The Born Identity
In the wake of the stunning election results on November 6th,
much ink has been spilled (and bandwidth filled) discussing macro-demographics and their impact on the national political landscape. While I find that topic fascinating, I am also deeply interested in the issue of micro-demographics like heredity and social constructs, and how they influence the political landscape of the individual. Can we really inherit our political leanings? Are they shaped by our environment … or do we all eventually shape our environments to suit our inborn beliefs?
Rose McDermott of Brown University has been doing research in this area based on studies of identical and fraternal twins and has coauthored a paper entitled “The Genetics of Politics” purporting to establish a definite genetic component to political attitudes. While McDermott stresses her studies can’t predict whether a certain individual will vote Democratic or Republican based on genetics, she feels they can predict with some reliability whether that person might have a conservative or liberal world view.
But the research never got picked up by political scientists or social scientists; it just kind of stayed in the genetics community until the last seven or eight years. These studies really show that a very large proportion of our political preferences along a broad spectrum of conservative to liberal come from hereditary components… We really do mean it in the broad spectrum of conservative to liberal, not in the restricted American sense of difference between Republicans and Democrats. And that doesn’t mean that you’re born with a particular attitude toward a particular thing like capital punishment… But the underlying propensity to be pretty conservative about protecting your in-group, to be protective about sex and reproductive issues, or to be quite liberal about them, appears to have this genetic foundation.
McDermott’s conclusions about genetic influences in political affiliation remain controversial, and there are all kinds of competing theories on what makes us vote the way we do. George Lakoff is a well-known, often-quoted American linguist and writer who has devoted himself in recent years to a study of the determining factors in political attitudes and outlooks. He feels the differences between conservatives and liberals are largely shaped by environment and stem from the individual’s acceptance of metaphor, specifically on the concept of family. (Conservatives, he says, view government from the “strict father” metaphor while liberals have internalized a “nurturing family” metaphor.) There are also various interesting tests that seek to match political views with different personality types. These are fun to play with but of course in that case the question remains moot because we are still a long way from knowing whether personality itself is God-given, genetically determined, or shaped by environmental influences.
Studying the county-by-county map of American voting patterns doesn’t shed much light on the topic, either. Consider all those blue counties on the edges of the country, and the vast sea of red in between. Do all those people in Middle America vote conservative just because they are surrounded by others who vote that way… or because they inherited the political leanings of their parents in their DNA package along with eye color and shoe size? Or do the ones who disagree with their families and neighbors migrate to the coastal areas to surround themselves with like-minded people, thus creating their own political environment?
All fascinating questions, but right now I’m more interested in the opinions and anecdotal reports from you the readers, and particularly, your answers to any or all of these:
- Do you share the politics of most of your family, or are you a political rebel? If the latter, do you remember what experiences or influences caused you to follow a different path… or were you just “born that way?”
- Do you select your friends partly based on their politics, or is that issue of no consequence to you?
- All things being equal, would you choose a house in a neighborhood where others mostly shared your political views over one where they favored the other party?
- Do we have any representatives of Carville/Matalin couples here? If so, how do you and your spouse manage this issue, (hopefully) without resorting to violence?
It occurs to me that since I’m asking the questions I should also be prepared to answer them, so here goes:
- I was born into a very conservative rural family and remained a staunch conservative myself until well into my 20s. But whether or not conservatism was my “born identity”, I began to change my attitudes after my children were born. It was hard to remain morally opposed to abortion when I found myself wondering how I would react if one of my own sweet daughters came home pregnant at 13. Or favoring capital punishment when I knew how I would feel about that sentence if my own beloved son killed somebody for whatever reason. I’m still pretty conservative on fiscal issues… things like easy welfare and wasteful expansion of government programs… but by now I’m very socially liberal. (On second thought it’s possible I did inherit my eventual outlook. Perhaps my mother held private liberal views that she kept wisely to herself. At any rate, I never heard her express a political opinion of any kind.)
- I have several friends I’ve known since childhood who are fiercely conservative… anti-immigrant, anti-gay, etc. I still love them a lot, but when they express these intolerant views I find that it’s just a bit harder to like them.
- I don’t care much about my neighbors’ political views (which I suspect are pretty conservative, too). I’m not all that social, and I make it a firm policy to avoid talking about politics in social settings.
- I can’t imagine living with an “Archie Bunker” guy. The one I’ve lived with for all these years is not “this way”, but he is opposed to gay marriage. Not the reality, just the word. He feels “marriage” refers to a man-woman relationship, and gay unions should go by some other term. Since he is almost as liberal as I am, this seems just to be some maniacally stubborn kind of semantic hair-splitting but it still drives me nuts, and has caused many heated discussions at our breakfast table over the years.
So those are my responses. All of yours will be much appreciated. Maybe by the end of our conversation, we can even cast some light on “the born identity”, nature versus nurture question… at least where politics is concerned!
Related articles
- Liberals, Conservatives, and the Abuse of Science (alittletourinyellow.wordpress.com)
- Researchers suggest your basic political leanings may be coded in your genes (pri.org)
- Republican Gene Identified (genotopia.scienceblog.com)
- [tt] NS 2889: Does your biology influence your vote? (stirling-westrup-tt.blogspot.com)
- Free will, Genes and Determinism (enlightenedscot.wordpress.com)

This entry was posted by filistro on November 10, 2012 at 3:00 am, and is filed under Uncategorized. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0.You can leave a response or trackback from your own site.
