October Surprise: Romney Endorses Obama!
On Monday evening, we witnessed the third and final debate between President Obama and former Governor Romney. Perhaps the most striking thing about it was how often the Republican candidate supported the policies of the Democratic president. One might think there was little, if any, daylight between them, almost as if Romney would, in an emergency, have the President’s back.
Let’s look at a few highlights of that debate, and see where the differences lie in a few important issues. Lest I be accused of making things up, be aware that I’m taking these excerpts from the full transcript of the debate as provided by FOX News.
First, on the question of American withdrawal from Afghanistan, our longest-running war, Romney said:
Well, we’re going to be finished by 2014, and when I’m President, we’ll make sure we bring our troops out by the end of 2014. The commanders and the generals there are on track to do so. …
We’ve seen progress over the past several years. The surge has been successful and the training program is proceeding apace. There are now a large number of Afghan Security Forces, 350,000 that are ready to step in to provide security and we’re going to be able to make that transition by the end of 2014.
So our troops will come home at that point.
He certainly seemed to be declaring a date by which our troops would be gone. I suppose one could make the argument that he didn’t say it would be a good idea, just that he was promising to do it. On the matter of a setting a firm withdrawal date, Senator Rob Portman (R-OH) confirmed Monday night that Romney has “always said that it shouldn’t be publicly announced because it helps our enemies…” Presumably, however, there’s a good reason for helping our enemies in this particular case. Portman also said, “I thought when Governor Romney [agreed with President Obama], it was refreshing to a lot of undecided voters who are tired of the attacks back and forth and the politics. Look, when Governor Romney thought the President was right, he said so.” The political benefit from making voters feel better clearly matters more than helping America’s enemies, in the minds of elected Republicans.
Let’s look briefly at Israeli-Palestinian relations. Romney had this to say Monday night:
Is — are Israel and the Palestinians closer to reaching a peace agreement?
No, they haven’t had talks in two years. We have not seen the progress we need to have, and I’m convinced that with strong leadership and an effort to build a strategy based upon helping these nations reject extremism, we can see the kind of peace and prosperity the world demands.
This certainly is no ringing endorsement of anything like a two-state solution, but it just as certainly is a statement of support for some kind of negotiated peace process. On May 17 of this year, in a secretly-taped meeting with private donors, Romney expressed a belief that peace between the two was not possible, insisting Palestinians have “no interest whatsoever in establishing peace, and that the pathway to peace is almost unthinkable to accomplish.” He went on to say, “I look at the Palestinians not wanting to see peace anyway, for political purposes, committed to the destruction and elimination of Israel, and these thorny issues, and I say there’s just no way.” One must wonder then why he was critical on Monday night of there having been so little progress toward a negotiated settlement. Perhaps this, too, is what he believed voters wanted to hear.
On the matter of drone attacks in Pakistan and other places, Romney was asked Monday night by the moderator, Bob Schieffer, “ … let me ask you, Governor, because we know President Obama’s position on this, what is — what is your position on the use of drones?” The former Governor answered,
Well I believe we should use any and all means necessary to take out people who pose a threat to us and our friends around the world. And it’s widely reported that drones are being used in drone strikes, and I support that and entirely, and feel the President was right to up the usage of that technology, and believe that we should continue to use it, to continue to go after the people that represent a threat to this nation and to our friends. But let me also note that as I said earlier, we’re going to have to do more than just going after leaders and — and killing bad guys, important as that is.
I couldn’t find a prior position from Romney on the use of drones. But we have here some clear support for President Obama — undoubtedly, as Senator Portman said, because Romney is convinced the American public wants agreement rather than rancor. But interestingly, Romney seems to want something of a gentler tone, as if use of drones was going perhaps a bit too far. We shouldn’t merely be “killing bad guys.” Romney’s answer here prompted the Washington Post’s Craig Whitlock to comment, “It is striking to hear the Republican candidate advocate for a parallel, softer approach to combating terrorism while criticizing the Democrat for embracing an overly militaristic strategy.”
It seems almost as if Republicans are ready to become the party of peaceful doves, spreading love and flowers, as opposed to the strong and militant Democrats, who are all about using America’s aggressive might to spread democracy through the world.
Speaking of Pakistan, Romney was quick to defend the President on his involvement there, even making sure nothing Romney said would be inadvertently taken as criticism:
I can tell you at the same time, that we will make sure that we look at what’s happening in Pakistan, and recognize that what’s happening in Pakistan is going to have a major impact on the success in Afghanistan. And I say that because I know a lot of people that feel like we should just brush our hands and walk away.
And I don’t mean you, Mr. President, but some people in the — in our nation feel that Pakistan is being nice to us, and that we should walk away from them. But Pakistan is important to the region, to the world and to us, because Pakistan has 100 nuclear warheads and they’re rushing to build a lot more. They’ll have more than Great Britain sometime in the — in the relatively near future.
