONAL as it was prior?
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#753 written by GROG 6 months ago
Max,
There are many things that I “don’t like” about America, yet I still think we are exceptional.
I don’t like that every other house in my small little town of 5,000 people looks like a meth lab. I don’t like that the biggest obstacle my company has in hiring qualified individuals is passing the drug test.
I don’t like that a record number of Americans are receiving federal disability insurance.
I don’t like it that the millions of black kids growing up trapped and fatherless in the urban ghettos of Cleveland, Detroit, St. Louis, etc, stand practically no chance in life, through no fault of their own. I don’t like that liberalism failed the northern migration of blacks over the past 90 years.
I don’t like that when I go to a function at my kids elementary school, most of the dads are dressed like they’re going to a Slayer concert rather than representing their children at their school, wearing baggy pants and all tattoed up.
There are a lot of things I don’t like about my country, but I doesn’t cause me to believe we are any less great or exceptional. I think my kids are the greatest kids in the world, but that doesn’t mean I don’t push them to improve themselves every single day.
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GROG,
What I think is really cool about this discussion is that we see exactly the same things, and want exactly the same things, for this great nation of ours. What you have said is beautiful and powerful.Speaking only as one liberal, I can say we probably only disagree about the causes and therefore the best possible solutions.The causes are mostly in the past, and are therefore interesting only as a way of helping us propose solutions.The solutions should be amenable to discussion and debate. We can then move forward with the best solutions we have available, and abandon them in time if they don’t work out.I think there are just as many small-minded and entrenched positions on one side of the divide as the other. This strident partisan screaming will ultimately destroy what is great about this country.(I won’t dignify it by calling it “rhetoric” because “rhetoric” is actually a fine thing, not deserving of the meaning heaped on it by pundits and politicians. Rhetoric, true rhetoric, is our way out of this mess.)That’s why I believe in the power of sites such as this one to help us reach a consensus that moves this great nation forward. -
#755 written by GROG 6 months ago
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#756 written by Max 6 months ago
GROG,
Glad we all can agree that we want America to be the best it can be.
One thing I note in #753, is that the things you mention are all conditions and circumstances that are happening. These are different from the policy and policy-making issues that were presented in the earlier comments.
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GROG,
That’s what I love about this site, and what I love about discussing things with you.
However, on this point…
And the fact that we probably differ on the causes throws a bit of a wrench into finding agreeable solutions.
…I respectfully disagree. All it takes is the will to say, “we’ll try my solution for a while, then if it doesn’t work, we’ll try yours for a while.” If we keep in mind we are trying to perfect what is already good. If we fervently believe that The Other Side’s suggestion is going to destroy stuff — that’s why we have legislators and an executive with veto power, and a judiciary to make sure the rules are followed. We just need to learn to trust each other.
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#758 written by Max 6 months ago
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Grog,
Do you believe that as a librul progressive? Do you believe we’re the
greatest country in the world and that we have been the greatest source of good the world has ever known? Is that in line with your
progressive ideals?Be aware — I don’t say the following as “a librul progressive”. I say it as a historian and a philosopher. I don’t pretend to know how any other “librul progressives” would feel about the question, and I am not going to pretend to answer for anyone else. My views only.
As I’ve said, I have no opinion whatever on the question you’re asking. To me, it’s a meaningless question (on the same order as, “How heavy is the sky?”).
I don’t know what “greatest country in the world” means (“great” in what sense? by what measure? are the units in pounds or hectares? which aspects are you looking at?). Nor do I know what “greatest source of good” means (define “source” and “good”; I don’t have a workable definition for either of those words in this context).
We have never had a playwright to compare to Shakespeare, nor a composer on the order of Beethoven. Does that figure into how “great” we are, or how much “good” we have “sourced”? I don’t know, and I wouldn’t know how to calculate it.
Nor do I have the first clue what difference the answer to the question would make.
I’m sorry, because I know you asked the question in all seriousness, and I don’t want to appear to be sidestepping it. But I truly have no answer, because I don’t know what the question means.
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If you haven’t seen this, you all should. I think it is brilliant. It will be eight of the most enlightening minutes you’ve ever spent considering the American condition. It is also directly applicable to the current discussion. Please give it a look.
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DC,
I truly have no answer, because I don’t know what the question means.
My sense is that the question has meaning only within the context of jingoism. Sort of like channelclemente rooting for the Giants. There’s nothing wrong with that per se, but it’s important to be able to step back from it and recognize it for what it is. Because those who are unable to do so often find themselves committing unspeakable acts based upon such beliefs.
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Michael,
You may be correct. Historically, whenever any nation or religion or race or philosophy proclaims itself “the best”, they have used that as an excuse to stomp on and conquer and subjugate any– and everyone else.
I am willing to allow Grog to explain what he means by “the greatest”, because that term clearly has no objective meaning, since it does not define the scale or the context. The greatest militarily? Scientifically? Humanitarian-ly? In some vague moral sense? I truly don’t know what sort of field of data Grog is using in his assessment of America as “the greatest.” I want to find out.
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#763 written by GROG 6 months ago
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About Monotreme (241 posts)
Monotreme is an unabashed liberal and dog lover who lives in an almost-square state in the Western U.S. He keeps a second blog related to his work as a scientist and author at 7synapses.com.







Grog,
Obama was precisely correct, and Romney was precisely wrong. Romney advised against any government financing, which is what Obama said.
Apparently, your definition of when Obama tells a “whopper” is when the President tells a large truth that Romney is lying about.
Romney said in the article, as you quoted, “The federal government should provide guarantees for post-bankruptcy financing and assure car buyers that their warranties are not at risk.”
Guarantees for post-bankruptcy financng is not the same as federal funding. Romney advised against any federal funding of the bankruptcy, and instead insisted the auto companies should go through a normal private bankruptcy. The problem of course, was that there was no private money available to finance the bankruptcy, which means that the auto companies would have had to sell off assets, break their existing contracts with their workers, and probably wouldn’t have been able to keep functioning.
Guarantees for post-bankruptcy financing mean nothing if the company no longer exists post-bankruptcy.
Obama told the absolute truth. Romney lied about his ruthless, uncaring, let Detroit go bankrupt, Jeffrey-Dahmer like villainy.