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1. I’m kind of a laboratory for filistro’s hypothesis.
1a. My mother’s side of the family is very conservative from a long way back. My maternal grandparents thought nothing of deploying the “n word” throughout their long lives, and they meant it. Their lines had been slaveowners before the Civil War and outlaws after (one gggreatuncle shot a man off a mule just because he was black). I was told they were “besieged by carpetbaggers” in their home in western Arkansas and moved to Texas to escape. In reality, they were pursued by Federal marshals and lived off the grid for 20–30 years until Jim Crow took hold and kept the heat off of them. A very common Texas story. My mother is very very conservative. She thinks George W. Bush got a bad shake and probably would plot herself closest to Michele Bachmann in the Republican abecedary.
1b. On my father’s side, they were a different kind of n’er do well. They walked from Maine to Wisconsin following the timber, then moved to Washington State around the turn of the century. My great-grandfather went up to Alaska (ostensibly) to look for gold while leaving my great-grandmother and her three sons at home. It was apparently a hellhole; they put to sea in their mid-teens and never looked back. All three were sailors. I am named after my gggrandfather who was a Union soldier in the Civil War and a drunkard who was kicked out of the Veterans’ Home in Orton, Washington 11 times in all. The Federal Government keeps very meticulous records of such things. My paternal grandmother was Pennsylvania Dutch and I think is where I get my liberalism from. My father has become quite liberal in his old age.
2. I enjoy having friends from across the political spectrum, as long as they don’t take politics so seriously that they threaten anyone. Just like here.
3. I live in the very Red state of Utah, and before that lived for 16 years in Mississippi. If I chose my neighborhood based on politics, I’d be pretty sad right now.
4.When I was married, my wife was even more liberal than I. I find dating conservatives very uncomfortable and honestly can’t imagine marrying one, which of course puts some crimps in my dating life here in Utah.
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@Treme… I find dating conservatives very uncomfortable and honestly can’t imagine marrying one,
I always wonder about the Matalin/Carville marriage. How do they do it? It has to be that they just look on politics as a sport, so it’s like rooting for the Yankees while your spouse is a Mets fan? But I don’t know how that analogy works either, because political views (to my mind at least) are all about the kind of person you are and your views on certain essentials… and those are non-negotiable.Though I think there’s also a lot of validity (as usual
) to what Chris says… It has been my experience that when you engage basically harmless
and decent people in a compelling way, they turn out to be okay.Politics is at its most divisive and angry when it’s Us vs. Them… but it’s just a lot harder to stay mad when it comes down to Me vs. You.
I think the best thing that could happen for America would be a lot more moving around and intermingling to disrupt those big, settled, hereditary blocs of red and blue that we see in the voting-pattern map.
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#4 written by channelclemente 6 months ago
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#5 written by channelclemente 6 months ago
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cc… you’re scaring me
Another thing that interests me… we always hear that people get more conservative as they grow older, but almost everybody I know started out conservative and has turned more liberal with age. This might just be a function of the very conservative area I grew up in and where I still live… (they had nowhere to go but left) but I rather suspect something else is at work here.
Did anybody here start out liberal and make a sharp right turn? Does anybody know anybody who did? Because honestly, I think those types exist mostly in right-wing mythology.
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#7 written by PNE 6 months ago
I guess I’ll put my two cents in:
1. My family consists mostly of Democrats right now, but it wasn’t always that way. My mother’s side of the family did basically consist of Democrats. They used to live on the South Side of Chicago (not far from Obama’s house there) and my maternal grandparents were both liberal professors. My grandmother was an environmental activist, and in that way my mother is following in her mother’s footsteps because she is a professor and an environmentalist. She is, and always was, a Democrat. My father’s side is more complex. My paternal grandfather used to be a Republican, but I’m not sure if he still is. My father is a true New England moderate: he’s economically moderate and socially libertarian. He used to be a Republican in the ‘80s, but the Republicans’ hard right turn on social issues alienated him, and he voted for Bill Clinton in 1992 and hasn’t turned back. He’s what you would call an NPR Republican. I share most of the views of my parents, but we disagree on a few issues. I’m more economically leftist than my father, and I support a stronger and more active government than he does. While he is libertarian on social issues, I am liberal on social issues, and there is a subtle difference. I agree with my mother on most issues.
The reason why I have these beliefs is that through my childhood, I developed a strong preference for order over chaos, and therefore I believe that everyone needs to be controlled, regulated, and reined in by something, and the only thing that can do that is the government. From this came the central tenet of my political beliefs: the idea that government is good.
2. I’ve had several conservative, Republican friends. I’ve also had some friends who were socialists and communists. At my college, I have a friend who opposes gay marriage, which of course is an uncomfortable position because Maine just voted to allow gay marriage. But we just don’t talk about it.
3. When choosing where to live, there are several other factors I’ll take into consideration before politics. Namely, climate and nature. One reason why I love Vermont is that is has an awesome climate, it is incredibly beautiful and has a lot of nature, and yes, it is very liberal.