That Pakistan is a nuclear armed state and may at some future time build more nuclear weapons clearly implies, to the former Governor, that we should indeed continue the President’s course of engagement there, and not “walk away” as “a lot of people” have urged. It is very good to see the Republican candidate giving such a full-throated defense of the policies of his supposed rival.
Another area of wide agreement is to be found in discussing Egypt. Schieffer asked, “Governor Romney, I want to hear your response to that, but I would just ask you, would you have stuck with Mubarak?” This question would have given Romney a chance to differentiate himself, and to stand behind a long-time American ally, now-deposed former dictator. Romney’s answer?
No. I believe, as the president indicated, and said at the time that I supported his — his action there. … once it exploded, I felt the same as the President did, which is these freedom voices and the streets of Egypt, where the people who were speaking of our principles and the President Mubarak had done things which were unimaginable and the idea of him crushing his people was not something that we could possibly support.
Let me step back and talk about what I think our mission has to be in the Middle East and even more broadly, because our purpose is to make sure the world is more — is peaceful. We want a peaceful planet. We want people to be able to enjoy their lives and know they’re going to have a bright and prosperous future, not be at war. That’s our purpose.
Once more, not only agreeing with the President, but stressing his own conviction that America should be a force for love and peace, not a nation that should “be at war.” Speaking in February of this year, Romney was more critical of the President, and refused to call Mubarak a “dictator”. This certainly is a question as least as serious as whether President Obama called the attacks on Libya “acts of terror”, is it not? No matter. The public, apparently, wanted a softer, gentler Romney, and he was eager to oblige.
On another matter, one commentator noted yesterday,
Romney said Monday, “We don’t want another Iraq.” He said it in the context of diplomatic efforts to convince Muslims to abandon radicalism. He seems to be admitting that the Iraq War was an error. But in 2003, Romney supported the Iraq War.
The new, improved, peaceful Romney was certainly on display Monday night, as in his comments on Iran:
It is also essential for us to understand what our mission is in Iran, and that is to dissuade Iran from having a nuclear weapon through peaceful and diplomatic means. And crippling sanctions are something I called for five years ago, when I was in Israel, speaking at the Herzliya Conference. I laid out seven steps, crippling sanctions were number one. And they do work. You’re seeing it right now in the economy. It’s absolutely the right thing to do, to have crippling sanctions. I would have put them in place earlier. But it’s good that we have them.
“Through peaceful and diplomatic means.” The “crippling sanctions” that the President has put in place “do work. You’re seeing it right now in the economy. It’s absolutely the right thing to do.” There is, perhaps, an implied criticism here of President Obama for not having put the sanctions in place “five years ago” — long before he became President, not to mention the necessity of needing to get the rest of the world to participate, since one single country imposing sanctions would have no effect whatever — but the President most assuredly is doing the right thing now, and Obama has Romney’s full support.
Gone, and apparently consigned to the dustbin of history, is the old Romney, who said in March that the Iranians “have to understand that we will take military, kinetic action if they continue to pursue a nuclear option.” Now, it’s all about “peaceful and diplomatic means” and “crippling sanctions” which are certainly “working” and are “absolutely the right thing to do.”
Perhaps Romney’s new bromance can be summed up by the beginning of his answer on American relations with Israel:
Well, first of all, I want to underscore the same point the president made which is that if I’m President of the United States, when I’m President of the United States, we will stand with Israel.
It’s all about giving voters what they want, and in matters of foreign policy, voters certainly want President Obama. So Romney has dedicated himself to giving them exactly that.
And why should he not? Up until now. Romney and his Vice Presidential candidate, Paul Ryan, have been standing with Republicans who have claimed that Obama has “worsened” American’s relations with the rest of the world, that America has “lost respect” in the eyes of other nations. It seems, however, that they may have been mistaken. A BBC poll, released on Monday, surveying 22,000 people in 21 countries finds President Obama preferred over Governor Romney by 50 percent to 9 percent (only 16 percent had no opinion, showing how deeply the rest of the world cares about American politics).
Despite (or perhaps because of) Romney’s missionary work in France, the French prefer Obama over Romney by a whopping 72 percent to two percent. Canada likes the President over the Governor by a margin of 66 to nine. Even China prefers President Obama, though by a mere 28 to nine.
Romney got over 20 percent support exactly nowhere. Surprisingly, the place he did best was Kenya (!) with 18 percent to Obama’s 66 percent. Romney was preferred in precisely one nation — Pakistan would rather have him as America’s president, by a less-than-ringing endorsement of 14 to 11. (It’s worth noting, perhaps, that while Romney did not anywhere break 20 percent, nowhere did Obama fall below 20 percent but in Pakistan; the next two lowest scores were China and Malaysia, tied at 28 percent.)