4. I’m a college student, so obviously I can’t answer this one.
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On family political affiliation:
My brothers and I are all fairly progressive. I’m the middle brother, probably in politics as well as age. My parents were both liberals. My mom is still alive, in her 80s, and is getting more radically leftist as she ages.
She was the eldest of four children, the other three being boys. Two of them are still alive. The youngest is politically like my mom, the elder would make Rush Limbaugh look like a commie. Most of my cousins are devoutly Republican, and I chose that phrase carefully. They subscribe to the school of “This is my opinion — don’t tell me so-called facts, I don’t want to argue about it, and you’re not going to sway me.”
My dad’s parents were Salvation Army. If you don’t know what that is, count your blessings. One of his brothers moved to New Zealand many years ago, and we’ve rather lost track of him. The other, and his wife and kids, are very sweet people and I love them dearly. They are ultrareligious ultraconservatives.
If there are liberal and conservative genes, then my parents inherited the left ones, which must otherwise have been mostly dormant in both families.
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Being adopted, I have no roots ~ thank god!
ok, ok, my dad was not political and didn’t vote until ’92. He passed away ’93. I got a registration form, he filled it out and mailed. Got him an absentee ballot form. He filled out the ballot and mailed. Never said who he voted for.
My mom, although also not political, was a poll worker from 1975 to a couple years ago. One reason I’m happy Obama won is she despised Romney and would change the channel every time the shyster/charlatan appeared.
She’s Irish Catholic and voted for JFK in ’60 ~ go figure. She voted for Nixon in ’68 ~ I forgave her. My family, as a rule, never discusses politics. Although my cousin’s wife said to me she didn’t know anyone, including herself, who was gonna vote for Obama in Ohio. Well, she knows me and my mom and apparently there were a few other folk who put Obama over the top! Thank you Ohio …
I’m not familiar precisely w/exactly what I said, but I stand by what I said whatever it was.
Apologies to shyster/charlatans.
>
“Carville/Matalin”
As a poll worker my mom had several couples who were friends/neighbors who came in together and a few times the husband would mention, I canceled out her vote!
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#10 written by shortchain 6 months ago
@filistro,
How do they do it?
I don’t want to have to think about that.
My family history is a bit like Monotreme’s, as in they came from all over and every generation produced a black sheep or two, who, for various reasons (often legal or economic) couldn’t stay in the place they were born. The result of those generations of black sheep is yours truly. On my mother’s side they were John Birch Society in all but paying the dues. But my mother was a McGovern supporter. On my father’s side they were more conservative still (how conservative? They’d make today’s tea party look like commies). On the whole a pretty mixed bag.
I have a couple of brothers who are right-wing as they come. We get along by avoiding politics when we get together, which is rarely.
I was totally apolitical as a young person (too busy surviving to bother developing an opinion about politics), then a “radical” in college. Of course, “radical” back then meant “thinks the USA’s policy in Vietnam is asinine and self-defeating”. I think the same today about Afghanistan, so I haven’t “moderated”.
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#12 written by Max 6 months ago
1. Mother apolitical. Dad had me at a Goldwater rally for Halloween Night. We went to Wallace speeches. But he also sent a condolence telegram to Coretta S King that night in April.
2. Nope
3. Nope.
4. Not the case, although I HAVE dated several conservative women. Little Max has no political leanings, other than dressing left.
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#13 written by channelclemente 6 months ago
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@shortchain… I don’t want to have to think about that.
Oh dear. That made me LOL. (still chuckling..)
@PNE… I developed a strong preference for order over chaos, and therefore
I believe that everyone needs to be controlled, regulated, and
reined in by something, and the only thing that can do that is the
government. From this came the central tenet of my political
beliefs: the idea that government is good.I just LOVE having you here, PNE, because you are fearless and willing to say things like that. Most of us would probably agree to you to a great extent, but be reluctant to say so for fear of incoming. Good for you. You are truly a credit to your upbringing.
Re: the issue of growing more conservative/liberal as one ages (though I don’t know whether that argues for environmnetal influence or the triggering of some genetic timetable) I recall once we were discussing this and Mclever proposed a brilliant hypothesis (as Mac so often does…):
Maybe (Mac reasoned) seniors have actually moved left in their personal views from their youth, but still seem a lot more conservative than the current younger generation. IOW, they’ve become more liberal, but they started back in the 50’s from a point so far to the right that the shift isn’t all that evident compared to the general population.
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#17 written by Valjiir 6 months ago
Do you share the politics of most of your family, or are you a political rebel? If the latter, do you remember what experiences or influences caused you to follow a different path… or were you just “born that way?”
This is a hard one. My father was a Marine who fought in WWII in the Pacific (he was German, so he could not be assigned to the European Front — as a side note, he lied about his age to enlist right after Pearl Harbor). He was a strict but VERY loving father who never discussed politics (except for twice, which I’ll get to). My mother was (and is) very much a Republican, who used to complain bitterly that Nixon was hounded out of office. I remember her once bragging that she’d voted for Nixon every time he ran — at which point my father, from behind his newspaper, muttered, “And I countered it every time.” The only other time my father mentioned politics was when he remarked that he thought he’d vote for Jesse Jackson for President in 1984.