Of course, foreigners don’t vote in America, but the poll puts American foreign policy under Obama into some perspective. Perhaps Governor Romney’s performance on Monday night does as well. This is not to say that the two candidates agreed on all matters. Still, the major differences seemed to be between Romney and a former Romney from weeks past. Since the President’s policies are “absolutely the right thing to do,” it would make sense to keep him in charge of running them for the next four years.
Related articles
“It’s not time to divorce Pakistan”
You: Forget Benghazi, focus on Pakistan: EX-CIA official
From chest-thumper to diplomat in one easy Romney move
Obama Keeps Romney on His Heels in Final Debate
The Dangerously Agreeable Mitt Romney — Bloomberg
Obama v Romney: around the world in 90 minutes
‘Mitt Agrees With Obama’
Obama Cites Foreign Policy Wins as Romney Mostly Agrees
Portman: Romney ‘refreshing’ in agreeing with Obama
In Foreign Policy Debate, Romney Capitulates, Agrees With Obama

This entry was posted by dcpetterson on October 24, 2012 at 3:00 am, and is filed under Uncategorized. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0.You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.
-
@filistro, excellent insights, as usual. Yes, the most noteworthy thing about Romney’s move toward the center was the suddenness of it, the way at the first debate he simply denied ever having held any of his previous positions. No, he didn’t even do that; he simply refused to acknowledge those positions even existed. (It’s as if Nicholson’s astronaut, being older and pot-bellied, can’t engage in many of the position he enjoyed in his youth. Better to pretend they don’t exist at all.)
The sudden shift in the first debate, I think, caught the President off guard. President Obama had assumed he’d be debating the crazy right-wing policies and rhetoric Romney had been proclaiming up to the day before. He wasn’t ready for a completely different set of “principles”.
Romney then thought he could continue that tactic in Round Two. But the President was ready by then, and called him on it. Further, Romney thought he could differentiate himself from President Obama simply by repeating the dishonest attacks that Republicans have been using for the last four years; either Romney actually believes them, or believed the President would cower and refuse to defend himself.
But Obama instead gave a forceful and positive presentation of his own record and policies, and called Romney out on his flip-floppery, leaving Romney to stick his foot in the trap on his attempt to politicize the Libya tragedy.
The third time around, Romney tried a new tactic, a minor variation on the first two debates. Not merely content with throwing his own positions into the disposal, and realizing he couldn’t condemn the President’s record (because that record is, in fact, pretty damn good), he instead embraced that record, perhaps thinking that the President couldn’t very well criticize Romney for saying precisely what the President was saying.
Romney’s me-too-ism can’t possibly play well in Freeperland, out in those cowboy lands where you shoot first and don’t bother with no talkin’. Of course, most of the cowboys were watching football or baseball, and are going to vote for Romney anyway, simply because they hate the new Sheriff of Rockridge.
I think that’s the sad truth. It doesn’t matter what Romney says. His supporters are mostly cynical enough to believe there is no honesty in any politician anyway. They’re not voting for him because of anything he says or doesn’t say, anything he promises or doesn’t promise. They’re voting for the party of small gubbermint. cut-my-taxes, bomb Iran!, no gays, no affirmative action, no heath care, etc. etc. They’re voting for the brand name, not for the specific product. And they’re voting against that socialite muslin from West Kanye in the White House.
-
@DC.. They’re voting for the brand name, not for the specific product.
That’s absolutely true. And as such, Romney’s debate performance on Monday wasn’t at all worrisome to them. It was reassuring. The guy publicly confirmed what they are hoping for… that (in every sense of the word) he is simply a tool. They can shoehorn him into the White House and then use him to do whatever they want, because he has no firm principles of his own and no motivation beyond ambition.Romney isn’t simply a tabula rasa, he is the ultimate in useful idiots. The neocons must just be slavering at the prospect of what they could do with this guy in power. He would make Geoge W. Bush look like a skilled and principled statesman.
In fact, thinking people everywhere should be chilled to the bone at the thought of a wafting, wispy cipher like Romney with enormous power that can be used in the hands of people who really DO have strong goals and convictions.… they want to start wars all over the world and mandate their Taliban-style “morality” here at home. With Romney in the White House they would be able to make signifigant advances in that agenda.
-
-
It has already climbed to top story in the google news aggregation function of my chrome browser.
That means it’s churning the system and news cycle like crazy. A different October surprise and now idiot Mourdock is doubling down. Bet they sure must be missing Lugar about now. This knuckle dragger won the primary.