I’m a bleeding heart, tree-hugging Liberal who worked for Bobby Kennedy’s presidential campaign and marched in Chicago at the Democratic convention in 1968. My political sense was awakened by the Vietnam War and opposition to it. I never felt any sense of ‘rebelling’ politically. My older sister is as Democratic as I am, my younger is far more conservative, though neither of them got (or get) involved in politics. So.… I guess I was born this way?
Do you select your friends partly based on their politics, or is that issue of no consequence to you?
I have very few friends (well, okay, one that I actually see, and one who’s an ‘online’ friend) and they’re both pretty Liberal. I’m not sure I could be friends with someone who wasn’t at least willing to listen to my POV — and frankly, from what little interation I’ve had with Conservatives, they can be pretty dismissive of other POVs.
All things being equal, would you choose a house in a neighborhood where others mostly shared your political views over one where they favored the other party?
I”m very shy and social-phobic, so it doesn’t matter to me.
Do we have any representatives of Carville/Matalin couples here? If so, how do you and your spouse manage this issue, (hopefully) without resorting to violence?
Not here *grin*
BTW, regarding political types, I’m an INFJ, so it seems I’m on the money there
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@Val… I remember her once bragging that she’d voted for Nixon every time he
ran — at which point my father, from behind his newspaper, muttered,
“And I countered it every time.”What a great story. That really made me smile.
I wish some of our conservative bloggers would reply to this thread. So far we have quite a number of lefties who grew up in at least moderately conservative households, but no opposite numbers.
I think (though I’m not sure why) that a conservative kid in a liberal household woudl be a lot rarer. It would also be more interesting … most of the storyline on the old “Family Ties” show was based on that very situation, with Michael J. Fox’s character playing a buttoned-down Young Republican with parents who were very liberal.
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#19 written by channelclemente 6 months ago
If one is compelled to ‘high five’, I would suggest go to National Review, take their daily poll, and use that as motivation to persuade yourself that Obama’s arguments were effective and persuasive to around 50% of the population. Now rather than engaging in over-celebration or too much self congratulation, realize that this is a UNION and these people are not ‘the enemy’ or genetic throwbacks, but your fellow citizens.
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#20 written by channelclemente 6 months ago
An interesting rumination on the real battle that this election highlighted. The war on ignorance, willful and otherwise.
http://prospect.org/article/america-next-seat
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#22 written by PNE 6 months ago
@Valjiir and Filistro: About political types, I’m an ISTJ. ISTJs are pretty much evenly split between liberals and conservatives, and I can see how some ISTJs could take comfort in political conservatism. Not me, though. My personality may be relatively conservative (I’m not particularly sociable, I don’t mind being alone, I don’t and would never smoke, drink, or do drugs), but my politics certainly isn’t.
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@cc… Now rather than engaging in over-celebration or too much self
congratulation, realize that this is a UNION and these people are
not ‘the enemy’ or genetic throwbacks, but your fellow citizens.That is nornally my view, but the rightie websites are so offensive in the wake of this election that even though I’m a notorious softie, I’m finding it hard to be charitable right now.
Conservatives aren’t thinking about “union.” They are devoting all their enerey to blaming this lost election on their fellow citizens who are so lazy, greedy, stupid, wrongheaded, sexually licentious, unpatriotic and addicted to “free stuff” that they should not be allowed to vote at all. It’s really quite ugly.
I will be ready to take the high road again in a week or two… but right now I’m celebrating. No, scratch that.
I’m GLOATING.
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#24 written by PNE 6 months ago
@Filistro #21: My father believes that government should stay out of the whole abortion controversy, and that government should not define marriage at all. I think that government should actively accept same-sex marriages; my personal definition of marriage is “a union between two people who love each other”. Additionally, my father is less a fan of sin taxes and social engineering stuff like that than I am (I think sin taxes are an excellent idea). He’s not into government regulation as much as I am, and he doesn’t think that the government should actively discourage people from participating in activities that harm society. I think that the government should actively discourage people from participating in activities that harm society, because I view these activities as selfish, and to quote Spock, “The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.”
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#25 written by channelclemente 6 months ago
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#27 written by channelclemente 6 months ago
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#29 written by channelclemente 6 months ago
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#30 written by channelclemente 6 months ago
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#31 written by astrodude 6 months ago
I grew up in a very liberal family, although I’m not sure that politics were openly expressed that much (except for dismay when Reagan won in a landslide). My mother and sisters are still very much on the left (Kucinich is their idea of a good candidate, while Obama is probably too far to the right). I am much more centrist than they are, although still very much on the left on social issues. I’m just more willing to be pragmatic about the compromises that have to happen to get anything done (“the perfect is the enemy of the good”).
Interestingly, my wife comes from a very conservative family, but her politics are pretty much the same as mine. She and I get along great with her family, as long as politics don’t come up. In fact, her dad and my sister get along extremely well, although they are about as far apart on the political spectrum as two people can be.
While I do think that I could live in a mixed-politics neighborhood, I don’t think that I would be very happy being in Monotreme’s situation where the overwhelming majority had different opinions to mine. Also, I don’t think that I could ever date/marry someone with diametrically opposed politics, just because there is only so much skating around the issues that I could handle before things would blow up. -
@dude… I’m just more willing to be pragmatic about the compromises that
have to happen to get anything done (“the perfect is the enemy of
the good”).Me too… though (depite my frequent impatience) I do try hard to understand the intransigence of the absolutists on both sides who refuse ever to give an inch on anything. I think it stems from fear of the “slippery slope”… the idea that if they yield on even the tiniest point, everything will begin to slip away from them.
It’s fairly obvious the “fiscal cliff” can only be avoided by compromise on both sides, and I expect much wailing and rending of garments over it… but I’ll be very glad when it gets done nevertheless.
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#34 written by Valjiir 6 months ago
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#35 written by mclever 6 months ago
Well, I think the regulars here know that most of the rest of my family are quite conservative while I am something of a lone liberal, though there were some cracks in my family’s unified wall of conservativism that were revealed by this year’s election.
1. Until June of this year, I believed that my deceased paternal grandmother was the only other person in my family who could remotely be called “liberal.” She was very religiously conservative, evangelistic, and her charitable activities rivaled a saint’s. But, she was a Democrat on social policy, because, “Democrats try to help poor people.” (Her words.) She had no real opinion on fiscal policy, but I remember her worrying that, “That fool Reagan will get us into nuclear war.”
A bit of family history might help to illustrate the extent of entrenched conservatism. My paternal ancestors were among the earliest colonial settlers—independent go-it-yourselfers seeking religious asylum in the wilderness of the new world where they became pioneering farmers. (My paternal folks are mostly still farmers in Ohio.) My maternal ancestors are Daughters of the American Revolution, all the way down to their perfectly coiffed curls and shiny DAR pins, and they mostly married military men. My maternal grandfather is ex-Navy, stubborn, and libertarian-leaning conservative. Those roots have carry forward to the current generation of aunts and uncles who are all religious conservatives, many with prior military service, who cling to simpler days when being American meant white, working-class, with three kids, a dog, and apple pie warming on the windowsill. My cousins (save one) are largely cut from that same cloth.
I grew up in a small, mostly white, rural community. My family discussed politics at the dinner table, convinced that racism and discrimination ended in 1968. They taught me civic awareness and responsibility. When I was young, my mother was moderately conservative on both the fiscal and social parameters until she started listening to Rush Limbaugh and believing everything he said. My father has always been the sort of fiscal conservative who believed that everything he has in life has come because of his own hard work and intelligence, and that he’s never gotten any help from his father, so those people who can’t figure out how to get ahead are just lazy and stupid. He’s religious, but can sometimes be persuaded that morality and legality aren’t synonyms. My folks listen devotedly to Fox News and talk radio. Two of my three siblings landed in the same socio-political square, with the older of my brothers being even more evangelical-minded.
My youngest brother (freshly back from Afghanistan) shocked me by expressing positive views of Obama leading up to this election. I’ve discussed politics with him in the past, and as recently as two years ago I would have called him a creationist conservative. Due to his military service, he’s been relatively isolated from television media, so his views have developed more independently from my other siblings. During the past year, he’s undergone a transformation towards more moderate liberalism. (His independent-minded spouse might have something to do with that.) I’m still leery of discussing politics with him, but I suspect I won’t be the only pro-Obama voice at Thanksgiving dinner this year.
For me, I grew up thinking of myself as a conservative. I argued for conservative principles with my more liberal friends in high school, and I voted Republican in my first Presidential election. But I also remember when my views started to change. It began with having a roommate of another race, and seeing first hand the struggles that someone non-white faced even in the hypothetically non-racist north. With more exposure in college to people of other cultures and races, and many heated discussions where I clumsily said things that prompted them to “set me straight,” my conservative views began to soften. I didn’t fully make the transformation to liberal until I moved to Texas…
No, I don’t think I was “born that way,” though the situations of my birth certainly set me on a path towards conservatism. As the oldest, I was always the “good child” who obeyed my parents and stayed out of trouble. But, for all their conservatism, my parents also raised me to think for myself. They’re dismayed that I’ve defected to Democrat, but proud that I show independent thought, and they keep hoping I’ll “grow out of” my liberal views.
2. I select friends more on intelligence than politics. I like having well-informed friends who can discuss various issues, and I’m not afraid of disagreement but value civility. If a friend can’t handle talking about political differences without getting upset, then we’ll stop talking about that and find other things (Go Wildcats!/Go Hawkeyes!/Go Bears!) to enjoy together.
3. All things being equal, I tend to find a way to be happy wherever I land. However, I will freely admit that I enjoyed living in Southern California more than living in Texas. The primary reason was not because of politics, but because of how CA embraced its diversity. In TX, white people did white people things and other people did their things, and the twain rarely mixed. In CA, I enjoyed the opportunity for more interaction with different people from whom I could learn new things.