-
#8 written by rgbact 7 months ago
I assume a certain level of naivety on national security issues for all presidential contenders. You just can’t have the same knowledge set as a president who has a massive staff briefing him constantly. And you can’t know the difficulties that will arise. Candidate Obama was full of naïve ideas like negotiating with dictators with no preconditions, closing Gitmo, getting out of Iraq in like 2 weeks. and expanding a war in Afghanistan with hopes of nation building. Then he got into office and was quickly set straight on how the world really worked, I presume Mitt will also be shocked by a few things once he takes office, but he seem far more grounded than Obama was.
As for the BBC poll.…I’d rather have a president that Americans approve of, not Europeans or Kenyans. Maybe Obama can run for world celebrity in chief–president of the US is clearly beneath him.
-
I assume a certain level of naivety on national security issues for all presidential contenders.
Certainly true. Which perhaps is why Romney and friends shouldn’t go around accusing the President of being “weak.“
Candidate Obama was full of naïve ideas like negotiating with
dictators with no preconditions, closing Gitmo, getting out of
Iraq in like 2 weeks. and expanding a war in Afghanistan with hopes of
nation building.It is surprising how wrong you got most of that. President Obama has indeed agreed to meet with nearly everyone. He has ordered Gitmo closed (he did that during his first week in office) — it is not closed, not because of any “foreign affairs” considerations, but because Republicans in Congress refuse to allow it.
Candidate Obama never said we’d be out of Iraq “in like 2 weeks” — he laid out a timetable and we stuck very closely to it. In fact, many in his own party, even during the campaign, criticized him for supposedly going too slow. As far as Afghanistan, Candidate Obama never once said anything about “nation building.” Not once. You must have pulled that out of your FOX.
I presume Mitt will also be shocked by a few things once he takes office, but he seem far more grounded than Obama was.
“Grounded”? Is that what you call pandering and flip-floppery? But no, I don’t think Mitt would be shocked, whether he ever takes any other office or not. He doesn’t appear to know anything whatever about foreign relations, and doesn’t seem to be at all interested. I don’t think he’ll ever bother to learn anything about any other country except where to go to visit his money.
-
#11 written by fopplssiegeparty 7 months ago
-
@rgb… bless you for being a good soldier and sticking up for your guy. I admire you for that.
But… I really don’t think it’s Romney’s “naïveté on national security issues” that is the big problem here. It’s his total willingness to reverse his own positions without hesitation or apology.
Mitt Romney’s outlook on political matters and foreign policy, as expressed in Monday’s debate, can be best summarized in the immortal words of one of the great thinkers of the modern era:
- Those are my principles, and if you don’t like them… well, I have others.
—Groucho Marx
-
#13 written by rgbact 7 months ago
Certainly true. Which perhaps is why Romney and friends shouldn’t go around accusing the President of being “weak.“
Didn’t you just post an article about how Romney is endorsing him? Which is it?
it is not closed, not because of any “foreign affairs” considerations, but because Republicans in Congress refuse to
allow it.
Do we have to constantly remind you how much control Democrats had Obama’s first 2 years. If Romney had those majorities and was still blaming Dems for things.…I would be utterly ashamed.
What does “grounded” mean?
More based in reality. Not naïve. -
Oh no.. Mourdock is doubling down with hilarious pig headed stubbornness.
Just when the waffling undecideds were leaning mittinsward, this goob rises from whatever zombie swamp to insist that a rape baby is gawd’s speshul gift.And this thing is staying pinned to the top of the goog news page. It is like some strange gravitas tug dragging hapless mittins into its terrifying rip current.
Yup, they gotta be missing Lugar about now. -
#16 written by DrFunguy 7 months ago
@rgb I think it is you needing the reminder: the filibuster-proof majority actually lasted less than five months
-
#17 written by DrFunguy 7 months ago
If you need reminding that the republicans invoked cloture a record amount the during past two terms, here it is.
-
#18 written by Rose 7 months ago
-
-
#20 written by Max 7 months ago
-
#21 written by channelclemente 7 months ago
-
@Rose, Limbaugh is pretty desperate, isn’t he?
I do wonder what these guys are gonna do when President Obama is resoundingly re-elected. The fun part is that the states which are most likely to decide it — Ohio, Michigan, Virgina, and Florida, and New Hampshire — are all in the eastern time zone. President Obama just needs any two of the first three — or just Florida. If Obama wins even just one of the five states I listed — even just lowly New Hampshire — it makes things mighty hard for Romney to win. By 8:00 Eastern, when the polls close, it could be over.
The networks won’t call the national election until the polls close on the West Coast. But while you’re watching the news that night, you’re going to notice a change in the attitude of all the commentators, on any and every station, as soon as the President is declared the winner in any of the states I listed.
-
That “majority” reminder needs to include the fact that ACA was not passed in 2009. Why? Because Obama DID NOT have that majority!