4. My spouse and I started out as liberal/conservative, but I converted, so no more problems.
I’m grateful that my spouse saw that potential for independent thought in me and didn’t give up while we were dating.With regard to the Myers-Briggs political alignments, I find it interesting that there are some patterns to the alignments, but I hesitate to read too much into that, partly because those types aren’t so hard-n-fast. For myself, I regularly flip between two different types depending on my mood when I take the test. (It was Monotreme who posted an article about how someone can express both extremes of the same dimension…) At one extreme, I’m right in line with my type-peers in political preference, but at the other extreme, I’m the opposite. Perhaps that’s a holdover of my conservative roots? Interesting to consider, but I always felt that I became more liberal as I engaged more of the side that the chart suggests should be more conservative…
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#36 written by mclever 6 months ago
@astrodude
You and your wife sound like a parallel of me and my spouse. My spouse and I come from different backgrounds but serendipitously ended up occupying the same liberal/conservative space. Like your family, my spouse’s family is more liberal than we are, but not quite to the extreme as yours, though my M-I-L would be perfectly OK with a nanny-state, while I’m the lone liberal from a cadre of conservatives.
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Val… great story, great symbol. Good for you!
One of the clues in today’s crossword was part of a quote from Steven Hawking: “Look up at the stars, and not down at your feet.”
I didn’t know he said that, but I find it quite profound. My other favorite quote from Hawking is this:
“You still have the question: why does the universe bother to exist?
If you like, you can define God to be the answer to that question.” -
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#40 written by mclever 6 months ago
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#41 written by dawolf 6 months ago
1) I would say I share the politics of my family. My mother was intensely political — she actually stood as an MEP for Labour, and my step-father was a Labour councillor. I don’t belong to a political party and consider Labour to have made many mistakes when in power. I could be Lib Dem but they’ve abandoned all their principles. I could never be Tory. My father has gone from being a hippy to being a bit conspiracy-theorist in his old age — I don’t like talking politics with him. I don’t remember my mum ever trying to dictate my politics (indeed, she was far to the left of me — I am center left) and I do not ascribe many of my viewpoints to her. But there was almost certainly some imprint, in thinking and caring about others for instance.
2) I don’t select my friends based on their politics, and similarly to the situation with my father I don’t really like talking politics with friends if we are strongly on opposite sides of the fence (fine otherwise).
3) I’ve never picked my housing based on politics.
4) I couldn’t marry someone who was right-wing.
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@wolf… I’ve always been curious about your interest (and obvious expertise) in American politics.
For me, it seems that in many ways what happens in Washington is actually more consequential to my life than what happens in Ottawa. Also I just enjoy the sweep and spectacle of Amerian politics. Canadian politics tend to be efficient but terribly boring.
But British politics… now there’s spectacle for you! I’m surprised you can bring yourself to look away, even briefly, from the colorful political drama that unfolds in front of you all the time.
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#45 written by channelclemente 6 months ago
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@cc…
Allen West’s loss is reported. Freeper responds:
To: LeoWindhorseRacist bastards. Keep the black man in his place.
15
posted on November-10–12 2:37:50 PM
by windcliff
]As I have observed in the past, this group suffers from a nutritional problem.
They have a severe irony deficiency.
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#47 written by dawolf 6 months ago
@filistro
Good question (or point). Basically UK politics is actually pretty boring. And the politicians are not that interesting.
The right wing isn’t very right. The left wing isn’t very left. The lib dems are swing, and incompetent. And most people are too uninvolved, incaring or apathetic to do much.
So for someone like myself, its kind of hard to muster much passion. In another scenario or in a few years I might try and become involved. But for the moment, the US political scene is much better viewing
Plus, I honestly believe that Obama is going to go down in history as a great President and politician. Interesting to watch history in the making.
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#48 written by ducqui 6 months ago
I’m probably a unique case study here, as I’m adopted, so really putting the nature vs nurture to the test.
My bio. family is more conservative, for sure. They’re working class people in Kalamazoo, Michigan. I can’t really clarify their beliefs much beyond that though, as we don’t keep much in touch and I’ve more gathered this information from their random Facebook postings.
My adoptive family (and I was adopted at birth) consider themselves independent. I should probably put this in quotations because they’ve voted Democrat for every president at least since Clinton’s first term. They have voted for local Republicans (though here in Chicago’s suburbs, they weren’t the candidates that would be as conservative as you’d see elsewhere). My father is in his 70s and opposed to gay marriage, though I think that’s more a product of his times. He’s also a bit of a secret racist, based on his random remarks at the dinner table, but according to him, he has voted for Obama both times. My mother is >10 years younger, and she is quite a bit more socially liberal. She’s also a schoolteacher, so always has been more pro-union that he has. My father would make comments about the teachers striking in Chicago and how he was against it, so they’re definitely on opposite ends of the spectrum there.
As for myself, I’m definitely on the progressive/liberal end of the spectrum. I’ve actually become more progressive as I’ve grown up. There was a time when I said as a teen that if it was between McCain and Hilary Clinton, that I didn’t know who exactly I’d vote for. Of course, that was before McCain’s sharp turn to the right to appease the fringe elements of the Republican party.
I wouldn’t say I choose friends based on political party. Here in Chicago, most of my friends are more progressive. When I lived in South Carolina for medical school, I didn’t have much choice as I was quite outnumbered.
In general, I’d probably prefer to live amongst like-minded individuals. I’m fairly used to being in the minority though, working with lots of medical professionals who tend to be more Right-wing. Ultimately, my decision on where to buy a house would look more toward the future for when I have children — such as safety and schools.