Max, its hopeless. Republicans truly believe 1) Democrats had filibuster-proof majorities in Congress from Nov of 2008 until Nov of 2010, 2) Obama got everything he wanted during that period, and 3) anything Obama didn’t get was either because he didn’t want it, or he is incompetent.
No facts you present will sway them from their fantasy world.
Oh and plus, Obama caused the Great Recession, and the current deficit, and all that is 100% attributable to him. And the stimulus created no jobs, and Obamacare will raise taxes and increase the deficit, and also it is possible to lower taxes, increase military spending, and balance the budget.
-
#24 written by channelclemente 7 months ago
“Sen. Kelly Ayotte (R-N.H.), who was supposed to appear with Mourdock at a campaign event on Wednesday, canceled her appearance.
“Senator Ayotte’s trip to Indiana is canceled, and she is in New Hampshire today,” Ayotte’s office said in a statement. “She disagrees with Treasurer Mourdock’s comments, which do not represent her views.”
The rats are scattering.
-
#25 written by Armchair Warlord 7 months ago
-
Now the top story is even better.
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/2012–10-24/us-sues-bank-of-america-for-1b-for-mortgage-fraud
This will tend to mollify the financial progressives who have found Obama’s fed to be coddling bankers and it serves to remind people of the hazards of the sort of vampire capitalism that Romney helped to usher in.
-
CC, that is the best issues quiz/poll I have seen in my life, bar none. Completely fair, and with the most number of possible responses. Love it.
I’m closes to Jill Stein (Green) with a 93, followed by Barack Obama with an 84. No surprise there. 97% with the Democratic Party, 89% with Greens. 2% with Republicans. 4% with Romney (no telling which Romney, however).
-
#29 written by channelclemente 7 months ago
-
#30 written by channelclemente 7 months ago
-
#31 written by mclever 7 months ago
-
#32 written by fopplssiegeparty 7 months ago
-
DrFunguy,
For what it’s worth, Republicans point out that the reason they invoke cloture so much is that Reid prohibits them from proposing amendments. Reid does so to protect Democrats from being put in the “voted for it before voting against it” position.In other words, it’s an arms race.
Speaking of which, how long after the next Republican Senate is sworn in do you think it will take for the Senate rules to change to simple majority for everything?
-
DC,
The fun part is that the states which are most likely to decide it — Ohio, Michigan, Virgina, and Florida, and New Hampshire — are all in the eastern time zone.
Not as much fun as you might think. Ohio’s the most likely tipping point state, and it may well be close enough that we won’t hear that one called until very late. Could even be like Florida 2000, where it doesn’t get called for weeks.
On the other hand, if Florida ends up being too close to call for much of the night, then Ohio will be more likely to be an Obama state, and it’ll be game over right then and there.
-
#35 written by WA7th 7 months ago
Speaking of which, how long after the next Republican Senate is sworn in do you think it will take for the Senate rules to change to simple majority for everything?
Not that he actually will, but Reid promised to do the same thing.
-
#36 written by channelclemente 7 months ago
Michael,
I have a ‘canary in the coal mine’ hypothesis. If the internal polls of the GOP start to trend against them, you are going to see one of the biggest, most self assured boast fests out of them ever heard. They will completely abandon any pretense at issues and go full in on things like who will fill what roll in their new administration.
-
-
-
#39 written by channelclemente 7 months ago
-
-
#41 written by channelclemente 7 months ago
-
#42 written by channelclemente 7 months ago
An interesting summary of the new Obama Economic Plan.
http://www.businessinsider.com/obamas-plan-second-term-economy-jobs-election-2012–10
-
#43 written by channelclemente 7 months ago
-
#44 written by shortchain 7 months ago
-
#45 written by Valjiir 7 months ago
OK, so I side with Jill Stein 86%, POTUS 84%, Rocky Anderson 71%, and Mitt Romney (ACK!) 13%. I’m with 56% of Minnesotans and 61% of Americans. I breakdown like this: Science Issues — POTUS; Environment — Jill Stein; Healthcare — Gary Johnson (really?); Domestic - Jill Stein; Economy — POTUS; Foreign — Jill Stein; Social Issues — POTUS; and Immigration — POTUS
I wonder where the differences are? And who are Jill Stein and Rocky Anderson? I suppose I should Google them, huh?
-
#46 written by Armchair Warlord 7 months ago
-
#47 written by Valjiir 7 months ago
So, Jill Stein is the Green Party candidate for President, Rocky Anderson is the Justice Party candidate, and Gary Johnson, of course, is the Libertatian Party candidate. Who knew I was so green? I’m not even a Vulcan!
And I forgot, I’m 95% Democratic, 87% Green, 31% Libertarian and 3% Republican. Hmmm, have to find out what that 3% is all about.
-
#49 written by channelclemente 7 months ago
-
#50 written by PNE 7 months ago
I side with Obama 91% of the time, Jill Stein 77%, Rocky Anderson 70%, Gary Johnson 30%, Mitt Romney 21%, and Virgil Goode only 2%.
I side with Maine voters 56% of the time and with American voters 57% of the time. I am 88% Democratic, 68% Green, 16% Republican, and 6% Libertarian. No surprise on that last one, seeing as I am the ultimate anti-libertarian.
-
-
Here is a concise description of the 27-point plan for a second term that the Obama campaign just released.
-
@Chris… YIKES!!! indeed!
You, my dear friend, are a veritable fountain of fascinating info these days.
So, to summarize (as Shiloh used to say…)
Their October suprise… an offer from Donald Trump of $5 mil for our candidate to release his “college applications.” (I think you could safely offer $5 mil to anybody to do that. Who on this entire planet saves copies of their college application letters for 30 years?)
Our October surprise… unsealed court records showing their candidate committed perjury to gain money for himself and screw a woman out of her divorce settlement.
All in all, I like our chances on this one.
-
#54 written by DrFunguy 7 months ago
Yes Fili,
And its gaining some traction. Couldn’t happen to a nicer
borg, er, guy. -
#55 written by mostlyilurk 7 months ago
After watching the debate the other night, I have to wonder what the thought process is for those who support Mr. Romney because they believe that President Obama has been a failure. What’s the logic in voting for a person who has adopted policies that are the same as the president who, in your estimation, has failed?
-
88% Jill Stein (who I plan to vote for, so there ya go)
82% Barack Obama74% Rocky Anderson (former Salt Lake City mayor, political gadfly, the Harold Stassen for a new generation)7% Mitt RomneyWhat I don’t understand is how my 88% Green position is similar to 61% of American voters and yet I hear loud voices, over and over, proclaiming that “this is a center-right nation!” I’m even a 49% match with other residents of this almost-square, ruby-red state I call home. -
#60 written by mclever 7 months ago
-
#61 written by channelclemente 7 months ago
-
#62 written by channelclemente 7 months ago
-
#63 written by Max 7 months ago
-
#65 written by Max 7 months ago
cc,
In 2008, I gave a significant amount of financial support to the Obama campaign.
In 2012, $0.00.
And the campaign knows precisely why.
Now, I am the first to understand the difference between campaigning and governing. Been there too many times over the past 50 years. At the same time, doing things that do NOT win over moderates, and certainly not center-rights, while pissing off your base by those same things is politically stupid.
I repeat that: it’s politically stupid.
Worse, given the political cognizance of the David twins and many others in the campaign, the decisions made at the presidential and departmental level that have pissed off so many in the base, particularly when the national good is extremely marginal at best, reaps it rewards.
As Hippocrates said: “First, do no harm”.
-
-
#67 written by Max 7 months ago
You’ll have to do better than that, dc.
I have used the “when in doubt or question, vote against” argument multiple times of the years you’ve been alive. And the several variations thereof.
But I do not operate in a vacuum. Which is why the campaign knows precisely why they don’t have my financial support, AND they have known this for WELL over a year. They know that 90% of my issues have to do with the DoJ, and 10% have to do with DoD.
(Eg. The DoJ statements concerning CA and other states’ medical marijuana laws and federal enforcement actions, despite 2008 campaign statements. Then, within the past week, the DoJ statement concerning the passage of recreational marijuana use amendments/propositions in the three states.)
If the Southern Strategy for DoJ enforcement of bussing and desegregation worked 40 years ago. as with the DOMA, the low prioritization of drug laws could make a significant difference with a large percentage of the Obama base. To essentially piss in their eyes can make a significant difference in turnout on election day.
Other actions, including the treatment of Bradley Manning, also come into play.
Again: “First, do no harm.”.
-
I get that you disagree with the President’s policies on some important matters. Realistically, is it better to be pure and lose everything, or to make at least some progress in the right directions?
My take on it is that it’s better to get someone in office who can do the right thing on 90% of the things I care about, and to exert whatever pressure I can — while they are in office — on the other 10%. I’m never going to find anyone who is 100% of what I want 100% of the time. But moving in the right direction is a hell of a lot better than tear down everything I care about.
But that’s just me. In order to govern, you first have to win, and we live in a world in which there is nothing even close to perfect. Particularly in what could become a close race, to not support someone who is mostly right means you’re okay with someone who is completely wrong. And that’s not the way I think.
Abstention means you’re okay with the alternative. There is no other way to look at it.
-
-
-
#71 written by Rose 7 months ago
For those wondering who Rocky Anderson is. His election to mayor of Salt Lake City (twice) shows how relatively liberal that city is.
He wouldn’t have made dogcatcher in most parts of Utah, however.
-
#72 written by Max 7 months ago
Mono,
I left that argument out in my comments back at dc, though it is certainly true for the great crimson state of Texas. Stein or Johnson, either one.