No, I dated one libertarian, but besides that everyone else that I have dated has been a Democrat/liberal.
Interesting post!
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#49 written by dawolf 6 months ago
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#50 written by MoldyMe 6 months ago
I wasn’t sure if I should bother posting, but my background/experience is far different from anyone who’s posted, and, yes, my family background definitely informs my politics.
I am a second generation American. My mother told me about pogroms in Russia (before she was born) and how that affected family members: an aunt watched her beautiful 18 year old daughter get raped and then killed by soldiers, “just because they could.” My father came to the US when he was 14, telling stories as I was growing up about sharpening a shovel on some rocks so he could avoid having to help dig. His older sister wanted him to do the same for her. He was about 5 or 6 and she was 9 or 10. Why were they digging a road? The Cossacks stood over them on horses.
Both were staunch Dems, and very liberal. My mother remembered the Red Scare in the 30s and Joe McCarthy in the 50s and was always concerned about my “out there.” She was a strong “women’s libber” long before the term was ever mentioned. My father was quieter, but always followed corporate takeovers and who owned what. They lived in southern CA in a very Republican area, wouldn’t buy some brands or shop at some stores because of corporation policies, and, when I was grown and living in WA State, they used to avoid stopping for anything other than gas in OR because at the time, there were anti-gay policies that had been passed in Salem.
I was an activist — lucky to be born late enough that I didn’t have to worry about the Red Scare or McCarthy — and was elected to minor local offices when I was unhappy about things and wanted to change them.
As for me, I could not be married to a conservative. Others have mentioned this, but shared values are very important. I lived in a very blue area in WA State, and it’s a lot of fun to have shared interests, but there is also that “echo effect,” that I don’t like so much. (One reason I do like Logarchism is because of posters like MR, rgb, and GROG. Many thoughtful comments on the left, yes, but the conservative posters also have valuable things to say.)
Oh, yes, and my kids: Oldest is passionate — and has been since a 9th grader — about immigration. Middle kid is also a strong liberal, and youngest identifies with no political party, but is way left of me, and has particularly strong feelings around privacy issues (as should we all).
Didn’t mean for this to be so long. Sorry.
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#51 written by mclever 6 months ago
@MoldyMe
That’s a wonderful story, and thank you for sharing it. I can’t imagine what your parents must have gone through to get here, and then to worry about the “Red Scare” and McCarthy. After all they endured, it’s no wonder your parents took their political views very seriously, which is something I admire, and which they clearly passed on to you.
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@ducqui… thanks for the post. You certainly are an interesting test case, with your birth and adoptive parents being from different parts of the political spectrum.
Just curious… what area of medicine will you be going into? I think I have a dim recollection of you mentioning family practise, or am I imagining that?
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@wolf… since no-one else seems to have mentioned it, is the next title in your article series going to be the Supremacy?
LOL!! The title, of course, was the work of Michael the Punmeister. You may have been the only one sharp enough to catch it. But I am definitely a Ludlum fan. (I just can’t see Matt Damon as Jason Bourne, though. Can’t do it, never could.)
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@MoldyMe… I agree with Mac. Yours was one of the most interesting biographical comments ever posted here.
And in additon to the fascinating historical and personal detail, I especially appreciated this: (One reason I do like Logarchism is because of posters like MR, rgb,
and GROG. Many thoughtful comments on the left, yes, but the
conservative posters also have valuable things to say.)I agree that our conservatives add a lot to the discussion, and I love having them here.
I’ve tried hard to woo other conservative voices over to join us, but it’s not easy. Most right-wing pople just don’t seem all that comfortable having conversations with left-leaning folks. They seem, as a group, generally more drawn to self-reinforcing feedback loops where their views don’t get challenged.
I don’t know if our righties here are more courageous than their peers, or confident enough in their opinions not to mind being challenged… or if they just really like us
Whatever the reason… like you, I’m very glad they’re here.
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Maureen Dowd is on fire this morning!
Some of my favorite excerpts:
IT makes sense that Mitt Romney and his
advisers are still gobsmacked by the fact that they’re not commandeering the West Wing.Team Romney has every reason to be shellshocked. Its candidate, after all, resoundingly won the election of the country he was wooing. Mitt Romney is the president of white male America.Maybe the group can retreat to a man cave in a Whiter House, with
mahogany paneling, brown leather Chesterfields, a moose head over the
fireplace, an elevator for the presidential limo, and one of those men’s
club signs on the phone that reads: “Telephone Tips: ‘Just Left,’ 25
cents; ‘On His Way,’ 50 cents; ‘Not here,’ $1; ‘Who?’ $5.”»»»»»