It is also why dc’s last sentences (#68) are incorrect in at least 40 states. Meanwhile, I agree 100% with his two middle paragraphs. Which is why I would not encourage “protest” votes by voters in those swing states.
But a silent protest vote is meaningless. The reasons why MUST be communicated to the campaign. And in the case of a lame duck, final term, it then can give impetus towards working on the other 10%.
-
I understand the argument that in a state in which one of the two major candidates is a heavy favorite, a protest vote doesn’t hurt either candidate’s election chances. That is true in a practical sense. But its long-term results are less clear.
One hopes that such a protest vote advances one’s causes, because it expresses concern for a particular issue or set of issues. Unfortunately, most of our culture is not that subtle. The only real numbers that most people look at are the numbers for the major candidates. To use the current example, if Obama’s numbers slip, most Americans will assume it is because Obama (and, therefore, progressive policy) has become less popular.
We saw this in the health care debate. Many progressives were unhappy because Obamacare doesn’t go far enough. We wanted universal single-payer. But the polls showed either support or opposition, and the enormous number of people who opposed it because it wasn’t Medicare For All got lumped into the people who want insurance companies to rule the world and it was expressed as the percentage of people who support or oppose health care reform.
The long term impression then is that Americans want to go back to what we had before.
Votes for minor-party candidates — and subtle opinions about complex issues — are ignored. Going beyond the present election, a protest vote is a vote against the policies you intend to support, because it takes support (even symbolic support) away from the major candidate who is closest to those policies.
If neither major party is to your liking on particular issues, the way to advance those issues is to throw loud support behind someone who is closest and put pressure on them while they are in office to address those issues. Anything else falls prey to our culture’s tendency toward black-and-white-ism.
-
Unlike you, Max, I made a different choice. I gave as much as I was able to the Obama campaign. Now all I have left to give is my vote. I want to vote for the candidate that best represents my principles and philosophy.
I strongly believe that the rise of what is today a “minor” party will fundamentally transform American politics and break the partisanship and gridlock that seem to dominate current political discourse. That’s why I’m voting for Dr. Stein. I could be persuaded to vote for Governor Johnson as well.
Still, I’m a pragmatist, and in the 10 states (probably four — Ohio, Virginia, Ohio and Ohio) where the election is actually contested, I want to do some good. Unlike many Republicans believe, I’m not willing to commit voter fraud, so sending the Obama Victory Fund some buckage is the next best thing.
(Has anyone done a calculation of how much a vote is “worth”? That is, what size of contribution to a political campaign equals one vote? I bet the relationship is not linear, so that Adelson’s $1M does not get 1 million times as many votes as my $1.)
Maybe in my retirement I will move from purple state to purple state, knocking on doors and working GOTV for my favored candidate.
-
#76 written by Max 7 months ago
-
Monotreme, your solution seems to cut through the Gordian knot of political purism vs partisan practicality.
In a state in which taking one’s vote away from the better of two candidates won’t affect the outcome, a vote on principle will neither help nor hurt the immediate election.
But contributing to the candidate of the major party who is closest to your view helps both the short-term and long-term practical concerns.
I agree with you that we need at least three major parties. I’d be happier if we had four or five, and had a more parliamentary system. I don’t we’ll get there in our lifetimes however — particularly not for us old farts. I think it would take a major shift in national consciousness. One way or another, I think the Republican Party is going to have a major schism within the next decade, and that could be the impetus toward acceptance of additional parties.
-
Max, can you explain how we align with a majority of voters and yet Obama is barely polling 50% nationwide? I can’t.
(Actually, I can, if people are voting for the Republican “brand” mindlessly. But I’m sure there are alternative hypotheses, and I’d like to hear them. It would be important to get an rgbact or GROG datapoint for that analysis.) -
#79 written by shortchain 7 months ago
DC,
With only two parties, the political struggle becomes an eternal back-and-forth between tweedle-dee and tweedle-dum, who try to maneuver for the “middle ground”. The problem is that great wealth, as we have seen, allows that “middle ground” to be pulled one way or the other by mainstreaming radical views.By definition, those who have won the electoral lottery are less susceptible to pressure — it’s not going to do one iota of good to try and push Obama more to the left after he wins re-election (and, for our friends on the right, if you imagine that you can pull Romney more to the right — you need to cut back on your medications).
Historically, the way to pull the political landscape one way or the other is to split from the existing party structure, build support, and, with your base of support, induce one of the existing parties to subsume your policies — or simply supplant a party. That’s what happened to the Whigs. Teddy Rooseveldt and the populist movement of the late 19th century. To a great extent, FDR coöpted the great swell of socialism in the 30’s into the Democratic party (and largely eviscerated it along the way).