Romney and Tea Party loonies dismissed half the country as chattel and
moochers who did not belong in their “traditional” America. But the more
they insulted the president with birther cracks, the more they tried to
force chastity belts on women, and the more they made Hispanics, blacks
and gays feel like the help, the more these groups burned to prove
that, knitted together, they could give the dead-enders of white male
domination the boot.And shortchain will like this
:If 2008 was about exalting the One, 2012 was about the disenchanted
Democratic base deciding: “We are the Ones we’ve been waiting for.” Last time, Obama lifted up the base with his message of hope and change;
this time the base lifted up Obama, with the hope he will change. He
has not led the Obama army to leverage power, so now the army is leading
Obama. -
#56 written by shortchain 6 months ago
@filistro,
Yes, I do occasionally like a dose of MoDo in the morning.And I agree that Obama will have to be led, resisting all the way, to show some courage. He was far too timid in his first term, and it cost him a nearly-lost re-election. But I’m sure his advisors, such as Geithner, warned him against providing any ammunition to his opposition for a charge of being “uppity”. Perhaps he’s learned, by now, that they’ll make that charge no matter what he does, unless he makes of himself an even more complete door-mat.
By the way, I didn’t say if I have friends who are “conservative” — what I look for in friends is what I give in return: loyalty, honesty, companionship, and an occasional beer or glass of wine. None of that depends on political affiliation, and my friends span the gamut, from birthers to truthers. I take them as they are. I’ve reached that time in life when old friends start passing away. I notice that my younger friends, except for a contingent that developed their political outlook in the mid-80’s, are more liberal than the older ones, except for the few of us that were from my college days.
As for dating — well, it’s been a hell of a long time. But back then I had the same attitude toward women as I did to any other friends. Political affiliation isn’t that important.
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“I don’t know if our righties here are more courageous than their peers, or confident enough in their opinions not to mind being challenged… or if they just really like us”
Cons like being part of a group, just like most libs. Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way! Interesting Poblano broke out of the pac mentality because of his superior intellect and deducting skills and now Nate Silver is on track to make a small fortune.
shilohbuster’s continuing Nate Silver fetish aside.
Also interesting several other Daily Kos posters broke out of the pac to make a name for themselves. This doesn’t happen as much at con blogs from what I can tell as they are mostly lock-step lemmings.
This smallish blog has also developed a clique mentality that goes out of its way to try to keep the few cons who post here. Just the reality of the situation as said few cons have also become part of the clique. Truthfully, there are several entertaining lib posters here which attract the cons going back several years. Indeed, addictions can be quite powerful lol.
Yes Virginia, political blogs are much like life in general, go figure. But less harmful than real life thankfully. Is everyone enjoying my pedestrian/parochial psychological analysis? Rhetorical.
Bottom line, if this blog wasn’t somewhat entertaining and didn’t have interesting personalities, nobody would be here.
Elections come down to winners and losers: Winners ~ Obama, America, Nate Silver.
Losers ~ Con radio, con pundits, con political posters, Rep extreme political ideology, but not to worry as Obamacare will kick in soon to appease their depression.
>
Am I still on topic. btw, how does one acquire political power in America? Simple, organizing/organization which is how the Irish came to power politically ie unions/elections.
Latinos seem to following the same path, go figure. hmm, liberal evolution. Republicans, be afraid, be very afraid!
Happy Veterans Day !!! to the men and women who keep our country safe and free!
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#58 written by ducqui 6 months ago
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ducqui… I think I probably recalled your interest in family practise because I approve so heartily.
I think one of the things this world needs is more family dotors.I know there’s lots of money to be made in esoteric medical specialities, but still.…
Recently a friend told me about her sister in New York who had surgery at a big city hospital to relieve her carpal tunnel syndrome. When the condition developed in her other wrist she went back to the same doctor but he couldn’t take her as patient. Why not? Because he only works on right wrists!
That, to me, epitomizes just how highly specialized and impersonal medical care has become in lots of cases.
Family doctors do so much more than simply dispensing medicine. They are often the first to recognize things like child abuse, spousal violence, addiction and clinical depression. They are psychologists, guides, advisors and comforters. I think it’s wonderful career path, and probably a lot more emotionally rewarding in the long run than “just working on right wrists.”
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My family is all over the map. It’s a complicated messy family. The long gone matriarch was an old school ward Democrat who admired Mayor Curley.
She was an immigrants kid from County Cork.
My mothers family were also old school ward Democrats. I have a signed invitation to Jack Kennedy’s Inaugural in my office and look out the widow at a landscape where his political life began.
But as many relatives are opportunistic republicans. My old man wavered between one and the other over his days but up here, there was never much striking difference between one party and the other. Screeching wingnut tea party critters aren’t much liked by anyone.
And keep in mind, there is drift which argues for environment. The early settlers of eastern Montana were conned into moving there by rail road promotion scams and started out as Bryan Era Progressives but drifted toward a fundamentalist outlook, the few who remained.
Maybe much turns on how much one sees the basic work of life as a collectivist or individual endeavor.
I’ve also witnessed this drift first hand. I worked as a traffic flagger for a construction job when I lived in Seattle.
I had to get a string of dump trucks safely into their docking zone on a moderately busy intersection and got to chat with the drivers over the 6 months it took.
One old guy claimed to be a staunch conservative and would annoy the other drivers who belonged to the Drunk Mess party. But I liked him and was up front about my own leftiness.
But I wasn’t in his face about it nor was he much in mine. We chatted about bird watching and I commiserated about his miserable marriage. Eventually he came to decide that “W” was a quasi criminal and he had been duped.
I never gloated, it was just one less thing to care about. It has been my experience that when you engage basically harmless and decent people in a compelling way, they turn out to be okay.