That’s what has happened to the Republican party in modern times. Once the party of the wealthy and the Bourgoisie, it’s now the party of right-wing religion, racism, and randroids. Whether the new structure of the Republican party is stable and capable of electoral success remains to be seen — whether it will continue its success or will wither away, to be replaced by something new (or maybe old, like the historical Republican party retaking power. But the economic imbalance currently going on in the country militates against a recovery — why should the immensely wealthy give up their new ability to control the narrative and frame the debate?)
You should know better, being from Minnesota — when the Democratic party in Minnesota, suffering from a hardening of the political arteries due to decades of electoral success, started running candidates like “Skip” Humphrey, whose only qualifications were a history of undeviating loyalty to the Democratic party, the party was shaken up (and, IMO, improved) by the appearance of two phenomena — Paul Wellstone and Jesse Ventura. Now it’s the Republican party in Minnesota which is saddled with political dinosaurs like Quist and Bachmann (whose sell-by-date has passed, although the idiots in her district may well send her back for another term of grandstanding while doing nothing for them).
No, if you want the political landscape to change, you won’t do it through unwavering support for a politician or party that has gained success through pursuit of a particular set of policies — it is the nature of many-headed beasts like political parties and corporations to strictly hew to the path that got them where they are.
If you want to change direction, find somebody going your way and join them, and convince as many people as possible to do the same.
-
#80 written by mclever 7 months ago
@DC
As long as we have a FPTP popularly elected President, our politics will converge towards a two-party system. If we could ht a reset button and start with five or more parties of relative equal strength and support, within two or three Presidential elections, we’ll have two major parties getting 90–95% of the vote and the others will be hangers-on. This is because we don’t have a parliamentary system where the Prime Minister is elected by the parliament. The quest for a majority of the popular vote is what will continually push us towards a two-party system. That doesn’t mean a third party can’t rise up and supplant one of the major two, but if such a third party rose, then I predict that within two Presidential elections, we would be back with two parties again, though the alignments (and names) of those parties will likely have shifted.
-
@mclever, yes. That’s why I said I’d prefer a parliamentary system. I suspect that was why the original writers of the Constitution didn’t have the President being popularly elected — they didn’t like the idea of political parties. I think we are seeing the wisdom of a parliamentary approach. (What does that say about “American Exceptionalism”?)
-
#82 written by channelclemente 7 months ago
mclever, dc,
I suspect the direct election of a President is more the issue when comparing the attributes of a Republic to that of a Parliamentary Democracy. If you read between the lines in the Federalist Papers, the issue of electors was more a matter of preservation of issues associated with owners of private property than political parties.
-
#83 written by Max 7 months ago
Actually, in the UK anyway, the PM is NOT “elected by the Parliament.
Each party has a Party Leader. If that party wins a majority, the Leader is PM by default. If there is a coalition of two (or more) parties required to make up a government, (usually) the Leader of the plurality party is the PM.
-
You must be logged in to post a comment. - Comment Feed for this Post
About dcpetterson (187 posts)
D. C. Petterson is a novelist and a software consultant in Minnesota who has been writing science fiction since the age of six. He is the author of A Melancholy Humour, Rune Song and Still Life. He lives with his wife, two dogs, two cats, and a lizard, and insists that grandchildren are the reward for having survived teenagers. When not writing stories or software, he plays guitar and piano, engages in political debate, and reads a lot of history and physics texts—for fun. Follow on Twitter @dcpetterson





Politicians always run toward their base in the primary and then shift to the middle in the general. But usually this shift is gradual and more or less skilfully managed, hinting at thoughtfulness, reconsideration and some kind of political “evolution.” The difference in Romney’s case is how nakedly calculated and shameless the shift has been. No slow change, no gradual softening, just a 180-degree turn presented with a blandly challenging, unapologetic “Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. So what?”
It insults the intelligence and seriousness of voters, and on some level I think the public senses the insult and will massively reject it. Deep down they are asking themselves, “Hang on, does this guy really think we’re that stupid?”
Romney’s mechanical and insincere responses on Monday night were clearly intended to mollify voters and avoid possible trouble. As such, they reminded me of something I couldn’t quite put my finger on and it nagged me all day yesterday. But as often happens, this morning when I woke up the answer was there.
Romney at the third debate reminded me of that scene from “Terms of Endearment,” when the aging, pot-bellied womanizer and former astronaut played by Jack Nicholson wakes up in bed with a sweet young thing who is clearly besotted with him. “Oh, Garrett,” she whispers, cuddling up to him, “I just LOVE you.”
Bleary-eyed and world-weary, obviously unable to recall the girl’s name but not relishing an emotional scene, Nicholson mutters, “Ditto, kiddo.”
That was Romney on Monday nght. “Ditto, kiddo.”
And he really thinks voters are going to buy that? What a schmuck.